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#2070630 - 04/25/13 12:19 PM Appasionata Practice Problem
tobevirtuoso Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 59
Hi everyone
I find it's hard to play bar 14-15(running semiquaver notes). How can I master it? It's hard to get equally sound.

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#2070636 - 04/25/13 12:28 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Yeah, no kidding. That's one of the hardest passages in Beethoven. Not only are the notes themselves difficult, but the placement of the passage on the first page is psychologically difficult.

I finally got it after changing my fingering several times. I now have something that works for me. Good fingering is extremely important, and there are a *lot* of options here.

-J
_________________________
Schubert Immersion: Bb Impromptu; C# minor and Ab Moments Musicaux; accompanying four songs (Suleika II, Rastlose Liebe, Du Liebst Mich Nicht, Im Fruhling); listening intensely to Die Schöne Müllerin and Winterreise

Chopin: first Ballade; Mozart: D minor concerto;

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#2070666 - 04/25/13 01:10 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: matsuev
Hi everyone
I find it's hard to play bar 14-15(running semiquaver notes). How can I master it? It's hard to get equally sound.

What's your fingering?
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2070677 - 04/25/13 01:31 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
tobevirtuoso Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 59
I use the fingerring : (Right Hand)4-2-5-1-4-2 1-5-2-4-1-3 1-5-2-4-1-3 1-5-2-4-1-3 1-5-2-4-1-3 (Left Hand)5-3-2-1-3-2 (Right Hand)1-2-4 and then chord
I have the problem at the first right hand.

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#2070684 - 04/25/13 01:49 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
If you're a huge cheat, consult von Bulow's alternating-hand solution!
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2070687 - 04/25/13 01:52 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: Philadelphia
Yep, and I think I see why that might be. Any chance the problem is either the B-flats, or more-likely the E-naturals? If so, try this:

1. Play the pickup triplet with the LH
2. Play the run with this fingering: 314142 152514 152514 (repeat)
3. LH comes in 542121 (3 is a stretch for me).

You will have to get over onto the 2 for the descending B-flats, but everything else is a very small movement.

Let me know how that works out for you. This felt very comfortable when I tried it at speed, so there could be underlying issues I'm currently unaware of if you find it not working. smile


Edit: You may not like the redistribution. Some people are hardcore about it being played "only in the right hand". No idea why, but if you're one of them, try this:

pickup triplet with 12
Run starts 525142, then use the above for the descending line.


Edited by Derulux (04/25/13 01:56 PM)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2070712 - 04/25/13 02:41 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: Derulux]
tobevirtuoso Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 59
Thank you for you advice.
1525 is hard and I have to practice. However,I can play at the speed but I can't play each note sound equally. How can you do this?

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#2070714 - 04/25/13 02:43 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: Kuanpiano]
tobevirtuoso Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 59
Do you have a file of von Bulow's or a link?

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#2070719 - 04/25/13 02:51 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
tobevirtuoso Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 59
Ok I see the Von Bulow fingering on imslp. His fingering suggestion is the same as I use.

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#2070731 - 04/25/13 03:06 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: matsuev
Thank you for you advice.
1525 is hard and I have to practice. However,I can play at the speed but I can't play each note sound equally. How can you do this?

Chances are very good that you are not playing with your whole arm. You're probably "brushing" the notes, particularly with the 24 on the Bb-E. The reason this is common is because the stretch from 4(E) to 1(G) is a little larger, and the passage is fast. So, what happens is, your hand opens up a little more and you think you have to get to the "left" faster to play the G sooner. But you actually have to get all the way to the "right" so you can land on the E. This compounds with the 1(G) to 3(Bb). With your hand a little farther to the right because 3 is on Bb instead of 4, you really have to move laterally to the left to keep it going, and you have to move in a place where you then immediately have to move real fast to get down to the 2(Bb).

So, the fingering I chose is meant to combat this a little, by keeping your hand "naturally" farther to the "left" (using 4 and not 3), so you can get all the way back to the "right" without feeling like you're moving too much, or not moving fast/fluidly enough.

If you can post a video of you playing this, once fast, so I can see what's causing the issue, and once slow, so I can see if it's a "speed thing", I can probably get into some more details with you that are specific to what it is you're doing. This is just a best guess based on common mistakes with these types of arpeggiated runs.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2070745 - 04/25/13 03:23 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
I don't have the score with me but I'm wondering if this is the passage that Emanuel Ax talks about in a Beethoven documentary. He felt that Beethoven wrote it for the right hand as intentionally difficult and as a way to "show up" the competition in Vienna. He joked in the movie that Beethoven might have played the passage while holding his left hand up in the air smile


Edited by antony (04/25/13 03:24 PM)

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#2070750 - 04/25/13 03:34 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: antony]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: antony
I don't have the score with me but I'm wondering if this is the passage that Emanuel Ax talks about in a Beethoven documentary. He felt that Beethoven wrote it for the right hand as intentionally difficult and as a way to "show up" the competition in Vienna. He joked in the movie that Beethoven might have played the passage while holding his left hand up in the air smile


Maybe, but it sounds like something he would have done earlier in life, when he was concertizing and showing off more.

-J
_________________________
Schubert Immersion: Bb Impromptu; C# minor and Ab Moments Musicaux; accompanying four songs (Suleika II, Rastlose Liebe, Du Liebst Mich Nicht, Im Fruhling); listening intensely to Die Schöne Müllerin and Winterreise

Chopin: first Ballade; Mozart: D minor concerto;

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#2070764 - 04/25/13 03:55 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
the nosy ape Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 723
Loc: Westford, MA
I use the same fingering as you. I do not think there is any secret to it, just lots of slow practice making sure everything is even and then slowly increasing the tempo.

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#2070817 - 04/25/13 05:33 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
emilypianist89 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/12
Posts: 82
Rotation is a huge key and helped me a lot! I also tried the Bulow alternate fingering and found it helpful too!
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Private Piano Teacher

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#2070827 - 04/25/13 05:46 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: Bay Area, CA
The problem with Bulow's hand-distributed solution is that we have to play the same passage in the recapitulation with the RH only anyway. It's true that the recap version feels less exposed, and perhaps doesn't require the same level of clarity. Still, I feel we might as well learn just a single fingering for this thing.

I have no hesitations with hand redistribution in general; I use one for the Bb minor arpeggios in the coda of this movement.


-J
_________________________
Schubert Immersion: Bb Impromptu; C# minor and Ab Moments Musicaux; accompanying four songs (Suleika II, Rastlose Liebe, Du Liebst Mich Nicht, Im Fruhling); listening intensely to Die Schöne Müllerin and Winterreise

Chopin: first Ballade; Mozart: D minor concerto;

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#2070990 - 04/25/13 09:39 PM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: antony]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7776
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: antony
I don't have the score with me but I'm wondering if this is the passage that Emanuel Ax talks about in a Beethoven documentary. He felt that Beethoven wrote it for the right hand as intentionally difficult and as a way to "show up" the competition in Vienna. He joked in the movie that Beethoven might have played the passage while holding his left hand up in the air smile

I've seen that documentary, and there are several interesting things I learned from it. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2071241 - 04/26/13 04:45 AM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
natty_dread78 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/10
Posts: 116
Hello,
Indeed, I wouldn't advise alternating hands for the same reason as beet. I use the fingering suggested in my edition (one of the editions found in imlsp): 425142-152413-152413-152413-1524. I found that the most difficult part of the passage is the first 6 notes, when it ascends. When it descends, it's really not that complicated when you get the motion. You may try to work the passage in ryhtms, by 2 (accented and paused on the 1st note, then on the 2nd), by 6 (accented and paused on the 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd... until 6th). You may also try to play the whole passage by groups of 2 notes (played at the same time). That will help to get the correct motion of the hand, and placement of the fingers.
The passage is technically not so difficult (when compared to other passages in the sonata), but it is indeed very exposed, which makes it quite risky.


Edited by natty_dread78 (04/26/13 04:45 AM)

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#2071398 - 04/26/13 10:56 AM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
tobevirtuoso Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 59
Hey guys,
Ok from the voice recording. It sounds OK even though not good enough compared to what I've listen.

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#2071980 - 04/27/13 07:58 AM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: tobevirtuoso]
maestro57 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 38
Loc: Canada
Oh my gawd, someone shoot me in the face!

This "passage" drives me absolutely nuts! No matter how much I practice this part, I cannot get it to be played properly all the time. The worst part about it, I think, is the anticipation of it. Knowing its difficulty, and that it's coming up after the calm, tension-filled bars that precede it, it makes it all worse. It's freaking psychological.

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#2071982 - 04/27/13 08:07 AM Re: Appasionata Practice Problem [Re: natty_dread78]
pianopaws Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 71
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: natty_dread78
You may try to work the passage in ryhtms, by 2 (accented and paused on the 1st note, then on the 2nd), by 6 (accented and paused on the 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd... until 6th). You may also try to play the whole passage by groups of 2 notes (played at the same time). That will help to get the correct motion of the hand, and placement of the fingers.


thumb
_________________________
M.M., Piano performance and pedagogy
Member, MTNA and NCMTA

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