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#2066308 - 04/18/13 12:40 AM Re: Notice Re: Dorothy Taubman [Re: Louis Podesta]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Oh and as of today, the Times published a nice but short article about Dorothy in the music section. Here's the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/17/arts/m...uries.html?_r=0
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2066390 - 04/18/13 07:00 AM Re: Notice Re: Dorothy Taubman [Re: laguna_greg]
HNB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg

"Finally, as an example of a whole body picture approach to this school of piano technique, which is why I assume we are talking about this in the first place, I leave you with a link from www.pianotechnique.org. This is a chapter by chapter review of Thomas Mark's book."

Louis, you did not really put this in as a valid comparison, did you? That Marks guy gets almost all the anatomy and physiology wrong in his (self-published) book, and in his rather nasty and obviously competitive (and ignorant) critique of Dorothy's work. Not to mention that, as far as I can make out, he has had no good clinical outcomes working with injured people documented anywhere, nor has he had his work corroborated by researchers, physical therapists or doctors. Dorothy had hundreds. So as far as I'm concerned, that "critique" can't possibly be taken seriously if you know anything about the subject at all.

Note that the page Louis linked to, as well as the nasty critique of Taubman and the rest of the shamelessly self-promoting material on www.pianotechnique.org, is apparently written by Alan Fraser, NOT by Thomas Mark.

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#2066399 - 04/18/13 07:27 AM Re: Notice Re: Dorothy Taubman [Re: Derulux]
jdw Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 1007
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: jdw
Funny, now that I think of it, someone was criticizing Golandsky's notice in another thread for what they thought was excessive praise of Taubman. I guess you can't please everybody!


What thread was that? Now that you mention it, I do remember reading it..


It was the "Dorothy Taubman Died Today" thread. But he retracted and said something nice about her, given the circumstances.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2066576 - 04/18/13 02:19 PM Re: Notice Re: Dorothy Taubman [Re: HNB]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
"Note that the page Louis linked to, as well as the nasty critique of Taubman and the rest of the shamelessly self-promoting material on www.pianotechnique.org, is apparently written by Alan Fraser, NOT by Thomas Mark."

Actually, I was talking about the site below. My mistake. Have you guys seen it? The URL is almost exactly the same. It's unsigned, with no contact names on the site other than the web master, and appears to be based in Serbia:

http://reviews.pianotechnique.org/

I'm not sure Alan didn't actually write this "review" anyway. The site is linked on his own page a bunch, and so is the conference in Serbia where these people probably all met. Alan also seems to be sympathetic to that viewpoint. And the similarities in URLs is suspicious. Looks like a hatchet job to me!

The main problem I have with most of these people is that all they are doing is bashing Dorothy while trying to jump on her bandwagon. They've borrowed what they like from her without understanding any of it, and then directly or indirectly call her a quack. Then they try to make a detailed, "anatomical" analysis of the movements the upper extremities make, yet they are not science or medical people and make a bunch of the same old mistakes both about function and form. Some of this stuff is reviewed by doctors or PTs, yet I can't imagine the reviewers read it closely.

Re Matthay: Both Dorothy and Edna were/are very open in their writings, lectures and masterclasses about Dorothy's antecedents. Dorothy quoted Matthay all the time about scale rotation, and pointed out specifically where his conclusions and practical application were wrong. Her first inspiration was actually Ortmann, and she also figured out where he came to the wrong conclusions, notably concerning fast octaves. Quite brilliant, really, and irrefutable.

Cheers!


Edited by laguna_greg (04/18/13 03:15 PM)
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2066582 - 04/18/13 02:33 PM Re: Notice Re: Dorothy Taubman [Re: HNB]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 745
Thank you for the clarification "HNB." I really expected more from a man (laguna_greg)whose supposed expertise is rehabilation of the upper torso.

For starters, the man's name is Dr. Mark, and not "Marks." Second, his handbook and new book are both published by GIA publishing, which is not a vanity publishing house.

Next, I have personally talked with many a piano department head, and all of them spoke highly of Dr. Mark's book, and also recommmend it to their students.

I also had a chiropractor friend of mine read the book for anatomical inaccuracies, and she found none. laguna_greg has not read the book!

And, I emailed Thomas Mark on the Friday following Dorothy Taubman's death, and as one her former practice coaches, he emailed me right back and expressed heartfelt admiration for all she had taught him.

Finally, a five star rating from Amazon.com with 37 reviews over ten years time is not exactly chopped liver laguna_greg!

Oh, and I almost forgot: even though I do not agree with many of his teachings, Alan Fraser is considered by many to be one of the top piano technique teachers in the world.

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#2066613 - 04/18/13 03:35 PM Re: Notice Re: Dorothy Taubman [Re: Louis Podesta]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Louis,

Please believe me. You are entitled to like who and what you like. But then again, so am I.

A 5-star review on amazon means very little, considering the state of "reviews" these days. You ought to know that. Many of them bribed their wives and mothers to write most of them. Besides, 37 reviews is not as many as the Harry Potter DVDs. It would be more impressive if they had hit a bestseller list somewhere. They haven't.

I am unimpressed with world-wide acclaim, if you haven't noticed. The "world" has been wrong about celebrated figures before. When I read about great clinical outcomes in JAMA, or hear about them at a conference, or get invited to consult on a case with their patients, or insurance companies start paying for their interventions, (or hear really wonderful playing from almost every student in their studio) I'll believe it.

And yes, you are preaching to the choir. I was a student at the Taubman Institute off and on from 1983 to 1994. I played in Dorothy's master class, and I was a "practice assistant" later. I've been working clinically with injured people ever since I finished graduate school. And since you brought it up, you can check out my snazzy publications and research list on linkedin:

http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=120236973&trk=tab_pro

...and after all that, I remain convinced that most, not all, of these people still do not know what they are talking about, no matter who they are or where they teach.

What? You didn't expect to get an argument?


Edited by laguna_greg (04/18/13 03:57 PM)
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2066853 - 04/19/13 01:46 AM Re: Notice Re: Dorothy Taubman [Re: laguna_greg]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 961
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
...and after all that, I remain convinced that most, not all, of these people still do not know what they are talking about, no matter who they are or where they teach.
What? You didn't expect to get an argument?
Not from me. +1!

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#2067803 - 04/20/13 09:58 PM Re: Notice Re: Dorothy Taubman [Re: laguna_greg]
HNB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Actually, I was talking about the site below. My mistake. Have you guys seen it? The URL is almost exactly the same. It's unsigned, with no contact names on the site other than the web master, and appears to be based in Serbia:

http://reviews.pianotechnique.org/

I'm not sure Alan didn't actually write this "review" anyway. The site is linked on his own page a bunch, and so is the conference in Serbia where these people probably all met. Alan also seems to be sympathetic to that viewpoint. And the similarities in URLs is suspicious. Looks like a hatchet job to me!

Yep, it's all part of the pianotechnique.org domain, and despite what it says about being compiled by a "group of concerned pianists and pedagogues", it's pretty clear to me that it's mostly Fraser's work. The reviews repeat verbatim some of the jokes and phrases from his lectures... and check out which technique is given the highest rating and most glowing review - that's right, Alan Fraser's.

Whether or not he's one of the most respected technique teachers, he loses all credibility to me with these tactics.

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#2068646 - 04/22/13 12:49 PM Re: Notice Re: Dorothy Taubman [Re: Louis Podesta]
Jorge Andrade Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/13
Posts: 65
I copied this straight from the front page at pianotechnique.org, I guess we can assure, without a shadow of a doubt, that Alan is the one that created and maintains the site:

Welcome to
Piano Technique.org
Your best online piano technique resource base
… created and developed by Canadian pianist Alan Fraser

NEWS FLASH: The Alan Fraser Summer Piano Institute @ Smith College June 19-25 2011

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