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#2066799 - 04/18/13 10:38 PM Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already??
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 508

Some people in the recitals are just too darn good. They're not even remotely "beginner" any more.

So, can we just vote them out so the whole enterprise isn't as intimidating as it appears to be for the true beginners?

OK, ok... I'm kidding... sorta. The Subject line was just a cheap ploy to get people to click on the topic.

Here's what I'm actually suggesting:

Everyone says they want more "true beginners" to participate, right? But at the same time, everyone seems so, well, OCD & competitive about getting the perfect performance recorded. Hearing about the pieces being prepared by veterans, going back and listening to prior recitals, it's hard not to feel unworthy when contemplating a first time submission.

I think we could have our cake and eat it too though, by creating a "Senior Circuit" of sorts for those that have moved on from being beginners, but we just can't seem to get rid of them nevertheless smile (who would want to leave after all?!)

Here's a rough outline of how I'm imagining it would work:

1) Nothing changes in the recital submission process, except that those who participate also have the right to participate in a sort of "kangaroo court" regarding who gets voted into the ABFQR Hall of Fame. This would occur a couple weeks or a month after the recital... There has to be enough time allowed for lots of speculation, informal nominations, falsely modest "guys -- I'm really not all that good" banter, and so on.

2) When the next recital rolls around, the HoF folks go to the back of the line. Everyone submits as they normally do, and they get posted in chronological order, except the cream of the crop (based on prior recital votes) goes at the end.

3) I'd even push it one step further... Why not put all the rookies at the front? If we want them to participate, why not showcase them?


Basically, it would be chronological order of submission within each group:

I) Rookies
II) Veterans
III) Hall of Famers


So... my thoughts on advantages of this approach, or some variant that I'm hoping will be debated below:

a) It would be fun.
b) Getting kicked to the back of the recital would be an honor.
c) The recital builds to the most seasoned performers (more or less) at the end.
d) Encourages new participants by highlighting their submissions first.
e) Encourages participation overall. Not any Tom, Dick, or Harry can vote -- you have to submit to the recital!

The whole point would be to keep it light-hearted. After all, nobody cares all that much where they are in the order today, and that shouldn't change.

I hope that people like this as a general concept... The one aspect that I really don't know about is how disruptive this would be to Monica's well-oiled process. But if the idea has merit, maybe something could be figured out to make administering it not too terribly onerous.

Thoughts??


P.S. If you can rebuild and/or tune your own piano, or play Brahms to near perfection while tipsy, you already have my vote smile
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

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#2066810 - 04/18/13 11:21 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Sand Tiger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 1041
Loc: Southern California
I vote for simple. It is a huge task to organize the recital as is. Adding more work is a very bad idea. For the last recital there were about six people with one year experience, and most of those were way advanced for one year (eg: completing book two already when the average devout beginner is just finishing book one).

Changing all the rules as suggested might double that, maybe triple it to 18 novice participants, and about double or triple the work too. For this reason, I vote thumbs down on the proposal. I see it as a ton of extra work to coax a few more beginners to upload.

All a beginner needs to do, is do their best. They will only get praise from the forum. They will produce a useful landmark on their beginner journey. Stop over thinking it. Record and upload.

I see this proposal as being mostly about ego and comparisons. Don't worry about what others are doing, or if they consider themselves a beginner or not. It is clear enough from the quality of the recording and the brief biographical info given, who is who and what is what. If old timers on this forum want to upload here, and have their friends and others listen I see no harm in it.

A better idea might be a true beginners thread, where only those that have no prior musical experience and less than 500 hours of practice time would be the loose guidelines for those sharing their music. This would be no extra work, with 80% of the benefits.

/edit do add: voting is a bad idea. The proposal says light hearted, but some folks are mean, and some folks are sensitive. There will be hurt feelings and bruised egos with any public vote, that will be much more damaging to the community than any potential benefits. A secret vote doubles the work again, and still means many hurt feelings.


Edited by Sand Tiger (04/18/13 11:38 PM)
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#2066814 - 04/18/13 11:28 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5529
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
I think Adult Beginner is a state of mind, not a technical level smile

We're all in this together, and I'm still a beginner at lots of things. Some folks are just shyer than others.

Besides, I think who is "better" is so entirely subjective as to be not votable on laugh I just don't have much I can say about 99% of the classical, and certainly wouldn't vote one way or the other on anyone's skill. And the genres are so wildly different - how, really, can one compare me with Andy Platt (hi, Andy!)?

Do I think some people are way better than I am? Why, yes, I do smile But I'm not willing to put it to a vote, even if "winning" is supposed to be a good thing.

I *am* willing to reiterate that everyone can submit a piece - it's not a contest, it's a picture of where you are now in your piano journey. I do the best I can, and have never put in a perfect piece. We've had people who've been playing as short a time as a couple of weeks submit. But aside from that encouragement I really have no say over whether someone is intimidated or not, or someone else beats themselves up because their piece isn't perfect (I don't think we have anyone that actually does that).

So if anyone is comparing themselves to me and thinking they don't want to submit unless I'm at the end of the line as a veteran, or whatever the name would be, STOP IT laugh . No one is compared to anyone else. It's just us individual chickens.

My 4 cents laugh

Cathy
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#2066832 - 04/19/13 12:23 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
Tallguy, I can sense your frustration. This topic has been brought up many, Many, MANY times before over the past several years. I know this because I was the one who constantly kept bringing it up.

Short version: The group as a whole has always said "NO" very clearly.

Piano World has a beginer group (ABF) and an advanced group (pianist corner). If you are wondering where the "Intermediate" group is....well so am I!

Many times in the past the suggestion of breaking up the beginer group into more accurate and compatible 'groupings' has been suggested but as I've mentioned the concept has always been shot down. I personally didn't and still don't agree with this logic for all the reasons you bring up.

The fact is, many of the better players serve as an example as to what you can accomplish from scratch. Something that others may aspire to as well. Many have started out here as true beginners...[Think Pampers!] On the other hand, actual 'real' true beginners, [current day] can easily be intimidated by many of the more advanced performances that will be heard in these recitals.

The problem is a very simple one. Either we leave everything alone as it has been since the inception of the recitals, OR, create a new home {Intermediate Forum] that would be compatible for the more advanced players who started out in the beginner forum and have progressed.

As mentioned, this concept has been shot down many times before but I still think separating the true beginners from the intermediate players from the advanced ones just makes perfect and compatible sense.

Elementary schools (ABF) don't compete with junior high schools {non-existent intermediate group) which don't compete with high schools and beyond {Pianist Corner).

I'm not sure I understand the logic either but I'm on your side with this. My only suggestion is to NOT penalize anyone in any possible way for ....improving! Getting kicked out of the recitals for being to good is not exactly a positive reinforcement. Actually, it is counter productive. Creating a more compatible environment for the different ability levels seems much more fair and reasonable. I just wish we would go that way instead of new members becoming frustrated on an ongoing basis.

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#2066843 - 04/19/13 12:54 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
MaryBee Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
Elementary schools (ABF) don't compete with junior high schools {non-existent intermediate group) which don't compete with high schools and beyond {Pianist Corner).
But we're not competing with each other, are we? I'd like to believe that we're supporting and helping each other. And besides, I love the range of skills and genres and approaches that can be found here.
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Current mantra: Play outside the box.
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#2066847 - 04/19/13 01:25 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Allard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 339
Loc: Netherlands
I'm not sure how being dead first with your first submission is going to be encouraging. That's a lot of attention, you know? Participating can already be scary. Let's just stick with encouraging everyone to join.
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#2066856 - 04/19/13 01:49 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: MaryBee]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
Originally Posted By: MaryBee
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
Elementary schools (ABF) don't compete with junior high schools {non-existent intermediate group) which don't compete with high schools and beyond {Pianist Corner).
But we're not competing with each other, are we? I'd like to believe that we're supporting and helping each other. And besides, I love the range of skills and genres and approaches that can be found here.


MaryBee, to 'technically' answer your question, no. I don't compete, and others say they don't either. I 100% agree with your position of supporting and helping each other as well as listening to all the various skill levels here.

The fact is however that the subject of the ABF recitals containing lots of beyond beginner level participants does get mentioned literally every single recital. Sometimes the wording is a little camouflaged like "holy cow, I am amazed at the talent here" etc.

In addition, comparing ones self to others is probably an inherent human trait. We can deny that we don't do it, but many still will.

If I were a brand new beginner I would honestly be terrified to enter the current recitals because the level of playing can be very intimidating. Then again, I was terrified as a 16 year old kid getting on the Merrit parkway in Connecticut that used near perpendicular on ramps at the time. [I was in a VW Rabitt....diesel!] I had no choice but to take my best shot and punch it even though I was only driving something that had the pickup of a lawnmower.

The fact is, I made it and ultimately gained more and more confidence. But it WAS really scary at first.

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#2066865 - 04/19/13 02:06 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Sand Tiger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 1041
Loc: Southern California
Mr. Super-Hunky,

The ABF recital and the ABF piano bar are Intermediate groups. Like I said, for the last recital, there were maybe 6 out of 50+ that had one year of experience. Even for those six, most were quite advanced for one year, and might be categorized as intermediates to many observers. What does that leave us with? A tiny, tiny group of true beginners willing to submit for recital? The original poster may even have too much experience to qualify for true beginner status as some might want to define it. Where is the line?

As for an Intermediates forum, why not just start a topic or two with that word in the heading and have at it? Seems like a simple way to solve a problem that bugs you. If you tend to the thread, it will stay. If the topics are of interest, it will stay. If not it will fall away. If that thread or threads grow to be monsters, the powers that be may indeed decide to make a separate forum for them.

Same with the true beginners, just start a thread or two, and see. I observe that as a percentage, there aren't very many true beginners around. Most are in either in the fast burner camp, leaping out of true beginner status in a few months, or have vast prior experience.


Edited by Sand Tiger (04/19/13 02:09 AM)
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#2066867 - 04/19/13 02:14 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Sand Tiger]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 945
Loc: Bulgaria
Well it's not possible for us to always stay at the beginner level. At my first abf recital I played a simple tune that I could barely handle. Everyone else was playing better but I was glad to share what little I could at that point. It's all about sharing your music. It doesn't need to be amazing. I for one am not obsessed with the perfection. I do one or two takes and I post it. I don't have the patience to sit all day and record. My mistakes show but if I can't play it better at that point what's the use of trying to cover them up with edits or too many takes.
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#2066869 - 04/19/13 02:25 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I am not a complete true beginner but havent wanted to post in the recital due to being intimidated by the quality.... but then it motivates me to strive further...


And infact.... come what may.... i think i will do it now.


Still think there is a place for an adult student forum....
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#2066870 - 04/19/13 02:26 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
sinophilia Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 984
Loc: Italy
I've always interpreted 'adult beginner' as somebody who starts or restarts piano playing as an adult; plus, most of the times (but there are exceptions) we are amateurs with no professional goals in mind.

I am one of the 'true' beginners and I don't think I will classify myself as intermediate for at least another 4-5 years. Lots of very good players here claim they are still beginners and it may be true after all - because playing the piano is damn hard!

Personally, I compare myself with other 'true beginners', but I do so just to gauge my progress. Everybody is better than I am right now, but I am encouraged and stimulated by the achievements of most people here, especially those who are self-taught. It keeps me thinking I might get somewhere sooner or later. As for the recitals, I don't think anybody expects much from me, apart from myself, so I just submit something that resembles the level I am at now, minus the red dot syndrome wink And then, everybody is so kind here that one doesn't need to be intimidated at all. Yes, exposing ourselves can be daunting, but I really think it's one of the best things we can do to improve. I know I don't want to play the piano just for myself all my life, I'd like somebody to listen, even if I'm super-nervous when it happens.
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Martha Argerich... is an incarnation of the artistic metaphor of the "eternal feminine" that draws us upward. (Sergio Sablich)

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#2066871 - 04/19/13 02:34 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
ATallGuy, I can see you put a lotof thought into your plan--- and yet, as I read it I thought .."Nope, can't see this working" smile

No offense,and I get your point. However I think there are a few reasons for not going ahead with this plan.

Fear of performing for others happens no matter what your level - in any recital there will be a range of performers.

This is not a competition and folks just have to get over that idea.

Segragating the performances involves a lot more work for the organizers - not to mention I personally think it is more fun to listen to a random (as submitted) order of performances, mixing up the beginners and more seasoned players.

I would refuse to participate in a vote to exclude anyone even if said vote was based on "you're too good".... as (I believe ) Sand Tiger said... there's potential for hurtfulness.

It is true that there are folks who have moved beyond beginner, and perhaps an Intermediate forum would be a good idea - but overall, we're all very happy here and I think we fear change.

If we made a new Intermediate Players Forum - we'd then probably want to have IPF (I'm looking for a new acronym smile ) quarterly recitals. .....Our organizers are in the ABF--- can we get a second set of organizers? (possibly yes) Then...who would dare to play in the IPFQR? Would some folks be criticized for overstepping their abilities and moving up -- or would folks be intimidated and not dare to move up even though they could?

(Oh, actually I think we should call it the Senior
Players so we can have the acronym SPQR smile too funny!)

Wouldn't we then run into the very same issues we're talking about now, if we create an "Intermediate" category?...We still have folks who are way above Intermediate level in our community, making a new area won't change that.

What I think it comes down to is that each person has to take responsibility for their courage.
I participated in my first recital here without having heard any of the previous recitals.

Have a listen to my early submissions --- now I think -- Oh my! How did I have the nerve to submit that?????? However, -and this is really important: It was the best I could do at that time!
They were realistic performances and they mark my progress. I'm GLAD I didn't listen to recordings because I may have thought I wasn't good enough to participate and that is so untrue. Everyone deserves an opportunity to perform and anyone who doesn't take the opportunity is just acting against their own interests.

To my knowledge there has NEVER been a negative comment on any real beginner's performance, there is only ever support and encouragement.

If folks are intimidated, ..... they just have to get over it and join in the fun!
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XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2066875 - 04/19/13 02:42 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Ganddalf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 636
Loc: Norway
As a new member I started making posts and comments under the "Pianist Corner" forum. I soon realised that most participants there are way beyond my level, and there seemed to be little interest in my posts and comments. I was a bit reluctant, however, to start posting under the "Adult Beginners" forum, since I have been playing the piano for more than 40 years (in fact, soon 50 years). Actually I have been looking around for an amateur pianist forum (also outside PianoWorld) without finding anything.

If such a forum existed, I would definitely make my posts and participate in the discussions there. But as long as things are organised as they are, I find the "Adult Beginners" forum to be the most interesting option.

When I discovered the quarterly recitals I soon realised that many of the participants were at a level similar to mine, and therefore I decided to submit a piece myself. I found the process of polishing a piece and make recordings of it very useful, and somehow it has helped me improving my skills.

If somebody feel intimidated by a veteran like me, I'm sorry for that. I hope, however, that I'll not going to be kicked out of these recitals unless some alternative is made available.

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#2066879 - 04/19/13 02:54 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Ganddalf]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Ganddalf

If somebody feels intimidated by a veteran like me, I'm sorry for that. I hope, however, that I'll not going to be kicked out of these recitals unless some alternative is made available.


This is exactly what I would NEVER want to happen.
I would never want anyone to be "kicked out" - even if another alternative were available.

I believe if anyone is intimidated it is their problem, not the problem of a longer-playing more seasoned performer.

(I include myself in the group that sometimes thinks...wow so-and-so is really good....and he/she has been playing the same amount of time as I have ...or even worse LESS!
But I can only repeat, we're not here to compete or (heaven forbid) intimidate - we're here to share and hey, maybe even be inspired!
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2066884 - 04/19/13 03:27 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 620
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
I think there's definitely a tendency to compare -- even in those who say they do not care. And yes, it can be intimidating to hear other people, who may have more or less experience, knocking it out of the park in a way you're incapable of. I was humbled, recently, by one of the true beginners here, who had uploaded a piece I'd tackled myself not long before. She was playing it almost twice as fast as I ever had, but just as musically. And she'd only started playing two months or so ago!

But as casinitaly, among others, has said: if I let things like that dissuade me from sharing my own music, I'm not going to help anybody; least of all myself. And trying to 'segregate' the recital into different silos, while potentially complicated to pull off on a technical and organizational level, is not really going to solve the problem of some people being too shy to post.

Suppose that, somehow, we implemented the Tall Guy's idea. We would then have three categories of players, roughly divided by level (as determined through voting). But within each category, while controlling somewhat for playing ability, we'd still have people with varying levels of real-world experience. The intimidation would, perhaps, no longer come from the fact that there are so many accomplished players in the recitals who aren't really beginners any more. But I could easily see it come instead from the fact that, hey, this other guy who has been playing for about as long as I have has already been voted into the 'veterans' category, and I am nowhere near his level. Better not participate, then.

So, lots of complications and potential for hurt feelings due to the nature of the voting process, but not a real solution. Sorry, but I don't think it's worth it.

I think, TallGuy, that the actual solution to your problem is to learn to look at your progress differently. We all compare ourselves to others. I do it all the time. But actually, it's not productive to focus too much on the progress we have or haven't made in comparison to others, or even to ourselves at an earlier time (lulls happen). So what I try to do instead, now, is ask myself from time to time: are you still getting value out of this learning process? Are you still having fun?

As I wrote in a different thread not that long ago: the second my answer to one of those questions is 'no' for too many days in a row, I will stop playing. Until then, I will keep plugging along. And yes, I will also occasionally share my music here. Because where's the fun in it, if we can't share?

I know from experience that the ABF, including the Recital, is a friendly place where people won't say anything, unless they have something good to say. So there is no reason for me to be scared of getting crushed. Meanwhile, I have a tangible goal to work towards (at minimum, to have a piece performance-ready once every three months), and a very friendly audience to cheer me on. Great deal, right?

And if it is, then that's what we have to emphasise and advertise to potential new participants -- even if they've only just finished page 10 of Alfred's, Book 1.
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Currently Playable
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#2066885 - 04/19/13 03:38 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
earlofmar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1582
Loc: Australia
As a true beginner I would turn the whole notion back on itself and say leave it as it is. Having thought it through I have the following comments”
• I come to this forum everyday now, I believe I am in the company of beginners and those who might call themselves intermediate. But importantly I am in the company of adults who, for the most part, have started off as beginners. This provides a safe place for me to air my views, ask questions or just watch the posts and perhaps get the odd tip. I would not be here as much if I was talking to 16 year old wonder kids.

• Having more advanced adult players around is a good thing as it means any info I get I can trust. Sorry to say but I will generally be more trusting of the mature person who has a life experience to base their recommendations on.

• As to the recitals, I think true beginners are too busy with learning notes, sight reading, hand exercises, etc, etc to really focus on a piece and then say, I think I will record that and put it out. In my case I am much too eager to move on to the next piece. Having said that I decided to record a piece and will submit because this is a safe place.

• I love listening to all your recitals – it gives me hope. Rather than feel overwhelmed by the standard I am just overwhelmed with the commitment you guys have put in over the years. You guys need to have your place in the sun, you deserve it, but you actually have to be there for the others otherwise we are fumbling around and would simply go elsewhere.

• The recitals also are a wealth of information for the beginners. The pieces that are being played we would generally not hear or even know about so it gives us pause to think what we might like to play in the future.

As always I could rattle on (I have a book in me I think keeps wanting to get out) so enough from me.
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#2066887 - 04/19/13 03:40 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3605
Loc: Northern England.
Interesting topic. I would think the recital`s demands root out those who are not ready to give it a try. You`ll always have those who struggle with it (most of the pieces are darned hard and unsuitable for a beginner) But I`m looking forward to hearing everybody. This is a place of encouragement for everybody; the ego doesn`t come into it. There`s simply no place like this anywhere else; it`s fun and instructive.

I have to say that I have been encouraged here which simply got me back playing again after 3 years off. There`s nothing on the computer to interest me anymore; my playing has improved in the months I`ve been here; I`ve recorded things for the first time, and taken it from there.

Now, if I goes and buys an expensive acoustic piano, you guys are to blame for my consequential marital difficulties . . .

Maybe for the next recital, you can grade the pieces. So guys with experience won`t swallow up the easier ones . . .and they`ll be challenged too!
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#2066889 - 04/19/13 03:43 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Sand Tiger]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
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[quote=Sand Tiger]Mr. Super-Hunky,

The ABF recital and the ABF piano bar are Intermediate groups. Like I said, for the last recital, there were maybe 6 out of 50+ that had one year of experience. Even for those six, most were quite advanced for one year, and might be categorized as intermediates to many observers. What does that leave us with? A tiny, tiny group of true beginners willing to submit for recital? The original poster may even have too much experience to qualify for true beginner status as some might want to define it. Where is the line?

Don't ask me because I don't know. That is EXACTLY what the problem is. Lack of accurate and compatible descriptions. You said it yourself in that the adult beginner recitals contain only a small minority of true beginners. We call ourselves a "beginner" group even though the vast majority who participate are not.

As for an Intermediates forum, why not just start a topic or two with that word in the heading and have at it?

I have, many Many times as stated above. Previous year searches will bring up the topic and the discussions that followed. The overall mindset of the group has always been to ultimately keep the group as it currently is. Sure, the true beginner will be intimidated but at the same time we all were at first. We also didn't have to continue putting ourselves through the self imposed stress but many did anyway. Ultimately, the real 'true' beginners of past years are now some of the better performers on this site. I am certainly NOT for kicking these people out of the recitals because these people have so much to offer today s true beginners in the form of advice and encouragement. In addition, I feel the better performers have earned their right to display their abilities that they worked so incredibly hard at obtaining.

The only problem I have is the inaccurate heading of the word 'beginner' in our forum. Why?, because as you say (correctly) only a very small minority is actually a true beginner. The idea of adding an 'Intermediate' group OR renaming our existing ABF group to include the word 'Intermediate' would of course be more factually accurate. But once again, the concept never sticks. We all discuss it as a group only for it to ultimately die out.

But the exact topic is as predictable in the future as the perpetual 'I have no motivation to play' type of threads. You'll see.

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#2066910 - 04/19/13 04:42 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
wouter79 Online   content
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Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3533
I follow your reasoning.

Talking for myself, stuggling to get a good rendition of Rachmaninov can hardly be called beginner blush Yet I have done only one public recital and I am playing only 3.5years. So in that respect I think I'm still beginner.

Also, the number of years playing is clearly indicated in the submissions.

>I see this proposal as being mostly about ego and comparisons.

+1

Don't you think it is motivating for starters to see where they COULD be after X years if they put in the work? And to hear all these not-perfect but sincere attempts?
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#2066916 - 04/19/13 05:24 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2368
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
I've been playing for many years and I dare say I'd not be considered a beginner but when I listen to the recitals I don't see my performance as anything that stands out when compared to CarolsCC or cgyan, for example, who've only been playing around three years. Maybe my stuff is technically harder.

And then I compare my performance with a professional...and realise I'm really just a beginner.

I've enjoyed all the recitals I've heard, I've enjoyed most of the pieces and, as peterws points out, there's really no place like it anywhere else.

The opportunity to submit is a treasure. I never had anything like this in my youth and even in the mere two recitals I've done I've grown as a player and improved my practise, my focus and my listening as a result of them.

This is a very supportive and encouraging environment. It's great to hear people starting out - it really is, I hear people with less than a couple of years and I say, yeah, that's where I've come from, that's how I was, hey, I'm improving! I don't consider their playing poor or less enjoyable than mine. I'm mostly stunned at the few years they've had compared to the years I'd had when I was at that standard. Then I listen to players like Ganddalf, Amaruk and Peyton and think I've a way to go yet!

It's not a competition - or I wouldn't be here - it's a place to say this is me, here's where I'm at right now. In time I hope to listen again and say that's where I've come from. It's great to hear my peers, encouraging to hear how far I've come, and exciting to hear how far we can go as amateurs.

If you're intimidated by the rest of us...I listened last night to Emmylou Harris strumming a few simple chords on guitar and as soon as she started to sing I realised I put all these hours in over all these years and I'm going nowhere. I'll never match that.

We are who we are and where we are, there's no need to compare ourselves to people who aren't us. Roll the tape, put down your stuff and send it in. Sit back and wait for everyone to tell you what the good bits are! Wherever you are, you'll be glad you did.
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#2066919 - 04/19/13 05:39 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Recaredo Offline
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Posts: 1091
Loc: Southeast of Spain
I think the richness of the ABF recitals (themed ones included) comes from the variety of piano levels that the listener can find in them. On the other hand, probably I wouldn’t feel comfortable if my submission had to be categorized according to my skills or experience on the piano.

Just my two cents smile

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#2066932 - 04/19/13 06:36 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
WiseBuff Offline
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Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 807
Loc: Brighton Colorado
It's easy to tell newbies that they SHOULDN'T be intimidated but it's not that easy for some to make the jump into playing without comparison. The e-citals are wonderful events and the variety is a pleasure to listen to. In my teacher's adult group we have piano parties several times a year and the newest members still are nervous and feel inadequate in performing. It's a process.

Could it be useful to have a "first recital" recital to initiate and reward people for their first efforts? We are currently offering variations of recitals already, why not one that is geared specifically to the true beginners?
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#2066938 - 04/19/13 06:58 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: WiseBuff]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: WiseBuff
It's easy to tell newbies that they SHOULDN'T be intimidated but it's not that easy for some to make the jump into playing without comparison. The e-citals are wonderful events and the variety is a pleasure to listen to. In my teacher's adult group we have piano parties several times a year and the newest members still are nervous and feel inadequate in performing. It's a process.

Could it be useful to have a "first recital" recital to initiate and reward people for their first efforts? We are currently offering variations of recitals already, why not one that is geared specifically to the true beginners?


I like that idea very much - though I think the intimidation factor will still come into play - we've got one lovely true beginner who after only 3 MONTHS of lessons, is already playing better than I do after 3 years!
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Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
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#2066943 - 04/19/13 07:12 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Sam S Offline
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Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1415
Loc: Georgia, USA
Speaking from a software viewpoint: I didn't write the original software that runs the recitals - that was Mahlzeit. But I have made some minor changes and moved it to the Piano World servers. I think we can consider it "mature" now and I would hate to make changes at this point. The software pretty much runs itself, with Monica doing the work of calling for submissions, zipping up the files, and generating the recital posts. I would be reluctant to make any significant changes.

But it would be easy to introduce an additional recital, and run it with the same software and in the same way. Call it the "intermediate" or the "true beginner" or whatever, but as long as there is a volunteer to do what Monica does for the current recital it should work just fine. Separate it from the current recitals by a month.

If we do decide to introduce another recital, instead of voting to decide who plays where and running the risk of hurt feelings and misunderstandings, I think it would be better for each person to decide for themselves where they belong. It would self-police after a while I think, as long as we can come up with some clear language to help people decide in which recital to participate.

I don't think that we should segregate by years of experience, because that is so meaningless for adults. A better way is to decide on a list of pieces and skills that we can use as a loosely defined boundary. For instance, if you are still playing from a method book, then you should participate in the beginner recital. But once you progress to the Moonlight Sonata movement or Bach's C major prelude then you should consider moving to the intermediate. Maybe we can ask the help of the Piano Teacher's Forum in coming up with a set of pieces and skills to use as a boundary that would work for classical and non-classical.

I like the idea of another recital. There is room - look at the themed recitals run by Rostosky and Wayne. They are doing it without software, just youtube submissions, and without a set schedule, but so far it is working. And the piano bar always attracts a lot of attention.

If we do introduce another recital, I'm sure it will take some time to settle down. Each recital will be smaller that what we have now, which might be a good thing. And we may be able to create a more welcoming environment for the true beginners among us.

Sam

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#2066970 - 04/19/13 08:26 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
timmyab Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 461
Loc: Bristol, UK
I would leave it as it is.I can't believe that segregating people into groups is going to help, it may even be counterproductive.One of the great things about this group is it's inclusive, non competitive, all are welcome attitude.

I do think the forum title is a slight misnomer.It probably should read something like "Beginners and improvers forum".If you had to be a true adult beginner to post here then the forum would probably become a shadow of it's former self.

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#2066973 - 04/19/13 08:29 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Andy Platt Offline
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Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2389
Loc: Virginia, USA
Can you kick me off please? Not because I'm not a beginner (OK, I'm not I'm late intermediate) ... but because that red dot is a killer wink
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#2066985 - 04/19/13 08:59 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
ElleC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 248
Loc: NJ, USA
Wow this is a hot topic! I'm a true beginner but I was only, honestly intimidated by the 5-11 year olds I had to be in a live recital with 3 weeks ago. Though that red dot is also intimidating, I look forward to hearing constructive criticism from all you fine ladies and gents. I come here every day now to see what you guys post. That piano bar is awesome! Even though I'm not savvy and eloquent enough to really share my thoughts on technical issues, I admire all the levels of piano playing that you guys do. it inspires me to practice knowing that in maybe 3 or so years I'd be able to play what I've heard some of you guys play. Anyway...I really look forward to submitting my first ABF recital piece and hearing everyone's contributions. This is a lovely and friendly community and I think that we shouldn't think it's some kind of competition. It is a merely a showcase of our journey towards getting better.
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#2066996 - 04/19/13 09:32 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: WiseBuff]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 620
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: WiseBuff
It's easy to tell newbies that they SHOULDN'T be intimidated but it's not that easy for some to make the jump into playing without comparison [...]

Could it be useful to have a "first recital" recital to initiate and reward people for their first efforts? We are currently offering variations of recitals already, why not one that is geared specifically to the true beginners?


I agree about the problem as stated here, and I like the proposed solution, provided that it really does become a 'first recital only' space.

I'd propose two simple, easily verified rules for participation in this new recital:

1) First-time e-cital participants *only*.
2) Has been playing for one year or less.

Adult restarters may or may not be included, but perhaps then we should put some kind of limit on the level of playing they had previously attained. This is probably best gauged by looking at the kind of music they got started with as an adult. I like the idea of "method books in, repertoire out". But I realize that not all beginners necessarily follow a method book. Perhaps they have a teacher who likes to take a different aproach, or perhaps they are a self-learner who really only got into it to play ragtime (or Bach, or Tori Amos songs, for all I care), and they jumped straight to that. Some guidance from piano teachers might indeed be useful here.

The drawbacks of this approach are basically the same drawbacks we have in the current system: even if you control for time since the first step was taken, there's no accounting for the speed at which people progress. Results will vary widely (though nowhere near as widely as they do now), and there will inevitably still be some comparing going on.

The benefits are clear, though:

1) There will be less participants, so those who wish to do so can easily give very in-depth feedback on each submission.

2) Though results *will* inevitably vary, the gap between the fastest burner and the most recent beginner will be vastly smaller, thus less intimidating.

3) By reserving a space specifically for those who are doing this for the first time, we would assure that there can be very little dispute over who gets to submit here, and who moved on to the 'regular' Recital.

Given the 'less participants' aspect, this recital might not have to be quarterly. Maybe twice a year would suffice (December, June?). Those who join the forum on, say, January 15, and who qualify for the first timers' Recital but still want to share something sooner, would still be free to participate in the February or May edition of the Quarterly. Those with cold feet could wait it out.

I would be willing to take on the role of 'kick-off person' (a.k.a. the Monica K. equivalent of whatever we'd end up calling this thing).

What do others think?
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Currently Playable
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#2067004 - 04/19/13 09:44 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2389
Loc: Virginia, USA
So I understand the reticence of real beginner's posting their efforts, though personally I am very very careful to adjust my comments relative to the music and the level of playing ability.

Now, if some complete beginner decides they are going to record a completely inappropriate piece like a Chopin Ballade for their first attempt I'm going to call them out on that. Ooops, that was Sam Rose and he completely wowed us with an amazing performance that a beginner should have been five+ years away from ...

... which is really my point. Would having some sort of division help? Do you think it would be helpful as a beginner to have your best performance, with warts and wrinkles, of Schumann's "Melody" only to find another complete beginner has posted an amazing performance of Chopin's Ballade #1.

Let's keep things the way they are. Those who catch Monica's post first, get there first, those who submit at 9pm on the day before are last and the rest of us fall in between.
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#2067025 - 04/19/13 10:13 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Looks like I'm coming late to this party. fwiw, here are my thoughts.

Short version: It ain't broke; don't fix it.

Longer version: As Mr_Super-Hunky said, we revisit this topic regularly, hash it out at great length, but somehow always keep coming back to the same conclusion: The current format is the best of a bunch of imperfect options. While I appreciate the concern that motivated this thread, and I *really* would like to see more 'true beginners' participate in the recitals, I don't see the proposed solutions as being practical. In particular, controlling who gets grouped where in the recital queue would not be easy with the current software, and I'm not sure I'd want to put the time into doing it. (i.e., I'd have to go through manually and edit each individual submission to "bump" them to the end, and I'd have to figure out what order to do that to get people in the right groups. I'm not that smart.)

However, the idea of hosting a separate "True Beginner" recital has merit and would be very easy to do. As Sam S. noted, we could use the current software; just create a new recital with the appropriate name. I like Saranoya's idea of using easily defined, objective criteria for participation (no previous participation in any e-cital, playing time less than 1 year--though we'd probably want to include restarters?). The only snag is that I suspect such a recital would attract a much smaller number of participants, perhaps too small to be viable. I imagine it would only make sense to have it once or twice a year. It may be worth holding an informal poll and asking people to raise their internet hands if they would submit to such a True Beginner recital.
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#2067036 - 04/19/13 10:23 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
Sand Tiger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 1041
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
Originally Posted By: Sand Tiger
Mr. Super-Hunky,

The ABF recital and the ABF piano bar are Intermediate groups.
... As for an Intermediates forum, why not just start a topic or two with that word in the heading and have at it?


I have, many Many times as stated above. Previous year searches will bring up the topic and the discussions that followed. The overall mindset of the group has always been to ultimately keep the group as it currently is.
...

But the exact topic is as predictable in the future as the perpetual 'I have no motivation to play' type of threads. You'll see.


Mr. Super-Hunky,
I think you missed the gist of my suggestion. It wasn't to rehash the creation or separation or renaming. As you say, the result of that rehashing is predictable. The suggestion is to start topics that you think are relevant to Intermediate level players and see if there is any energy in those discussions (eg: Intermediates: polyrhythms, Intermediates: comping singers, Intermediates: mordents and more, or just pile them all into one super topic: Intermediate topics). If those topics take off with a life of their own, the administrators and others might see a need for a separate forum. If there isn't any life to separate Intermediate level thread discussions, there isn't much need for a separate forum.

As for the comments by others about a separate recital, it is an idea worth considering. However, it would be small. Most true beginners have a hard time finding their way around the forum, recording, and uploading, and may not even find a true beginner recital before they are up and out of that group. There are always a few first submitters. Putting them in their own small recital has its pluses and minuses.

It may encourage two or three more to submit. The question becomes whether it is worth the extra work for two or three more? The number of listeners would likely go way down. How many intermediates are going to sign up to listen to ten beginners playing beginner pieces? There is no reward for the listener, certainly not the casual listener. With the intermediates segregated out, they have little incentive to listen and comment.

Contrast that to the current recital where the beginners are mixed in. Beginner pieces tend to be short, so the listener only has a brief time of exposure to beginner music before something more palatable comes up on the player. With so many experienced players listening, the beginners tend to get many more comments. So pluses and minuses, and I'm not sure it is clear that the positives win out.
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#2067038 - 04/19/13 10:25 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
sinophilia Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 984
Loc: Italy
If I may, I think that a "true beginner-only" recital would make not very proficient people like myself stand out even more... With things as they are now, I can still say to myself "well most of them are not true beginners anyway!" wink
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#2067054 - 04/19/13 11:06 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
CarlosCC Offline
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Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 1365
Loc: Lisbon, Portugal
This is not a competition, so I don't agree with the main idea. And I do not agree with the idea of doing a recital for "true begginers".
The spirit of ABF recitals is perfect. Do not spoil it.
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#2067055 - 04/19/13 11:07 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5529
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
"First online recital" would be a clear delimiter, but "pieces they have played" wouldn't, I don't think. I think its bias is to classical pieces, and I don't play any at all, and have no intention of ever doing so. For me one of the reasons the ABF is comfortable is because it keeps the classical "bias" to a minimum. We play an incredible range of genres, so I can play a sheet music version of Tuxedo Junction, and Inlanding can improv some swing, and jazzwee can record a live performance of his jazz band and Monica can play Einaudi, AND we have Sam S and Sam Rose and everyone play great classical pieces. And Mel can find composers most of us have never heard of, which is way cool.

The "non-classical" forum has not caught on, I think, because it hasn't got the draw of comfort - there's not a snowball's chance I'd post a sheet music version of Tuxedo Junction there, tho sometimes folks will post Joplin. But the community spirit that's here isn't there. And for me, it was the word "beginner" that made me look smile

So I really don't want a delimiter that biases this forum to classical, and I really really really think that "pieces they've played" would do so. When you're playing non-classical pieces the difficulty of the piece depends entirely on the performer. And, again, even with classical, there's a judgement call involved - maybe someone has attempted the first movement of Moonlight, but do they play it as a true beginner would, or as a professional would?

So "first online recital" I'd be fine with (or do we exclude people who posted their first online piece in the piano bar, or on youtube?) but not a delimiter by particular pieces.

Again, just me, of course.

Cathy


Edited by jotur (04/19/13 11:08 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar
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#2067077 - 04/19/13 11:39 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Cathy (Jotur) I understand your point, except that I don't see how "pieces they've played" sounds like a classical bias. In any event - it seems the more we talk about it the more see that folks are generally pretty happy with things as they are smile



Edited by casinitaly (04/19/13 11:39 AM)
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Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067085 - 04/19/13 11:48 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: casinitaly]
jotur Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5529
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
...except that I don't see how "pieces they've played" sounds like a classical bias.


Well, I think because Tuxedo Junction in sheet music is not likely to be one of the "pieces they've played" criteria laugh Maybe even Joplin Entertainer wouldn't be, tho that's more likely. Would River Runs in You be one? I don't play those, either. But - Minuet in G, yeah, that would probably be listed. The first movement of Moonlight, or Fur Elise. But if someone had only played from your Melody Bober jazz books? For me that might be a likely scenario. I just think the most common "pieces they've played" are classical - otherwise, we're all over the map, so to speak.

But I could be wrong. I have been before laugh

Cathy
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#2067099 - 04/19/13 12:08 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Ok, I had to go back and re-read the first posts about the "true beginner's recital" to refresh my memory.

I understand what you mean -and yes, I think such a list would lean heavily on classics or "very popular standars".

I also think making a list would be super tricky - even if it included lots of popular songs, there are so many levels and books with "easy versions" we'd be endlessly clarifying "which version".
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067119 - 04/19/13 01:02 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Andy Platt]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 508
Wow... this has gone off in some interesting directions that I wouldn't have anticipated. That was the whole point though.

Some replies to your replies...

First, I'm wishing I had not over-played the subject line and the opening sentences. A bunch of people responded to those as though I really wanted to vote people out! I'm definitely NOT in favor of voting anyone out of anything (within PW/ABF that is) under any circumstances.

Secondly, my point was really regarding the quarterly recitals and encouraging beginners to participate. Anything about ABF more generally, to me anyway, is a totally separate topic and distracts from having a conversation about beginners in the recitals.

I agree w/ SandTiger (although I had to sleep on it!) re: keeping things simple, and being as thoughtful as possible about different people's feelings.

For me, I'd be pleased as punch to be voted to the "Senior Circuit". Conversely, if I achieved a high level of skill and still wasn't voted in (or out, whatever), I wouldn't have bruised feelings about it either. Others wouldn't see it the same way, and still others would be put off by any whiff of competitive spirit injected. I get that, and agree.

For some who suggested I look at my progress, etc. differently -- my suggestions and thoughts aren't really about me. I'm trying to look at the big picture, not just at my own personal feelings.


I really love the suggestion of an additional recital, using the same exact software, as Sam S suggests, but on a slightly different schedule.

Under the mantras of "keep it simple" and "keep it welcoming":
  • Use the self-selection method. Anyone who feels like they'd like to share their efforts in the online recital setting, but would like to be more amongst "beginner beginners", could participate.
  • No criteria re: prior participation, experience, and so on. I wouldn't want to exclude anyone from something named the "first recital recital" who would otherwise not yet be up for submitting to the existing "been there, done that, recital". smile
  • I would hope that any "true" beginner (Diana for instance, as self-identified in this thread) would feel comfortable in the new recital, but would also feel equally comfortable to post in the existing recital if desired. This may be easier stated as a goal vs. achieved.
  • No "rules" per se. If someone does the "beginner beginner" and then realizes they feel ready to do the big one after all, then do both in that quarter -- no problem.
  • No guidelines re: "pieces" and so on... The recital would have its own life and evolve naturally as its participants wish.


As Sam points out below...

Originally Posted By: Sam S
If we do introduce another recital, I'm sure it will take some time to settle down. Each recital will be smaller that what we have now, which might be a good thing. And we may be able to create a more welcoming environment for the true beginners among us.


I couldn't have said it better -- and this is soooooo much better than what I had suggested initially.


Originally Posted By: Sand Tiger
As for the comments by others about a separate recital, it is an idea worth considering. However, it would be small. Most true beginners have a hard time finding their way around the forum, recording, and uploading, and may not even find a true beginner recital before they are up and out of that group. There are always a few first submitters. Putting them in their own small recital has its pluses and minuses.

It may encourage two or three more to submit.


I think small is good in this case. If the net effect were to essentially split the existing recital, that would be a bad thing. I'd be just as opposed as anyone else in that case.

Originally Posted By: Sand Tiger
The question becomes whether it is worth the extra work for two or three more?

Fortunately, being an all volunteer force here, that can be determined simply based on the willingness of those who would choose to invest their time in it.

Originally Posted By: Sand Tiger
The number of listeners would likely go way down. How many intermediates are going to sign up to listen to ten beginners playing beginner pieces? There is no reward for the listener, certainly not the casual listener. With the intermediates segregated out, they have little incentive to listen and comment.


I don't see it that way, and I hope we'll have the chance to find out. I think there is a healthy block of folks on the AOTW thread who love to be willfully positive despite all evidence to the contrary. I bet they would turn out in spades! smile


My $.02 worth is that this is something to chew on for a while.

Some food for thought though -- Doesn't the current status quo of pieces/songs and quality thereof indicate that the recitals (not just quarterly) are at such a level that they are inherently not comfortable for true beginners to participate?

Continuing to debate, poke, prod, and discuss ways to give them ("us" actually, since I consider myself mostly in this group still) a special spot for sharing their efforts is a worthy endeavor!

Back to the broader forum question briefly:

Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
The only problem I have is the inaccurate heading of the word 'beginner' in our forum. Why?, because as you say (correctly) only a very small minority is actually a true beginner. The idea of adding an 'Intermediate' group OR renaming our existing ABF group to include the word 'Intermediate' would of course be more factually accurate. But once again, the concept never sticks. We all discuss it as a group only for it to ultimately die out.

I think there is a very simple reason for this, which is:

This is a true community. Why would we want to split up this community for the sake of something as trivial as our differing piano skills?

Ironic, eh?

smile
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

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#2067141 - 04/19/13 01:38 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH




This is a true community. Why would we want to split up this community for the sake of something as trivial as our differing piano skills?

Ironic, eh?

smile


Yes it is ironic. Ironic in the fact that the person who originally started this thread referred to the seasoned members as OCD and wanted to kick them out of the recital because they were getting too good. Only kidding though...(sorta).

Funny thing is Tallguy, I can clearly remember your request in the last recital for members to give you only real, helpful feedback. No fluffy BS. So I honored your request and listened to your entire performance very carefully. I listened to it twice actually and then gave you my honest feedback at length in order to offer constructive feedback while providing you with positive reinforcement.

If we are to take your suggestion and toss the seasoned members, then the constructive feedback that you seeking won't be there because,...well,...you tossed us.

Now that's what I call ironic! Eh?

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#2067155 - 04/19/13 02:30 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Saranoya]
peterws Offline
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Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3605
Loc: Northern England.
Saranoya - Just let me say this. My wife played a piece o` Chopin with a fast bit in the middle. People loved to hear it. She played the fast bit twice as slow as most; speed was difficult for her (arthritis had not been diagnosed then). She got her grade 8 theory and used it well. She was a good teacher to many. . . . and did paid playing work in many public places.
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#2067157 - 04/19/13 02:32 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
AimeeO Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 803
Loc: New Orleans
The last recital was the first time I've participated in the ABF quarterly recitals. Yet I've been lurking/intermittently posting for a few years.

It obviously took me a while to do it. At first, I was overwhelmed by the great talent. To be perfectly honest, I also felt overwhelmed at the thought listening to so many pieces and commenting on them(that's just what I feel obligated to do if I post my own piece). It didn't help that one of my biggest weakness in learning piano is polishing a piece. I probably wouldn't have even participated in the ABF quarterly recital if I hadn't been peer-pressured(hehehe) into filling in a spot in a themed recital. But I'll tell you what - the kind words and encouragement I received from forum members after posting my first recording made me want to participate more. It's certainly a confidence builder - after you post your first piece, warts and all, you find that people are still supportive. I've always known what a great bunch we have here, but taking that first step is such a major hurdle!
I don't think we need to separate the quarterly recital. It's fun listening to the different levels, and it's a great way to expose yourself to different styles and different composers. But another option, maybe, would be for a beginner to perhaps start an ongoing "true beginner" thread dedicated to people who feel overwhelmed by everyone else but want to try posting a piece. ( I know we have a monthly piano bar that's casual, but everyone there is super talented too!). Obviously a true beginner will have to step up and start it, but I think if you can get people past that first hurdle, it won't feel like such a big deal to participate in other things.

And that's my 2 cents. Feel free to toss it over your shoulder or stick in your car's ashtray for later:)



Edited by AimeeO (04/19/13 02:34 PM)

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#2067178 - 04/19/13 03:14 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Monica K. Offline

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Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
AimeeO, I really like your idea. thumb An ongoing "first recording" thread could very well be the low pressure and supportive environment that could be the tipping point to encourage newbies to participate. It would also require no extra work on anybody's part; all it would take is for somebody to start a thread. smile We could have such a thread stickied in the "Important Topics" thread as well.
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#2067185 - 04/19/13 03:29 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Monica K.]
Saranoya Offline
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Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 620
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
AimeeO, I really like your idea. thumb An ongoing "first recording" thread could very well be the low pressure and supportive environment that could be the tipping point to encourage newbies to participate. It would also require no extra work on anybody's part; all it would take is for somebody to start a thread. smile We could have such a thread stickied in the "Important Topics" thread as well.


+1!

Even though I jumped way ahead and volunteered for a task that hadn't even been created yet not half a page ago, I actually agree with the "it ain't broke, so don't fix it" assessment of the quarterly recital as it exists today.

I do recognise, however, the intimidation factor involved in participating in the recital for the first time. An ongoing "first recording" thread could help alleviate that, by letting the 'newbies' experience first-hand what a supportive environment the ABF really is. And it would have none of the complications of trying to decide who goes where if we started a second recital.
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#2067189 - 04/19/13 03:36 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
jotur Offline
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I like the thread idea, too - it could be pointed to in lots of other threads when people are posting how new they are - informal, but definitely a "first timers" place.

Cathy
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#2067197 - 04/19/13 03:47 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Monica K.]
aTallGuyNH Offline
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Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 508
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
AimeeO, I really like your idea. thumb An ongoing "first recording" thread could very well be the low pressure and supportive environment that could be the tipping point to encourage newbies to participate. It would also require no extra work on anybody's part; all it would take is for somebody to start a thread. smile We could have such a thread stickied in the "Important Topics" thread as well.


I love it... great idea AimeeO!

Could one of us cheat and create it despite having recorded and posted previously? smile
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

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#2067199 - 04/19/13 03:52 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
aTallGuyNH Offline
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Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 508
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
This is a true community. Why would we want to split up this community for the sake of something as trivial as our differing piano skills?

Ironic, eh?

smile


Yes it is ironic. Ironic in the fact that the person who originally started this thread referred to the seasoned members as OCD and wanted to kick them out of the recital because they were getting too good. Only kidding though...(sorta).

Funny thing is Tallguy, I can clearly remember your request in the last recital for members to give you only real, helpful feedback. No fluffy BS. So I honored your request and listened to your entire performance very carefully. I listened to it twice actually and then gave you my honest feedback at length in order to offer constructive feedback while providing you with positive reinforcement.

If we are to take your suggestion and toss the seasoned members, then the constructive feedback that you seeking won't be there because,...well,...you tossed us.

Now that's what I call ironic! Eh?

Well, for the record, I was completely kidding about kicking or tossing anyone out of anything. I hope that was clear. frown

The non-fluffy, real feedback I rec'd was greatly appreciated! (although I have been remiss in getting back to the thread to convey that in more detail than a general statement I made a couple weeks later)
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

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#2067209 - 04/19/13 04:14 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
JimF Offline
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Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: south florida
I have never managed to actually make a submission to the online recital, but I would like to be kicked off please....barred for life if possible. grin

Then I won't feel so guilty for not participating. sick

Two other random thoughts:

1) This is a very dynamic group, meaning someone just starting out will improve an awful lot over the course of a year or two. Same with restarters just picking it up again. The concept of "beginner" is a moving target and can't really be defined. People are better than other people (at the moment)who are better than other people (at the moment) etc, etc....so what?

2) Simple is good. There's the piano bar for everyday stuff. There's quarterly ABF recitals if you're so inclined. And there's the Pianists Corner and Member Submission threads for truly advanced players, or people who would like to argue the finer points. If you don't feel you fit in anwhere in the current scheme, there is nothing stopping you from starting the "Play in Our Own Sandbox" thread for whatever purpose it would serve.
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#2067210 - 04/19/13 04:18 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
AimeeO, I really like your idea. thumb An ongoing "first recording" thread could very well be the low pressure and supportive environment that could be the tipping point to encourage newbies to participate. It would also require no extra work on anybody's part; all it would take is for somebody to start a thread. smile We could have such a thread stickied in the "Important Topics" thread as well.


I love it... great idea AimeeO!

Could one of us cheat and create it despite having recorded and posted previously? smile


I think AimeeO should create it. Even though she has already posted her first recording, it is her idea and she could introduce the idea and invite folks to post their first recording in PW! --- but only ONE as it has to be the first!

We could link it with a thread for instructions on how to record and upload- we certainly have a number of those!

Folks could be invited to re-state a bit of their personal history too, say how long they've been playing, what kind of piano--- similar stuff to what we put in the recital info when we submit.

Then just ast BBPlayer to sticky it!
Bingo! Voilà ! Ecco fatto!
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XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067214 - 04/19/13 04:24 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: casinitaly]
jotur Offline
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Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5529
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
Ecco fatto!


Well, we have an Ecco Cafe here that serves gelato, and it certainly makes me fat! Don't know how it's connected to first recordings, tho laugh

Cathy
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#2067218 - 04/19/13 04:30 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: jotur]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: jotur
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
Ecco fatto!


Well, we have an Ecco Cafe here that serves gelato, and it certainly makes me fat! Don't know how it's connected to first recordings, tho laugh

Cathy


Ecco Cafe would mean "Here's the Coffee" (though it would be written "caffè" in Italian. Ecco fatto means "There, it's done!"
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067219 - 04/19/13 04:32 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
jotur Offline
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Posts: 5529
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
So it's related,I bet, to "Ecce homo", no?

Cathy
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#2067223 - 04/19/13 04:38 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: jotur]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: jotur
So it's related,I bet, to "Ecce homo", no?

Cathy


Absolutely.
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067259 - 04/19/13 05:32 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: casinitaly]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 508
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
I think AimeeO should create it. Even though she has already posted her first recording, it is her idea and she could introduce the idea and invite folks to post their first recording in PW! --- but only ONE as it has to be the first!

Very apropos... I hope AimeeO is game for doing that.

I hereby retract all my stupid ideas suggested above.

Is it too late to change the name of this thread to something less obnoxious?
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

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#2067274 - 04/19/13 05:55 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
I think AimeeO should create it. Even though she has already posted her first recording, it is her idea and she could introduce the idea and invite folks to post their first recording in PW! --- but only ONE as it has to be the first!

Very apropos... I hope AimeeO is game for doing that.

I hereby retract all my stupid ideas suggested above.

Is it too late to change the name of this thread to something less obnoxious?


You could report the post and ask a mod to do it, or you could write directly to Greg (BB PLayer) and ask him.
.....but what will the new title be? Ah , there's the rub.
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067279 - 04/19/13 06:05 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
EdwardianPiano Offline
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Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 752
Loc: Liverpool, England
Well I am a true beginner and have only recorded myself on my mobile, and then found out I have a sound recorder programme on my netbook so recorded myself playing the first bar of the Bach minuet I am working on and it'd be AGES before I can play the first page let alone the second! But I do hope I will be able to play this piece and one day upload it. Or you can have me playing an Alfred's piece - badly!! blush
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#2067296 - 04/19/13 06:27 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: casinitaly]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 508
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
Is it too late to change the name of this thread to something less obnoxious?


You could report the post and ask a mod to do it, or you could write directly to Greg (BB PLayer) and ask him.
.....but what will the new title be? Ah , there's the rub.

How about this for a new title?: "Skip to Post# 2067157... please" smile
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

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#2067300 - 04/19/13 06:39 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Ganddalf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 636
Loc: Norway
Maybe those of us who have been playing for some years rather should spend our efforts on themed recitals like the upcomng Mendelssohn recital. At least this can not be reserved for beginners only. I'd like to see a beginner (adult or not) playing the "Spinnerlied".

Or maybe a Veterans' Sandbox should be created. We are facing challenges different from the newbies, meeting the inevitable consequences of age. We can't expect to continue improving for ever, but more likely we'll have to face decaying skills.

Just some thoughts....


Edited by Ganddalf (04/19/13 06:40 PM)

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#2067397 - 04/20/13 12:26 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Ganddalf]
AimeeO Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 803
Loc: New Orleans
Wow! I'm glad you guys like the idea. Monica and Cas, you've actually taken it in more directions than I was initially thinking, and I think they're excellent ideas that should be implemented. I have no problems starting the thread.. just give me a few days to finish and recover from the Mendelssohn recital(I am procrastinating as we speak!). I want to make sure I word it properly and have all my links in a row!

I was thinking about naming it, and think it would be kind of fun to take from Cas and Cathy and name it Ecco Fatto Cafe, because I think we all know those weird feelings of dread and relief after we submit, and the phrase "There, it's done!" sums it up quite nicely on many levels.

Any other suggestions anyone may have, whether they be related to name or ground rules, are more than welcome. smile


Originally Posted By: Ganddalf
Maybe those of us who have been playing for some years rather should spend our efforts on themed recitals like the upcomng Mendelssohn recital.


The themed recitals are fun! But I would rather see you more experienced players spend time on both, when time allows(it can be hard!), than rather. The variety of levels and genres make the quarterly recitals successful, and it would be missing something important if you stopped participating. After all, many of you have built it up to where it is now, and that's something to be proud of.

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#2067405 - 04/20/13 12:47 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Ganddalf]
Whizbang Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 759
Originally Posted By: Ganddalf
Maybe those of us who have been playing for some years rather should spend our efforts on themed recitals like the upcomng Mendelssohn recital.


Ragtime recital?
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#2067441 - 04/20/13 03:36 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
AimeeO --- great! I will look forward to seeing your thread launched - and I think it is cool you're thinking of "Ecco Fatto Cafe" as the title. Of course it will take some explaining, but it sounds extremely friendly and inviting smile

I think now that we've seen several themed recitals appear there's a good chance that more will come along ----Whizbang ---a ragtime recital would be a hoot -and there are a lot of folks who play a bit of ragtime, at various levels. Why not start up a thread?

Gandalf, I don't think our vetran players should be restricted to the themed recitals - but the Vetran Sandbox has a certain logic to it. It is inevitable that a general thread talking about ...vision issues for example, might get a lot of replies from all and sundry -but if the word Vetran or senior is in the title that should flag it to those it is meant for.

Seems to me that this thread has brought about a delicious number of positive comments and great ideas!
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067486 - 04/20/13 07:24 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Ganddalf]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3605
Loc: Northern England.
but more likely we'll have to face decaying skills.

We love to be reminded thus!! frown
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#2067507 - 04/20/13 08:35 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
keystring Online   content
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Posts: 11675
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I've read this thread over a bunch of times. The biggest thought I have is that members here have such a variety of backgrounds, and I'll get back to that. One immediate issue is about true beginners, for whom doing a very first recital is intimidating, and may need a "first recital for true beginners" kind of place - I like what was suggested about that.

I joined this forum shortly after I got a piano a bit over 5 years ago. Because of some complicated reasons involving what had happened before, I didn't dare do much with the piano until I could get with a teacher so I did very few things on piano, and spent most of my time learning theory and music history. Listening to others play when I wasn't really playing made me sad which is why (to answer your question Monika) I'm late in exploring the quarterly recitals. I finally dared post something of mine here for the first time ever, in the April thread. That was a big step. It's not just that I have been working with a teacher on piano for around year now, but also that the notions of it being "dangerous" to do anything on your own was also trashed for good. So if I can play, then I can post in PW, and that made me look at these recitals.

Having come that far, here's this thread. I've been trying to put my finger on what's spooking me. The idea of anyone comparing is one. We're all learning, solving our playing issues etc. so for me everyone's on a personal journey, and we're following that person's growth. I wouldn't want to compare or be compared. The idea makes me uncomfortable. Any idea of "levels" people are at, or categories they're in, ditto. There seems to be this idea floating around that there are these smooth levels like when you have public school, high school and college, where everyone has been streamed through the same system. If I see anything, it might be described as "hotch potch" or "big mess to be sorted out" for a lot of us. If we were all sorted and ready to go, we'd probably be in the Pianist forum.

I don't know how many are in my kind of shoes - meaning all over the map in regards to what they can do. I'm digging myself out of a cement block as far as physical playing is concerned and have one thing sorted out: chords. The piece I put out has two aspects: it's all chords (only one kind of technique to work with), and it's short (lots of time to work on it). "Level" isn't there. I've learned a lot about how to work on music in steps, so I can make it sound nice, but that might mask the physical struggles going on - all the things being sorted out. I think there must be a lot of people who have a mixed bag like this. The ABF is a safe place where we can come with our strengths and weaknesses. I think that the very fact that we are adults and have such hugely different and varied histories, means that everything has to be very individual. I couldn't find the words, but it's something like that.

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#2067515 - 04/20/13 08:54 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: keystring]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: keystring
I've read this thread over a bunch of times. The biggest thought I have is that members here have such a variety of backgrounds, and I'll get back to that. One immediate issue is about true beginners, for whom doing a very first recital is intimidating, and may need a "first recital for true beginners" kind of place - I like what was suggested about that.

I joined this forum shortly after I got a piano a bit over 5 years ago. Because of some complicated reasons involving what had happened before, I didn't dare do much with the piano until I could get with a teacher so I did very few things on piano, and spent most of my time learning theory and music history. Listening to others play when I wasn't really playing made me sad which is why (to answer your question Monika) I'm late in exploring the quarterly recitals. I finally dared post something of mine here for the first time ever, in the April thread. That was a big step. It's not just that I have been working with a teacher on piano for around year now, but also that the notions of it being "dangerous" to do anything on your own was also trashed for good. So if I can play, then I can post in PW, and that made me look at these recitals.

Having come that far, here's this thread. I've been trying to put my finger on what's spooking me. The idea of anyone comparing is one. We're all learning, solving our playing issues etc. so for me everyone's on a personal journey, and we're following that person's growth. I wouldn't want to compare or be compared. The idea makes me uncomfortable. Any idea of "levels" people are at, or categories they're in, ditto. There seems to be this idea floating around that there are these smooth levels like when you have public school, high school and college, where everyone has been streamed through the same system. If I see anything, it might be described as "hotch potch" or "big mess to be sorted out" for a lot of us. If we were all sorted and ready to go, we'd probably be in the Pianist forum.

I don't know how many are in my kind of shoes - meaning all over the map in regards to what they can do. I'm digging myself out of a cement block as far as physical playing is concerned and have one thing sorted out: chords. The piece I put out has two aspects: it's all chords (only one kind of technique to work with), and it's short (lots of time to work on it). "Level" isn't there. I've learned a lot about how to work on music in steps, so I can make it sound nice, but that might mask the physical struggles going on - all the things being sorted out. I think there must be a lot of people who have a mixed bag. The ABF is a safe place where we can come with our strengths and weaknesses. I think that the very fact that we are adults and have such hugely different and varied histories, means that everything has to be very individual. I couldn't find the words, but it's something like that.


A couple of comments:

-People compare, it can't be helped. However, I don't think it's bad if it is done in a good light. Like, "I want to be able to play that piece someday" is a positive thing, a motivation or inspiration. Something like, "I'm going to catch up with so-and-so" is not only destructive, but impossible.

-There are no levels, I agree. I know of people on this forum who play beautifully and I enjoy that, even if I play more complicated pieces. There is something of value in anyone's recording, and it's not necessarily all wrapped up in a neat list of skills.

-With the above two things in mind, I think it is productive to not necessarily set limits on who can and can't participate. No money is at stake here, no "winner" is chosen, not even bragging rights for the best performance. Plus, how would you even segregate who can and can't play? Based on years of study? Some people study for a very short amount of time and progress very quickly. Level of piece? What exactly would be considered "intermediate"? Most teachers cannot agree on these levels, so how would anyone be able to for these recitals?

Just some things to think about.
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#2067530 - 04/20/13 09:16 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Morodiene]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene

-People compare, it can't be helped. However, I don't think it's bad if it is done in a good light. Like, "I want to be able to play that piece someday" is a positive thing, a motivation or inspiration. Something like, "I'm going to catch up with so-and-so" is not only destructive, but impossible.


Yes, exactly. The thing I was sensing (hence hard to put into words) was that if a more experienced person plays nicely, that this will make the less experienced person feel bad. ATallGuy, that's what I got when reading your post. That's an uncomfortable feeling on both sides. I like your "in good light" point, Morodiene. How I see it is "What is this person doing to get there, and can I use any of it myself?" (now or eventually).

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#2067543 - 04/20/13 09:43 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
rnaple Offline

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I"m afraid this new recital will die. Unless it's expanded some.

Although I can understand the OP's point.
It can be taken care of with more support and encouragement from the more experienced players. Make it a point to encourage people obviously less experienced.
I also think the new recital could be more fun. It's not a bad idea.
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#2067549 - 04/20/13 10:03 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Saranoya Offline
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Posts: 620
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
I think we're beating a dead horse here. As I understand it, both the ranking system for the current recital and the instigation of a new one have been considered and rejected as solutions to the problem (that the idea of taking part in the recital can be intimidating due to the level some people play at, and that therefore, some people don't do it even though they'd like to).

AimeeO proposed something better (an ongoing "first recording" thread), and we pretty much all agreed that was a good idea, fraught with many fewer complications than the other two.

So, Aimee ... we're waiting on you to put your idea into action wink ...
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Future
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#2067559 - 04/20/13 10:49 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Saranoya]
Valencia Offline
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just curious--why limit a beginner thread to 'first recording'? This seems extremely limiting and will surely make any such thread die out quickly,unless I'm not understanding what is meant by that? why not let people post as many recordings of theirs as they would like, for as long as they would like? A person may still feel beginnerish after a single recording or single piece is what I'm thinking.

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#2067575 - 04/20/13 11:17 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Saranoya Offline
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Indeed. But if we don't limit it to the first recording, then we're basically just duplicating the Piano Bar, which is casual and open to everyone, and which, by its very nature (a new thread every month, no pre-announcements, no special submissions page, and generally shorter pieces) already signals being less formal and hefty than the quarterly recital. Doesn't it?

We could limit this thread to the first-timers, as a place to stick their toe in, experiment with recording methods, and experience the friendly atmosphere first-hand. And when they show an interest in sharing more, point them to the Bar.

Or not?
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Beginner with some priors since 9/2012

Currently Playable
Bach 846, 926, 930
Beethoven 27/2 mvt. 1
Burgmüller 100/3, 4, 7, 12, 15, 19, 25
Chopin 72/1
Clementi 36/1
Grieg 12/1, 7
Tchaikovsky 39/9

Future
Burgmüller 109
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Mozart K331

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#2067579 - 04/20/13 11:29 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
jotur Offline
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I think Saranoya's right - there really are a lot of ways to post one's playing, and this *is* the Adult Beginners Forum. I think what we're addressing here is those folks who haven't convinced themselves that the piano bar and the recital are friendly places even tho our levels of playing have a broad range and many different genres.

But this *is* a friendly place, and the bar and the recitals really *are* welcoming to people of all levels and genres. It's just that, for some people, it's hard to not let the skill level of others overwhelm them. So that drowns out the recordings of the folks who are closer to "beginner" level (whatever that is laugh - don't look at me). So if they can post one recording in a thread which is dedicated to first recordings, and actually experience the friendliness, then maybe they can be encouraged to do the bar and the recitals, and actually believe that it's going to be like that there, too.

From reading about the Mendolson recital, it seems there's a wide range of "levels" in that, too, from some people who are fairly novice, to teachers. All of our stuff here is like that.

So, I *think* the idea is to have a "get your feet wet" place, not a "get your feet in cement" place laugh

Cathy
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#2067580 - 04/20/13 11:32 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
jotur Offline
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Oh, and I think that if you want to post your first piece in the bar or the recital, well, do so. There's nothing mandatory about the "first recording" thread - they're all there as opportunities.

Cathy
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#2067581 - 04/20/13 11:36 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: jotur]
Saranoya Offline
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Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: jotur
So if they can post one recording in a thread which is dedicated to first recordings, and actually experience the friendliness, then maybe they can be encouraged to do the bar and the recitals, and actually believe that it's going to be like that there, too.

So, I *think* the idea is to have a "get your feet wet" place, not a "get your feet in cement" place laugh


Exactly!

Thank you, Cathy, for expressing my thoughts better than I did wink.
_________________________
Beginner with some priors since 9/2012

Currently Playable
Bach 846, 926, 930
Beethoven 27/2 mvt. 1
Burgmüller 100/3, 4, 7, 12, 15, 19, 25
Chopin 72/1
Clementi 36/1
Grieg 12/1, 7
Tchaikovsky 39/9

Future
Burgmüller 109
Bartok Sz 56
Mozart K331

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#2067716 - 04/20/13 05:26 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
WiseBuff Offline
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Maybe we could retitle our favorite forum to "Beginner and Beyond"
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#2067729 - 04/20/13 06:09 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Ganddalf Offline
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Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 636
Loc: Norway
My impression, although it may be wrong, is that the Pianist Corner is for professionals and young students.
Of course the line between amateur and professional may be somewhat vague, but for an amateur without a diploma and with virtually no professional guidance the Pianist Corner doesn't seem to be the right playground. I would really like to see an "Amateur Pianist Forum". After all nobody remains a beginner for unlimited time, and a forum for just adult beginners would have a very limited target group.

Actually, what I try to say is that when looking at the forum titles, there are quite a few of us who do not belong anywhere. I decided not to be to strict about these titles, but if somebody feel offended by my presence and activity I prefer looking for other options and not make more contributions to the recitals.

I'm aware that my present level is at least average amateur level, but when I was a true beginner, I played extremely badly. Therefore I'm generally impressed by what I hear from the less experienced participants at the quarterly recitals.

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#2067731 - 04/20/13 06:14 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
jotur Offline
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I guess there's no way to actually cover everyone - to me, the Pianist Corner is almost entirely classically oriented, and pretty serious classical (tho it's not my impression that it's mostly professional and student). And, as I've said, I don't play classical.

So for those whose interest may be serious, but not quite pianist corner, and there are many, and those of us who play other genres recreationally (tho we, too, may be serious) the ABF turns out to be the most broadly welcoming forum.

Works for me.

Cathy
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#2067734 - 04/20/13 06:29 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Morodiene Online   content
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I, too, have always wondered if I should contribute to recitals. I did once and while I didn't experience any issues from it, I was hesitant that it would not be well-received. But I wanted to participate and so I did. I'm doing the Mendelssohn one because it was opened to Piano Forum people so I felt it was OK for that as well. While I'm a teacher, I still consider myself a student and there's always the next thing to learn. I do not perform except to accompany, so for me doing the occasional recital is a means to motivate myself to learn something new to the point of being relatively performable. I think this forum has done well with not letting jealousy or insecurities take over. I am not against having a beginner recital, of course, but it would be very hard to define.
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#2067743 - 04/20/13 06:42 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
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As previously mentioned, this topic comes up perpetually. I purposely didn't say constantly because even if we all decide to just leave things alone [As has always been the case after deep, thorough discussions], it will NOT be a permanent fix. It will only be a temporary fix for the current active members.

As time,(a year or two) go by, the EXACT same problem will reappear as it always has as long as I've been here. (8 years now).

I have seen several cycles of this same problem come and go so please, PLEASE,...let's stop practicing our mistakes!.

If we address this problem once and for all, it will be just that....addressed! it WON'T come back!

So what is the solution? How about we let the facts decide what to do and this time, for once, do it.

The facts:

. The group as a whole does not want to be broken up.
. The true beginners may become intimidated to participate
. Seasoned players don't want to be penalized or excluded

Um, well I think that is it. So let's have a recital that doesn't break up the group as a whole. One that does not exclude/penalize the advanced players while also not intimidating the true beginners.

Sound good so far? good.

So now we can just have our regularly scheduled quarterly recitals which will just have separate headings within it. Something to the effect of 'true Beginners' and 'seasoned beginners' [I'm not stuck on the actual names, just the concept].

This simple, yet effective plan will work. Anyone who has been playing one year or less can [if they want to] go under the true beginner heading/section of the recital. Everyone else goes under the regular beginner/seasoned beginner category.

This plan will work. It is sustainable, and does NOT need to be overcomplicated. Furthermore, there is NO reason why this topic will have to keep coming up again either constantly or perpetually.

Now let's eat!

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#2067747 - 04/20/13 07:00 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
-Frycek Offline
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I'll even enter if you include an Experienced but Hopeless category. wink
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#2067750 - 04/20/13 07:04 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: sinophilia]
gooddog Offline
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Posts: 4794
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Originally Posted By: sinophilia
I've always interpreted 'adult beginner' as somebody who starts or restarts piano playing as an adult; plus, most of the times (but there are exceptions) we are amateurs with no professional goals in mind.

When I joined PW 5 years ago, ABF seemed like the right place for me because I was a returning amateur, getting back into the piano after a 20 year hiatus. I was very excited to find a place where other adults were uncovering old skills while facing adult responsibilities. To my great dismay, I was very quickly and not very politely told that I was "too advanced" for ABF and to please go away. I drifted over to Pianist's Corner, a somewhat more intimidating place but I was made to feel more welcome there. To this day, I rarely visit ABF. When I do, I carefully guard what I say, never refer to the music I am working on and I do not participate in the recitals.

What is my point? The title of the forum says "Beginners". Part of the introduction says "just starting or returning to". If the introduction welcomes me as a returning amateur and the members do not, it's like a smack in the face and it hurts. Make up your mind. Drop the "returning to" or make everyone welcome.

Currently working on:
Chopin Ballade #3
Beethoven Sonata #18 Opus 31, #3
Mozart Sonata #14, K457
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#2067760 - 04/20/13 07:20 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: gooddog]
CebuKid Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1176
Originally Posted By: gooddog
Originally Posted By: sinophilia
I've always interpreted 'adult beginner' as somebody who starts or restarts piano playing as an adult; plus, most of the times (but there are exceptions) we are amateurs with no professional goals in mind.

When I joined PW 5 years ago, ABF seemed like the right place for me because I was a returning amateur, getting back into the piano after a 20 year hiatus. I was very excited to find a place where other adults were uncovering old skills while facing adult responsibilities. To my great dismay, I was very quickly and not very politely told that I was "too advanced" for ABF and to please go away. I drifted over to Pianist's Corner, a somewhat more intimidating place but I was made to feel more welcome there. To this day, I rarely visit ABF. When I do, I carefully guard what I say, never refer to the music I am working on and I do not participate in the recitals.

What is my point? The title of the forum says "Beginners". Part of the introduction says "just starting or returning to". If the introduction welcomes me as a returning amateur and the members do not, it's like a smack in the face and it hurts. Make up your mind. Drop the "returning to" or make everyone welcome.

Currently working on:
Chopin Ballade #3
Beethoven Sonata #18 Opus 31, #3
Mozart Sonata #14, K457


It's been awhile since I've been here and *this* thread (a dead horse) is the first thing I see...lol.

I'd have to kind of agree with GoodDog...there was a user here (relatively advanced) who posted a Chopin etude a couple of years back, and received some criticism for being "too advanced" for the ABF recital. I guess whether it's here or the PC, there are critics everywhere.

An intermediate forum is a great idea but it ruins the "big brother" feeling that us adult intermediates have on the true beginners or earlier intermediates. We were once there - whether a true beginner or a returning adult - and we like to encourage the beginners. I still say - let's leave things alone and move on. smile I hope to participate again soon myself too.
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#2067767 - 04/20/13 07:34 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Valencia]
Peyton Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Valencia
just curious--why limit a beginner thread to 'first recording'? This seems extremely limiting and will surely make any such thread die out quickly,unless I'm not understanding what is meant by that? why not let people post as many recordings of theirs as they would like, for as long as they would like? A person may still feel beginnerish after a single recording or single piece is what I'm thinking.


I think a thread of real beginners first recordings (not just the first) would be fantastic.

And for what it's worth.. I've been participating in the recitals from almost the start and have never "compared" playing. Certainly not in a competing fashion. Really. If I were a professional I guess I would but as an amateur I just listen and enjoy, or not. I may hear a piece played really well and wish I could do that but that is a good thing. For instance, Sam S., an excellent player and certainly no "real beginner" played Shumann's Arabesque in the last recital. It inspired me to find the music and try it myself. I would not even think to compare my playing to Sams. That's what is so great about these recitals...they are inspiring.
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#2067773 - 04/20/13 07:58 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
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Gooddog, I have no idea who might have told you not to hang out here, but I've been here for 3 years and have never seen any posts of that nature. I think that since that time the atmosphere in the forum is more welcoming and hospitable. There are a lotof folks around ABF now who play very sophisticated material and to my knowledge there haven't been any sort of "go away" comments (ok, except maybe for this thread..in a way smile )
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#2067777 - 04/20/13 08:14 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
Gooddog, I don't get it either. I have never seen that wording here ever and for one person to say that is absurd. Nobody even has that authority. To be honest, I can't even think of anyone in the past who stands out as 'should be a professional' right now.

The only person who seemed that good was that guy Philip Mills but I haven't seen him around for a while. Maybe he actually did go pro.

Anyway, Gooddog, nobody has the right or authority to say that to you. Please tell Greg or Frank who it was so they can handle it.

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#2067780 - 04/20/13 08:19 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Deborah, I'm just curious but was that a PM or a post? I agree with Casi and SH that that is very out of character on this forum. I've never seen any thing like it.
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#2067836 - 04/21/13 01:34 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
gooddog Offline
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Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4794
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Peyton and Mr-Super-Hunky, it was so long ago, I just don't remember who it was. I suppose I could do a search but it would be going back years and hundreds of posts and there really isn't much point. Since then, during my infrequent visits to ABF, I have found it to be a very friendly place.
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Deborah

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#2067859 - 04/21/13 04:23 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: casinitaly]
-Frycek Offline
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Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
Gooddog, I have no idea who might have told you not to hang out here, but I've been here for 3 years and have never seen any posts of that nature. I think that since that time the atmosphere in the forum is more welcoming and hospitable. There are a lotof folks around ABF now who play very sophisticated material and to my knowledge there haven't been any sort of "go away" comments (ok, except maybe for this thread..in a way smile )



I also have no idea who might've told Gooddog to go away but it may very well have been done through PM's. I was pretty much told the same thing but not because I was too good. Not by a long way. I was told because I "have no technique." Believe me I'd download some if I could. I honestly didn't think I was that bad for returning after a thiry year hiatus but evidently I was mistaken. That was about five years ago and I withdrew from the Chopin themed recitals and have refrained from posting in any recital since. I know who told me this. It was a respected member here and the one other person who is privy to the incident has tried to persuade me it was kindly meant. However it was meant, it had a chilling effect. I'd no more post a recording here now than I'd stick my hand into a steel trap.
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#2067862 - 04/21/13 04:43 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: -Frycek]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
I know who told me this. It was a respected member here...... and the one other person who is privy to the incident has tried to persuade me it was kindly meant. However it was meant, it had a chilling effect. I'd no more post a recording here now than I'd stick my hand into a steel trap.


-Frycek, I'd have trouble believing such a comment was kindly meant too- and I have to say I don't have any respect for a member who is unable to provide criticism in a way that encourages rather than so completely destroys the will to participate!!!!!

I can see why you'd be reluctant to think of participating again -- I can only repeat that I sincerely believe things must have changed since these events took place.
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067872 - 04/21/13 05:28 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3605
Loc: Northern England.
Reckon you`re always gonna get the odd comment/opinion which ranckles more than somewhat. When I started posting on the piano forum, I nearly got thrown off for daring to suggest acoustic pianos were hopelessly out of date . . .there are some clever influencial guys there (in high places maybe?) who don`t mince their vitriol.

It was fun! grin


Edited by peterws (04/21/13 05:43 AM)
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#2067875 - 04/21/13 05:57 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: -Frycek]
Sam S Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1415
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: -Frycek


I also have no idea who might've told Gooddog to go away but it may very well have been done through PM's. I was pretty much told the same thing but not because I was too good. Not by a long way. I was told because I "have no technique." Believe me I'd download some if I could. I honestly didn't think I was that bad for returning after a thiry year hiatus but evidently I was mistaken. That was about five years ago and I withdrew from the Chopin themed recitals and have refrained from posting in any recital since. I know who told me this. It was a respected member here and the one other person who is privy to the incident has tried to persuade me it was kindly meant. However it was meant, it had a chilling effect. I'd no more post a recording here now than I'd stick my hand into a steel trap.


Frycek, I'm so sorry this happened to you. Maybe it was the recital - I think that the ABF recitals are a welcoming place and the comments are overwhelmingly polite and supportive. I see that you did participate in three recitals. Please consider participating again - we would love to have you back!

Sam

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#2067903 - 04/21/13 07:41 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
I think when dealing with the internet we must have somewhat a thick skin. Even on such well moderated forums such as this one (and this is extremely well moderated compared to some others I have been on) you are going to get the occasional callus comment. It's also very easy to misinterpret someones comment. In fact, Frycek do you remember when someone totally misunderstood something I had said and took it as a slight and you came on to defend me? I really appreciated that and he ended up seeing how he had misread and apologized. All that said, I don't blame you for your reaction. Through the years I've had similar experiences on the various forums and at some point have either just left that forum or, as I said, just gotten a thicker skin. There is enough pain here in the real world to have to let something as surreal as the internet add on to that pain.
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#2067904 - 04/21/13 07:42 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: -Frycek]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11902
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
Gooddog, I have no idea who might have told you not to hang out here, but I've been here for 3 years and have never seen any posts of that nature. I think that since that time the atmosphere in the forum is more welcoming and hospitable. There are a lotof folks around ABF now who play very sophisticated material and to my knowledge there haven't been any sort of "go away" comments (ok, except maybe for this thread..in a way smile )



I also have no idea who might've told Gooddog to go away but it may very well have been done through PM's. I was pretty much told the same thing but not because I was too good. Not by a long way. I was told because I "have no technique." Believe me I'd download some if I could. I honestly didn't think I was that bad for returning after a thiry year hiatus but evidently I was mistaken. That was about five years ago and I withdrew from the Chopin themed recitals and have refrained from posting in any recital since. I know who told me this. It was a respected member here and the one other person who is privy to the incident has tried to persuade me it was kindly meant. However it was meant, it had a chilling effect. I'd no more post a recording here now than I'd stick my hand into a steel trap.


Wow. It is easy to say such things on the internet because there are no repercussions sometimes. Perhaps in person everyone in earshot would be appalled and they have at least a modicum of sensitivity to that. But online, unfortunately, it's easy to say harsh things, and who cares about intent? You just don't say stuff like that, EVER.

I hope you did not take to heart the words of one person who bears no significance in your life.
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#2067913 - 04/21/13 08:14 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Btw, just to be perfectly clear -- I see the title of this thread as a humorous attempt to address a point of interest and not in the least bit serious in wanting to "get rid" of anyone!
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2067918 - 04/21/13 08:22 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3574
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
As previously mentioned, this topic comes up perpetually.

As time,(a year or two) go by, the EXACT same problem will reappear as it always has...

I have seen several cycles of this same problem come and go so please, PLEASE,...let's stop practicing our mistakes!.

If we address this problem once and for all, it will be just that....addressed! it WON'T come back!


...there is NO reason why this topic will have to keep coming up again either constantly or perpetually.

Now let's eat!



No reason - but it will - inevitably - unless and until you make current and all future members sign a pledge, under threat of expulsion (after 50 lashes with a wet noodle), not to ever do so.

And we haven't even gotten into the large disparity of abilities regularly witnessed in the Monthly Piano Bars - explosive fuel for an much bigger fire shocked

But, did someone say eat? What's on the menu? Maybe a slice of humble pie? smile
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#2067926 - 04/21/13 09:14 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Sand Tiger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 1041
Loc: Southern California
The main issues seem to have reached a consensus, to have a first recording thread open to anyone to post their first recording. That new person might be a true beginner, or a person with a grade 8 teaching certificate that just restarted, or anywhere in between. There should be links or resources to help a person record and upload. Recording tips for digital, upright, and grand, hosting options (soundcloud, box, youtube), step-by-step instructions would be a great help, because for many, the recording and uploading process is a large hurdle.

Okay, not sure if this is the time or place to add another suggestion, but I was thinking about a "baby picture" thread. The metaphor is musical baby, a place for folks to post links to their first upload from long ago, their first post on the forum if they can find it. A "baby picture" thread would likely be 20x more popular at first than the other new thread, so probably best to keep the musical baby pictures separate from first recordings.

I'm sorry to hear about Gooddog's experience. There are mean people out there, far fewer on the ABF than most Internet forums. However, there are still a few that purposely try to upset or rile up others with their comments. I find it best to ignore them. Engaging them or debating them, gives them what they want. If they don't get a reaction, they get tired and leave.

As Mr. Super-Hunky said, no one has the authority to say what was said to Gooddog. So even if a person has such a strange opinion, it carries no weight. The moderators would never do such a thing, or support such a move.
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#2068079 - 04/21/13 02:58 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
LizAnne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/12
Posts: 98
Chiming in, for what it's worth. I haven't read everything in the thread, but I got the highlights.

When I first found the place, I was excited to have a place for adults who were beginners. After hanging around for a while, I came to realize that most of the people here are adults who began as adults, but who are by no stretch of the imagination beginners at this point. Inspiring, but yes also intimidating.

I have participated in two recitals and it was fun, but it was also embarrassing to listen to a gorgeous playlist, then hear my own bungling attempt somewhere inside and imagining people skipping it.

I understand having levels could cause all kinds of friction for people who don't feel they're in the right level, or who think someone else is not in the right level. But having no levels chases away the beginners AND interrupts the flow of the recital when early or late beginners do participate.

In short... I'd love to have a safe "beginner" recital that's separate from an "advanced" one. But I wouldn't want to be the one fielding the complaints. smile

Maybe have a "beginner to intermediate" level and an "intermediate to advanced" level and allow self-selection, with intermediates having the option of either?

It would be nice to have a more beginner-friendly environment in an adult beginner forum. I've found that the discussions here are often rather dismissive of the true beginners. Not all discussions! Not everyone!! Some are very supportive. Others, not so much...
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#2068108 - 04/21/13 03:55 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: LizAnne]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4378
Loc: Jersey Shore
One rea
Originally Posted By: LizAnne
Chiming in, for what it's worth. I haven't read everything in the thread, but I got the highlights.

When I first found the place, I was excited to have a place for adults who were beginners. After hanging around for a while, I came to realize that most of the people here are adults who began as adults, but who are by no stretch of the imagination beginners at this point. Inspiring, but yes also intimidating.

I have participated in two recitals and it was fun, but it was also embarrassing to listen to a gorgeous playlist, then hear my own bungling attempt somewhere inside and imagining people skipping it.



This is why I like the piano bar so much. Very informal and relaxed, you can post stuff that is not perfect and just enjoy the recordings without any stress. I went this route a couple of years ago and haven't looked back...

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#2068131 - 04/21/13 04:39 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
FarmGirl Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1990
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
I did not notice this thread until now. I am not a beginner but cannot play with such higher caliver demonstrated in the pianist corner. I also do not know so much music history / theory to participate in the discussions and make meaningful contributions. It does not mean that I would not go out there. I frequently read the posts that I'm interested in. It's just not my place. I still need encouragement. I live with a certain shame that playing and studying piano music. If you are good pianist, its ok, they don't have the same problem. Whenever I was asked, "are you any good?", I had to say "no" all the time. Then comes the next question. "Why do you do it then?", well, I answer, "that's a good question. I just like it and cannot quit". It is only this community to which I felt like I can belong without hiding who I am.
_________________________
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#2068145 - 04/21/13 04:52 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
LizAnne, going by which pieces are commented on in the recital threads, people who skip pieces skip by genre, not by level.

I find the variety in the recital to be so great that I do not experience any single piece as interrupting a flow. Every piece stands on its own.

Comments in the recital are extremely generous. When people have suggestions for improvement (and only offered when the submitter has solicited such feedback), they always phrase them kindly.
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#2068148 - 04/21/13 05:01 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mark...]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: LizAnne
I have participated in two recitals and it was fun, but it was also embarrassing to listen to a gorgeous playlist, then hear my own bungling attempt somewhere inside and imagining people skipping it.



I don't skip the beginners, and I know there are LOTS of folks who not only don't skip them --- others make a point of singleling them out and acknowledging their submissions before commenting on the others.

First time submitters usually get a very warm welcome to the recitals, and no one is disdainful of anyone's submissions.

I can only repeat that folks who are intimidated are allowing themselves to miss a great opportunity for support and encouragement.
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2068151 - 04/21/13 05:08 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
I took lessons on another instrument, and I remember talking to my teacher how inadequate I felt, especially in front of advanced musicians. He told me that advanced musicians, above all, know how difficult it is and how many things you need to learn, and their attitude is respect and support. It's the non-musicians who might not appreciate what you're doing. Later when I was more advanced and attended recitals, the absolute beginners were the most interesting, because you could see them grow for recital to recital, and you were rooting for them.

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#2068217 - 04/21/13 08:27 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: WiseBuff]
Stubbie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 390
Loc: Midwest USA
Originally Posted By: WiseBuff
Maybe we could retitle our favorite forum to "Beginner and Beyond"


I take “Adult Beginners…” cum granis salis, but if it causes some people to be uneasy, "Beginner and Beyond" or "Adult Beginner and Beyond" has a good ring to it.

(Easy for me to say change the name, as I have no idea how difficult it would be for the powers that be to do so.)
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#2068269 - 04/21/13 09:55 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: keystring]
MaryBee Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Originally Posted By: keystring
Later when I was more advanced and attended recitals, the absolute beginners were the most interesting, because you could see them grow for recital to recital, and you were rooting for them.
keystring, I was thinking this same thing. I really like hearing the beginners, especially when they continue participating. You start seeing their progress over time, and it's exciting in a way -- kind of like watching a younger sibling grow up. I also have a lot of respect for them, because I know how scared I was when I submitted by first recital piece. And I was not a beginner anymore; although it was the first time I ever played for anyone besides my teacher.
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Current mantra: Play outside the box.
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#2068372 - 04/22/13 01:34 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Stubbie]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Stubbie
Originally Posted By: WiseBuff
Maybe we could retitle our favorite forum to "Beginner and Beyond"


I take “Adult Beginners…” cum granis salis, but if it causes some people to be uneasy, "Beginner and Beyond" or "Adult Beginner and Beyond" has a good ring to it.

(Easy for me to say change the name, as I have no idea how difficult it would be for the powers that be to do so.)


I'm fairly certain that it would be a quick and simple thing to change.....but then I don't know if all the links would work - and THAT could be a REAL problem!

I like "Beginner and Beyond" smile

MaryBee and Keystring - I agree. I'm still at the low end of the spectrum, but there are always newcomers who are "fresher" to the bench than I am and it is great fun to hear what they choose to play - and then listen in the next round to see how they've developed (which is often at a rate significantly faster than my own progress, good on them!!). I know that one of my greatest delights in receiving feedback from others is when someone notices the progress I've made - it is lovely to know someone is paying attention.

_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2068379 - 04/22/13 01:43 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Stubbie]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Stubbie
I take “Adult Beginners…” cum granis salis,

Sorry, I took Latin and am obsessive about the grammar. It should be cum grano salis, since "cum" takes the ablative, and granum is a 2nd declension noun. (Please ignore this if you do not understand it, it really doesn't matter. grin )
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Polyphonist

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#2068387 - 04/22/13 02:05 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Polyphonist]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Stubbie
I take “Adult Beginners…” cum granis salis,

Sorry, I took Latin and am obsessive about the grammar. It should be cum grano salis, since "cum" takes the ablative, and granum is a 2nd declension noun. (Please ignore this if you do not understand it, it really doesn't matter. grin )


Actually it does make sense. I studied Latin too, about a generation ago, and I'm currently re-studying with my 14 year old niece who is learning it for the first time smile
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2068389 - 04/22/13 02:09 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: casinitaly]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Stubbie
I take “Adult Beginners…” cum granis salis,

Sorry, I took Latin and am obsessive about the grammar. It should be cum grano salis, since "cum" takes the ablative, and granum is a 2nd declension noun. (Please ignore this if you do not understand it, it really doesn't matter. grin )


Actually it does make sense. I studied Latin too, about a generation ago, and I'm currently re-studying with my 14 year old niece who is learning it for the first time smile

Hooray! One person who doesn't think I'm a lunatic! ha
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Polyphonist

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#2068577 - 04/22/13 10:48 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Polyphonist]
SwissMS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 736
Loc: Switzerland
I have followed this discussion for its four pages, and I finally decided to add my two cents worth. The first recital submission that I did came from an Alfred's method book. It was scary, because I knew I was outclassed. However everyone was so supportive, that I was inspired to continue submitting every quarter. This is such a supportive community, that beginners really do not have anything to fear. The quarterly recitals have become a powerful motivating tool for me to polish something to performance level every three months. Learning comes from internal motivation (the desire to play well) and external motivation (playing for others). The AFB recitals give many of us that external motivation, that we might not otherwise have. The sooner a beginner embraces that, the better their playing will become. I look at it as a club. There are junior members and senior members. The juniors learn from the seniors. I am an intermediate player. The better players and those that can compose there own music do not intimidate me, they inspire me. I hope that new beginners can see it that way. The first entry into an AFB recital is a right of passage. Sure it is scary, but it is an accomplishment to have done it.
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#2068633 - 04/22/13 12:14 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: FarmGirl]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: FarmGirl
I did not notice this thread until now. I am not a beginner but cannot play with such higher caliver demonstrated in the pianist corner. I also do not know so much music history / theory to participate in the discussions and make meaningful contributions. It does not mean that I would not go out there. I frequently read the posts that I'm interested in. It's just not my place. I still need encouragement. I live with a certain shame that playing and studying piano music. If you are good pianist, its ok, they don't have the same problem. Whenever I was asked, "are you any good?", I had to say "no" all the time. Then comes the next question. "Why do you do it then?", well, I answer, "that's a good question. I just like it and cannot quit". It is only this community to which I felt like I can belong without hiding who I am.

Just want to say this is an interesting post and to thank you for sharing. I don't think anybody ever needs so say they're not 'good', because it's always relative. Getting 'good' is a journey, not a destination, so we never stop working on getting better. That process, and enjoying it, is, I think, what it's all about. Please don't hide or feel shame!

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#2068667 - 04/22/13 01:41 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: SwissMS]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: SwissMS
I have followed this discussion for its four pages, and I finally decided to add my two cents worth. The first recital submission that I did came from an Alfred's method book. It was scary, because I knew I was outclassed. However everyone was so supportive, that I was inspired to continue submitting every quarter. This is such a supportive community, that beginners really do not have anything to fear. The quarterly recitals have become a powerful motivating tool for me to polish something to performance level every three months. Learning comes from internal motivation (the desire to play well) and external motivation (playing for others). The AFB recitals give many of us that external motivation, that we might not otherwise have. The sooner a beginner embraces that, the better their playing will become. I look at it as a club. There are junior members and senior members. The juniors learn from the seniors. I am an intermediate player. The better players and those that can compose there own music do not intimidate me, they inspire me. I hope that new beginners can see it that way. The first entry into an AFB recital is a right of passage. Sure it is scary, but it is an accomplishment to have done it.


+1 thumb
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#2068694 - 04/22/13 02:35 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2083
Loc: Rocky Mountains
I know for a fact. The one person who was kicked out. That Basset Hound who owns Rossy. He is really good. Was kicked out of the pianist corner also. smile


Edited by rnaple (04/22/13 02:36 PM)
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#2068775 - 04/22/13 04:27 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
AimeeO Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 803
Loc: New Orleans
I like the idea of the baby picture thread, too.

I will start the beginners thread tomorrow when I'm off and can properly compose an introduction.

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#2068930 - 04/22/13 09:54 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Lain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 613
+1 for not changing anything
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#2068954 - 04/22/13 10:46 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: FarmGirl]
Whizbang Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 759
Originally Posted By: FarmGirl
Whenever I was asked, "are you any good?", I had to say "no" all the time. Then comes the next question. "Why do you do it then?", well, I answer, "that's a good question. I just like it and cannot quit".


Hi FarmGirl. I've been playing a long time and my answers are still very similar to yours. I won't answer the first question with a flat "no" any more, but more with an "Well, I'm okay". My answer to the second question is "I play the piano because I can't not."

The latter answer bodes well for your continued improvement at the piano, FarmGirl. The piano can be pretty merciless and is more than capable of taking anything anyone, no matter how talented, can dish out. But it's only the folks who persevere who ultimately get it to yield to some degree.
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#2069095 - 04/23/13 03:15 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: SwissMS]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted By: SwissMS
I have followed this discussion for its four pages, and I finally decided to add my two cents worth. The first recital submission that I did came from an Alfred's method book. It was scary, because I knew I was outclassed. However everyone was so supportive, that I was inspired to continue submitting every quarter. This is such a supportive community, that beginners really do not have anything to fear. The quarterly recitals have become a powerful motivating tool for me to polish something to performance level every three months. Learning comes from internal motivation (the desire to play well) and external motivation (playing for others). The AFB recitals give many of us that external motivation, that we might not otherwise have. The sooner a beginner embraces that, the better their playing will become. I look at it as a club. There are junior members and senior members. The juniors learn from the seniors. I am an intermediate player. The better players and those that can compose there own music do not intimidate me, they inspire me. I hope that new beginners can see it that way. The first entry into an AFB recital is a right of passage. Sure it is scary, but it is an accomplishment to have done it.


A very good description, especially the part on fear. The following quote is cliched, certainly, but still highly relevant nonetheless:
Originally Posted By: Franklin D. Roosevelt
There is nothing to fear but fear itself.




p.s. Enjoy your time with Tchaikovsky's sixth season, SwissMS. It was, and still is, a very dear piece to me and I look forward to hearing your interpretation!

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#2069391 - 04/23/13 02:53 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: rnaple]
Rostosky Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Originally Posted By: rnaple
I know for a fact. The one person who was kicked out. That Basset Hound who owns Rossy. He is really good. Was kicked out of the pianist corner also. smile


Whilst this quote may sound similar to the English language, it fails to make any sort of sense.
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#2069554 - 04/23/13 07:59 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Rostosky]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2083
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Originally Posted By: rnaple
I know for a fact. The one person who was kicked out. That Basset Hound who owns Rossy. He is really good. Was kicked out of the pianist corner also. smile


Whilst this quote may sound similar to the English language, it fails to make any sort of sense.


Now now now, Rossy... We all know how jealous you are of that Basset's talent. Wasn't it you who kicked him out?
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#2069718 - 04/24/13 02:23 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
BenPiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: SwissMS
I have followed this discussion for its four pages, and I finally decided to add my two cents worth. The first recital submission that I did came from an Alfred's method book. It was scary, because I knew I was outclassed. However everyone was so supportive, that I was inspired to continue submitting every quarter. This is such a supportive community, that beginners really do not have anything to fear. The quarterly recitals have become a powerful motivating tool for me to polish something to performance level every three months. Learning comes from internal motivation (the desire to play well) and external motivation (playing for others). The AFB recitals give many of us that external motivation, that we might not otherwise have. The sooner a beginner embraces that, the better their playing will become. I look at it as a club. There are junior members and senior members. The juniors learn from the seniors. I am an intermediate player. The better players and those that can compose there own music do not intimidate me, they inspire me. I hope that new beginners can see it that way. The first entry into an AFB recital is a right of passage. Sure it is scary, but it is an accomplishment to have done it.


Gosh, this is such a great testimonial for the spirit of the ABF quarterly recitals.

If there is ever an "about" section for our recitals here, this should be up near the front somewhere smile .
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#2070070 - 04/24/13 04:32 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: BenPiano]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1837
Loc: USA
I have not participated in the recital in some time, but that is due mostly due to my lack of bench time and priorities. I have continued to listen to the recitals and I look forward toward each quarter.

I agree with some others, that an intermediate forum is over due. Perhaps, the "moderation" requirement is preventing that from becoming reality. Regardless, there are people who have been on this forum for a long time. They may have started as beginners, but after a while, there is a need to move on. Some, have moved on to other venues, that is our loss.

That is not to say, the recital needs an over-haul. Having different levels of talent and a variety of music, is the foundation of the longevity, this recital enjoys. (myop)

"I am delighted to introduce our 29th quarterly Adult Beginners' Forum Recital!"

The recital name could use an overhaul, to properly convey the spirit of the recital. It is our loss, when people like Morodiene, Frycek, & gooddog don't participate, out of doubt their abilities will be welcomed. I, would very much be interested in what they would have to contribute. So, please reconsider!

The recital needs to make very clear, it is open to all levels of experience and genre of music, so that everyone feels welcomed to participate. Perhaps, a formal invitation at the beginning of the announcement would help?

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#2070074 - 04/24/13 04:38 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Strings & Wood]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Strings & Wood

The recital needs to make very clear, it is open to all levels of experience and genre of music, so that everyone feels welcomed to participate. Perhaps, a formal invitation at the beginning of the announcement would help?



confused Here's the text of the first three paragraphs of the Call For Submissions. It seems pretty clear to me, but I'm happy to hear any suggestions for changing the wording to make it clearer:

Recital #27 is now open for submissions!

Believe it or not, our 27th quarterly Piano World Adult Beginners Forum recital approaches! smile The recital will be posted some time on the 15th of August, which means that the submissions must be in by 9:00 pm Eastern Daylight Time, August 14. Please note this deadline is very firm; I cannot start working on the recital until it is closed, and once it is closed, no new entries can be added.

While any and all styles of music are welcome, we do ask that it be piano related. Only one recording may be submitted per forum member (although that recording may consist of a medley of two or more very short related pieces).

If you are fairly new to the piano, please do not be intimidated by some of the talent here in the ABF. We all consider ourselves to be beginners even though we may have been playing for some time. And, we LOVE to hear recordings from folks new to the keyboard. So even if you’re on your first Alfred’s method book, we would *really* enjoy hearing from you.
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#2070079 - 04/24/13 04:43 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
earlofmar Offline
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Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1582
Loc: Australia
couldn't be more inviting than that
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#2070081 - 04/24/13 04:48 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Strings & Wood]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1837
Loc: USA
Quote:
Having different levels of talent and a variety of music, is the foundation of the longevity, this recital enjoys. (myop)


Of course, that statement must be corrected- to include the dedication and efforts of the people behind the scenes.
Monica
Sam S.
Mahlzeit
Copper
LaValse
Frank's place
MSH's idea

In this day and time, it really is a remarkable event.
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#2070082 - 04/24/13 04:54 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Monica K.]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1837
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
Originally Posted By: Strings & Wood

The recital needs to make very clear, it is open to all levels of experience and genre of music, so that everyone feels welcomed to participate. Perhaps, a formal invitation at the beginning of the announcement would help?



confused Here's the text of the first three paragraphs of the Call For Submissions. It seems pretty clear to me, but I'm happy to hear any suggestions for changing the wording to make it clearer:

Recital #27 is now open for submissions!

Believe it or not, our 27th quarterly Piano World Adult Beginners Forum recital approaches! smile The recital will be posted some time on the 15th of August, which means that the submissions must be in by 9:00 pm Eastern Daylight Time, August 14. Please note this deadline is very firm; I cannot start working on the recital until it is closed, and once it is closed, no new entries can be added.

While any and all styles of music are welcome, we do ask that it be piano related. Only one recording may be submitted per forum member (although that recording may consist of a medley of two or more very short related pieces).

If you are fairly new to the piano, please do not be intimidated by some of the talent here in the ABF. We all consider ourselves to be beginners even though we may have been playing for some time. And, we LOVE to hear recordings from folks new to the keyboard. So even if you’re on your first Alfred’s method book, we would *really* enjoy hearing from you.




Well, I think we have covered the "beginner" quite well with the title and content, but I am not sure the more experienced player is feeling the warmth.
I suppose I am troubled by the title more than anything else.
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#2070090 - 04/24/13 05:00 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Strings & Wood]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1837
Loc: USA
I suppose if I am going to complain, I should make a suggestion.

"The Piano World Quarterly Recital"

After all, aren't we the only game in town?
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#2070091 - 04/24/13 05:02 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
The title of the recital uses the title of the forum "Adult Beginner's Forum." So I don't see so much of a problem with that. Perhaps add some language about "pianists of all levels are welcome, whether beginner or advanced. If you're reading this, we want you to participate!"
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#2070096 - 04/24/13 05:06 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Strings & Wood]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Strings & Wood
"The Piano World Quarterly Recital"

I think that would make it less inviting to beginners. I like that people who post in the ABF Recital feel some connection to the ABF.
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#2070106 - 04/24/13 05:18 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: PianoStudent88]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1837
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Originally Posted By: Strings & Wood
"The Piano World Quarterly Recital"

I think that would make it less inviting to beginners. I like that people who post in the ABF Recital feel some connection to the ABF.


It already is in the ABF forum. Aren't you just validating the argument that the more experienced players, do not feel welcomed?

Perhaps, it is an impossible task to have a recital, where everyone is comfortable.
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#2070112 - 04/24/13 05:30 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
It's like this. Piano World is like an ice cream shop. An ice cream shop attracts people who like ice cream, and Pianoworld attracts people who like pianos.

The ice cream shop has a sign outside that says 'Delicious homemade chocolate ice cream'. The Pianoworld sign says 'Adult Beginner Forum'.

So far everything sounds fine and makes perfect sense,....until you go inside! Once you go inside the ice cream shop that advertises for 'homemade chocolate ice cream', the clerk says "well, we really don't carry chocolate ice cream. We stock mostly vanilla". And once you go inside the Pianoworld 'beginner' forum, you will notice the same thing...that there is really is no chocolate ice cream as most of it is vanilla.

Technically, and factually, the correct title/heading is clearly not being applied.

Nobody is saying to break the group up. Several people have suggested simply addressing the group for what it actually is. That being a group comprised of beginners and intermediates.

NOTE: If you ARE an actual pro [meaning that you derive your income from playing piano or have professional music degrees] the 'compatible' pool to swim in is NOT the kiddie pool! The Pianist Corner is for those folks.

In addition, the true beginners of today will be the more seasoned members of tomorrow. It would be nice to be part of a group in which you can sprout, grow and mature along with everyone else. A supportive group that follows along with your progress and encourages you along the way. A group in which everyone reciprocates these actions.

My suggestion once again is to fix the semantics of the title...[possibly Beginner and Beyond] to not only correctly reflect what we actually/factually are, but to also put this topic to rest hopefully for good.

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#2070114 - 04/24/13 05:34 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
[ETA: cross-posted with Mr. Super-Hunky. Mulling over what he has said, but said mulling is not reflected in this post.]
Originally Posted By: Strings & Wood
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Originally Posted By: Strings & Wood
"The Piano World Quarterly Recital"

I think that would make it less inviting to beginners. I like that people who post in the ABF Recital feel some connection to the ABF.


It already is in the ABF forum. Aren't you just validating the argument that the more experienced players, do not feel welcomed?

Perhaps, it is an impossible task to have a recital, where everyone is comfortable.

I was thinking that people who know about the recital and might be interested in performing in it, are connected with the ABF in someone way, and have found a way to feel connected, regardless of their level. (I'll leave aside for a moment the unfortunate response gooddog received early on, but note that even there, we are now seeking to repair that and make her feel welcome). So they've already figured out that the ABF as a whole is not solely for beginners. So then we add language to the ABF Recital to make it explicit that all levels are welcome there too.

Is the idea of calling it the Piano World Quarterly Recital, that we would like people from all the forums to participate, regardless of any community connection they might or might not have with the ABF?


Edited by PianoStudent88 (04/24/13 05:36 PM)
Edit Reason: cross-posted
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#2070119 - 04/24/13 05:38 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
It's like this. Piano World is like an ice cream shop. An ice cream shop attracts people who like ice cream, and Pianoworld attracts people who like pianos.



Some times Ice cream shops attract folk who just like the wafer biscuits or the sprinkles or the chocolate sauce that is poured over the icecream like they have in ice cream vans that do Mr.whippy.

Sometimes ice cream shops attract diebetics that cannot actually eat the ice cream ( so dont buy any) but they still like looking at it for old times sake.

sometimes ice cream shops attract loads of kids with no money that also like looking at all the stuff in there.

Sometimes ice cream shops attract flies and wasps.

sometimes,ice cream shops have a nice looking assistant so attract lots of potential suitors.

There are many ways of looking at things.
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#2070120 - 04/24/13 05:40 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Strings & Wood]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5529
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: Strings & Wood
Perhaps, it is an impossible task to have a recital, where everyone is comfortable.


That would be my guess smile

But you know, Liszt85 (I think that was his user name) was posting in these recitals even after he started entering competitions all over the world. So I really do think a lot of it is a personal response.

I'm one of the middle-of-the-road players, and kind of lower middle-of-the-road at that. I don't feel a need for an "intermediate" forum, tho there seem to be people who do.

I'm not sure we're the only game in town any more - there are recitals over in the pianists corner now - and I suspect some of us would feel as intimidated by entering one of those as some newbies feel intimidated by the quarterly ones here laugh Although, it is also true that those are all classical.

The themed recitals, both here and in the Pianists Corner, do seem to draw on a wide range of players, tho - from beginners to teachers or other pros. They are limited, of course, by the theme, which ours aren't.

I'm much more concerned about the recitals becoming so heavily classical that those of us who don't play classical are a tiny minority. I really try to comment on most of the recordings, but I have a hard time with the classical even if it's a piece I like.

I don't have any solutions. It hadn't really occurred to me that the more advanced players might skip the recitals. I *do* prefer that people who post in the recitals be regular contributors to the ABF, even tho some of the long-time posters don't post as much any more. But there isn't a way to regulate any of the submissions, and I'm not sure I want there to be. I think it's these discussions that kind of really set part of the ABF "tone" or culture and encourage or discourage folks.

So that's my ramblings.

Cathy
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#2070139 - 04/24/13 06:12 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
AimeeO Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 803
Loc: New Orleans
If the name of the recital is an issue, maybe the words can be shifted around slightly. Maybe it can be the "PW Quarterly Recital, sponsored by ABF" or "ABF's Piano World Recital."

It's almost kind of silly for everyone here to be beginners, honestly. Who would the beginners ask questions from? And "beginners" can be stretched: You can be just "beginning" early intermediate, or intermediate, or early-advanced. You're still beginning something, and it's still hard, and you still want support. Maybe we should be Adult Learners, because I think all of us can agree that we're still learning and figuring things out. This forum is centered around learning how to play, theory, etc. The other forums have other things that they focus on. Pianists Corner, for example, seems to be more centered about lively discussion about works, composers, and classical music happenings. It's a different animal.



Cathy, I tend to play more classical, but I love hearing the offerings that are not classical! I am seriously going to start looking into Einaudi as a result of the recitals. Maybe if more people are encouraged to participate, there will be more variety.

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#2070151 - 04/24/13 06:28 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 508
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
My suggestion once again is to fix the semantics of the title...[possibly Beginner and Beyond] to not only correctly reflect what we actually/factually are, but to also put this topic to rest hopefully for good.

I like that idea, FWIW. Just insert "and Beyond", add an extra "B" to the initials, and then head out for a celebratory ice cream of the flavor of one's choice. smile

Originally Posted By: jotur
I'm much more concerned about the recitals becoming so heavily classical that those of us who don't play classical are a tiny minority.

Really? Is there a trend you are seeing in this direction? Are you just concerned re: suggestions of trying to turn the ABF recitals to be more PW-centric?

As a Johnny-come-lately to ABF, I think the variety in the ABFQR's is fantastic. It is just about my only exposure to jazz and ragtime (for instance), and I really enjoy it. I appreciate jazz so much more now as a result of listening and reading about it here.
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#2070170 - 04/24/13 06:53 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
I still think we should change it to "All Einaudi, All the Time." smokin

Seriously, though, if we have to err in any direction, I'd want to err in the direction of being overly welcoming to newbies.
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#2070180 - 04/24/13 07:11 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8527
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Monica K
Seriously, though, if we have to err in any direction, I'd want to err in the direction of being overly welcoming to newbies.

You always have been, Monica! smile

In fact, you were the first to welcome me to Piano World back in 2006, when I first joined. For that, you have always been special to me, and I see you haven't changed. smile

Let's see, who's getting kicked off the quartily recitals? Can't be me, cause I've never participated... can't play well enough.

Rick
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#2070213 - 04/24/13 08:34 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Rostosky]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
[quote=Rostosky]

Mr.whippy.

YES, Mr whippy. Why not?

You see, I'm just a tad passionate about the direction of the recitals. I had something to do with its original concept and would like it to remain as successful as it has always been.

In fact, I'd almost go as far as to say that you are just as passionate about your your RST thread and what you have created as well.

I choose not to participate in your thread even though I think it is a great thread that several others participate in. Conversely, you have chosen not to participate in any previous ABF recitals. Live and let live right?

So why come on a thread and start the name calling? Do you think this is what other members want to happen to them? You see, you put people in a position that they don't want to be in and that is having to defend themselves.

If you think I'm cracking the whip to hard just remember that I'm factually supporting what I am saying. I have personal opinions about you too and if I was still 6 years old I probably would not be able to hold them back. But I'm an adult now and even though I may not act like one at times, I know better than to disrespect others just for my own personal enjoyment.

'Rossy', name calling and personal attacks on others doesn't impress me. A beautiful piano performance submitted to our adult piano group would. The thing is, I'm sure you're are even capable of it as I've seen your creativity before.

My goal is not to make you bleed from your eyes. I don't come to these forums for sport-confrontation. If that is your goal, then you win. I just want to share beautiful melodies with everyone else. This is what I try and do with my music. That's all.

Life is way too short man.

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#2070222 - 04/24/13 09:06 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
AimeeO Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 803
Loc: New Orleans
I thought he was talking about ice cream vans that serve Mr. Whippy.
http://www.mrwhippyicecream.co.uk/

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#2070254 - 04/24/13 10:14 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: AimeeO]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2429
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: AimeeO
I thought he was talking about ice cream vans that serve Mr. Whippy.
http://www.mrwhippyicecream.co.uk/


That's what I also thought Rossy was referring to, Aimee.
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#2070279 - 04/24/13 10:45 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: PianoStudent88]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1837
Loc: USA
Quote:
Is the idea of calling it the Piano World Quarterly Recital, that we would like people from all the forums to participate, regardless of any community connection they might or might not have with the ABF?


That would be my preference. I am guilty of wanting to hear all that is available. Over the years there have been wonderful surprises from people who were here only briefly, but certainly left an impression. babama comes to mind, but there have been many.

That said, I can certainly understand the desire to keep it in the ABF house.
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#2070384 - 04/25/13 01:14 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
casinitaly Offline


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5021
Loc: Italy
Mr. Super-Hunky, I don't think Rossy was insulting anyone - even without being familiar with the "Mr.Whippy" brand, I took it as just an ice-cream service. I think if you re-read it you'll see

Originally Posted By: rossy
Some times Ice cream shops attract folk who just like the wafer biscuits or the sprinkles or the chocolate sauce that is poured over the icecream like they have in ice cream vans that do Mr.whippy.

(boldface is mine)

= vans that serve Mr. Whippy


As far as renaming the recital, I think that the Beginner and Beyond is a good name.

I also think you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time (acknowledgements to Mr. Lincoln).

I think the most we should do is modify the name of the forum & recital to include "beyond".
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Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
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#2070406 - 04/25/13 02:53 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
Cas, I never intended to have a hypothetical analogy of an ice cream store (as mentioned and compared with the ABF) somehow turn into a mobile ice cream truck in the UK. How I'm supposed to know that is beyond me but hey, apparently others do. That's amazing.

It is obvious that many of us are passionate about our viewpoints and I think that is a good thing. I just don't think people should be trampled along the way to finding a resolution.

If for some reason I read into this post incorrectly it certainly was not my intent. Good communication requires a good transmission as well as good reception. If the transmission was totally unclear to me then who knows how I'm going to receive it.

What I can say is I never intended to have my analogy analyzed any further than what it was; that being an analogy.

Anyway, if I'm in any way in the wrong here than I apologize. I certainly never intended to have to apologize for having an analogy restructured and converted into something else but we are obviously at that point. I think last time I had to apologize for deep sea diving boots or something. This is getting a bit nutz!

Passions may be running a little high right now as they usually do with this topic. This is why I would like to be part of the solution as opposed to keep discussing it and getting frustrated over it.

I promised myself I wouldn't repeat my stance on this subject more than two times and that was probably four or five times ago.

I will say that Tallguy has brought up a topic in which he wanted to voice his opinions and he did. I also think he has a valid point with beginner intimidation as he's described.

While I think it is clear that everyone wants the group to stay together, it may be possible for the seasoned members to make it even more accommodating for the newer members. I think everyone does a great job encouraging them but maybe we can do even more.

We could possibly wait until all the beginners fill the top spots in the recitals. This not only gives them first up exposure, it may prevent a first time beginner from feeling intimidated due to following an incredible pro-like performance.

It's about all I can think of but it's still something to offer to make the true beginners feel as welcome as possible.


Edited by Mr Super-Hunky (04/25/13 03:02 AM)

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#2070410 - 04/25/13 03:01 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: casinitaly]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2429
Loc: Minneapolis, MN

Originally Posted By: casinitaly


As far as renaming the recital, I think that the Beginner and Beyond is a good name.




thumb I LOVE this idea !!!

This is a short and concise name with a message. It helps us communicate more effectively that our quarterly recitals welcomes the participation of a diverse range of piano enthusiasts.

I hadn't really planned to get into this conversation with all of the things I'm working on right now. However, those are my thoughts.

YIKES!!! I should be in bed! Good night!
_________________________
Carl


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#2070445 - 04/25/13 05:29 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
earlofmar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1582
Loc: Australia
Inspiring to watch all the posts here.

As a beginner, to the piano and to the forum, I cannot contribute much but I am simply amazed at everyone's commitment to providing a friendly environment and space for all to participate. The debate, although heated at times, reveals the caring nature of the group.

If only the world would stop using analogies at every moment of debate I am sure we could get on better.
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#2070447 - 04/25/13 05:46 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: griffin2417]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: griffin2417

Originally Posted By: casinitaly


As far as renaming the recital, I think that the Beginner and Beyond is a good name.




thumb I LOVE this idea !!!

This is a short and concise name with a message. It helps us communicate more effectively that our quarterly recitals welcomes the participation of a diverse range of piano enthusiasts.



thumb1+
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#2070466 - 04/25/13 07:27 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: -Frycek]
Dipsy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 320
Cas, I like B&B too, or maybe 'improvers' , though 'Beginners and Beyond' is more catching.

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#2070467 - 04/25/13 07:27 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Dipsy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/17/12
Posts: 320
meant to say 'catchy' not catching, which makes it sound like an illness!

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#2070476 - 04/25/13 07:55 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: griffin2417]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3574
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: griffin2417

Originally Posted By: casinitaly


As far as renaming the recital, I think that the Beginner and Beyond is a good name.




thumb I LOVE this idea !!!



Me too!

It's a catchy name... widely diverse and all-inclusive sounding... But, what's in a name...?

Widely diverse and all-inclusive is what we have now...

"Beginner and Beyond" - nice, but how far beyond? Unlimited? Certainly...where would one cut it off at the upper end? Exclude anyone participating in a PC Recital? Discrimination! Fodder for another lively thread...

And if we change the name of the recital, then will we change the name of the Forum itself? ...Beginner and Beyond Forum? it's more than obvious that adult beginners are only a part (a minority?) of those participating on a regular basis on the ABF...more fodder...

Also, should we consider an "Intermediate and Beyond" Recital, which would include only seasoned and experienced players of a certain level of expertise, and exclude beginners, who would eventually be voted in based on their increasing progress and skill acquisition as demonstrated by their entries in the Beginner's Recitals over time? (he said, throwing the grenade and running for cover...)

Less than 3 weeks now to the ___ Forum Beginner and Beyond Recital folks...polish up!





Edited by TrapperJohn (04/25/13 08:10 AM)
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#2070489 - 04/25/13 08:22 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
WOW! Mr.superhunky, that was a totally unexpected and uncalled for tirade indeed.
In reality I was expounding on your analogy: Mr. Whippy being one of the Uk's favourite brands. ( Its really smooth and creamy and doesnt have any ice in it that may hurt ones teeth)

Moving on, I accept your apology in the spirit of a simple misunderstanding.

What I was actually trying to convey was that folk come to Pianoworld and the ABF for probably as many reasons as there are people.

Everyone comes here from, and with, their own perspective, how could they do otherwise?

It would be quite arrogant to think that what ever perspective I have and hold: that must be the perspective of others, it may well be in some cases, but I cannot state for certain in any one case that it is, unless I have intimate knowledge of that person:their background, their hopes, goals,fears, loves, desires etc.

I want to address the point of not making a submission to the quarterly recitals.

I did once make a submission to the monthly recitals and realised too late that (due to the sheer number of submissions) I did not have the time at that point in time to listen to everyones piece let alone construct a comment for all the wonderful and well played pieces of music.

I felt very bad about that and thought I would leave it and the quarterly recitals till I had more time.
(Then I got involved in the themed recitals, which the latest one of has taken an extraordinary ammount of time indeed!)

I feel it is extremely, if not of paramount importance that "true" adult beginners ( or beginners of any age) be in the company of more advanced and knowledgable people/players.

Herein lies great opportunity: if anyone wants to learn how to do something ( in this instance play the piano well, but it applies to all skills)
There is no better way than to watch and learn and ask questions off someone who you personally look up to as being someone you "wish you could play as well as"

And that is what is so good about pianoworld, those folks are usually all approachable and willing to help out.

Surely its just a matter of educating the "newbies" to piano that these folk are not intimidating and are willing to share their knowledge to help folk improve?

And to rest assured there will be no "judging" "ridicule" or "negativity" involved in that help?
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#2070541 - 04/25/13 10:13 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
I'm just curious but let's say that the majority of recital participants agree that "Beginners and Beyond" should be the name of the recital... Who makes the final decision and the change to the name? I would vote to change it BTW. I've also always thought that "Adult Beginner's Forum" was too narrow a focus/name but I won't even go there.
_________________________
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#2070555 - 04/25/13 10:40 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Peyton]
Sam S Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1415
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Peyton
I'm just curious but let's say that the majority of recital participants agree that "Beginners and Beyond" should be the name of the recital... Who makes the final decision and the change to the name? I would vote to change it BTW. I've also always thought that "Adult Beginner's Forum" was too narrow a focus/name but I won't even go there.


I am currently the person who has volunteered to keep the software running. Monica is the person who has volunteered to actually run the recitals.

Check recitals.pianoworld.com to see how it looks now.

Suggest a change in the text!

If we can come to some consensus I'll make the change.

If we want the change before the next recital it will need to be decided on before May 1st.

Sam

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#2070612 - 04/25/13 11:59 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Sam S]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Sam S
Originally Posted By: Peyton
I'm just curious but let's say that the majority of recital participants agree that "Beginners and Beyond" should be the name of the recital... Who makes the final decision and the change to the name? I would vote to change it BTW. I've also always thought that "Adult Beginner's Forum" was too narrow a focus/name but I won't even go there.


I am currently the person who has volunteered to keep the software running. Monica is the person who has volunteered to actually run the recitals.

Check recitals.pianoworld.com to see how it looks now.

Suggest a change in the text!

If we can come to some consensus I'll make the change.

If we want the change before the next recital it will need to be decided on before May 1st.

Sam


Well there you have it. I say we vote.

I vote to rename the recital the Beginners and Beyond Recital, that we throw Rickster out, that we call SH "Whippy" and that Monica has to dress up like Linda Hamilton in the Terminator for all of her youtube vids.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#2070617 - 04/25/13 12:10 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Peyton]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Originally Posted By: Peyton


Well there you have it. I say we vote.

I vote to rename the recital the Beginners and Beyond Recital, that we throw Rickster out, that we call SH "Whippy" and that Monica has to dress up like Linda Hamilton in the Terminator for all of her youtube vids.


I vote for not jumping to (any more) conclusions.
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#2070619 - 04/25/13 12:12 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Peyton]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 620
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: Peyton
I vote to rename the recital the Beginners and Beyond Recital


+1!
_________________________
Beginner with some priors since 9/2012

Currently Playable
Bach 846, 926, 930
Beethoven 27/2 mvt. 1
Burgmüller 100/3, 4, 7, 12, 15, 19, 25
Chopin 72/1
Clementi 36/1
Grieg 12/1, 7
Tchaikovsky 39/9

Future
Burgmüller 109
Bartok Sz 56
Mozart K331

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#2070654 - 04/25/13 12:55 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Peyton]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3574
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: Peyton
...I've also always thought that "Adult Beginner's Forum" was too narrow a focus/name...


True, but then "Beginner and Beyond" may be far to broad a focus/name - as I asked before: are there any limits to the "Beyond" part? Are PC regulars welcome? How about conservatory students, or teachers, or professionals, or even concert pianists? If not, then "Beyond" has some limits, and so what are they?

But, if they are welcome (not excluded) then why not just call it The PianoWorld Recital Open (like in golf or tennis) or the PianoWorld Everyone Recital - and in any case why even use the "Beginner" name at all, anywhere - it's redundant - it's clear to even the most casual observer that one would probably not be entering a piece in an online piano recital unless one were at least a beginner...

Beginner and Beyond sounds cute and sophisticated, but when you look at it hard and cold does it really make sense?
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

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#2070664 - 04/25/13 01:04 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Sam S]
Stubbie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 390
Loc: Midwest USA
Originally Posted By: Sam S
Originally Posted By: Peyton
I'm just curious but let's say that the majority of recital participants agree that "Beginners and Beyond" should be the name of the recital... Who makes the final decision and the change to the name? I would vote to change it BTW. I've also always thought that "Adult Beginner's Forum" was too narrow a focus/name but I won't even go there.


I am currently the person who has volunteered to keep the software running. Monica is the person who has volunteered to actually run the recitals.

Check recitals.pianoworld.com to see how it looks now.

Suggest a change in the text!

If we can come to some consensus I'll make the change.

If we want the change before the next recital it will need to be decided on before May 1st.

Sam


Sam, my reading of your post is that you're referring to the recital name, not the forum name. Is that correct?

If so, anyone know who has the where-with-all to change the forum name? Do we need a poll to find out if there is a consensus?

Originally Posted By: WiseBuff
Maybe we could retitle our favorite forum to "Beginner and Beyond"
_________________________
Wherever you go, there you are.


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#2070672 - 04/25/13 01:28 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: TrapperJohn]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 620
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: TrapperJohn

Beginner and Beyond sounds cute and sophisticated, but when you look at it hard and cold does it really make sense?


It does, IMHO.

If participating in the recital floats their boat, then yes, I think professionals, conservatory students, 40-year teaching veterans and their ilk should feel welcome to submit whatever they wish to submit. But generally speaking, I don't think they are the problem. They're going to share their music wherever and whenever they can, whether we encourage them to do so or not.

If we rename the recital to "beginner and beyond", its name will perhaps more accurately reflect the varying levels of the people who actually participate in it. But it will also clearly signal the fact that it is open to participants of *all* levels (and perhaps especially to those who are just starting out), even though the quality of the submissions would sometimes suggest otherwise.

Suppose we had a recital named "the PianoWorld Open Recital", as you suggest. Newcomers would read that, listen to some of the past submissions, and think "well, clearly, this is something people only take part in once they've cleared a certain hurdle. It's not for me (yet)." Over time, as less beginners took part in it, and more people who are towards the 'professional' side of the spectrum submitted something, the average level would keep going up, until only the cream of the crop felt they could 'safely' participate.

On the other hand, if the word beginner is explicitly there in the title, then it's clear to everyone that the recital at least *intends* to be open to everyone. To me, it doesn't matter how people interpret the word "beyond". Yundi Li or Lang Lang could sign up here and submit their practice sessions, for all I care. The important thing is that we don't do anything that might lower the number of participants at the other end of the spectrum. Because obviously, Yundi Li and Lang Lang don't need to come here to find an audience. Neither do most professional musicians, conservatory students and teachers. But for many beginners, the ABF is the best option they have.
_________________________
Beginner with some priors since 9/2012

Currently Playable
Bach 846, 926, 930
Beethoven 27/2 mvt. 1
Burgmüller 100/3, 4, 7, 12, 15, 19, 25
Chopin 72/1
Clementi 36/1
Grieg 12/1, 7
Tchaikovsky 39/9

Future
Burgmüller 109
Bartok Sz 56
Mozart K331

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#2070678 - 04/25/13 01:32 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Stubbie]
Sam S Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1415
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Stubbie

Sam, my reading of your post is that you're referring to the recital name, not the forum name. Is that correct?

If so, anyone know who has the where-with-all to change the forum name? Do we need a poll to find out if there is a consensus?



Yes, I was just referring to the name and/or text associated with the quarterly recital.

Changing the forum name may cause problems with old links - I don't know. That would be a question for Frank Baxter, who owns and runs Piano World.

Sam

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#2070772 - 04/25/13 04:02 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Saranoya]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3574
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: Saranoya

Suppose we had a recital named "the PianoWorld Open Recital", as you suggest. Newcomers would read that, listen to some of the past submissions, and think "well, clearly, this is something people only take part in once they've cleared a certain hurdle. It's not for me (yet)."



But that very thing is happening right now, and has been happening since the first recital here, and with the word "Beginner" clearly in the title - hence the angst-induced periodic threads wanting to know who can/can't submit, and requesting name changes, pushing for alternative recitals, etc., etc. Adding the word "Beyond" won't change anything.

If the real problem here is getting rid of the "fear-factor" of submitting a recital recording for those relatively new to the instrument it's not going to happen with reorganization or new nomenclature - only time and experience and the self confidence that comes with increasing skill can do that.
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.

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#2070787 - 04/25/13 04:28 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
trapper, I agree with you that the underlying problem is in the fear or intimidation of the true beginner. This is just an expressed human behavior because people fear the unknown.

The fact is, once the true beginner DOES participate in the recital, they realize it wasn't that bad and that they actually DID survive it.

It will never change because at some point everyone must take their first step. Once they do, confidence will immediately start to build and off they go.

Kinda reminds me of that first day on the big bike without the training wheels.

Peyton, in the past, once a group consensus was reached concerning a specific topic the new procedure was simply implemented to avoid a 'designed by committee' square wheeled car.

If enough people are okay with the "Beginner and Beyond" title then it will simply be applied and that's it.

I personally like this title because it is descriptively accurate. It doesn't just say 'beginner' in the title like the current inaccurate one does. And it doesn't have the word 'pianist' in the title indicating professional level abilities.

'Beginner and Beyond' may actually be the best and most accurate description that can realistically and accurately be applied to this group.

I like it. I LUV it.

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#2070792 - 04/25/13 04:38 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: TrapperJohn]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 620
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: TrapperJohn
Adding the word "Beyond" won't change anything.


Except that it will do away with the implication that all participants in the ABF Recital are beginners. Clearly, this is untrue, but newcomers don't necessarily know that.

Beginners and Beyond", to me, says two things:

1) Open to all levels, especially beginners
2) Not all participants will be beginners ... some are "beyond" ... whether that means they're early intermediate, or just about to start a solo recital tour.
_________________________
Beginner with some priors since 9/2012

Currently Playable
Bach 846, 926, 930
Beethoven 27/2 mvt. 1
Burgmüller 100/3, 4, 7, 12, 15, 19, 25
Chopin 72/1
Clementi 36/1
Grieg 12/1, 7
Tchaikovsky 39/9

Future
Burgmüller 109
Bartok Sz 56
Mozart K331

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#2070799 - 04/25/13 04:47 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Saranoya]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 508
Originally Posted By: Saranoya
Originally Posted By: TrapperJohn
Adding the word "Beyond" won't change anything.


Except that it will do away with the implication that all participants in the ABF Recital are beginners. Clearly, this is untrue, but newcomers don't necessarily know that.

Beginners and Beyond", to me, says two things:

1) Open to all levels, especially beginners
2) Not all participants will be beginners ... some are "beyond" ... whether that means they're early intermediate, or just about to start a solo recital tour.

I agree... and plan to participate as long as my touring schedule allows me to do so. smile

thumb on the name change.
_________________________
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Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

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#2070808 - 04/25/13 05:01 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky


Peyton, in the past, once a group consensus was reached concerning a specific topic the new procedure was simply implemented to avoid a 'designed by committee' square wheeled car.



Well heck, I wanted to be on a committe. smile
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#2070809 - 04/25/13 05:03 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Peyton]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Peyton


Well heck, I wanted to be on a committe. smile

I had to use the quote function to see if you had ready written "heck". laugh
(Sorry,OT)

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#2070831 - 04/25/13 05:50 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
stumbler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 280
Loc: Toronto
Isn't "heck" short for "heckle"?
(double OT)


Edited by stumbler (04/25/13 05:50 PM)
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#2070931 - 04/25/13 08:23 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2389
Loc: Virginia, USA
So, if the name changes, I do still get kicked off, right?!

(But let me keep my medals.)
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#2070932 - 04/25/13 08:23 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Saranoya]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3574
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: Saranoya
Originally Posted By: TrapperJohn
Adding the word "Beyond" won't change anything.


Except that it will do away with the implication that all participants in the ABF Recital are beginners. Clearly, this is untrue, but newcomers don't necessarily know that.



But they sure find out soon enough...how much sooner do they need (or want) to know?

Changing the name won't solve the problem - beginner's participation fear - nothing solves that except time & experience.

I can just see this Forum about 3 months from now - after the name change - when someone starts a thread complaining about the new name and the increasing level of participation of the "beyond players" who were enticed into the next recital by that name change...
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.

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#2070973 - 04/25/13 09:12 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
AimeeO Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 803
Loc: New Orleans
No, Andy, you're stuck! You have to keep playing for us!

I understand what you mean, Trap. But if this thread has taught me anything, it's that things need to be written out in a crystal clear manner that leave little or no room for interpretation. And if this clarifies things a bit, then by all means do it! smile

I like Adult Learners, but I think that everyone is right in that Beginners and Beyond will attract the notice of beginners, and is more inclusive. So I vote for Beginners and Beyond, also.

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#2070975 - 04/25/13 09:20 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 1837
Loc: USA
Quote:
I personally like this title because it is descriptively accurate. It doesn't just say 'beginner' in the title like the current inaccurate one does. And it doesn't have the word 'pianist' in the title indicating professional level abilities.

'Beginner and Beyond' may actually be the best and most accurate description that can realistically and accurately be applied to this group.


thumb
I am officially on board.
_________________________







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#2070993 - 04/25/13 09:42 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: keystring]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Peyton


Well heck, I wanted to be on a committe. smile

I had to use the quote function to see if you had ready written "heck". laugh
(Sorry,OT)


That's funny, if you say he** it comes out heck... I'l be danged. More of that government tampering.
_________________________
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#2070995 - 04/25/13 09:43 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Andy Platt]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Andy Platt
So, if the name changes, I do still get kicked off, right?!

(But let me keep my medals.)


Yea Andy, you and Rickster are out of here...
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#2071003 - 04/25/13 09:55 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8527
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Peyton
Yea Andy, you and Rickster are out of here...
Peyton, if I could play as well as you, Andy and Sam Smith, I'd protest in order to not get kicked off the quarterly recitals... smile

But if Andy and I have to go, we will go with our heads held high... no shame. grin

Rick
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#2071262 - 04/26/13 06:44 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Rickster]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Originally Posted By: Peyton
Yea Andy, you and Rickster are out of here...
Peyton, if I could play as well as you, Andy and Sam Smith, I'd protest in order to not get kicked off the quarterly recitals... smile

But if Andy and I have to go, we will go with our heads held high... no shame. grin

Rick


Ahhh Rick you are the epitome of modesty. smile
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#2071275 - 04/26/13 07:16 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: AimeeO]
TrapperJohn Offline
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Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3574
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: AimeeO


I understand what you mean, Trap. But if this thread has taught me anything, it's that things need to be written out in a crystal clear manner that leave little or no room for interpretation. And if this clarifies things a bit, then by all means do it! smile

I like Adult Learners, but I think that everyone is right in that Beginners and Beyond will attract the notice of beginners, and is more inclusive. So I vote for Beginners and Beyond, also.


AimeeO - strangely enough I'll probably vote for "Beginners and Beyond" too - and why not?

It's a neat little catchy title and it's a change for the sake of change, and a lot of people were bored with the tired old title anyway, and the new one gives the illusion of a real change of substance, but fortunately for those of us who were happy with the way things actually operated it won't make the least bit of difference, and the Recitals will go on as they always have, and the chronic complaints will continue to periodically mount until we get the next name change which will be something like "Beginning Beginners and Somewhat But Not Too Far Beyond" to help hold down the influx of still more "Advanced Beyonders", which will finally make it crystal clear who is included and what is intended...

I still like my idea of an "Intermediate and Beyond" Recital where new participating members would be voted in based on their past performances in beginner-oriented recitals - this would go a long way toward drawing those pesky beyonders away from other recitals, thus making them much more amenable and comfortable for the non-beyonders...

Trap

Edited to add: Congrats, BTW, on the Ecco Fatto Cafe thread - nice job & well done!


Edited by TrapperJohn (04/26/13 07:25 AM)
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#2071282 - 04/26/13 07:33 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Strings & Wood]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2429
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: Strings & Wood
Quote:
I personally like this title because it is descriptively accurate. It doesn't just say 'beginner' in the title like the current inaccurate one does. And it doesn't have the word 'pianist' in the title indicating professional level abilities.

'Beginner and Beyond' may actually be the best and most accurate description that can realistically and accurately be applied to this group.


thumb
I am officially on board.



thumb
I'm definitely voting in favor of "Beginner and Beyond"
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#2071292 - 04/26/13 08:01 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Rostosky Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
I like Tj's Idea of intermediate and beyond as voted for by (maybe) beginners and beyond.

And one of my own just for the more outlandish amongst us just: "Beyond"

(beyond hope, beyond redemption, beyond forlorn hope)
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#2071326 - 04/26/13 09:09 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Rostosky]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2429
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
I like Tj's Idea of intermediate and beyond as voted for by (maybe) beginners and beyond.

And one of my own just for the more outlandish amongst us just: "Beyond"

(beyond hope, beyond redemption, beyond forlorn hope)


laugh
Oh Rossy, please!! That goes for you too, TJ! Before we know it you'll both have us Beyond Topic!









Edited by griffin2417 (04/26/13 10:17 AM)
_________________________
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#2071489 - 04/26/13 12:23 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
We can name the recital whatever we want. I'm hearing a groundswell of support for "Beginner and Beyond," and unless I start hearing a groundswell in the opposite direction, I'll make the appropriate changes on the call for submission and recital threads. The recital software is another matter; Sam or someone with admin privileges and programming skills would need to take care of that.

The name of the FORUM, however, it completely up to Frank. I personally like "Adult Beginners Forum" just for simplicity, and as I've said before, if it ain't broke, don't fix it--and I don't see much evidence that AB forum is broke. wink (I do wish he would correct that apostrophe error that occurs in some spots where it makes it look like the forum is dedicated to a single individual. whome ) But if enough of you wanted the change and talked Frank into it, it wouldn't bother me.

Last, but not least, I disagree fairly strongly with the idea of voting people off the recital or encouraging them, either subtly or openly, not to participate. That's not what AB forum is about, in my opinion; providing a welcoming and supporting environment for people regardless of their skill level is its primary purpose. Again, I don't see this as a problem; the "real" pianists who are professionals or semi-professionals self-select out of participating, but if one of them wanted to join in, why, I'd feel flattered that he/she felt it was a worthy venue. laugh The risk of hurt feelings raised by the specter of being voted off and/or told that one is not welcome is, in my opinion, a huge mistake and not something I'd want to be part of as one of the administrators of the recitals.
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#2071508 - 04/26/13 12:42 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Monica K.]
aTallGuyNH Offline
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Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 508
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
Last, but not least, I disagree fairly strongly with the idea of voting people off the recital or encouraging them, either subtly or openly, not to participate.

Aside from my tongue-in-cheek subject line, did anyone actually suggest either voting people off or discouraging them from participating? I didn't pick up on it if they did...
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#2071597 - 04/26/13 02:41 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Peyton Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
Last, but not least, I disagree fairly strongly with the idea of voting people off the recital or encouraging them, either subtly or openly, not to participate.

Aside from my tongue-in-cheek subject line, did anyone actually suggest either voting people off or discouraging them from participating? I didn't pick up on it if they did...


I hope no one thought I was serious.... Other than my joke about throwing Rickster and Andy off I didn't think anyone actually suggested throwing people off.
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#2071661 - 04/26/13 03:56 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
Last, but not least, I disagree fairly strongly with the idea of voting people off the recital or encouraging them, either subtly or openly, not to participate.

Aside from my tongue-in-cheek subject line, did anyone actually suggest either voting people off or discouraging them from participating? I didn't pick up on it if they did...


I did. I thought this because you said it, only to follow it with 'I'm only kidding,... sorta.

Since you added (and left) the word "sorta" (that being sort of), then that would also imply that you're "sorta" (sort of) not kidding. am I mistaken about this?

In addition, you should understand that many people on this forum have serious medical conditions and use the power of music as therapy. I am one of them. Going around tossing out terms like "you're OCD" just because you are trying your best to accomplish something is not being helpful, respectful or encouraging.

In addition, you actually at one point accused me of trying to break the group up (the 'ironic' comment) when if you actually did some research you would have found that I have been working on this issue for years. Trying to be part of the solution, not the constant and perpetual reoccurring problem.

I'm not trying to stir up the nest again as it serves no point. I'm simply answering your question that you asked. If you honestly didn't know why some people may have been offended then I hope you will appreciate my honest answer.

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#2071678 - 04/26/13 04:17 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
Monica, If there is no major dissension from the "Beginner and Beyond" theme then I think we should incorporate that term into the quarterly recitals since this issue only seems to come up when applied to our recitals. [Which IS ironic if you think about it since everybody has stated that they don't compete!)

Anyway, the moniker realistically applies mainly to the quarterly recitals.

Keeping the main category "adult beginners" conveys the message that the primary focus of our group is for beginners. Which it is. But like the day you drive your car off the lot, it is no longer a new car. And after a recital or two, or a year or two of playing, you are no longer a beginner.

A good, well thought out plan (and forum) takes this fact into account and provides an outlet to continue your journey as opposed to walking the plank.

I firmly believe in the 'just in time' inventory concept which basically means to act,(buy) only when it is needed. The quarterly recital moniker 'needed' to be updated because the same issue kept coming up.

While changing the forum heading to "Beginner and Beyond" may factually be more accurate, there has never been anyone (that I know of) who had an issue with the forum name. Only the recital name. (Again, ironic because no one is competeing!)

I would be in favor for changing the forum name if others want to, but I really have never seen the 'just in time inventory' need to. Only the quarterly recitals.

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#2071682 - 04/26/13 04:31 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 674
Loc: NH
Ive been on PW only a short time. So, I am fine with whatever is decided for names. Afterall, the names are just "names". The people who participate make the forum or the recital.

I am not a beginner. However, I'm almost embarrassed at how many years I have either taken lessons or worked on my own given my present level. I don't care how many years I have been at this, I'm still not ready for the "Pianist forum". So the Adult Beginner forum is where I will participate the most. Personally, I will only ever be encouraging to people here. I was compared to my older sister when we were kids much to my detriment. I never "measured up". So, I would never discourage anyone. Playing the piano in private is one thing. But to come here on a public forum and discuss ones ability openly and submit recordings takes real courage. Participation should always be supported and reinforced with positive comments. Our teachers and our own selves are more criticism than we will ever need!
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#2071689 - 04/26/13 04:49 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
It's been pointed out to some of us that it's not necessarily courageous to submit something, sometimes it's presumptious. Apparently it's only considered courageous when a certain standard is met. Which I why I've decided not to impose on the good nature of the audience.
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#2071694 - 04/26/13 04:58 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Peyton]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky

Originally Posted By: Peyton
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
Last, but not least, I disagree fairly strongly with the idea of voting people off the recital or encouraging them, either subtly or openly, not to participate.

Aside from my tongue-in-cheek subject line, did anyone actually suggest either voting people off or discouraging them from participating? I didn't pick up on it if they did...


I hope no one thought I was serious.... Other than my joke about throwing Rickster and Andy off I didn't think anyone actually suggested throwing people off.


Oops. I could've sworn I read something somewhere a serious suggestion about starting an intermediate recital and nominating/voting for people to move to it... but I don't have the time or inclination to re-read this monstrous thread to find that post and/or discover that I was hallucinating it. blush

So, to echo the words of the immortal Emily Litella, "never mind!" whome

What I hope most devoutly is that *nobody* takes this thread or the lengthy and sometimes contentious discussion on this thread as a message that they should not participate, whether you be a brand new beginner or advanced pianist. I believe a consensus has been reached and expressed that ALL are welcome. smile
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#2071697 - 04/26/13 05:00 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: -Frycek]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 674
Loc: NH
Well, being new, I've not seen this. I have an opionion about that, which can be guessed at by my above comment. Looking at your signature, anyone who has worked as hard as you have(MOYD since 2007) deserves encouragemet not comments that you are imposing on the audience. We each progress at different rates. Music does not come easily to many. Some are talented. Some simply have to work their butts off! I would hope the new title of "Beginner and Beyond" would include and encourage not the opposite.
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#2071698 - 04/26/13 05:00 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
It's been pointed out to some of us that it's not necessarily courageous to submit something, sometimes it's presumptious. Apparently it's only considered courageous when a certain standard is met. Which I why I've decided not to impose on the good nature of the audience.

I don't understand that -Frycek. I don't think it reflects the feelings of the great majority of people posting here. I would encourage you to rethink your position. Or out the person who told you that, and we'll explain to him/her (gently or not, as the case warrants) that the ABF, and the ABaB Recital, is meant to be a welcoming environment for all, and especially for people who might have doubts about their abilities or achievements.
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#2071705 - 04/26/13 05:15 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
In regards to the ABF in general, my impression has been that there is a bunch of people who find themselves being students of piano playing when they are no longer children, and that once upon a time the feeling was that piano student and child were synonyms. And then there are people who have had solid training, probably in childhood, and don't really consider themselves as learners that much, so they're looking mostly on how they are interpreting music, refining their playing and so on. The ABF is "the-group-that-isn't-this-second-group-because-we-are-still-learning" group. "Beginners" never really fit. TGTITSGBWASL is probably a tad long. laugh "Beginners and Beyond" sounds good to me. It also helps with the awkward situation of the odd 15 year old who doesn't fit in any age-related group.

Frycek - there will always be the ignorant person here and there who says an ignorant thing, but they don't represent anyone. It's also possible for people to put their feet in their mouth and come across differently than intended. The Internet is great (not!) for that.

Originally Posted By: Monica K.
I believe a consensus has been reached and expressed that ALL are welcome. smile

(Worth quoting, with thanks on behalf of all the timid people out there, for whatever reason.)

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#2071739 - 04/26/13 06:06 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Sorry guys, I've been having a super bad day (work, new computer system,etc) and was feeling a little bitter.
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#2071748 - 04/26/13 06:28 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Monica K.]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Monica K.

Oops. I could've sworn I read something somewhere a serious suggestion about starting an intermediate recital and nominating/voting for people to move to it... but I don't have the time or inclination to re-read this monstrous thread to find that post and/or discover that I was hallucinating it. blush


That may have been TrapperJohn. I think we should throw him out!!! smile

Come on SH, let's have a committee. This is fun.
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#2071761 - 04/26/13 07:09 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2368
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
It's been pointed out to some of us that it's not necessarily courageous to submit something, sometimes it's presumptious.
Submitting our work is an opportunity, a unique and very valuable one, to prepare a piece with more focus than we might usually apply and reap the benefits that level of focus brings to our practise and our technique. For some of us it may be our only opportunity to have an audience after countless hours of practise in solitude.

That others are afforded the joys of hearing their peers and their forum friends at the same time is a bonus.

If you've been the recipient of a negative reaction in the past it may take some courage to submit again but you owe it to yourself to make a submission if you can and we really want to hear our peers and our forum friends. We can't always put a face to the name but it helps to listen to them play.

Negativity is uncharacteristic of this group and any public repeat would be met with widespread condemnation because it detracts from the recital, the forum, the participants and Piano World as a whole.

Everyone is invited to participate. No-one is forced to listen to any of the pieces.

Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Which I why I've decided not to impose on the good nature of the audience.
It is not am imposition but an offering. We WANT to hear others, not to judge them but to judge ourselves, to see what's possible. It allows us to listen to a wider range of music, it thrills us to hear the diversity of music and the diversity of the performers, encourages us to see how far we've come or where we've come from and it inspires us to go on, to investigate other composers, other genres, other pieces.

It is our nature to be curious. We want to know what music other people choose and hear new interpretations of familiar pieces. Perhaps we might hear something we can add to our own music.

I've read many of your posts on the forum and would be very curious to hear what sounds you bring to the world. It saddening that your silence is thrust upon all of us because of one ungrateful wretch.
_________________________
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#2071774 - 04/26/13 07:29 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
Peyton, what I'd really like to do is get together with you, my friend Rossy, my friend Tallguy, my friend Trapper and anyone else who wants to just hang out.

You see, we all have a LOT in common and as a result can easily become good friends. even on the internet.

It's possible that not all of our magnetic headings are in alignment with each other at all times but that is no big deal.

It is no big deal because this is where the word 'intent' comes in.

I honestly believe that all of us have the same 'intent', that being to love, share and appreciate our music with others.

I've seen incredible amounts of passion with Rossy and his RST thread. He is very proud of what he created and rightfully so. There may be occasional conflicts (as there is everywhere), but the passion is obviously there.

Tallguy and myself have a lot in common. We even chose the EXACT same recital piece as out first recital submission.

Trapper has an incredible amount of musical passion. (Tell him Karen Carpenter is no good and see what happens!). Just look at the incredibly detailed descriptions he always provides along with his performance of the tune. He is deeply passionate about it and it shows.

And Peyton, you too are an incredible inspiration to all of us. I can honestly say that your Yan Tiersen 'Compte' video was the most professionally presented (to mean more than just the playing, but EVERYTHING} video I have ever seen on this site and probalby any site.

I know for a fact that we will all get along just fine in the future because we all have the same common goal.

Sure, we'll have to fine tune it along the way (like what we're doing right now) but that is to be expected.

I NEED (more than just want) my sleep at night and don't want to be up worrying what 'so and so' has said or done. If that actually is the case, then something is very wrong and needs to be worked out.

The Camaraderie of this forum has always been so strong that an occasional hiccup along the way is not too unsettling.

Everything will ultimately work out fine because this group simply has too much substance for it not to.





Frycek, It would be an honor to have you participate in our recitals once again. I for one am specifically requesting that you participate in our future recitals. The nonsense in the past is over.

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#2071790 - 04/26/13 08:13 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
rocky Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1456
Loc: Louisville, KY
OK, I haven't been around in a long time. I think I participated in the first 11 recitals, but this same discussion was going on years ago! I never felt like my playing lived up to some of the others, but I enjoyed joining in. Personally, I really loved the mix and the beginners mixed in with those with...shall we say...much more experience. These recitals have been going on for so long now, why change anything? smile
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#2071795 - 04/26/13 08:35 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2555
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky


I NEED (more than just want) my sleep at night and don't want to be up worrying what 'so and so' has said or done. If that actually is the case, then something is very wrong and needs to be worked out.




Sleep my friend, sleep. We only talk about you when you are not around and make sure everything is deleted by the time you wake up... smile

Seriously, this is the best all around forum I've ever been on. The lack of animosity, contention and sniping that is so rampant on the internet is almost amazing. And since we are all throwing kudos around...You are one of the best things going with this forum Mr SH. Your excellent piano playing, imagination and all around good sense of humor never fail to brighten my day.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
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#2071813 - 04/26/13 09:42 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Monica K.]
TrapperJohn Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 3574
Loc: Chocolatetown, USA
Originally Posted By: Monica K.


Oops. I could've sworn I read something somewhere a serious suggestion about starting an intermediate recital and nominating/voting for people to move to it...




Ah, so that's how misinformation gets traction!

That was me - an "Intermediate and Beyond" Recital - but the voting wasn't to force people to move to it involuntarily, whether they wanted to or not - the voting was to permit or allow people to be admitted once it was agreed that they had reached that level, but only if they wanted or desired to do so voluntarily ... current members would vote secretly on prospective willing applicants...the key words here are: no force - all voluntary!

I'd join it, if voted in - but there are big questions about who's doing the initial voting to get it set up & running and who's organizing things - certainly not me - I'm not that serious about it - I like the present ABF Recitals just fine.

I would say, however, that if it makes sense to change the name of the Recital to "Beginner and Beyond" (although I'm not admitting that it does) then it doesn't make sense not to change the forum name to that also...

And watch what any of you say about Karen mad
_________________________
Every difficulty slurred over will be a ghost to disturb your repose later on. Frederic Chopin

Current favorite bumper sticker: Wag more, bark less.

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#2071824 - 04/26/13 10:10 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2083
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Just wanted to seriously let you people know. I don't have much inclination to post something I did. I hope people don't take it as rude. Or conceited or anything like that. I just personally can't see myself posting anything unless it is an experience I enjoyed and want to share with you all.

As far as all the talk of naming this or that. I didn't really follow it. Just to mention...I rather like the name: Armed with Keys.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2071837 - 04/26/13 10:33 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: rocky]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: rocky
OK, I haven't been around in a long time. I think I participated in the first 11 recitals, but this same discussion was going on years ago! I never felt like my playing lived up to some of the others, but I enjoyed joining in. Personally, I really loved the mix and the beginners mixed in with those with...shall we say...much more experience. These recitals have been going on for so long now, why change anything? smile


+1

This is why I miss you, Rocky; you're a wise person indeed.
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Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#2071850 - 04/26/13 11:19 PM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
earlofmar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1582
Loc: Australia
I love the to and fro of this thread - will it go on forever......I sorta hope so
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXV-6-XXX

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#2071900 - 04/27/13 01:14 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: TrapperJohn]
Mr Super-Hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 4236
Loc: Arizona.
Originally Posted By: TrapperJohn

I would say, however, that if it makes sense to change the name of the Recital to "Beginner and Beyond" (although I'm not admitting that it does) then it doesn't make sense not to change the forum name to that also...




Trap I follow your logic. The only reason I'm not pushing for the forum name change, just the recital, is because the forum is not 'ours'. It is Franks.

The quarterly recitals is something within the forum itself that all of us created. But it is not the actual forum.

Frank may have a marketing reason why he chooses the forum names that he does. Key word searches, hash tags etc. I have no idea.

Since the actual forum name itself has never caused any problems then it has never caused any problems. The recital name however has caused lots-O-past discussions.

If Frank wants to rename the ABF to the AB&B forum then I would support that 100%. But if he has business reasons not too I would also completely understand and support that decision as well.

It's all good.

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#2071916 - 04/27/13 01:59 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
Originally Posted By: TrapperJohn

I would say, however, that if it makes sense to change the name of the Recital to "Beginner and Beyond" (although I'm not admitting that it does) then it doesn't make sense not to change the forum name to that also...




Trap I follow your logic. The only reason I'm not pushing for the forum name change, just the recital, is because the forum is not 'ours'. It is Franks.

The quarterly recitals is something within the forum itself that all of us created. But it is not the actual forum.

Frank may have a marketing reason why he chooses the forum names that he does. Key word searches, hash tags etc. I have no idea.

Since the actual forum name itself has never caused any problems then it has never caused any problems. The recital name however has caused lots-O-past discussions.

If Frank wants to rename the ABF to the AB&B forum then I would support that 100%. But if he has business reasons not too I would also completely understand and support that decision as well.

It's all good.




+1
_________________________
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#2071946 - 04/27/13 04:55 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: Mr Super-Hunky]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: Mr Super-Hunky
Frycek, It would be an honor to have you participate in our recitals once again. I for one am specifically requesting that you participate in our future recitals. The nonsense in the past is over.



Thanks, I'll take it under advisement.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#2071955 - 04/27/13 05:42 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: -Frycek]
earlofmar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1582
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
[quote=Mr Super-Hunky]Frycek, It would be an honor to have you participate in our recitals once again. I for one am specifically requesting that you participate in our future recitals. The nonsense in the past is over.



Will there not be any nonsense in the future?
How dissapointing
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXV-6-XXX

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#2071962 - 04/27/13 06:51 AM Re: Can we kick some people off the Quarterly Recitals already?? [Re: earlofmar]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: earlofmar
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
[quote=Mr Super-Hunky]Frycek, It would be an honor to have you participate in our recitals once again. I for one am specifically requesting that you participate in our future recitals. The nonsense in the past is over.



Will there not be any nonsense in the future?
How dissapointing


I'm sure with a drama queen like me around some nonsense can be arranged.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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