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#2065816 - 04/17/13 02:10 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: AZNpiano]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Lack of polish = poor discipline = lack of talent = lack of potential.

Wrong. Lack of polish = poor discipline, yes, but talent and discipline are two different things. You can't say that poor discipline means a lack of innate talent/potential.
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#2065826 - 04/17/13 02:28 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5454
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Lack of polish = poor discipline = lack of talent = lack of potential.

Wrong. Lack of polish = poor discipline, yes, but talent and discipline are two different things. You can't say that poor discipline means a lack of innate talent/potential.

Perhaps I oversimplified things.

Lack of polish = bad student

Is that better?
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#2065905 - 04/17/13 08:17 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Aug6]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
I guess. grin But if they have talent, they can, with work, become a good student.
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Polyphonist

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#2065916 - 04/17/13 08:53 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11685
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I guess. grin But if they have talent, they can, with work, become a good student.


But they have to want it, and that is not something you really can change in someone. All a teacher can do is try to inspire and encourage, but I have had and known several such students. They don't know how to work hard and some of them, when you try to get them to work through something will completely shut down because they're used to things being easy.

I think the best thing to do is to give such students a dose of reality: that even the most talented pianists in the world have to practice very hard for many hours a day - and they're more talented than they are! Have you had this student participate in competitions? Let them see what others around them are capable of and get some feedback from judges and perhaps it will sink in.
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#2065962 - 04/17/13 10:47 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Morodiene]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
...and they're more talented than they are!

How do you know? grin
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Polyphonist

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#2066078 - 04/17/13 04:04 PM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Morodiene]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5454
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
I think the best thing to do is to give such students a dose of reality: that even the most talented pianists in the world have to practice very hard for many hours a day - and they're more talented than they are! Have you had this student participate in competitions? Let them see what others around them are capable of and get some feedback from judges and perhaps it will sink in.

That's precisely what I do.
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#2066098 - 04/17/13 04:34 PM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 424
Loc: Vancouver BC
I guess the things that can stop a student's progress includes:

1. Can't tell the differences from good and bad.
2. Didn't notice the differences.
3. Didn't care about the differences.

The first is about the capability, possibly doesn't apply to this student.

For the second point, maybe ask the student to make a recording and make him listen to his playing? Sometime people just don't realize how bad it was until they listen to their own playing.

The third one is about motivation. If the student is lack of intrinsic motivation to get to the next step, maybe, just like what was suggested, to get some external motivations like enter him into exams and completions?

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#2066405 - 04/18/13 07:34 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: The Monkeys]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3187
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys


1. Can't tell the differences from good and bad.
2. Didn't notice the differences.
3. Didn't care about the differences.



I wonder if people aren't judging this child too harshly, on the basis of limited information.

The OP says this middle schooler sightreads well, and fakes well, in some interesting repertoire.

Faking well requires some sense of style and theory, whether intuitive or intellectualized. Sightreading well takes some work also.

This might not be a lazy child, just one who's putting in effort in a different direction than the teacher wants.

Unless the child is heading for a conservatory lifestyle soon, maybe the path he's chosen is right for him. Could he be doing this well, if he weren't motivated to practice, and enjoying it? Is it really necessary to prove to him how bad he is, as is being suggested?
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#2066414 - 04/18/13 07:54 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7343
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
...and they're more talented than they are!

How do you know? grin

Generally speaking, if they're skating, much of their talent remains hidden, both to them and the population at large.
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#2066439 - 04/18/13 08:43 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11685
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
...and they're more talented than they are!

How do you know? grin


Well, I know my students and I know what qualities make them talented, and I've heard very talented students play over the years. So I have an idea of what degrees of talent are available. Of course, I would not say that to a student who *is* that talented. Then I'd just point out that others who are as talented as they are do much better because they add *work* to the equation. Without work, talent counts for nothing.
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#2066546 - 04/18/13 01:11 PM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: TimR]
childofparadise2002 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/04
Posts: 542
Originally Posted By: TimR

I wonder if people aren't judging this child too harshly, on the basis of limited information.



Completely agree. There are so many reasons why a middle schooler is not working as hard as he could on piano study: interest in the subject, interest in the particular tasks, time management, study skills (middle schoolers still have a long way to go to build study skills), teacher-student relationship, aesthetic preferences, etc. ,etc. The best way to go about this is always to communicate with the student directly (the student is old enough) and figure out what are the things the teacher doesn't know. There is no need for anyone else to put judgments down. How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

A doctor gives every patient aspirin, and a third of the patients get better, a third get worse, and a third feel no effect at all. When someone asks the doctor about the third that get worse, the doctor shakes his head and says: "those are bad patients, bad patients. What can a good doctor do with a bad patient?"

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#2066580 - 04/18/13 02:31 PM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: childofparadise2002]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5454
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

I was. And even back then I knew I was a more competent musician than my piano teacher.

Of course we are just making conjectures here based on OP's limited information. It's perfectly normal to jump to incorrect conclusions or making false judgments; that's just the nature of a forum like this.
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#2066786 - 04/18/13 10:13 PM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: AZNpiano]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

I was. And even back then I knew I was a more competent musician than my piano teacher.

Seems a little arrogant for an anonymous Internet forum where nothing can be proved. What repertoire did you play at 12?
_________________________
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Polyphonist

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#2066807 - 04/18/13 11:13 PM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5454
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

I was. And even back then I knew I was a more competent musician than my piano teacher.

Seems a little arrogant for an anonymous Internet forum where nothing can be proved. What repertoire did you play at 12?

Not really arrogant. Just facts. It's not even an opinion.
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#2066822 - 04/18/13 11:57 PM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: AZNpiano]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

I was. And even back then I knew I was a more competent musician than my piano teacher.

Seems a little arrogant for an anonymous Internet forum where nothing can be proved. What repertoire did you play at 12?

Not really arrogant. Just facts. It's not even an opinion.

Even more arrogant...

I repeat: what repertoire were you playing at 12?
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Polyphonist

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#2066824 - 04/19/13 12:02 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: AZNpiano]
Barb860 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 1646
Loc: northern California
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

I was. And even back then I knew I was a more competent musician than my piano teacher.

Of course we are just making conjectures here based on OP's limited information. It's perfectly normal to jump to incorrect conclusions or making false judgments; that's just the nature of a forum like this.


This is not arrogant at all. We know students like AZN was; dedicated, hard workers who went on to pursue music as a career. Serious students.
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Piano Teacher

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#2066827 - 04/19/13 12:13 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Barb860]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Barb860
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

I was. And even back then I knew I was a more competent musician than my piano teacher.

Of course we are just making conjectures here based on OP's limited information. It's perfectly normal to jump to incorrect conclusions or making false judgments; that's just the nature of a forum like this.


This is not arrogant at all. We know students like AZN was; dedicated, hard workers who went on to pursue music as a career. Serious students.

You know nothing about him. How do you know he's telling the truth?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2066829 - 04/19/13 12:15 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Aug6]
Minniemay Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
I know.
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#2066838 - 04/19/13 12:39 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5454
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Even more arrogant...

I repeat: what repertoire were you playing at 12?


smokin cursing
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#2066842 - 04/19/13 12:50 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Barb860]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5454
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Barb860
This is not arrogant at all. We know students like AZN was; dedicated, hard workers who went on to pursue music as a career. Serious students.

Thank you, Barb. I appreciate it.
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Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#2066850 - 04/19/13 01:32 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5240
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Barb860
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

I was. And even back then I knew I was a more competent musician than my piano teacher.

Of course we are just making conjectures here based on OP's limited information. It's perfectly normal to jump to incorrect conclusions or making false judgments; that's just the nature of a forum like this.


This is not arrogant at all. We know students like AZN was; dedicated, hard workers who went on to pursue music as a career. Serious students.

You know nothing about him. How do you know he's telling the truth?
Hem...

I also know. I've seen AZN, seen his students and know what he's capable of! A wonderful teacher and a great piano performer as well!

I can only think that he was a great straight AAAAAAA student! wink
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#2066857 - 04/19/13 01:51 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Aug6]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
Notice I have made no accusations, only expressed skepticism.

For the nth time, AZNpiano, what repertoire were you playing at 12...
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Polyphonist

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#2066859 - 04/19/13 01:54 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5917
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Barb860
This is not arrogant at all. We know students like AZN was; dedicated, hard workers who went on to pursue music as a career. Serious students.
You know nothing about him. How do you know he's telling the truth?
I know more about him than I do about you, certainly. I've been reading his (consistent) posts for over 5 years, and heard his students play. As for being more musically competent than one's teacher, unfortunately most of us will have come across teachers that would fit into this scenario, even with a 12-year-old student.
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#2066863 - 04/19/13 02:02 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Aug6]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5240
Loc: Europe
I think that the word 'arrogant' and 'arrogance' has a rather negative feeling! wink

But in any case your question is bizarre since it's not accomplishing anything. For example, I can tell you that at the age of 14 or 15 I was playing works from Bertini and not even the Bach inventions, or something like that. An easy Beethoven sonat(ina) in G major and that was about it. I was also composing like nuts!

And eventually I'm the guy you see now (whatever you may think).

So, it doesn't mean much to know what AZN was playing at the age of 12... :-/ None whatsoever I think.
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#2066877 - 04/19/13 02:48 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Nikolas]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5454
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I also know. I've seen AZN, seen his students and know what he's capable of! A wonderful teacher and a great piano performer as well!

I can only think that he was a great straight AAAAAAA student! wink

Gee, you're psychic! f

Thanks for your kind words and support.
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#2066881 - 04/19/13 02:57 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Aug6]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
I can see it's useless to continue this discussion, so have it your way.
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Polyphonist

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#2066894 - 04/19/13 03:54 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Aug6]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5240
Loc: Europe
Polyphonist: I still don't understand the reason for your question... Age and what one is able to perform is not exactly relevant, since one may be a late starter. Or even worst have an awful teacher. Yet the development is what matters.

Someone claiming that they were great students doesn't seem really arrogant to me. It's not like AZN claimed that he's won great contests and that he's better than Horowitz or something...
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#2066895 - 04/19/13 03:56 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Polyphonist]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4776
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

I was. And even back then I knew I was a more competent musician than my piano teacher.

Seems a little arrogant for an anonymous Internet forum where nothing can be proved. What repertoire did you play at 12?

I've heard his students play. I would wager that he plays quite well based on that track-record. And people who play and teach that well usually were very talented at age 12.

Which most piano teachers are not...

I'm not going to challenge him. But hey, that's just me...

If you want to talk about arrogant, I would suggest you look in the mirror.

You are very good at one liners, love to carve people up. I was stupid enough to try to have a private conversation with you. I shared some info about myself. When I asked you for something, you suggested that I am "aggressive".

That's why I dropped out of the topic and have never talked to you again.

What repertoire did you play at 12? What do you have to offer about yourself?

Nothing. Seems to me that given the zero information you, the great Polyphonist have given us about your life, you would be a bit more careful about labeling other people as "arrogant".

AZN is one of the good guys around here.

Why don't you give him a break?
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Piano Teacher

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#2066978 - 04/19/13 08:42 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: Aug6]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
Seems like I've made the mistake of respecting Gary up until this point. Now, it seems like he's just interested in using "logic" to make me look like a jerk.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2067020 - 04/19/13 09:59 AM Re: Talented student who doesn't practice [Re: AZNpiano]
childofparadise2002 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/04
Posts: 542
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: childofparadise2002
How many of the adults here were perfect students when they were in middle school?

I was. And even back then I knew I was a more competent musician than my piano teacher.

Of course we are just making conjectures here based on OP's limited information. It's perfectly normal to jump to incorrect conclusions or making false judgments; that's just the nature of a forum like this.


The nature of a forum is determined by the people on the forum. If people refrain from jumping to conclusions and putting labels on someone who they don't know about, the nature of the forum will be very different from a place where people are quick to make judgments,

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