Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#2066799 - 04/18/13 10:38 PM Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already??
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 500

Some people in the recitals are just too darn good. They're not even remotely "beginner" any more.

So, can we just vote them out so the whole enterprise isn't as intimidating as it appears to be for the true beginners?

OK, ok... I'm kidding... sorta. The Subject line was just a cheap ploy to get people to click on the topic.

Here's what I'm actually suggesting:

Everyone says they want more "true beginners" to participate, right? But at the same time, everyone seems so, well, OCD & competitive about getting the perfect performance recorded. Hearing about the pieces being prepared by veterans, going back and listening to prior recitals, it's hard not to feel unworthy when contemplating a first time submission.

I think we could have our cake and eat it too though, by creating a "Senior Circuit" of sorts for those that have moved on from being beginners, but we just can't seem to get rid of them nevertheless smile (who would want to leave after all?!)

Here's a rough outline of how I'm imagining it would work:

1) Nothing changes in the recital submission process, except that those who participate also have the right to participate in a sort of "kangaroo court" regarding who gets voted into the ABFQR Hall of Fame. This would occur a couple weeks or a month after the recital... There has to be enough time allowed for lots of speculation, informal nominations, falsely modest "guys -- I'm really not all that good" banter, and so on.

2) When the next recital rolls around, the HoF folks go to the back of the line. Everyone submits as they normally do, and they get posted in chronological order, except the cream of the crop (based on prior recital votes) goes at the end.

3) I'd even push it one step further... Why not put all the rookies at the front? If we want them to participate, why not showcase them?


Basically, it would be chronological order of submission within each group:

I) Rookies
II) Veterans
III) Hall of Famers


So... my thoughts on advantages of this approach, or some variant that I'm hoping will be debated below:

a) It would be fun.
b) Getting kicked to the back of the recital would be an honor.
c) The recital builds to the most seasoned performers (more or less) at the end.
d) Encourages new participants by highlighting their submissions first.
e) Encourages participation overall. Not any Tom, Dick, or Harry can vote -- you have to submit to the recital!

The whole point would be to keep it light-hearted. After all, nobody cares all that much where they are in the order today, and that shouldn't change.

I hope that people like this as a general concept... The one aspect that I really don't know about is how disruptive this would be to Monica's well-oiled process. But if the idea has merit, maybe something could be figured out to make administering it not too terribly onerous.

Thoughts??


P.S. If you can rebuild and/or tune your own piano, or play Brahms to near perfection while tipsy, you already have my vote smile
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

Top
(ads P/S)

Sauter Pianos

#2066810 - 04/18/13 11:21 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Sand Tiger Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 993
Loc: Southern California
I vote for simple. It is a huge task to organize the recital as is. Adding more work is a very bad idea. For the last recital there were about six people with one year experience, and most of those were way advanced for one year (eg: completing book two already when the average devout beginner is just finishing book one).

Changing all the rules as suggested might double that, maybe triple it to 18 novice participants, and about double or triple the work too. For this reason, I vote thumbs down on the proposal. I see it as a ton of extra work to coax a few more beginners to upload.

All a beginner needs to do, is do their best. They will only get praise from the forum. They will produce a useful landmark on their beginner journey. Stop over thinking it. Record and upload.

I see this proposal as being mostly about ego and comparisons. Don't worry about what others are doing, or if they consider themselves a beginner or not. It is clear enough from the quality of the recording and the brief biographical info given, who is who and what is what. If old timers on this forum want to upload here, and have their friends and others listen I see no harm in it.

A better idea might be a true beginners thread, where only those that have no prior musical experience and less than 500 hours of practice time would be the loose guidelines for those sharing their music. This would be no extra work, with 80% of the benefits.

/edit do add: voting is a bad idea. The proposal says light hearted, but some folks are mean, and some folks are sensitive. There will be hurt feelings and bruised egos with any public vote, that will be much more damaging to the community than any potential benefits. A secret vote doubles the work again, and still means many hurt feelings.


Edited by Sand Tiger (04/18/13 11:38 PM)
_________________________
my piano uploads

Top
#2066814 - 04/18/13 11:28 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5450
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
I think Adult Beginner is a state of mind, not a technical level smile

We're all in this together, and I'm still a beginner at lots of things. Some folks are just shyer than others.

Besides, I think who is "better" is so entirely subjective as to be not votable on laugh I just don't have much I can say about 99% of the classical, and certainly wouldn't vote one way or the other on anyone's skill. And the genres are so wildly different - how, really, can one compare me with Andy Platt (hi, Andy!)?

Do I think some people are way better than I am? Why, yes, I do smile But I'm not willing to put it to a vote, even if "winning" is supposed to be a good thing.

I *am* willing to reiterate that everyone can submit a piece - it's not a contest, it's a picture of where you are now in your piano journey. I do the best I can, and have never put in a perfect piece. We've had people who've been playing as short a time as a couple of weeks submit. But aside from that encouragement I really have no say over whether someone is intimidated or not, or someone else beats themselves up because their piece isn't perfect (I don't think we have anyone that actually does that).

So if anyone is comparing themselves to me and thinking they don't want to submit unless I'm at the end of the line as a veteran, or whatever the name would be, STOP IT laugh . No one is compared to anyone else. It's just us individual chickens.

My 4 cents laugh

Cathy
_________________________

Top
#2066832 - 04/19/13 12:23 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4219
Loc: Arizona.
Tallguy, I can sense your frustration. This topic has been brought up many, Many, MANY times before over the past several years. I know this because I was the one who constantly kept bringing it up.

Short version: The group as a whole has always said "NO" very clearly.

Piano World has a beginer group (ABF) and an advanced group (pianist corner). If you are wondering where the "Intermediate" group is....well so am I!

Many times in the past the suggestion of breaking up the beginer group into more accurate and compatible 'groupings' has been suggested but as I've mentioned the concept has always been shot down. I personally didn't and still don't agree with this logic for all the reasons you bring up.

The fact is, many of the better players serve as an example as to what you can accomplish from scratch. Something that others may aspire to as well. Many have started out here as true beginners...[Think Pampers!] On the other hand, actual 'real' true beginners, [current day] can easily be intimidated by many of the more advanced performances that will be heard in these recitals.

The problem is a very simple one. Either we leave everything alone as it has been since the inception of the recitals, OR, create a new home {Intermediate Forum] that would be compatible for the more advanced players who started out in the beginner forum and have progressed.

As mentioned, this concept has been shot down many times before but I still think separating the true beginners from the intermediate players from the advanced ones just makes perfect and compatible sense.

Elementary schools (ABF) don't compete with junior high schools {non-existent intermediate group) which don't compete with high schools and beyond {Pianist Corner).

I'm not sure I understand the logic either but I'm on your side with this. My only suggestion is to NOT penalize anyone in any possible way for ....improving! Getting kicked out of the recitals for being to good is not exactly a positive reinforcement. Actually, it is counter productive. Creating a more compatible environment for the different ability levels seems much more fair and reasonable. I just wish we would go that way instead of new members becoming frustrated on an ongoing basis.

Top
#2066843 - 04/19/13 12:54 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
MaryBee Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 1207
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
Elementary schools (ABF) don't compete with junior high schools {non-existent intermediate group) which don't compete with high schools and beyond {Pianist Corner).
But we're not competing with each other, are we? I'd like to believe that we're supporting and helping each other. And besides, I love the range of skills and genres and approaches that can be found here.
_________________________
Mary Bee
Current mantra: Play outside the box.
XVI-XXXIV

Top
#2066847 - 04/19/13 01:25 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Allard Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 326
Loc: Netherlands
I'm not sure how being dead first with your first submission is going to be encouraging. That's a lot of attention, you know? Participating can already be scary. Let's just stick with encouraging everyone to join.
_________________________
David Lanz - Dream of the Forgotten Child
Nobuo Uematsu - Aerith's Theme (Final Fantasy VII Piano Collections)

Top
#2066856 - 04/19/13 01:49 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: MaryBee]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4219
Loc: Arizona.
Originally Posted By: MaryBee
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
Elementary schools (ABF) don't compete with junior high schools {non-existent intermediate group) which don't compete with high schools and beyond {Pianist Corner).
But we're not competing with each other, are we? I'd like to believe that we're supporting and helping each other. And besides, I love the range of skills and genres and approaches that can be found here.


MaryBee, to 'technically' answer your question, no. I don't compete, and others say they don't either. I 100% agree with your position of supporting and helping each other as well as listening to all the various skill levels here.

The fact is however that the subject of the ABF recitals containing lots of beyond beginner level participants does get mentioned literally every single recital. Sometimes the wording is a little camouflaged like "holy cow, I am amazed at the talent here" etc.

In addition, comparing ones self to others is probably an inherent human trait. We can deny that we don't do it, but many still will.

If I were a brand new beginner I would honestly be terrified to enter the current recitals because the level of playing can be very intimidating. Then again, I was terrified as a 16 year old kid getting on the Merrit parkway in Connecticut that used near perpendicular on ramps at the time. [I was in a VW Rabitt....diesel!] I had no choice but to take my best shot and punch it even though I was only driving something that had the pickup of a lawnmower.

The fact is, I made it and ultimately gained more and more confidence. But it WAS really scary at first.

Top
#2066865 - 04/19/13 02:06 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Sand Tiger Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 993
Loc: Southern California
Mr. Super-Hunky,

The ABF recital and the ABF piano bar are Intermediate groups. Like I said, for the last recital, there were maybe 6 out of 50+ that had one year of experience. Even for those six, most were quite advanced for one year, and might be categorized as intermediates to many observers. What does that leave us with? A tiny, tiny group of true beginners willing to submit for recital? The original poster may even have too much experience to qualify for true beginner status as some might want to define it. Where is the line?

As for an Intermediates forum, why not just start a topic or two with that word in the heading and have at it? Seems like a simple way to solve a problem that bugs you. If you tend to the thread, it will stay. If the topics are of interest, it will stay. If not it will fall away. If that thread or threads grow to be monsters, the powers that be may indeed decide to make a separate forum for them.

Same with the true beginners, just start a thread or two, and see. I observe that as a percentage, there aren't very many true beginners around. Most are in either in the fast burner camp, leaping out of true beginner status in a few months, or have vast prior experience.


Edited by Sand Tiger (04/19/13 02:09 AM)
_________________________
my piano uploads

Top
#2066867 - 04/19/13 02:14 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Sand Tiger]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 944
Loc: Bulgaria
Well it's not possible for us to always stay at the beginner level. At my first abf recital I played a simple tune that I could barely handle. Everyone else was playing better but I was glad to share what little I could at that point. It's all about sharing your music. It doesn't need to be amazing. I for one am not obsessed with the perfection. I do one or two takes and I post it. I don't have the patience to sit all day and record. My mistakes show but if I can't play it better at that point what's the use of trying to cover them up with edits or too many takes.
_________________________
Music Pedagogy Student

Recitals:

Top
#2066869 - 04/19/13 02:25 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I am not a complete true beginner but havent wanted to post in the recital due to being intimidated by the quality.... but then it motivates me to strive further...


And infact.... come what may.... i think i will do it now.


Still think there is a place for an adult student forum....
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

Top
#2066870 - 04/19/13 02:26 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
sinophilia Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 944
Loc: Italy
I've always interpreted 'adult beginner' as somebody who starts or restarts piano playing as an adult; plus, most of the times (but there are exceptions) we are amateurs with no professional goals in mind.

I am one of the 'true' beginners and I don't think I will classify myself as intermediate for at least another 4-5 years. Lots of very good players here claim they are still beginners and it may be true after all - because playing the piano is damn hard!

Personally, I compare myself with other 'true beginners', but I do so just to gauge my progress. Everybody is better than I am right now, but I am encouraged and stimulated by the achievements of most people here, especially those who are self-taught. It keeps me thinking I might get somewhere sooner or later. As for the recitals, I don't think anybody expects much from me, apart from myself, so I just submit something that resembles the level I am at now, minus the red dot syndrome wink And then, everybody is so kind here that one doesn't need to be intimidated at all. Yes, exposing ourselves can be daunting, but I really think it's one of the best things we can do to improve. I know I don't want to play the piano just for myself all my life, I'd like somebody to listen, even if I'm super-nervous when it happens.
_________________________
Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
Martha Argerich... is an incarnation of the artistic metaphor of the "eternal feminine" that draws us upward. (Sergio Sablich)

Top
#2066871 - 04/19/13 02:34 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4878
Loc: Italy
ATallGuy, I can see you put a lotof thought into your plan--- and yet, as I read it I thought .."Nope, can't see this working" smile

No offense,and I get your point. However I think there are a few reasons for not going ahead with this plan.

Fear of performing for others happens no matter what your level - in any recital there will be a range of performers.

This is not a competition and folks just have to get over that idea.

Segragating the performances involves a lot more work for the organizers - not to mention I personally think it is more fun to listen to a random (as submitted) order of performances, mixing up the beginners and more seasoned players.

I would refuse to participate in a vote to exclude anyone even if said vote was based on "you're too good".... as (I believe ) Sand Tiger said... there's potential for hurtfulness.

It is true that there are folks who have moved beyond beginner, and perhaps an Intermediate forum would be a good idea - but overall, we're all very happy here and I think we fear change.

If we made a new Intermediate Players Forum - we'd then probably want to have IPF (I'm looking for a new acronym smile ) quarterly recitals. .....Our organizers are in the ABF--- can we get a second set of organizers? (possibly yes) Then...who would dare to play in the IPFQR? Would some folks be criticized for overstepping their abilities and moving up -- or would folks be intimidated and not dare to move up even though they could?

(Oh, actually I think we should call it the Senior
Players so we can have the acronym SPQR smile too funny!)

Wouldn't we then run into the very same issues we're talking about now, if we create an "Intermediate" category?...We still have folks who are way above Intermediate level in our community, making a new area won't change that.

What I think it comes down to is that each person has to take responsibility for their courage.
I participated in my first recital here without having heard any of the previous recitals.

Have a listen to my early submissions --- now I think -- Oh my! How did I have the nerve to submit that?????? However, -and this is really important: It was the best I could do at that time!
They were realistic performances and they mark my progress. I'm GLAD I didn't listen to recordings because I may have thought I wasn't good enough to participate and that is so untrue. Everyone deserves an opportunity to perform and anyone who doesn't take the opportunity is just acting against their own interests.

To my knowledge there has NEVER been a negative comment on any real beginner's performance, there is only ever support and encouragement.

If folks are intimidated, ..... they just have to get over it and join in the fun!
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
#2066875 - 04/19/13 02:42 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Ganddalf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 607
Loc: Norway
As a new member I started making posts and comments under the "Pianist Corner" forum. I soon realised that most participants there are way beyond my level, and there seemed to be little interest in my posts and comments. I was a bit reluctant, however, to start posting under the "Adult Beginners" forum, since I have been playing the piano for more than 40 years (in fact, soon 50 years). Actually I have been looking around for an amateur pianist forum (also outside PianoWorld) without finding anything.

If such a forum existed, I would definitely make my posts and participate in the discussions there. But as long as things are organised as they are, I find the "Adult Beginners" forum to be the most interesting option.

When I discovered the quarterly recitals I soon realised that many of the participants were at a level similar to mine, and therefore I decided to submit a piece myself. I found the process of polishing a piece and make recordings of it very useful, and somehow it has helped me improving my skills.

If somebody feel intimidated by a veteran like me, I'm sorry for that. I hope, however, that I'll not going to be kicked out of these recitals unless some alternative is made available.

Top
#2066879 - 04/19/13 02:54 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Ganddalf]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4878
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Ganddalf

If somebody feels intimidated by a veteran like me, I'm sorry for that. I hope, however, that I'll not going to be kicked out of these recitals unless some alternative is made available.


This is exactly what I would NEVER want to happen.
I would never want anyone to be "kicked out" - even if another alternative were available.

I believe if anyone is intimidated it is their problem, not the problem of a longer-playing more seasoned performer.

(I include myself in the group that sometimes thinks...wow so-and-so is really good....and he/she has been playing the same amount of time as I have ...or even worse LESS!
But I can only repeat, we're not here to compete or (heaven forbid) intimidate - we're here to share and hey, maybe even be inspired!
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
#2066884 - 04/19/13 03:27 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 579
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
I think there's definitely a tendency to compare -- even in those who say they do not care. And yes, it can be intimidating to hear other people, who may have more or less experience, knocking it out of the park in a way you're incapable of. I was humbled, recently, by one of the true beginners here, who had uploaded a piece I'd tackled myself not long before. She was playing it almost twice as fast as I ever had, but just as musically. And she'd only started playing two months or so ago!

But as casinitaly, among others, has said: if I let things like that dissuade me from sharing my own music, I'm not going to help anybody; least of all myself. And trying to 'segregate' the recital into different silos, while potentially complicated to pull off on a technical and organizational level, is not really going to solve the problem of some people being too shy to post.

Suppose that, somehow, we implemented the Tall Guy's idea. We would then have three categories of players, roughly divided by level (as determined through voting). But within each category, while controlling somewhat for playing ability, we'd still have people with varying levels of real-world experience. The intimidation would, perhaps, no longer come from the fact that there are so many accomplished players in the recitals who aren't really beginners any more. But I could easily see it come instead from the fact that, hey, this other guy who has been playing for about as long as I have has already been voted into the 'veterans' category, and I am nowhere near his level. Better not participate, then.

So, lots of complications and potential for hurt feelings due to the nature of the voting process, but not a real solution. Sorry, but I don't think it's worth it.

I think, TallGuy, that the actual solution to your problem is to learn to look at your progress differently. We all compare ourselves to others. I do it all the time. But actually, it's not productive to focus too much on the progress we have or haven't made in comparison to others, or even to ourselves at an earlier time (lulls happen). So what I try to do instead, now, is ask myself from time to time: are you still getting value out of this learning process? Are you still having fun?

As I wrote in a different thread not that long ago: the second my answer to one of those questions is 'no' for too many days in a row, I will stop playing. Until then, I will keep plugging along. And yes, I will also occasionally share my music here. Because where's the fun in it, if we can't share?

I know from experience that the ABF, including the Recital, is a friendly place where people won't say anything, unless they have something good to say. So there is no reason for me to be scared of getting crushed. Meanwhile, I have a tangible goal to work towards (at minimum, to have a piece performance-ready once every three months), and a very friendly audience to cheer me on. Great deal, right?

And if it is, then that's what we have to emphasise and advertise to potential new participants -- even if they've only just finished page 10 of Alfred's, Book 1.
_________________________
Beginner with some priors since 9/2012

Currently Playable
Bach 846, 926, 930
Beethoven 27/2 mvt. 1
Burgmüller 100/3, 4, 7, 12, 15, 19, 25
Chopin 72/1
Clementi 36/1
Grieg 12/1, 7
Tchaikovsky 39/9

Future
Burgmüller 109
Bartok Sz 56
Mozart K331

Top
#2066885 - 04/19/13 03:38 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
earlofmar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1406
Loc: Australia
As a true beginner I would turn the whole notion back on itself and say leave it as it is. Having thought it through I have the following commentsā€¯
ā€¢ I come to this forum everyday now, I believe I am in the company of beginners and those who might call themselves intermediate. But importantly I am in the company of adults who, for the most part, have started off as beginners. This provides a safe place for me to air my views, ask questions or just watch the posts and perhaps get the odd tip. I would not be here as much if I was talking to 16 year old wonder kids.

ā€¢ Having more advanced adult players around is a good thing as it means any info I get I can trust. Sorry to say but I will generally be more trusting of the mature person who has a life experience to base their recommendations on.

ā€¢ As to the recitals, I think true beginners are too busy with learning notes, sight reading, hand exercises, etc, etc to really focus on a piece and then say, I think I will record that and put it out. In my case I am much too eager to move on to the next piece. Having said that I decided to record a piece and will submit because this is a safe place.

ā€¢ I love listening to all your recitals ā€“ it gives me hope. Rather than feel overwhelmed by the standard I am just overwhelmed with the commitment you guys have put in over the years. You guys need to have your place in the sun, you deserve it, but you actually have to be there for the others otherwise we are fumbling around and would simply go elsewhere.

ā€¢ The recitals also are a wealth of information for the beginners. The pieces that are being played we would generally not hear or even know about so it gives us pause to think what we might like to play in the future.

As always I could rattle on (I have a book in me I think keeps wanting to get out) so enough from me.
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXIV-5-XXX

Top
#2066887 - 04/19/13 03:40 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3454
Loc: Northern England.
Interesting topic. I would think the recital`s demands root out those who are not ready to give it a try. You`ll always have those who struggle with it (most of the pieces are darned hard and unsuitable for a beginner) But I`m looking forward to hearing everybody. This is a place of encouragement for everybody; the ego doesn`t come into it. There`s simply no place like this anywhere else; it`s fun and instructive.

I have to say that I have been encouraged here which simply got me back playing again after 3 years off. There`s nothing on the computer to interest me anymore; my playing has improved in the months I`ve been here; I`ve recorded things for the first time, and taken it from there.

Now, if I goes and buys an expensive acoustic piano, you guys are to blame for my consequential marital difficulties . . .

Maybe for the next recital, you can grade the pieces. So guys with experience won`t swallow up the easier ones . . .and they`ll be challenged too!
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2066889 - 04/19/13 03:43 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Sand Tiger]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4219
Loc: Arizona.
[quote=Sand Tiger]Mr. Super-Hunky,

The ABF recital and the ABF piano bar are Intermediate groups. Like I said, for the last recital, there were maybe 6 out of 50+ that had one year of experience. Even for those six, most were quite advanced for one year, and might be categorized as intermediates to many observers. What does that leave us with? A tiny, tiny group of true beginners willing to submit for recital? The original poster may even have too much experience to qualify for true beginner status as some might want to define it. Where is the line?

Don't ask me because I don't know. That is EXACTLY what the problem is. Lack of accurate and compatible descriptions. You said it yourself in that the adult beginner recitals contain only a small minority of true beginners. We call ourselves a "beginner" group even though the vast majority who participate are not.

As for an Intermediates forum, why not just start a topic or two with that word in the heading and have at it?

I have, many Many times as stated above. Previous year searches will bring up the topic and the discussions that followed. The overall mindset of the group has always been to ultimately keep the group as it currently is. Sure, the true beginner will be intimidated but at the same time we all were at first. We also didn't have to continue putting ourselves through the self imposed stress but many did anyway. Ultimately, the real 'true' beginners of past years are now some of the better performers on this site. I am certainly NOT for kicking these people out of the recitals because these people have so much to offer today s true beginners in the form of advice and encouragement. In addition, I feel the better performers have earned their right to display their abilities that they worked so incredibly hard at obtaining.

The only problem I have is the inaccurate heading of the word 'beginner' in our forum. Why?, because as you say (correctly) only a very small minority is actually a true beginner. The idea of adding an 'Intermediate' group OR renaming our existing ABF group to include the word 'Intermediate' would of course be more factually accurate. But once again, the concept never sticks. We all discuss it as a group only for it to ultimately die out.

But the exact topic is as predictable in the future as the perpetual 'I have no motivation to play' type of threads. You'll see.

Top
#2066910 - 04/19/13 04:42 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3461
I follow your reasoning.

Talking for myself, stuggling to get a good rendition of Rachmaninov can hardly be called beginner blush Yet I have done only one public recital and I am playing only 3.5years. So in that respect I think I'm still beginner.

Also, the number of years playing is clearly indicated in the submissions.

>I see this proposal as being mostly about ego and comparisons.

+1

Don't you think it is motivating for starters to see where they COULD be after X years if they put in the work? And to hear all these not-perfect but sincere attempts?
_________________________

Top
#2066916 - 04/19/13 05:24 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
I've been playing for many years and I dare say I'd not be considered a beginner but when I listen to the recitals I don't see my performance as anything that stands out when compared to CarolsCC or cgyan, for example, who've only been playing around three years. Maybe my stuff is technically harder.

And then I compare my performance with a professional...and realise I'm really just a beginner.

I've enjoyed all the recitals I've heard, I've enjoyed most of the pieces and, as peterws points out, there's really no place like it anywhere else.

The opportunity to submit is a treasure. I never had anything like this in my youth and even in the mere two recitals I've done I've grown as a player and improved my practise, my focus and my listening as a result of them.

This is a very supportive and encouraging environment. It's great to hear people starting out - it really is, I hear people with less than a couple of years and I say, yeah, that's where I've come from, that's how I was, hey, I'm improving! I don't consider their playing poor or less enjoyable than mine. I'm mostly stunned at the few years they've had compared to the years I'd had when I was at that standard. Then I listen to players like Ganddalf, Amaruk and Peyton and think I've a way to go yet!

It's not a competition - or I wouldn't be here - it's a place to say this is me, here's where I'm at right now. In time I hope to listen again and say that's where I've come from. It's great to hear my peers, encouraging to hear how far I've come, and exciting to hear how far we can go as amateurs.

If you're intimidated by the rest of us...I listened last night to Emmylou Harris strumming a few simple chords on guitar and as soon as she started to sing I realised I put all these hours in over all these years and I'm going nowhere. I'll never match that.

We are who we are and where we are, there's no need to compare ourselves to people who aren't us. Roll the tape, put down your stuff and send it in. Sit back and wait for everyone to tell you what the good bits are! Wherever you are, you'll be glad you did.
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2066919 - 04/19/13 05:39 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Recaredo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 1070
Loc: Southeast of Spain
I think the richness of the ABF recitals (themed ones included) comes from the variety of piano levels that the listener can find in them. On the other hand, probably I wouldnā€™t feel comfortable if my submission had to be categorized according to my skills or experience on the piano.

Just my two cents smile

_________________________

My website

Top
#2066932 - 04/19/13 06:36 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
WiseBuff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 797
Loc: Brighton Colorado
It's easy to tell newbies that they SHOULDN'T be intimidated but it's not that easy for some to make the jump into playing without comparison. The e-citals are wonderful events and the variety is a pleasure to listen to. In my teacher's adult group we have piano parties several times a year and the newest members still are nervous and feel inadequate in performing. It's a process.

Could it be useful to have a "first recital" recital to initiate and reward people for their first efforts? We are currently offering variations of recitals already, why not one that is geared specifically to the true beginners?
_________________________



Love to learn

Top
#2066938 - 04/19/13 06:58 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: WiseBuff]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4878
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: WiseBuff
It's easy to tell newbies that they SHOULDN'T be intimidated but it's not that easy for some to make the jump into playing without comparison. The e-citals are wonderful events and the variety is a pleasure to listen to. In my teacher's adult group we have piano parties several times a year and the newest members still are nervous and feel inadequate in performing. It's a process.

Could it be useful to have a "first recital" recital to initiate and reward people for their first efforts? We are currently offering variations of recitals already, why not one that is geared specifically to the true beginners?


I like that idea very much - though I think the intimidation factor will still come into play - we've got one lovely true beginner who after only 3 MONTHS of lessons, is already playing better than I do after 3 years!
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
#2066943 - 04/19/13 07:12 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Sam S Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1407
Loc: Georgia, USA
Speaking from a software viewpoint: I didn't write the original software that runs the recitals - that was Mahlzeit. But I have made some minor changes and moved it to the Piano World servers. I think we can consider it "mature" now and I would hate to make changes at this point. The software pretty much runs itself, with Monica doing the work of calling for submissions, zipping up the files, and generating the recital posts. I would be reluctant to make any significant changes.

But it would be easy to introduce an additional recital, and run it with the same software and in the same way. Call it the "intermediate" or the "true beginner" or whatever, but as long as there is a volunteer to do what Monica does for the current recital it should work just fine. Separate it from the current recitals by a month.

If we do decide to introduce another recital, instead of voting to decide who plays where and running the risk of hurt feelings and misunderstandings, I think it would be better for each person to decide for themselves where they belong. It would self-police after a while I think, as long as we can come up with some clear language to help people decide in which recital to participate.

I don't think that we should segregate by years of experience, because that is so meaningless for adults. A better way is to decide on a list of pieces and skills that we can use as a loosely defined boundary. For instance, if you are still playing from a method book, then you should participate in the beginner recital. But once you progress to the Moonlight Sonata movement or Bach's C major prelude then you should consider moving to the intermediate. Maybe we can ask the help of the Piano Teacher's Forum in coming up with a set of pieces and skills to use as a boundary that would work for classical and non-classical.

I like the idea of another recital. There is room - look at the themed recitals run by Rostosky and Wayne. They are doing it without software, just youtube submissions, and without a set schedule, but so far it is working. And the piano bar always attracts a lot of attention.

If we do introduce another recital, I'm sure it will take some time to settle down. Each recital will be smaller that what we have now, which might be a good thing. And we may be able to create a more welcoming environment for the true beginners among us.

Sam

Top
#2066970 - 04/19/13 08:26 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
timmyab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 452
Loc: Bristol, UK
I would leave it as it is.I can't believe that segregating people into groups is going to help, it may even be counterproductive.One of the great things about this group is it's inclusive, non competitive, all are welcome attitude.

I do think the forum title is a slight misnomer.It probably should read something like "Beginners and improvers forum".If you had to be a true adult beginner to post here then the forum would probably become a shadow of it's former self.

Top
#2066973 - 04/19/13 08:29 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia, USA
Can you kick me off please? Not because I'm not a beginner (OK, I'm not I'm late intermediate) ... but because that red dot is a killer wink
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebesträume No. 3, S541
  • Scarlatti - Sonata in D minor, K. 213

Kawai K3

Top
#2066985 - 04/19/13 08:59 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
ElleC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 248
Loc: NJ, USA
Wow this is a hot topic! I'm a true beginner but I was only, honestly intimidated by the 5-11 year olds I had to be in a live recital with 3 weeks ago. Though that red dot is also intimidating, I look forward to hearing constructive criticism from all you fine ladies and gents. I come here every day now to see what you guys post. That piano bar is awesome! Even though I'm not savvy and eloquent enough to really share my thoughts on technical issues, I admire all the levels of piano playing that you guys do. it inspires me to practice knowing that in maybe 3 or so years I'd be able to play what I've heard some of you guys play. Anyway...I really look forward to submitting my first ABF recital piece and hearing everyone's contributions. This is a lovely and friendly community and I think that we shouldn't think it's some kind of competition. It is a merely a showcase of our journey towards getting better.
_________________________
Adult beginner since January 2013. My only regret is that I didn't learn sooner.

Top
#2066996 - 04/19/13 09:32 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: WiseBuff]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 579
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: WiseBuff
It's easy to tell newbies that they SHOULDN'T be intimidated but it's not that easy for some to make the jump into playing without comparison [...]

Could it be useful to have a "first recital" recital to initiate and reward people for their first efforts? We are currently offering variations of recitals already, why not one that is geared specifically to the true beginners?


I agree about the problem as stated here, and I like the proposed solution, provided that it really does become a 'first recital only' space.

I'd propose two simple, easily verified rules for participation in this new recital:

1) First-time e-cital participants *only*.
2) Has been playing for one year or less.

Adult restarters may or may not be included, but perhaps then we should put some kind of limit on the level of playing they had previously attained. This is probably best gauged by looking at the kind of music they got started with as an adult. I like the idea of "method books in, repertoire out". But I realize that not all beginners necessarily follow a method book. Perhaps they have a teacher who likes to take a different aproach, or perhaps they are a self-learner who really only got into it to play ragtime (or Bach, or Tori Amos songs, for all I care), and they jumped straight to that. Some guidance from piano teachers might indeed be useful here.

The drawbacks of this approach are basically the same drawbacks we have in the current system: even if you control for time since the first step was taken, there's no accounting for the speed at which people progress. Results will vary widely (though nowhere near as widely as they do now), and there will inevitably still be some comparing going on.

The benefits are clear, though:

1) There will be less participants, so those who wish to do so can easily give very in-depth feedback on each submission.

2) Though results *will* inevitably vary, the gap between the fastest burner and the most recent beginner will be vastly smaller, thus less intimidating.

3) By reserving a space specifically for those who are doing this for the first time, we would assure that there can be very little dispute over who gets to submit here, and who moved on to the 'regular' Recital.

Given the 'less participants' aspect, this recital might not have to be quarterly. Maybe twice a year would suffice (December, June?). Those who join the forum on, say, January 15, and who qualify for the first timers' Recital but still want to share something sooner, would still be free to participate in the February or May edition of the Quarterly. Those with cold feet could wait it out.

I would be willing to take on the role of 'kick-off person' (a.k.a. the Monica K. equivalent of whatever we'd end up calling this thing).

What do others think?
_________________________
Beginner with some priors since 9/2012

Currently Playable
Bach 846, 926, 930
Beethoven 27/2 mvt. 1
Burgmüller 100/3, 4, 7, 12, 15, 19, 25
Chopin 72/1
Clementi 36/1
Grieg 12/1, 7
Tchaikovsky 39/9

Future
Burgmüller 109
Bartok Sz 56
Mozart K331

Top
#2067004 - 04/19/13 09:44 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2375
Loc: Virginia, USA
So I understand the reticence of real beginner's posting their efforts, though personally I am very very careful to adjust my comments relative to the music and the level of playing ability.

Now, if some complete beginner decides they are going to record a completely inappropriate piece like a Chopin Ballade for their first attempt I'm going to call them out on that. Ooops, that was Sam Rose and he completely wowed us with an amazing performance that a beginner should have been five+ years away from ...

... which is really my point. Would having some sort of division help? Do you think it would be helpful as a beginner to have your best performance, with warts and wrinkles, of Schumann's "Melody" only to find another complete beginner has posted an amazing performance of Chopin's Ballade #1.

Let's keep things the way they are. Those who catch Monica's post first, get there first, those who submit at 9pm on the day before are last and the rest of us fall in between.
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebesträume No. 3, S541
  • Scarlatti - Sonata in D minor, K. 213

Kawai K3

Top
#2067025 - 04/19/13 10:13 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17746
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Looks like I'm coming late to this party. fwiw, here are my thoughts.

Short version: It ain't broke; don't fix it.

Longer version: As Mr_Super-Hunky said, we revisit this topic regularly, hash it out at great length, but somehow always keep coming back to the same conclusion: The current format is the best of a bunch of imperfect options. While I appreciate the concern that motivated this thread, and I *really* would like to see more 'true beginners' participate in the recitals, I don't see the proposed solutions as being practical. In particular, controlling who gets grouped where in the recital queue would not be easy with the current software, and I'm not sure I'd want to put the time into doing it. (i.e., I'd have to go through manually and edit each individual submission to "bump" them to the end, and I'd have to figure out what order to do that to get people in the right groups. I'm not that smart.)

However, the idea of hosting a separate "True Beginner" recital has merit and would be very easy to do. As Sam S. noted, we could use the current software; just create a new recital with the appropriate name. I like Saranoya's idea of using easily defined, objective criteria for participation (no previous participation in any e-cital, playing time less than 1 year--though we'd probably want to include restarters?). The only snag is that I suspect such a recital would attract a much smaller number of participants, perhaps too small to be viable. I imagine it would only make sense to have it once or twice a year. It may be worth holding an informal poll and asking people to raise their internet hands if they would submit to such a True Beginner recital.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
64 registered (Abby Pianoman, AndrewJCW, Allard, beeboss, barbaram, 18 invisible), 1175 Guests and 29 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75581 Members
42 Forums
156278 Topics
2295078 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Help with dynamics
by noobpianist90
Today at 03:53 AM
Using Kawai MP6 faders/knobs with virtual instruments?
by chicolom
Today at 02:35 AM
Coming up with new compositional methods.
by gsmonks
Today at 01:58 AM
Impromptu in A
by Ritzycat
Today at 12:42 AM
what do you think piano teachers about it?
by Maximillyan
Today at 12:15 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission