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#2067217 - 04/19/13 04:30 PM drop/check relationship
musicbased Online   happy
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 99
Loc: UK
I've noticed that if you set the drop very close to let off, then the checking is not quite so good under quiet playing and backing off the drop improves checking again.
What is the relationship between these two adjustments?-Is there a trade off?
Or is something else happening to improve checking by altering the drop?
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#2067236 - 04/19/13 04:59 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1309
Loc: Michigan
Other relevant factors could include . . .

Good friction control (centerpin friction levels, lube the knuckle, etc.)
Make sure the hammer tail is appropriately (but not radically) rough
Appropriate finesse of repetition lever spring tension.
Condition of backcheck leather.
Angle of backcheck head on wire
Checking height
Amount of aftertouch
Density/compliance of front rail punchings

You need to be clear about what your objectives are and what potential performance trade-offs you are willing to accept. A recent thread about Glen Gould's eccentricities serves to illustrate . . .
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Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2067261 - 04/19/13 05:37 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]
musicbased Online   happy
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 99
Loc: UK
Ok thanks Keith.

So i'm mainly working on brand new renner actions fully friction controlled.
Renner hammers, tails rough enough.Springs regulated with smooth steady rise, brand new checks, angle matched to hammers.
Checking height 13mm, aftertouch .5mm with crescendo front rail washers.


Checking is fine,It's just an observation really.
I've noticed that in general,on older actions too, if the drop is set very slightly lower, checking is better at ppp.Wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on why this might be?

I haven't seen that other thread so i don't know what you mean.
I suppose the trade off i would be willing to accept would be slightly lower drop for better checking at ppp.?
What do you think?
I was more trying to explore the reasons behind it. Perhaps then i might be in a better position to decide which is the most sensible trade off.
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#2067312 - 04/19/13 08:11 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1165
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
The farther down the drop is set, the farther the hammer falls after escapement without hitting spring resistance. This is aiding in checking by allowing the hammer "drop velocity" to be higher, ( it has more of a "running start" before having to overcome the spring. As you said, this is only a factor on very soft play.
Regards,

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#2067339 - 04/19/13 09:30 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
0.5 mm aftertouch is very much on the slim side and may not be enough to enable positive checking on a pp blow.
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#2067343 - 04/19/13 09:36 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: Ed Foote]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 485
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Greetings,
The farther down the drop is set, the farther the hammer falls after escapement without hitting spring resistance. This is aiding in checking by allowing the hammer "drop velocity" to be higher, ( it has more of a "running start" before having to overcome the spring. As you said, this is only a factor on very soft play.
Regards,


Finally, a definition of drop that works for me!!!

So, if I may, is the main purpose of drop to provide "drop velocity", as it were, which I guess would have a substantive effect on post-escapement feel? Why, I wonder, would Reblitz set the 1/16 more than let-off as an iron-clan rule? Are there other tangible effects of a larger vs. a smaller drop?

I apologize for these questions if they seem naïve.

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#2067352 - 04/19/13 09:55 PM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1165
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant

So, if I may, is the main purpose of drop to provide "drop velocity", as it were, which I guess would have a substantive effect on post-escapement feel? Why, I wonder, would Reblitz set the 1/16 more than let-off as an iron-clan rule? Are there other tangible effects of a larger vs. a smaller drop?


Greetings,
Something must stop the repetition lever. The purpose of the drop is to keep the hammer out of the string excursion zone. As far as why Reblitz specified that dimension, I don't know. I have gotten good responses by setting the drop and the let-off to the same distance. There may be more insurance available with a lower drop, as extra pressure on the key will raise an unchecked hammer a slight bit. It is worth keeping in mind that the lower the drop, the earlier in the keystroke the pianist encounters the spring, causing more effort at pianissimo playing.
Another consideration is that the simultaneous contact of the tender and drop screw creates a feel to escapement that many prefer to a staggered contact. For this to happen, the geometry has to be very tightly controlled.
Regards,

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#2067430 - 04/20/13 02:47 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]
musicbased Online   happy
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 99
Loc: UK
Thanks for the replies,that makes sense.
Very helpful as always Ed!..
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www.soundcloud.com/musicfield

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#2067455 - 04/20/13 05:10 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: Supply]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Supply
0.5 mm aftertouch is very much on the slim side and may not be enough to enable positive checking on a pp blow.


Yes , with somehow firm punchings particularely. If the intention is to have the strongest tone it is OK but other parameters may suffer (the tone may be hard and a little noisy, as the hammer impact is stronger, and heard sooner before tge tone appears.

Those kind of regulations are typically corrected by the use of thicker jack cushion felt, that is then locking the whippen spring . Nevertheless the hammer check is then compromised where the tails are the shorter and the hammers heavier .. Low mediums.

But the touch and feel of an old not well rebuild action can be made firmer with that trick , I have seen used to sell old grands ... Power sensation at the key, plus stronger tone with the white front punchings.

Using firm punchings in old pianos is a long time known trick, was done here with one white felt (harder usually) and ne red (soft) together. Worked perfectly as long the 20 mm punchings had some quality felt, but today they are often done in low resiliency, medium grade felt and the sensations are so so (plus they pack soon )

The keybed, keys, and action have to be not too sonorous to use firm punchings , a colleague use the opposite , with polyurethane foam punchings to avoid impact noises (asked by a recording studio first)

There is a trade off to find there, depending of the tonal behavior of the piano mostly...
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#2067457 - 04/20/13 05:17 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: Ed Foote]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7573
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant

So, if I may, is the main purpose of drop to provide "drop velocity", as it were, which I guess would have a substantive effect on post-escapement feel? Why, I wonder, would Reblitz set the 1/16 more than let-off as an iron-clan rule? Are there other tangible effects of a larger vs. a smaller drop?


Greetings,
Something must stop the repetition lever. The purpose of the drop is to keep the hammer out of the string excursion zone. As far as why Reblitz specified that dimension, I don't know. I have gotten good responses by setting the drop and the let-off to the same distance. There may be more insurance available with a lower drop, as extra pressure on the key will raise an unchecked hammer a slight bit. It is worth keeping in mind that the lower the drop, the earlier in the keystroke the pianist encounters the spring, causing more effort at pianissimo playing.
Another consideration is that the simultaneous contact of the tender and drop screw creates a feel to escapement that many prefer to a staggered contact. For this to happen, the geometry has to be very tightly controlled.
Regards,


Hello it have to do with the control at piano nuances, better raise of friction on the knuckle (particularly if the action is overcentering 3 mm ir more) the jack is compressed on its cushion, the moment it begin to move for letoff is better perceived with the 2 mm drop. It sort of say to the finger the letoff is coming...

drop just sync with letoff but the jack is back of its static position when playing.


Edited by Olek (04/20/13 05:25 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2067473 - 04/20/13 06:25 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1279
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
In my experience, with a given close letoff and appropriate rep. spring tension, too much drop means the key has to rise more before the jack resets, which affects repetition negatively. Too little drop and double striking may occur on soft blows, caused partly by the hammer not checking. And since the hammer has to "drop" a certain distance before it is checked, less drop means less efficient checking.
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Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2067555 - 04/20/13 10:14 AM Re: drop/check relationship [Re: musicbased]
musicbased Online   happy
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 99
Loc: UK
Hello Isaac, just wondering,what do you mean when you say "Those kind of regulations are typically corrected by the use of thicker jack cushion felt, that is then locking the whippen spring"?
Why would a regulation with a firm punching need correcting?-I love the crisp feel of actions with the firm crescendo punchings. I find them to give maximum power, which can then be controlled. I haven't noticed any problems with more impact noise, but perhaps i've been lucky!
I much prefer them to spongy wishy washy ones!
Yes, i don't always set aftertouch that small though, it depends on the piano, but the firm punchings certainly allow a more precise aftertouch and regulation.
Maybe i misunderstood what you meant though..:)
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Technician UK
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