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#2067105 - 04/19/13 12:28 PM getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy)
Carion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/12
Posts: 24
I'm trying to find out which mics and videocamera should i buy to record my piano playing at home. Apparently i need 2 microphones, is that correct? And some sort of camera. I just have no idea that what kind of set up should i buy. Should i spend 200 euros, or 600? 1000? Does the quality get a lot better at home recording when going up in price.

Right now I have Zoom Q3 and im not satisfied with the quality i can get out of it. So, im looking for something that is a markable upgrade to that.

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#2067107 - 04/19/13 12:37 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 674
Loc: NH
Not to horn in on this question. But, obviously, that's what I'm doing. I see that the Quarterly Recitals require an mp3 format. What is the minimal equipment necessary for audio only recording in this format? For background, I have ZERO recording knowledge and don't even download mp3 recordings to an iPod or other listening device. I am really a techno idiot!!!
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#2067125 - 04/19/13 01:16 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18015
Loc: Victoria, BC
Check out the Zoom recorders - H4, H2, Q2HD. They are simple-to-operate hand held devices (can be mounted on a tripod) with built-in condenser mics. Zoom produces both audio only and HD audio/video recorders. Some can be purchased for around $200.00.

With everything built in to the Zoom recorders, there is no need to acquire various components which, then, need to be interconnected and placed and balanced, etc.

For playback, you'll need a headset, or you will need to download the files to a computer and listen to them from there. Once you've transferred the files to a computer, you can transfer them to a CD or download them to various public internet sites for sharing.

Many have observed, by the way, that placement is everything with these recorders when recording piano music. Before dismissing a model as not capable of giving the results hoped for, one should try various locations while recording.

Regards,
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#2067148 - 04/19/13 01:57 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2558
Originally Posted By: Carion
I'm trying to find out which mics and videocamera should i buy to record my piano playing at home.



Yes, at least two mics.(I don't recommend a single stereo mic)

For the mics, I use a pair of omni Rode NT-5 and I am happy with the results. You can check my YouTube page for the actual recorded sound examples.(not the ones from the competition, they are recorded with onboard mics of the Zoom Q3HD)

You will need a video camera that has at least a line level input. The Zoom Q3HD has line input and that is why I use it for video recording.
You will also need a mixer or a preamp with phantom power to connect the mics. The output from mixer/preamp goes to the line input of the video recorder.
This way, you can record audio and video in sync without any further editing, which would be required if you had recorded them separately. And believe me it is a pain to sync the audio and video.

Originally Posted By: Carion

Right now I have Zoom Q3 and im not satisfied with the quality i can get out of it.


I am assuming you are talking about the sound quality.
To my knowledge Q3 does not have a line in port. Also mic gain cannot be adjusted, only certain presets are available (similar with Q3HD). These kind of auto gain or low cut etc. filters which change the volume/frequency are not good for recording the piano. Because you won't record the natural sound of the piano.

If you want to deal with syncing issues, you can go with the H4N which has 2 XLR mic inputs and phantom power. That will save you from a preamp/mixer.

Originally Posted By: Carion
Should i spend 200 euros, or 600? 1000? Does the quality get a lot better at home recording when going up in price.


My setup (Rode mics + Soundcraft mixer + Zoom Q3HD) is around $1000 (770 euro). IMO, for home recording purposes a similar budget or even less is adequate.
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#2067150 - 04/19/13 02:00 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 557
I like the Zoom H4 a lot. It's very easy to use, and sounds good for the money.

Originally Posted By: Carion
Apparently i need 2 microphones, is that correct
If you want stereo sound then yes. If you're a noob, then you might be better off getting something with built-in mics (or a stereo mic) then getting two separate mics. Stereo micing can be a tricky thing.


You should be able to get a decent sound out of the Q3. FWIW, there are many things that can negatively effect a recording, such as mic placement, the room/reflective surfaces, poor signal processing. I would try to get the best sound out of your current recorder before replacing it.




Originally Posted By: Hakki

For the mics, I use a pair of omni Rode NT-5 and I am happy with the results.


Those are great mics!
HTH


Edited by DanS (04/19/13 02:05 PM)
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#2067161 - 04/19/13 02:41 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: DanS]
Carion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/12
Posts: 24
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Check out the Zoom recorders - H4, H2, Q2HD. They are simple-to-operate hand held devices (can be mounted on a tripod) with built-in condenser mics. Zoom produces both audio only and HD audio/video recorders. Some can be purchased for around $200.00.

With everything built in to the Zoom recorders, there is no need to acquire various components which, then, need to be interconnected and placed and balanced, etc.


I have a Zoom Q3 and it's not producing the quality wanted.




Originally Posted By: DanS

You should be able to get a decent sound out of the Q3. FWIW, there are many things that can negatively effect a recording, such as mic placement, the room/reflective surfaces, poor signal processing. I would try to get the best sound out of your current recorder before replacing it.


The problem is that both of the microphones and camera are all sticked together. I can't place them in different locations. I have a determined place for camera and thats where both of the mics have to be when using Q3.

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#2067165 - 04/19/13 02:45 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 557
Oh, right. I should have realized that...sorry.
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"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2067302 - 04/19/13 06:57 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 1507
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Like BruceD, I have found the Zoom, in my case an H2, ideal in every way. There are several parameters which require optimising to suit you own situation. It took me about a day to find the best position and configuration, and surprisingly it wasn't an obvious one. This exercise needs to be done only once and thoroughly.

It is possible to play directly from the device to a hi-fi using the lead out, but the sound isn't the best (don't know why, it's fine with headphones) and so I usually just copy the file onto a memory stick and play that in the hi-fi. In fact, USB sticks are mostly what I use lately, just writing CDs if people want them.

Any editing, normally very minimal and confined to lopping off beginnings and endings and a little balancing of channels, is five minutes work in Audacity.

There is the question of which recording mode to use. I used to record in wav but then I found that mp3 256kbps sounded just as good; I cannot tell the difference.

I secure the Zoom to a tripod for stability during recording.

I have no interest in video as I have no desire to view my ursine groping at the instrument, which spectacle would just be a distraction.
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#2067588 - 04/20/13 12:01 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2558
This thread can help too.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/187579/all/best%20piano%20microphone.html

First of all the mics should be of the condenser type. Dynamic mics are not for recording piano.

Some of the things you should consider when selecting the condenser type mics are the pattern, frequency response, spl, diaphragm size.

The pattern of the mic determine how it is picking up and rejecting the sound. There are Omni, cardioid, figure 8 etc. patterns. Personally I prefer two omni mics. Cardioids could be good for close miking. For figure8, there is a recent thread on the Piano Forum, where two figure 8 mics have been used in a Blumlein setup.

Piano sound ranges from 27.5 Hz in the bass to 4186 at the treble. But considering the overtones your mic should have a frequency response of 20 Hz- 20000 Hz. Also the frequency curve should be flat. So that the volume of the sound recorded must be about the same through the frequency range.

Since piano is a loud instrument, spl of the mic should be able to stand the loudest chords you would play.

Small diaphragm mics produce a more crisp, detailed sound, whereas large diaphragm mics have a more round and full sound.
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#2067653 - 04/20/13 03:05 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 674
Loc: NH
Whoa!!!! I looked at the thread referred to in the previous post. THAT was way over my head!!!! I can see that some of you are really trying to capture professional quality recordings. Multiple mics and separate recording devices not only run some serious money, but take some serious technical skill to operate. That is not a description of me!!!

I've looked at the Zoom recorders. The H2 gets good reviews though is regarded as rather flimsy in construction quality. The H4n gets very high marks for a portable digital recording device. I'm not sure yet what all comes in the basic package. If a tripod is not included, I would think that's a necessity along with possilby a remote control unit to minimize handling of the actual recorder when recording. I like that the H4n can be listened to without headphones.

Please, anyone with an H4n please chime in with how you like it and any difficulties or drawbacks you have with the unit. I don't want something so complicated I will have trouble figuring out how to use it. I really want something only to be able to post recordings of myself here on PW and maybe use in my lessons in some way. Whatever I get has to be used and functional to be worth the money spent. Input from current Zoom uses would be appreciated. Thanks!!!
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#2067667 - 04/20/13 03:39 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: dynamobt]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2558
dynamobt, if you want a simple recorder you can go either with the Zoom H1 or H2n. H4n has some additional features (like connecting extra XLR mics, 4 track recording etc.) that you might not be interested, which also makes the device more complex.

The good thing is, H1 and H2n both have adjustable mic gains, and H2n even has an analog mic gain.

Here is one sample from youtube.

http://youtu.be/WcXCLqBzTYI


Edited by Hakki (04/20/13 03:48 PM)
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#2067947 - 04/21/13 10:25 AM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11900
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I own an H4n and I have been testing out different setups using the onboard mics. I will be posting samples soon and perhaps you can judge from these if it's something you'd like to invest in.
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#2067956 - 04/21/13 10:52 AM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
I use an H2N for home recording of my BB. It works very well, and, when recorded in XY+MS, you can import files into Audacity and adjust the mixing of the four channels. The low freq. end is OK for home recording, and you can EQ it up in Audacity as well. Get Avenson mics if you want great sound at a cheap price.

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#2068013 - 04/21/13 12:42 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Mark... Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 4378
Loc: Jersey Shore
Here is where I place my H2 for most recordings. Its also gives easy access. Here it is with lid down. I'm currently in the process of upgrading to a multi mike setup with booms etc. Dont mind my hack playing...


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#2068058 - 04/21/13 02:11 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Mark...]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 674
Loc: NH
I'm just about at the point of deciding on the H2n. It's an upgrade from the H2 which has been discontinued, though still availabe for purchase from various vendors. The H4n looks a bit more complicated than I'm ready for. I found a nice package of the recorder and accessories on Amazon for $220. Seems like it includes everything I might need except for a mic boom if I get particular about the mic placement. I am hoping I can come here with questions about operation of the product as I am sure to have questions. I am so hoping that this is the recorder for dummies. Because I am not intuitve about electronic things.


Edited by dynamobt (04/21/13 02:11 PM)
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#2068116 - 04/21/13 04:13 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
This was recorded on an H2 (video wasn't obviously).




This, both video and audio, was a Zoom Q3HD


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#2068136 - 04/21/13 04:45 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 674
Loc: NH
Good enough for me. So, I ordered it from Sweetwater. They were recommended over Amazon for their tech support. Tech support is good! I may need it!!!
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#2068169 - 04/21/13 05:46 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11900
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Don't be afraid to experiment, but save, save save! Oh, and be sure you have a couple of memory cards too, nothing is worse than making the best recording of your life and finding out afterwards that it ran out of memory. mad
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#2068194 - 04/21/13 06:57 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 674
Loc: NH
I was thinking about this and got a 16gb card in addition to the 2gb card that comes with the recorder. Also, I will be uploading to my computer frequently. It will take me a while to learn the capacity of the cards in relation to number and length of pieces recorded. I will be overwhelmed at first,I'm sure. But, what the heck! I'll experiment and eventually figure it out. The whole point is to have some fun with this. I intentionally went with Sweetwater.com for their tech support as well. I'm likely to need it!


Edited by dynamobt (04/21/13 06:58 PM)
Edit Reason: I can't spell
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#2068253 - 04/21/13 09:18 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11900
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Here is where I have links to the files I did. Mainly it's the same musical passage with different locations for the H4N, but perhaps will be useful for you:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2066244/5.html
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2068256 - 04/21/13 09:33 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Morodiene]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 674
Loc: NH
Very helpful!!! I'm sure I will be doing something similar once I have the H2n. Never would have tried under the piano! But you know, it works!! A little muffled compared to the others. But, quite respectable!! Thank you for doing this.
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#2068508 - 04/22/13 08:15 AM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11900
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I'm still learning as I go, and there are so many different combinations that I haven't even scratched the surface. They key things I've learned are:

-take good notes or even pictures of your setup
-label your recordings well
-don't be afraid to experiment
-the manual is your friend
-listen to your results, then wait a day or so and come back to them - after a while they all sort of blend together

I have officially taken over the living room with equipment so I'm free to experiment at will, but luckily nothing is in the path where it could be tripped over or damaged. Can't wait to hear what you do with your setup!
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2069333 - 04/23/13 12:48 PM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1302
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
I've been using a Zoom H4 for several years, mostly for vocal recording. Some notes:

1. I prefer outboard microphones. I got a pair of Behringer C-2 cardioid condenser mics for $60. The H4 has "phantom power", which those mics need. IMHO, they sound better than the H4's own microphones, and I can put them where I want them. Boom stands are cheap.

2. The electronics of the H4 are, essentially, perfect. If you record at high sample rates, using 24-bit resolution, you'll get a perfectly accurate recording of the sound at the mics. If you cheat -- especially, if you record using MP3 -- the results will be mediocre.

3. Get a copy of "Audacity" (freeware recording package), and learn to use it.

4. The H4n has a better "user interface" than the H4. The H4 is a pain to navigate. The H4N has better menus, and a larger screen. And it has a clock and date, very useful!

. Charles

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#2069682 - 04/24/13 12:03 AM Re: getting recording devices (dont know which ones to buy) [Re: Carion]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13789
Loc: Iowa City, IA
A couple of quick notes:

Don't record in mp3 format, use an uncompressed format like wav

Set the sample rate to 48k and the bit depth to 24. This is the standard for video and works just fine for other applications as well. Lower bit depths can result in a loss of quality.

When you buy an audio recorder like the Zoom, invest in a larger SD card. Also, get in the habit of transferring files over to a computer to keep it empty. You can plug an SD card into most Macs and a lot of windows PCs - it's faster than using a USB cable.

Conventional wisdom says that the best piano recordings are made 6-8 feet away from the instrument with two condenser mics in an XY formation with an omni pattern, but different rooms have very different acoustics, so a lot of experimentation with placement helps.

Be sure to set recording levels to avoid clipping. Slightly low is better than too high. Again, experimentation is good. On Zoom recorders, do not set the level to Auto. Piano recordings have too wide a dynamic range to be accurately detected by the auto setting.

It's relatively easy to sync audio and video in software like iMovie. I like to record video and audio separately and combine them on the computer. I've found the Audio In jack on video recorders to be somewhat lacking and introduce noise (because the connection is analog, not digital.)

If you post a video on YouTube, somebody WILL complain about the camera angle, recording quality, or some other bit of trivial nonsense. Make what you like and find helpful.

In recording quality, priorities matter. They should be:

1) The Pianist
2) The Piano
3) The Room
4) The Microphones
5) Everything else

IMHO, a lot of people spend too much time and money on #5 and not enough on #1-4. Practice, tune the instrument, get some acoustic treatment for the room, place your mics thoughtfully, and use good microphones - unfortunately, this is a case where better almost always means more $$$. For most amateur recordings, you can do just fine for under $500. For professional recordings, $7000+ worth of microphones is very common. Also, with the possible exception of adding a little reverb and splicing takes, there's nothing you can do to fix problems with #1-4. The fanciest software in the world will not make a Rode NT1 sound like a Neumann U87. You can tweak settings in Audacity/ProTools/Logic all day long. It's not gonna happen. smile
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