Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
138 registered (accordeur, AndyJoe, Anne'sson, aceydawg, acollins, ando, 41 invisible), 1589 Guests and 20 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2068053 - 04/21/13 02:05 PM S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide.
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Recently I mentioned improving the sound in the low bass region of a Steinway model "M", which I characterized as typically sounding like an old-fashioned screen door spring. I asserted that this tonal inadequacy was due to defects inherent in the "M" design and that redesign could improve the tone.

Both the "screen door spring" assertion and the redesign claim were met with a degree of skepticism. There was one suggestion that all that was needed was voicing. So, I submit this sound sample. In each series of tracks the first is always a brand new NY S&S "M" on the floor of a Steinway dealer and the second is always the rebuilt "M" from the early 20th century located adjacent to the new piano. There are several tracks but really the first tracks showing note #4-C and #7-Eb make the point. If "screen door spring" isn't an accurate description of the new piano sound, I invite other descriptions. Also, I couldn't achieve this through voicing if I needled until the cows came home. If you think this is merely a voicing challenge, I'd like to know more.

Here's the link:
https://www.box.com/s/p1db95f7tr346dqa2em1
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#2068055 - 04/21/13 02:08 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
I'm impressed. What did you do? Rescale?
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

Top
#2068086 - 04/21/13 03:10 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Piano #2 has noticeably better tone quality in the bass. So, what did you do to it?
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2068102 - 04/21/13 03:41 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2348
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I have been changing all the low single string unisons to double wrap-with smaller cores at the bottom 4 notes of Sty M's that I rebuild since the mid-1970's. They sound better and clearer than the stock specs. Now with the Paulello type O wire for cores they can be made even better because you can use less wrap and still get low enough inharmonicity and reduced longitudinal mode production. I have an article coming in the PTG Journal sometime soon titled "Hybrid Wire Scales" which describes the protocols.

I am currently rebuilding an M which converts note 27 and 28 to stainless wound tri-chords on type O wire. The piano will sound bigger and less nasal at the break. This is an exciting time for improving small piano scales with these new wire types because they offer a new way to control and minimize the negative effects of longitudinal modes.


Edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT (04/21/13 04:10 PM)
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2068107 - 04/21/13 03:51 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21823
Loc: Oakland
Neither piano sounds particularly well-tuned to me, especially in the bass.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2068109 - 04/21/13 03:55 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
I noticed that the tuning was out as well, but point is about timbre not tuning.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

Top
#2068137 - 04/21/13 04:45 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21823
Loc: Oakland
Some of the issues seem to be with the bass strings, rather than voicing or tuning. Bad tuning makes it difficult to tell, as well as throwing one off when trying to evaluate other issues.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2068141 - 04/21/13 04:48 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Brick Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 373
That a rescaling of the bass might dramatically improve the sound would not be a surprise to me. However that is not proven here because we are dealing with 2 different pianos of vastly different ages and presumably different hammers as well. I would expect them to sound different in any case. I would also expect them to sound different with strings from 2 different string makers, even if they are technically the same scale design. What would prove it to a finer point would be a before & after comparison of the same piano, being recorded exactly the same way.

That being said, I tend to believe your assertion it is the modified scale making the improvement. It just "sounds that way" to me, though that is hardly a scientific observation. But I have dealt with brand new pianos in which we replaced the bass strings with a rescaled set, and the difference was night and day- the "tubby" Chinese bass scale changing to a sound something like the best of the old American pianos, and power (dynamics) improving greatly. But also the new strings were from a high quality custom maker, whereas the Chinese strings are who-knows-what sort of quality.

Top
#2068153 - 04/21/13 05:17 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Brick]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Brick
That a rescaling of the bass might dramatically improve the sound would not be a surprise to me. However that is not proven here because we are dealing with 2 different pianos of vastly different ages and presumably different hammers as well. I would expect them to sound different in any case. I would also expect them to sound different with strings from 2 different string makers, even if they are technically the same scale design. What would prove it to a finer point would be a before & after comparison of the same piano, being recorded exactly the same way.

That being said, I tend to believe your assertion it is the modified scale making the improvement. It just "sounds that way" to me, though that is hardly a scientific observation. But I have dealt with brand new pianos in which we replaced the bass strings with a rescaled set, and the difference was night and day- the "tubby" Chinese bass scale changing to a sound something like the best of the old American pianos, and power (dynamics) improving greatly. But also the new strings were from a high quality custom maker, whereas the Chinese strings are who-knows-what sort of quality.


Very well put.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

Top
#2068220 - 04/21/13 08:37 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2348
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I should have mentioned in my earlier post that I agree with Keith about stock low single strings on a Sty M sounding like "Screen door springs".
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2068229 - 04/21/13 08:51 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
Overall, I like the first piano better than the second. Musically speaking that is.

Kieth, can you give us some information on the ages of the pianos and a description of the work of each?


Edited by Larry Buck (04/21/13 08:53 PM)
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

Top
#2068328 - 04/21/13 11:41 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1771
Loc: London, England
Both need tuning and much tone regulating. Judging by the way you played the same note three times, I suspect there is a difference in the way you play each piano. But let's assume there isn't. Although, because I am continually listening to fine pianists, I find that banging out notes in this manner is, to me, the equivalent of listening to a trombone player or violinist taking their 4th or 5th lesson. The piano is one of the few instruments anybody can walk up and do this to.

The second piano has glaring tonal flaws above the break that just might be insurmountable and, although it sounds "very nice," there is a distinct loss of potential power below the break. How does it balance with the treble? How complete is the dynamic range?
The real sonoriy of a piano never comes across on any recording but the basic problems in each piano Are readily apparent here.

I used to prep NY Steinways by the truckload(literally) in the days before they lacquered th hammers in the factory. The M was my least favourite but could be made to sound completely different from your example with no loss of dynamic range available to the pianist.

If you are genuinely asking us to decide, the least you can do is to tune and tone regulate each piano to its full potential or to the best of your ability. I feel vaguely insulted that you asked us to "decide" without at least attempting this.

If you are trying to make a point, your bias shows and amply demonstrates a few of the problems with many, perhaps most 'improved' rebuilds.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2068337 - 04/21/13 11:58 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
Now that everybody has attracted my attention to the tuning, I had to listen once again.

I tried to listen with "organic and musical" ears as opposed to "scientific" ears.

To me, the second piano sounds way better.

I have good speakers and microphones, I know about recording pianos.

Given the limitations of the medium that we use to communicate, the nature of the piano, it is impossible to really tell how good the modifications are.

But, I applaud people, musicians and techs that have the courage to do so.


I still think the second piano sounds better, and I don't feel insulted having been asked.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

Top
#2068365 - 04/22/13 01:17 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
OK, just a bit more background.
First of all, as stated in the original post this is about the low bass -- not upper bass or midrange or treble. Some people who have heard the piano notice a "night and day" difference between the two adjacent pianos. I thought I'd put up a recording to get additional response.

So, please keep the discussion oriented primarily to your assessment of the lowest bass octave

Recording comments:
First of all, yes, both pianos are not perfectly in tune. For single-string unisons, do people think a few cents matters in this assessment? There is an audible false beat on note #4-C on piano #1. All the tuning in the world won't make that go away.
The first piano is new NY S&S "M" -- meaning it has never been sold. I'm not sure how long it has been on the sales floor. I don't know what the dealer does in the way of prep. It seemed rather little, but all the prep in the world isn't going to make the low bass issue go away.
The second piano is a refurbished "M" from the 1910-20 era.

Microphone is a USB Blue Yeti going directly into Garage Band on a Macbook. Better than the built-in notebook microphone but a number of folk here have better equipment. Garage Band is adequate to the purpose.

Recording session was impromptu at the music dealer's during their open hours when I walked in and had a bit of time to make the recording without conflicting with customers. No time for tuning. Both were judged about equally out of tune and with voicing glitches. The second piano will receive thorough going over after having received 20-30 hours of playing (which the dealer gets from adjacent music conservatory). In any event, the focus is on the lowest bass notes where a few cents plus or minus shouldn't affect ability to judge an order-of-magnitude difference.

The tonal deficiencies of the low bass in the S&S M are well-known and pervasive through production of that model due to design deficiencies. I didn't think there would be any challenge on that point. At the venue in question, the "M" bass was inferior the other grands of the same size including lesser instruments like Boston and Young Chang of similar size.

My attempt was to make as "honest" a recording as possible in the amount of time I had. The display in Garage Band shows similar amplitude for the tracks from both pianos. Microphone placement was either equidistant from both or identically located on each piano -- depending on the particular pair of tracks. All track pairs had identical microphone placements.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2068482 - 04/22/13 06:41 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2358
Loc: Lowell MA
How old are the bass strings on piano one?
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

Top
#2068556 - 04/22/13 10:19 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1075
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
It's a new unsold piano sitting on the sales floor. Excerpt from Keith's last post below.



"The first piano is new NY S&S "M" -- meaning it has never been sold. I'm not sure how long it has been on the sales floor. I don't know what the dealer does in the way of prep. It seemed rather little, but all the prep in the world isn't going to make the low bass issue go away.
The second piano is a refurbished "M" from the 1910-20 era."
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#2068604 - 04/22/13 11:26 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Dale Fox]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
At this point I'm still looking for the answers to a question -- actually two questions.
1) Can you hear a difference between piano #1 and piano #2?
2) Which do you prefer?
3) Ok, perhaps a third, If you detect a tonal difference between the two, is it very subtle and hard to detect or is it a significant, obvious difference?

This is not intended as a trick question or test. In our line of work opinions and theories lose their relevance (or not) by what difference they actually make to what we hear and feel. At this point, let's not get lost in what may be the technical differences between the pianos. After I get more responses about what people are hearing, the details will be fully described.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2068654 - 04/22/13 01:08 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Andrew Ranger Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 60
Loc: Missoula Montana
I want to remind people that this is not about the tuning, hammer selection or other things! It's about the low bass. People are commenting on almost everything but the bass tone. Please stick to kpembrook's original question!



1) Yes, I can hear a difference between the pianos.

2) I prefer piano #2, it's considerably better in my opinion.

3) I think the difference is a significant, easily detected difference.
_________________________
Andrew Ranger
Piano Technician

Top
#2068658 - 04/22/13 01:25 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Andrew Ranger]
musicbased Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 105
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Andrew Ranger
I want to remind people that this is not about the tuning, hammer selection or other things! It's about the low bass. People are commenting on almost everything but the bass tone. Please stick to kpembrook's original question!



1) Yes, I can hear a difference between the pianos.

2) I prefer piano #2, it's considerably better in my opinion.

3) I think the difference is a significant, easily detected difference.




Same here for all the questions. The 2nd one is much nicer sounding in the low bass IMO.
_________________________
Technician UK
www.soundcloud.com/musicfield

Top
#2068729 - 04/22/13 03:15 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1553
I'll call it as I hear it..1st piano sounds like it has.. a farty twang
2nd piano much better.. I hope I'm not being too technical.. smile

Top
#2068735 - 04/22/13 03:19 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Brick Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 373
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
At this point I'm still looking for the answers to a question -- actually two questions.
1) Can you hear a difference between piano #1 and piano #2?
2) Which do you prefer?
3) Ok, perhaps a third, If you detect a tonal difference between the two, is it very subtle and hard to detect or is it a significant, obvious difference?


1) Significant
2) #2
3) See 1)

Top
#2068768 - 04/22/13 04:09 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1253
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
1) Yes

2) I prefer the lowest notes of Piano #2 when played by themselves. However, I don't like either piano once other notes are added to the lower ones. My opinion may or may not change if the pianos were in tune.

3) There is an obvious difference.
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

Top
#2068781 - 04/22/13 04:39 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2058
Loc: Suffolk, England
1) Yes
2) Prefer #1 in general
3) #1 more interesting in the raw.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2068992 - 04/23/13 12:08 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Brick]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Brick
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
At this point I'm still looking for the answers to a question -- actually two questions.
1) Can you hear a difference between piano #1 and piano #2?
2) Which do you prefer?
3) Ok, perhaps a third, If you detect a tonal difference between the two, is it very subtle and hard to detect or is it a significant, obvious difference?


1) Significant
2) #2
3) See 1)


Thanks for the on-topic responses. Please keep 'em coming. It is interesting to see the returns.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2069000 - 04/23/13 12:18 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
rysowers Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2472
Loc: Olympia, WA
This is interesting! Thanks for putting this out there, Keith!

The difference is obvious.
The first has a more open although somewhat "gong like" sound to my ear. It has more of what I think of as the Steinway "growl".

The second seems to have more fundamental but also sounds a little more closed off.

I must admit my computer speakers are not so great. I'd sure love to try the pianos in person! It would also be nice to hear some real music on the pianos. In the context of music, I wonder if the first would actually have more clarity and the second might sound a little muddy.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

Top
#2069004 - 04/23/13 12:25 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Tunewerk Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 414
Loc: Boston, MA
Out of the ballpark difference, Keith. Piano #2 is much better and any good pianist would gravitate towards it.

What was done?
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

Top
#2069046 - 04/23/13 01:30 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1771
Loc: London, England
There's something weird about this thread. If you want opinions on the last few notes only, what was the point in recording the entire lower half of the pianos? It does help to hear things a bit more in context, though.

Was the recording so covert there wasn't a few minutes to at least tune them? Im sure the owner of the pianos would let you if he knew your intent in making the recordings. If you say a few cents doesn't make that much difference, what is that a reflection of???

A competent tech familiar with Steinways would, indeed know how to vastly improve the notes you seem to think are unserviceable. It's an open secret how it is done but few have the expertise and experience.

Sure, there is a vast difference between the two pianos. My question is, which piano has the most potential?, given the attention of a really competent piano tech and played by a first class pianist.

Sure, the second piano sounds " nice" but I can't tell from your recording how it balances the piano, what is the dynamic range? Can it sound spectacular should a competent pianist require it? It sounds as though it will remain " nice" in all contexts. One of the main reasons many "nice" pianos are rejected is their inability for the pianist to get a wide variety of sounds from it. This piano would be perfect for a " nice" house and nice people playing nice music. That is the vest majority of the commercial piano market.

I would prefer to hear both pianos played by a really good pianist even as they are in their current condition instead of the notes being thumped out in this grade school fashion. I think we would all be surprised.

I just heard a uTube of a pianist who is coming to play a piano I look after. It was readily apparent that the piano she recorded on was not in the finest condition but she made it sound good.
When I was in the 'States, it seemed every radio station had a neglected upright in a corner of a newsroom somewhere. It happens here too, We are asked to tune them in an hour for a promo or something. I used to worry that the general condition was dreadful. Not any more.... I have always been amazed at how a real pianist can make the most musical sounds out of a piano I have been rather embarrassed to be associated with.

What was your last question? Oh, yes, the difference is large, as it is between most pianos. More than one great philosopher has said "comparisons are odious" before Shakespeare said it.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2069075 - 04/23/13 02:11 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21823
Loc: Oakland
The reason that I mentioned that the pianos were out of tune is that the first note on the first piano exhibits some beating, and is significantly flatter than the same note on the second. Sometimes beating of a unison bass string is due to a bad string, and sometimes it will go away if the string is pulled up to pitch. I do not feel it is fair to compare pianos on the basis of what might be a defective part, and especially not on the basis of the quality of the tuning.

Then I was mystified by some beating in the second piano in higher notes, which could be tuning. Since this evidently was the "idealized" piano, I would have thought that it would have been tuned carefully before recording.

I think the second piano sounds better. I do not think the first piano is hopeless. I also feel that Steinways usually sound better with age. Maybe it sounds better because of the 90 year old soundboard!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2069093 - 04/23/13 03:04 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
At this point I'm still looking for the answers to a question -- actually two questions.
1) Can you hear a difference between piano #1 and piano #2?
2) Which do you prefer?
3) Ok, perhaps a third, If you detect a tonal difference between the two, is it very subtle and hard to detect or is it a significant, obvious difference?


1. Yes.
2. #2
3. The difference is striking. Piano #1 has a really crappy sounding bass... metallic, harsh, dirty tone. Piano #2 bass has depth and sounds pure.

FWIW, I'm using high-end head phones.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2069175 - 04/23/13 08:06 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: beethoven986]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: beethoven986

FWIW, I'm using high-end head phones.


This may be a variable that I hadn't considered. If anyone is listening to this through standard computer speakers then it may not be possible to detect the differences and make a reliable statement.

For future responses, please indicate what you are using to listen to the recording.

Thanks again for the responses.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2069196 - 04/23/13 08:24 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2058
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: beethoven986

FWIW, I'm using high-end head phones.

This may be a variable that I hadn't considered. If anyone is listening to this through standard computer speakers then it may not be possible to detect the differences and make a reliable statement.

I have some good headphones but I agree with what Ryan Sowers said after listening on his not so great computer speakers; about #2 in particular.

Originally Posted By: rysowers
... The difference is obvious.
The first has a more open although somewhat "gong like" sound to my ear. It has more of what I think of as the Steinway "growl".

The second seems to have more fundamental but also sounds a little more closed off.

_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2069238 - 04/23/13 10:00 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Keith,

I'm listening to this through small speakers on my monitor, but will listen later on small but OK-ish headphones and edit this post if needs be.

I can clearly hear
... the beating (longitudinal mode?) on the low bass of piano 1 - albeit not at all equally on all notes!
... the cleaner, beatless partial envelopes of most notes on piano 2.

That being said, I find the timbre of the low bass on piano 1 much nicer. It's clearer and brighter. That of piano 2 seems closed-up, somewhat muffled, perhaps a bit "wooden" (sorry, I'm not a pro with all the right vocab at my fingertips).

As far as I can hear, there are some notes on piano 1 that don't have a false beat. As examples, I submit A#0, D1, F1, G#1. These sound really good to me - in fact, much nicer than piano 2, because they have such a clear, bright and rich timbre. That's the tone I would wish for, not that of piano 2.

So, if it's about elimination of false beats (at the expense of clarity and brightness?), I prefer piano 2. If it's about timbre (paying the price of false beats?), I prefer piano 1. But can one not have the best of both worlds, i.e. bright, rich clarity without false beats?

(BTW, I think octave 1 on piano 2 is not entirely free of false beats either. I seem to hear one e.g. on G#1.)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2069272 - 04/23/13 11:13 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1075
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
#1 Definitely different
#2 Favor #2 but don't particularly like it. More below
#3. Huge difference

As Ryan said, #2 sounds sort of 'closed off'. My description would be, tonally limited. My conclusions without seeing the piano would be that at the least the core wire is about .051" instead of the normal.063" and that something akin to a German loop is used at the hitch. Likely a very soft, cold pressed new set of hammers.

You (purposely?) haven't given us much info on what has been done to the older #2 piano so we're all guessing at this point.

My guess is that adding a little bit of lacquer to the shoulders of those hammers on #2 would give a bit fuller harmonic range to the bass string response. This might help with that "closed off" sound and it still wouldn't have to sound like the trashy indistinct noisy clanging coming off the originally poor scaling choices of #1

Listening on really cheap speakers.
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#2069303 - 04/23/13 12:00 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Dale Fox]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
I'm really appreciating the various responses. It's really educational to learn what people are listening to and listening for and how that can vary amongst a group that all (presumably) have trained ears.

Keep the comments coming, folk.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2069966 - 04/24/13 12:39 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1724
Loc: Massachusetts
The difference between 1 and 2 is like night and day. After listening with high-quality headphones, I would say that #1 is terrible. It's a bass note with no depth or roundness. It sounds like it had virtually no energy in at least the fundamental and 2nd harmonic, and perhaps not even the 3rd harmonic. I would also describe it as not having a distinct frequency--it was more like a buzz than a musical tone. I suppose it's the result of a hard hammer, a string with a heavy core with a single wrap, and a cantilevered bass bridge. Could it sound better with a different hammer skillfully voiced? Yes, I think so. #2 was considerably improved, but like others on this thread, I think there is something lacking in its tone. Its sound was described as closed, which is about as good a description as I can muster.

Top
#2070055 - 04/24/13 04:10 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Ed A. Hall Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 266
Glad it's not only my piano because my Steinway M from the mid 50's sounds very similar.
https://www.box.com/s/bzk57n5rud7jcm06j42p

Top
#2070113 - 04/24/13 05:31 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Ed A. Hall]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Ed A. Hall
Glad it's not only my piano because my Steinway M from the mid 50's sounds very similar.
https://www.box.com/s/bzk57n5rud7jcm06j42p


Yup. I thought it was pretty much general knowledge that this is the typical S&S "M" low bass sound.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2070321 - 04/24/13 11:20 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1075
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Gee Keith, isn't that the wonderfully complex tone and completely unidentifiable pitch that only a scale with telephone pole thickness core wire and a virtually nonexistent back scale, coupled to a cantilever that ensures that no possibility of good tone should escape, comes from? Could be worse. Could be a model "S".

At least we have a consistent reference available from which to measure progress!
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#2070327 - 04/24/13 11:26 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Dale Fox]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Dale Fox
Gee Keith, isn't that the wonderfully complex tone and completely unidentifiable pitch that only a scale with telephone pole thickness core wire and a virtually nonexistent back scale, coupled to a cantilever that ensures that no possibility of good tone should escape, comes from? Could be worse. Could be a model "S".

At least we have a consistent reference available from which to measure progress!


Hey Dale, you're getting ahead of me here.
smirk
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2070370 - 04/25/13 12:57 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 578
Loc: CO, USA
Make no mistake, I'm a newbie here, but it sounds like Piano 1, especially in the earlier part of the recording is having the keys pounded more harshly. With piano 2, the keys are being pressed more gently. Loudness also depends on mic position.

I get a sweeter fundamental sound when I press the low bass keys (C1 = 32.7 Hz, for example) on my '33 M gently and optimally to get a good tone, and cranky harmonics when I pound the keys.

I'll have to listen on various speakers to conclude on which I like better. Interesting exercise.
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin
F. Chopin, Prelude 28 (15)

Top
#2070385 - 04/25/13 01:15 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: phacke]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: phacke
Make no mistake, I'm a newbie here, but it sounds like Piano 1, especially in the earlier part of the recording is having the keys pounded more harshly. With piano 2, the keys are being pressed more gently. Loudness also depends on mic position.


This issue has already been covered. As I said earlier, the amplitude of the waveforms are approximately equal and there was equal placement of the mics for each track pair. (Although not every track pair is mic'ed from the same location).
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2070389 - 04/25/13 01:21 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: phacke
Make no mistake, I'm a newbie here, but it sounds like Piano 1, especially in the earlier part of the recording is having the keys pounded more harshly. With piano 2, the keys are being pressed more gently. Loudness also depends on mic position.


This issue has already been covered. As I said earlier, the amplitude of the waveforms are approximately equal and there was equal placement of the mics for each track pair. (Although not every track pair is mic'ed from the same location).


When do we get to the part where you tell us what you did? I wanna know! wink
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2070400 - 04/25/13 02:03 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 578
Loc: CO, USA
Yes, I see now that you covered that, but my ears nevertheless tell me a softer hit for whatever reason on the string on piano 2 in the early part of the recording.
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin
F. Chopin, Prelude 28 (15)

Top
#2070412 - 04/25/13 03:03 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1075
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: Dale Fox
Gee Keith, isn't that the wonderfully complex tone and completely unidentifiable pitch that only a scale with telephone pole thickness core wire and a virtually nonexistent back scale, coupled to a cantilever that ensures that no possibility of good tone should escape, comes from? Could be worse. Could be a model "S".

At least we have a consistent reference available from which to measure progress!


Hey Dale, you're getting ahead of me here.
smirk


Yeah, sorry about the run on sentence...............
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#2070537 - 04/25/13 10:08 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: phacke]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: phacke
Yes, I see now that you covered that, but my ears nevertheless tell me a softer hit for whatever reason on the string on piano 2 in the early part of the recording.


It may be the same phenomenon as when hearing something over the radio. Bandwidth is limited but we can tell when a voice or music piece is louder by the harmonic content. Same thing may be happening here where the first piano emphasizes higher harmonics (because the lower ones don't even exist as one poster noted).
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2070613 - 04/25/13 12:06 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Davepost Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/13
Posts: 116
Loc: Hudsonville, Western Michigan,...
Wonderful improvement!
_________________________
David Postma, Associate Member, PTG Lansing, Michigan Chapter. www.davepostma.com Conover 9 ft. 4" (Mason & Hamlin CC-1)

Top
#2071745 - 04/26/13 06:15 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Ok, folks. Keep those cards and letters coming! Er... that is ... your evaluations of the sound file.

We are getting good responses but I'd like a few more. On Monday, all will be revealed. Thanks for the responses so far.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2071828 - 04/26/13 10:17 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1075
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
I can now sleep tonight knowing that all will be revealed in time. We await with baited breath, Keith.
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#2071838 - 04/26/13 10:35 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1253
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
On Monday, all will be revealed.


Just don't tell us that piano #1 is "actually" a Whitney spinet. But, if it IS, then it sounds great! whome
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

Top
#2071877 - 04/27/13 12:11 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Dale Fox]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Dale Fox
I can now sleep tonight knowing that all will be revealed in time. We await with baited breath, Keith.


Yes. I understand curious minds want to know.
laugh
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2071880 - 04/27/13 12:13 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Eric Gloo]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Eric Gloo
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
On Monday, all will be revealed.


Just don't tell us that piano #1 is "actually" a Whitney spinet. But, if it IS, then it sounds great! whome


This is a great idea . . . I need to track down a Whitney and record it. I don't think I have one in my clientele base anymore.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2071901 - 04/27/13 01:16 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: Eric Gloo
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
On Monday, all will be revealed.


Just don't tell us that piano #1 is "actually" a Whitney spinet. But, if it IS, then it sounds great! whome


This is a great idea . . . I need to track down a Whitney and record it. I don't think I have one in my clientele base anymore.


One of my churches has one. It's never tuned.... gonna get thrown out this summer! smile
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2071906 - 04/27/13 01:24 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
apianostudent Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 128
Loc: CA
Kpembrook,

Quick question. What hammer was used in the 2nd piano? I'm assuming the first was Steinway hammers.

Top
#2071911 - 04/27/13 01:35 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: apianostudent]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: apianostudent
Kpembrook,

Quick question. What hammer was used in the 2nd piano? I'm assuming the first was Steinway hammers.


As I said . . . All will be revealed on Monday.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2071984 - 04/27/13 08:12 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: beethoven986]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1075
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: Eric Gloo
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
On Monday, all will be revealed.


Just don't tell us that piano #1 is "actually" a Whitney spinet. But, if it IS, then it sounds great! whome


This is a great idea . . . I need to track down a Whitney and record it. I don't think I have one in my clientele base anymore.


One of my churches has one. It's never tuned.... gonna get thrown out this summer! smile


What's the hold up?
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#2072005 - 04/27/13 09:09 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
sound as the second piano have basses wound on softer wire may be also used on plain wire near the break.

probably due to my equipment but none of those 2 pianos seem voiced to me (nor tuned) the tone is compact and does not develop well.
May be just due to the tuning but I doubt of it.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2072025 - 04/27/13 09:52 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1540
Loc: Danville, California
I think the first piano would see an improvement immediately if you would close the screen door.

Top
#2072082 - 04/27/13 12:04 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: beethoven986]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
One of my churches has one. It's never tuned.... gonna get thrown out this summer!


But does it need tuning??
laugh
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2072164 - 04/27/13 02:37 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 578
Loc: CO, USA
Mr. Akins,

Again, I am a newbie here, but am paying close attention to this thread because the piano technician that last regulated my piano recommended that the next thing I do is to replace the original bass strings because of some oxidation and anticipation of better and stronger sound.

I had in fact previously asked the tech about some of this buzzing, he said it was characteristic of Steinway and Yamaha. So maybe this is part of the characteristic sound. I seem to hear some of that gritty buzzing sound in the bass notes pounded out here on what they say is a Yamaha CFIIIS, at 3:07, and it is an acceptable part of the character of the sound, I think.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhUn9BEN3Mk

From the posts so far, it is pretty clear that C1 on piano #1 has more buzz than #2, and I agree. My '33 M sounds somewhere in between your #1 and #2. I am satisfied with it.

I also consider the comments of Valentina Lisitsa for her choice of Bösendorfer Imperial (even though we all know she chose a Hamburg D for her most important recording). She said somewhere that she doesn't much use those 0 octave keys, it is the sympathetic resonance and soundboard real estate that those notes provide that she says she likes. So, I am wondering if the design of these lower notes have other requirements to meet other than integrity of fundamental tone when hammered. While a nice fundamental C1 is nice to have, I more value a stronger, deeper bass tones in the mid to upper part of octave 1 and octave 2.

I agree with some of the previous comments that the baritone of piano 2 seemed undeveloped in some places -- that result needs to be explained. I also agree with a previous post that it is best to record the same piano before and after making the intentional modification to limit the number of variables. (I am not taking anything away from the effort you have made so far, it is appreciated)

Most importantly, when you discus the modifications, please indicate any potential trade-offs. Yes, the C1 screen door effect in #2 is reduced which you sought to focus, and you have convincingly shown, but how is sustain and power affected in the lower octaves of the piano based on the intended modification, in theory and in the actual results? After all, people won't be acting based on optimizing the sound of C1 and such low notes alone.

Thank you.




Edited by phacke (04/28/13 12:15 AM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin
F. Chopin, Prelude 28 (15)

Top
#2072178 - 04/27/13 02:49 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21823
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: Eric Gloo
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
On Monday, all will be revealed.


Just don't tell us that piano #1 is "actually" a Whitney spinet. But, if it IS, then it sounds great! whome


This is a great idea . . . I need to track down a Whitney and record it. I don't think I have one in my clientele base anymore.


Better yet, track down a Whitney and make the bass sound better!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2072243 - 04/27/13 04:07 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Dale Fox]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: Dale Fox
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: Eric Gloo
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
On Monday, all will be revealed.


Just don't tell us that piano #1 is "actually" a Whitney spinet. But, if it IS, then it sounds great! whome


This is a great idea . . . I need to track down a Whitney and record it. I don't think I have one in my clientele base anymore.


One of my churches has one. It's never tuned.... gonna get thrown out this summer! smile


What's the hold up?


Waiting for next year's budget to be approved.

Originally Posted By: kpembrook

But does it need tuning??
laugh


Yes, and new key bushings and regulation. But, it's going to be thrown out, along with three of their other pianos.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2072343 - 04/27/13 06:34 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: phacke]
jim ialeggio Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 732
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: phacke

I also consider the comments of Valentina Lisitsa for her choice of Bösendorfer Imperial (even though we all know she chose a Hamburg D for her most important recording). She said somewhere that she doesn't much use those 0 octave keys, it is the sympathetic resonance and soundboard real estate that those notes provide that she says she likes. So, I am wondering if the design of these lower notes have other requirements to meet other than integrity of fundamental tone when hammered. While a nice fundamental C1 is nice to have, I more value a stronger, deeper bass tones in the mid to upper part of octave 1 and octave 2.


This is an excellent comment!

I would extend the comment to include the entire bass and tenor. I find that the partial profile of the the bass and tenor to a large degree creates the color that the a piano takes on as a whole...assuming a vibrant and live board.

Repeat though, assuming a live board. The board has to be highly responsive, as a tired board will not be able to couple those partials well or at all. My take is that #1& #2 are both non-responsive boards.

While I hear a low bass sound in #2 that I vastly prefer over the zero pitch content #1, the board/scaling/tuning on #2 in the tenor and low treble does not have the ability to create its own register appropriate partial structure. It is getting very little to no coupling help from the whatever partials the bass supplying. Perhaps #1's higher partial content is coupling a bit helping #1's tenor/low treble to be a little more musical than #2's, but they are both in need of more significant structural work.

Given the right structural conditions, the changes made to #2's low bass should be able to be enjoyed while also enjoying register appropriate low tenor/high bass and tenor sounds. Take #2 back to the shop...it needs more work, but is moving in the right direction.

My 2cents...but excellent comment on the importance of coupling.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

Top
#2072434 - 04/27/13 09:17 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
There are several tracks but really the first tracks showing note #4-C and #7-Eb make the point. If "screen door spring" isn't an accurate description of the new piano sound, I invite other descriptions. Also, I couldn't achieve this through voicing if I needled until the cows came home.


Haha... you go on needling that screen door spring, you! Regarding your A/B tests, it´s like night and day. How did you fix the alive-and-not-so-nicely-kicking syndrome of an untreated M?
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

Top
#2072592 - 04/28/13 01:54 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: jim ialeggio]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: phacke
I also consider the comments of Valentina Lisitsa for her choice of Bösendorfer Imperial (even though we all know she chose a Hamburg D for her most important recording). She said somewhere that she doesn't much use those 0 octave keys, it is the sympathetic resonance and soundboard real estate that those notes provide that she says she likes. So, I am wondering if the design of these lower notes have other requirements to meet other than integrity of fundamental tone when hammered. While a nice fundamental C1 is nice to have, I more value a stronger, deeper bass tones in the mid to upper part of octave 1 and octave 2.


This is an excellent comment!

I would extend the comment to include the entire bass and tenor. I find that the partial profile of the the bass and tenor to a large degree creates the color that the a piano takes on as a whole...assuming a vibrant and live board.

Repeat though, assuming a live board. The board has to be highly responsive, as a tired board will not be able to couple those partials well or at all. My take is that #1& #2 are both non-responsive boards.

While I hear a low bass sound in #2 that I vastly prefer over the zero pitch content #1, the board/scaling/tuning on #2 in the tenor and low treble does not have the ability to create its own register appropriate partial structure. It is getting very little to no coupling help from the whatever partials the bass supplying. Perhaps #1's higher partial content is coupling a bit helping #1's tenor/low treble to be a little more musical than #2's, but they are both in need of more significant structural work.

Given the right structural conditions, the changes made to #2's low bass should be able to be enjoyed while also enjoying register appropriate low tenor/high bass and tenor sounds. Take #2 back to the shop...it needs more work, but is moving in the right direction.

These two comments (quoted above) pretty much sum up my approach to the bass section. As I go about redesigning old scales (or designing new ones, for that) my goal is not to provide a killer A-1 but to provide the most musical lower third of the piano’s compass, i.e., the “bass”, that I possibly can. Unfortunately, many technicians and pianists alike tend to evaluate the bass performance of small pianos—and here the Model M must be considered to be a small piano—based on the tone quality of the lowest two or three notes alone; forming our evaluation based on the sound of just those notes—and those played loudly!—with little consideration given to the rest of the story.

Musicality through the bass section demands many things besides lots of “power” from those lowest two or three notes. Indeed, if you get the rest of it right, power will pretty much take care of itself; these are, after all, small pianos intended for small spaces. Musicality requires a smooth timbral balance across the bass-to-tenor transition along with good clarity (and a power center as close to the fundamental as possible) in all]/i] of the notes throughout the “bass” section along with a good timbral dynamics from [i]pianissimo to forte. It’s not that those lowest two or three notes are not important—they are¬—but, musically, all of these other things are much more important in defining a good-sounding bass section.

The shorter the piano, of course, the more elusive these goals become but they are still possible. It will be interesting to read about what Keith as done with his piano but these things are no longer rocket science; the basic technical requirements of both string scaling and soundboard considerations for good, musical bass performance have been discussed in any number of technical seminars and written about in several technical forums.

I agree with those who have complained that there are some problems with the recordings Keith has provided for us but even so, given what I am able to hear through my Bose noise-cancelling headsets it sounds like he has made good progress along the path toward musicality in the bass section of this piano. Yes, I’d like to hear better recordings (especially longer samples of each note) and I’d like to hear the results of better tuning and voicing (and even, perhaps, better hammers) but at least he now has something to work with.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#2075674 - 05/02/13 07:30 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
jim ialeggio Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 732
Loc: shirley, MA
Keith...

What happened to your promised followup on what you did here?

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

Top
#2076888 - 05/03/13 10:03 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: jim ialeggio]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1223
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Keith...

What happened to your promised followup on what you did here?

Jim Ialeggio


Yeah, what's up with that?
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

Top
#2076923 - 05/04/13 12:03 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: jim ialeggio]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Keith...

What happened to your promised followup on what you did here?

Jim Ialeggio


Apologies, everyone. I have been seriously slowed down with sciatic pain.
Tuned for a concert (nice M&H CC) on THU, had to lay on the floor 4 times to ease nerve pressure. Sitting in my office is OK. Driving is OK. Tuning has been doable. Can't stand for more than a very few minutes. Work in the shop languishes . . .

Spinal surgery is scheduled for next Friday. In the mean time, I should be able to get the summary up in the next day or two.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2077210 - 05/04/13 03:27 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Anne'sson Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/12
Posts: 153
Loc: El Paso, TX
Keith, back pain such as you describe is excruciating. I speak from experience. I hope your surgery goes well.
_________________________
Anne'sson
El Paso, TX

Top
#2077372 - 05/04/13 08:18 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Anne'sson]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 578
Loc: CO, USA
Indeed, Mr. Akins, get well soon!
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin
F. Chopin, Prelude 28 (15)

Top
#2077434 - 05/05/13 12:11 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2405
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Sorry to hear about your back Keith...hope the surgery helps.

Been busy with work.....For me, the 2nd piano sounds better. I was never a fan of the Steinway M sound, however your work on the 2nd piano improves the low bass. Anxious to hear what you did. smile

Top
#2078002 - 05/06/13 12:21 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
OK, I didn't say which Monday, did I? blush laugh

Hopefully, I'll get this all down right. I recently spoke with a technician colleague who had great pain prior to a hip replacement. We both agreed from direct experience that I.Q. goes down as pain goes up. The neurosurgeon has me off my pain meds in preparation for my back surgery on Friday. Anyway, here goes . . .

Piano #2 is Steinway "M" # 198131 mfg ~1919 originally ebonized but at the time I received it with a hideously-done faux walnut woodgrain finish. The soundboard was flat and really in need of replacement. However, the piano came to me from a S&S dealer with the mandate to make of it what I could without a new board. As is my practice, after rebuilding, it was delivered to the dealer in functional condition, tuned and regulated but not voiced. The orders I gave was what I typically do: play the piano at least 20-30 hours and I will then do final regulation, tuning and voicing. (They are right near a music conservatory.) I had no idea that upon delivery it would be parked nearby a brand new S&S "M"

Piano #1 is a new-from-NY-factory, never-been-sold model M with nothing notable --for better or worse-- to set it apart from what one would expect of that well-known model.

The occasion for the recording was when I stopped in to see if the 1919 piano had gotten enough playing hours to warrant me to schedule spending the time for the final fine voicing and regulating. I brought my laptop and microphone (Blue "Yeti" USB mic and Garage Band on MacBook running latest OSX Mountain Lion) with the thought that if it worked out, I would make a recording.

It seemed that the pianos were at a comparable level of preparedness. It had been 6 weeks since I had delivered the 1919 piano and the tuning was drifting although nominally at pitch and final prep was not done. There are definitely voicing issues and I might change a couple of upper bass strings, too. The tuning on the new piano was also nominally at pitch but also a bit wobbly. Prep on the new piano -- if it had ever been done-- was at best indifferent. It didn't seem fair to compare a highly prepped piano to one that wasn't -- and I don't even have authority to tune the new piano as I'm not their regular technician. Also, there were no customers in at the moment so I hurriedly set up the equipment, made a preliminary test and then took the samples -- hoping to finish before a customer came in, as it was during regular store hours. (The upper level pianos are somewhat isolated from the main sales floor that has the cheaper pianos and digitals. You may be able to hear some sound drifting in from that part of the venue.)

What was done to the piano was done as a holistic effort to get reasonable sound out of a dead board. I think it was a success from the standpoint that generally speaking the 1919 piano sounds generally comparable to the new one. It is just in the low bass where there is a clear superiority. (About 30 of you agreed with that assessment while only about 5 preferred the new piano in the bass).

Technical work included Wapin bridge modification, Cadenza hammers on WN&G shanks/flanges, moving the hitch pins back in the top two treble sections to create greater back scale. In the bass, the bridge apron was cut off and a new cap mounted on the bridge body with notches for the bichords and bridge placed directly over the attachment of apron to soundboard except at the low end the bridge is about half on a little stub of apron and half directly over the soundboard attachment point. The strings are Profundo by Isaac wound with stainless steel and hard copper and using Isaac's proprietary swaging procedure.

Some people expressed that while the 1919 piano low bass sounded better than the new piano, it wasn't great. I'd agree. Final voicing should improve that but we still aren't going to get a 7 or 9 foot piano sound out of it. It is better, though.

There were other procedures that might have been done with a different mandate. I could have made an entirely new bass bridge with direct attachment to the soundboard rather than using the existing attachment point. (So the original bridge shape was used, instead of, say, a parabolic segment.) However, that would have been easy with a new board and pulling up the existing apron attachment had the prospect of being ugly based on other existing soundboard splitting in the area. (Surprisingly there were no splits on the front side of the long bridge and few on the back side.) Also, one might have played with core wire material. And greater flexibility in the bass could have been engineered in to a new board. It also might be helpful to have a vertical hitch pin. I judged it wouldn't be worth the effort and would be a "Baldwin" appearing feature on a Steinway in a Steinway dealership. The rest of the work is not readily obvious to the non-technician.

Some one has already identified the reason why the bass sounds so deficient (in the majority opinion). There is no backscale before the helix winding for the hitch loop. The bass strings are essentially immobilized by their attachment to the hitch pins just behind the bridge. Also, the bridge apron acts as a motion-reducer and harmonic filter, weakening and obscuring whatever tone might be in the string.

The big takeaway here for me is this is an excellent illustration of what happens when one parameter (in this case string length) is maximized at the expense of other legitimate parameters (in this case, back scale and bridge to soundboard direct contact). Even though the strings are a good 2"+ shorter, they sound better. (Yes, not great, but better).

The other takeaway is the recognition that tonal preference--and even perception-- is not completely universal. I respect the respondents who preferred the new piano.

I'm glad that Del Fandrich commented on this thread. I want to give credit to my learning some of the modifications from him but don't want to imply that he authorized, approved, or was even aware of this work -- which was admittedly a more cobbled version of what he does in order to achieve a result at a price point. I am still learning and wish to give credit to those who have helped me to this point.

OK, I'm waiting for the barrage of comments . . .
smile
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2078039 - 05/06/13 01:27 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1075
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
So I'm curious, will you reinforce the shoulders of the hammers a bit to increase the upper harmonics? Also, what is the core on A0 now?
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

Top
#2078069 - 05/06/13 02:26 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21823
Loc: Oakland
If you do so much at one time, you cannot really isolate any change to one particular thing. It may be that an old soundboard is not the detriment that some people claim it is!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2078180 - 05/06/13 08:33 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: BDB]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you do so much at one time, you cannot really isolate any change to one particular thing. It may be that an old soundboard is not the detriment that some people claim it is!


I'm not sure how to take this comment. Do you replace soundboards? Do you have decades of experience evaluating what happens with pianos rebuilt with new boards and pianos rebuilt without?

Overall, the piano was horrible before and now it is quite adequate. I'm satisfied that the techniques I described are responsible for the effect everyone heard in the low bass. It's really quite straightforward:
1) The symptoms are well known.
2) The causes have been identified -- although many might not be aware.
3) Addressing the identified causes made the symptoms go away.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2078195 - 05/06/13 09:15 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: Dale Fox]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Dale Fox
So I'm curious, will you reinforce the shoulders of the hammers a bit to increase the upper harmonics? Also, what is the core on A0 now?


Probably will reinforce with dilute plexiglas. These hammers also respond well to ironing.

I had Ari do the re-scaling based on string lengths I sent him. I don't know the diameters. Maybe I'll take some measurements when I see the piano again.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2078256 - 05/06/13 11:12 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3485
Loc: US
Hi Keith,
Hope you feel better and the surgery is a success! I had commented over on the Piano Forum originally but the discussion seems to be over here now. Thanks for the information on what was done. The bass improvement is quite good, but I would have to disagree with your statement above that "I think it was a success from the standpoint that generally speaking the 1919 piano sounds generally comparable to the new one. " (except for the low bass). As I mentioned in my original post over on the PF ( before I knew the state of "Piano 2"), the tenor and upper bass still sounds like the product of an old tired board. With more work, the results for the 1919 might improve, but that also might be the case for putting some prep into the new piano. Thanks for posting all this-- it was very interesting and I hope all goes well in your recovery!

Sophia

Top
#2078274 - 05/06/13 11:41 AM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21823
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you do so much at one time, you cannot really isolate any change to one particular thing. It may be that an old soundboard is not the detriment that some people claim it is!


I'm not sure how to take this comment. Do you replace soundboards? Do you have decades of experience evaluating what happens with pianos rebuilt with new boards and pianos rebuilt without?

Overall, the piano was horrible before and now it is quite adequate. I'm satisfied that the techniques I described are responsible for the effect everyone heard in the low bass. It's really quite straightforward:
1) The symptoms are well known.
2) The causes have been identified -- although many might not be aware.
3) Addressing the identified causes made the symptoms go away.


My comment addresses the methodology of determining the causes of any change there may be, nothing more.

I do have decades of experience evaluating what happens with pianos rebuilt with new boards and pianos rebuilt without, and I have determined that it is usually not worth replacing boards.

The last time I had a direct comparison, it was between two Steinway Os made about the same time. One spent most of its life in upstate New York, while the other was near Philadelphia before coming out west. One had its board replaced about 40 years ago, the other did not. I could not hear any differences that could be attributed to the soundboard. However, the only conclusion that I could make from that comparison is that there is no inherent reason to believe that soundboards inevitably get worse as they get older.

Incidentally, let me give you a famous example of your three steps:

1) The symptoms are well known.

Oil on the shock absorbers.

2) The causes have been identified -- although many might not be aware.

Mechanic puts car on the lift and squirts oil on the shock absorbers, says they are leaking and need to be replaced. Car owner is unaware.

3) Addressing the identified causes made the symptoms go away.

Paying the mechanic to replace the shocks made the symptoms go away.

That is just an example of how methodology may be incorrect.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2078279 - 05/06/13 12:01 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Above some dimension, enlarging backscales make a loss of clamping an less energy is provided to the bridge.

Which dimensions did you use , so I could understand and compare with what is considered "optimum"

mounting new strings and action parts, and making a wapin transformation is considered light repair ?

I guess I would have used new hammers and get an adequate tone with voicing. I know a lot of Steinways with old panels and they do not need so much work to be musically playeable in my opinion.

Anyway, strangely none of the 2 instruments have the usual power (hence my comment about voicing, as the base of tonal power is allowed by hammers.)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2078284 - 05/06/13 12:13 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: BDB]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: BDB
If you do so much at one time, you cannot really isolate any change to one particular thing. It may be that an old soundboard is not the detriment that some people claim it is!


I'm not sure how to take this comment. Do you replace soundboards? Do you have decades of experience evaluating what happens with pianos rebuilt with new boards and pianos rebuilt without?

Overall, the piano was horrible before and now it is quite adequate. I'm satisfied that the techniques I described are responsible for the effect everyone heard in the low bass. It's really quite straightforward:
1) The symptoms are well known.
2) The causes have been identified -- although many might not be aware.
3) Addressing the identified causes made the symptoms go away.


My comment addresses the methodology of determining the causes of any change there may be, nothing more.

I do have decades of experience evaluating what happens with pianos rebuilt with new boards and pianos rebuilt without, and I have determined that it is usually not worth replacing boards.

The last time I had a direct comparison, it was between two Steinway Os made about the same time. One spent most of its life in upstate New York, while the other was near Philadelphia before coming out west. One had its board replaced about 40 years ago, the other did not. I could not hear any differences that could be attributed to the soundboard. However, the only conclusion that I could make from that comparison is that there is no inherent reason to believe that soundboards inevitably get worse as they get older.

Incidentally, let me give you a famous example of your three steps:

1) The symptoms are well known.

Oil on the shock absorbers.

2) The causes have been identified -- although many might not be aware.

Mechanic puts car on the lift and squirts oil on the shock absorbers, says they are leaking and need to be replaced. Car owner is unaware.

3) Addressing the identified causes made the symptoms go away.

Paying the mechanic to replace the shocks made the symptoms go away.

That is just an example of how methodology may be incorrect.


I only replace soundboards when it will make a difference. The fact that there are indeed soundboards still functioning at a high level after many years has nothing to do with replacing dead boards. It seems that your evaluation experience of a dead board vs. the new board on the same piano is zero. The fact that some boards are lively after many years doesn't compel the conclusion that all boards are lively after many (and in S&S case even a few) years. There are plenty of pianos with dead boards out there. You should have seen at least a few.

So, the pianos that were rebuilt without new boards were determined not to need them. The pianos that were rebuilt with new boards were determined the old board would not be satisfactory -- at least over the expected life of the rebuild-- so new boards were installed. Either way, you have a good piano which may be comparable in performance. But that says nothing about what was necessary to get to that performance level.

The oil on shock absorber is also very poor logic. The element present in that example which is missing in this is that there was someone deliberately "cooking" the results. What are you implying?

Also, this is not something just out of my head -- or unknown to a wide range of practitioners -- even though it may not be generally known by everyone involved in piano technology. It's straightforward science. What is the constant, what is the variable?
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#2079851 - 05/09/13 01:51 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: kpembrook]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2405
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hello Keith,

Your experience with Wapin and Ari Isaac's hammers and bass strings parallels ny experience with my M&H RBB. After adding Wapin, and later, his hammers, there was a remarkable and positive difference in the quality of the tone. Early on in the rebuild process, we had already switched to his bass stings, and that in and of itself made an appreciable difference in the overall tone of the piano.

In my case, it was not necessary to replace the soundboard, thankfully. I was considering it, but after my rebuilder said it was not necessary, and with the advice of several of the PW techs, it remained. The tone/timbre of the piano is simply remarkable.




Edited by Grandpianoman (05/09/13 02:49 PM)
Edit Reason: correction

Top
#2079878 - 05/09/13 02:58 PM Re: S&S "M" low bass improvement: You decide. [Re: BDB]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 359
Loc: UK
I take that your argument by analogy implies that there was nothing wrong with the pianos in the first instance?
Just curious, but then surely the owner of the motor car must have had some reason for taking the vehicle to the garage in the first place.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Happy Thanksgiving
by JoelW
11/27/14 01:12 PM
HAS ANYONE EVER PLAYED THIS?
by LuisFelix
11/27/14 12:29 PM
Piano evening at my teachers house
by Peter071
11/27/14 10:04 AM
Freelance collaborative pianist - money issues
by MiguelSousa
11/27/14 10:02 AM
Help for this student.... Notes!
by IPlayPiano
11/27/14 09:44 AM
Forum Stats
77067 Members
42 Forums
159398 Topics
2341515 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission