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#2072448 - 04/27/13 09:52 PM Horowitz Playing Ravel?
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Apparently, unicorns do exist.


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#2072451 - 04/27/13 09:56 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7605
Loc: New York City
I don't get the joke, although somehow I feel like there is supposed to be one... ha

Mind tipping me off as to what it is? grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2072499 - 04/27/13 11:07 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2146
Loc: Canada
OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE A RECORDING EXISTS!?

I'll listen later, but so excited....
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2072527 - 04/27/13 11:51 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Is that definitely Horowitz on this recording?

It's a fairly wild performance, with a few clangers here and there. It's interesting, though I'm not sure I really love it. Seems a little underprepared for the recording.

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#2072528 - 04/27/13 11:53 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: ando]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7605
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: ando
Is that definitely Horowitz on this recording?

It's a fairly wild performance, with a few clangers here and there. It's interesting, though I'm not sure I really love it. Seems a little underprepared for the recording.


Horowitz did plenty of wildness and clanging in a lot of pieces. And where did you get that it was a recording? It doesn't actually say it anywhere-could be a live performance. smile
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Polyphonist

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#2072551 - 04/28/13 12:36 AM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 545
Loc: New York
Horowitz or not, it sounds a tad messy.

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#2072560 - 04/28/13 12:46 AM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: didyougethathing]
fledgehog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 273
Loc: West Hartford, CT
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Horowitz or not, it sounds a tad messy.

The recording is allegedly from the 1970s, a time during which messiness was moreso than usual a part of Horowitz's trademark sound. There's a lot in this recording that is obviously Horowitzian - the dryness of the fast passages, the attack of the low bass octaves, etc.

I know he programmed this particular piece a lot in his younger days. Now if we could only hear him playing the first two movements - I'm already in love with the imaginary recording of Horowitz playing Ondine that exists only in my head!


Edited by fledgehog (04/28/13 12:51 AM)

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#2072583 - 04/28/13 01:34 AM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Thracozaag Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 1980
Loc: Salt Lake City
If that's Horowitz, then I'm the King of England.
_________________________
"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/

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#2072643 - 04/28/13 05:57 AM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Thracozaag]
maxmila Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 71
Actually it sounds much more like Alphonse Sauer than Horowitz. smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4vfZ6WE5oU

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#2072657 - 04/28/13 07:15 AM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Polyphonist]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
"it"..."could be a live performance." smile


But then we wouldn't be able to listen to it would we?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2072674 - 04/28/13 08:05 AM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: stores]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
"it"..."could be a live performance." smile


But then we wouldn't be able to listen to it would we?


Precisely, it's a recording because we can download and listen to it on the internet.

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#2072803 - 04/28/13 12:58 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: ando]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7605
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
"it"..."could be a live performance." smile


But then we wouldn't be able to listen to it would we?


Precisely, it's a recording because we can download and listen to it on the internet.

It could be a recording of a live performance...that's normally what is meant by the phrase...
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Polyphonist

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#2072815 - 04/28/13 01:11 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: fledgehog]
didyougethathing Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/11
Posts: 545
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: fledgehog
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Horowitz or not, it sounds a tad messy.

The recording is allegedly from the 1970s, a time during which messiness was moreso than usual a part of Horowitz's trademark sound. There's a lot in this recording that is obviously Horowitzian - the dryness of the fast passages, the attack of the low bass octaves, etc.

I know he programmed this particular piece a lot in his younger days. Now if we could only hear him playing the first two movements - I'm already in love with the imaginary recording of Horowitz playing Ondine that exists only in my head!


I too would love to hear him play Ondine. The piece has been my obsession for years and I've tried to listen to every recording under the sun, and I'm very picky with it; I only find a handful of performances to be "definitive." Many of my favorites are not played by the usual suspects either.


Edited by didyougethathing (04/28/13 01:12 PM)

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#2072835 - 04/28/13 02:02 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
vlhorowitz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/07
Posts: 286
This sounds nothing like Horowitz, IMHO. As broken as he was in 1983 (Japan), the tendencies were still recognizably Horowitz.

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#2072843 - 04/28/13 02:26 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
....plus, if he had really played Scarbo any time in the last 50 years, it wouldn't be unknown to us.

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#2072854 - 04/28/13 02:44 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Mark_C]
maxmila Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 71
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....plus, if he had really played Scarbo any time in the last 50 years, it wouldn't be unknown to us.


Especially in the last 25 years or so. grin
But, as I wrote before, that recording comes from here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4vfZ6WE5oU

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#2072856 - 04/28/13 02:48 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Polyphonist]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
"it"..."could be a live performance." smile


But then we wouldn't be able to listen to it would we?


Precisely, it's a recording because we can download and listen to it on the internet.

It could be a recording of a live performance...that's normally what is meant by the phrase...


Don't be so pedantic. My comments were about the music I was hearing, not the occasion of the "recording".

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#2072861 - 04/28/13 02:51 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: didyougethathing]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Originally Posted By: fledgehog
Originally Posted By: didyougethathing
Horowitz or not, it sounds a tad messy.

The recording is allegedly from the 1970s, a time during which messiness was moreso than usual a part of Horowitz's trademark sound. There's a lot in this recording that is obviously Horowitzian - the dryness of the fast passages, the attack of the low bass octaves, etc.

I know he programmed this particular piece a lot in his younger days. Now if we could only hear him playing the first two movements - I'm already in love with the imaginary recording of Horowitz playing Ondine that exists only in my head!


I too would love to hear him play Ondine. The piece has been my obsession for years and I've tried to listen to every recording under the sun, and I'm very picky with it; I only find a handful of performances to be "definitive." Many of my favorites are not played by the usual suspects either.


Haha, likewise! And since my own command of the piece has improved, I find that my taste in performances has changed too. I certainly heard Ondine differently before I could play it and became intimately acquainted with the score.

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#2073082 - 04/28/13 08:11 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Mark_C]
fledgehog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 273
Loc: West Hartford, CT
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....plus, if he had really played Scarbo any time in the last 50 years, it wouldn't be unknown to us.


The recording supposedly comes from the extensive vaults of Horowitz recordings at Yale, and who knows what else is locked away in there. It doesn't sound like a really professional/properly mastered recording, most likely it was informal. According to this website, the last time he played Scarbo in public was in 1940, but perhaps in the 70s he was considering bringing it back into his concert rep, practiced it and decided not to play it for some reason, and this recording is from a rehearsal of some sort.

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#2073085 - 04/28/13 08:15 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: vlhorowitz]
fledgehog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 273
Loc: West Hartford, CT
Originally Posted By: vlhorowitz
This sounds nothing like Horowitz, IMHO. As broken as he was in 1983 (Japan), the tendencies were still recognizably Horowitz.


I'd say this sounds pretty distinctively like Horowitz - it's in the dryness of the middle and upper register and the booming/clanging of the low registers - listen at around 2:48, only Horowitz could play that low octave like that. The climax around 4:40 has Horowitz written all over it. If it really were a fake, whoever faked it did a damn good job of studying and imitating Horowitz's tendencies.

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#2073140 - 04/28/13 09:15 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Thracozaag]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Thracozaag
If that's Horowitz, then I'm the King of England.


Hasn't this one been shown to be fake?
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#2073173 - 04/28/13 10:13 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Horowitzian]
Thracozaag Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 1980
Loc: Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: Thracozaag
If that's Horowitz, then I'm the King of England.


Hasn't this one been shown to be fake?


Where's my scepter and crown? whistle
_________________________
"I'm a concert pianist--that's a pretentious way of saying I'm unemployed at the moment."--Oscar Levant

http://www.youtube.com/kojiattwood
https://www.giftedmusicschool.org/

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#2073176 - 04/28/13 10:22 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4783
Loc: USA
Doesn't sound like his playing or his piano.

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#2073190 - 04/28/13 11:05 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: maxmila]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: maxmila
Actually it sounds much more like Alphonse Sauer than Horowitz. smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4vfZ6WE5oU


Wow. That's crazy... It does sound exactly the same. I guess this isn't Horowitz after all! I was skeptical the entire time, but had no solid evidence, but this changes things. Koji, I guess you aren't the king of England after all! And I guess unicorns do not exist.


Edited by Orange Soda King (04/28/13 11:07 PM)

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#2073204 - 04/28/13 11:19 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
I'm surprised any of us thought for more than a second that it might be for real....the main reason being that no major piece that Horowitz performed in recent decades would have gone under the radar.

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#2073212 - 04/28/13 11:30 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Orange Soda King]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
It got me for a short while, because I'm honestly not incredibly well versed when it comes to Horowitz.. I usually don't listen to him that much. He was legendary, but often not my cup of tea.

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#2073242 - 04/29/13 01:41 AM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Mark_C]
fledgehog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 273
Loc: West Hartford, CT
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
I'm surprised any of us thought for more than a second that it might be for real....the main reason being that no major piece that Horowitz performed in recent decades would have gone under the radar.


Just because he never performed something doesn't mean he never played it/made an informal recording of it.

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#2073247 - 04/29/13 02:01 AM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: fledgehog]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: fledgehog
Just because he never performed something doesn't mean he never played it/made an informal recording of it.

(On a stage like that?)

Yes it does! (For Horowitz? Yeah.)

And besides that: Pardon the same refrain again ha ....the existence of such a recording by him of this piece would never have flown under the radar all these years -- and even if it did and then suddenly surfaced like this, it would be big news and we all would have heard about it. We wouldn't be learning of it casually from a post on this site.

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#2073279 - 04/29/13 04:44 AM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4783
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

And besides that: Pardon the same refrain again ha ....the existence of such a recording by him of this piece would never have flown under the radar all these years -- and even if it did and then suddenly surfaced like this, it would be big news and we all would have heard about it. We wouldn't be learning of it casually from a post on this site.


This makes the most sense.

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#2073481 - 04/29/13 01:22 PM Re: Horowitz Playing Ravel? [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
A while ago I said in another thread that the image of Horowitz seems to be fading as time goes on, probably especially in the younger generations (which makes sense). I don't mean how good he's considered to have been; I'm talking about how large a figure he was. Many people seem not to realize it, and I think the belief that this could really have been Horowitz might reflect that.

It's not like Horowitz was a household word (not quite), but among many many people, especially serious pianists, he was a HUGE figure, truly "a legend in his own time," and they hung on everything he did. Any performance he gave anywhere, any piece he was supposedly playing, anything whatever -- many many people were happily obsessed over it, and the news got passed along, including that articles about him were written constantly. The idea that he could have played a major piece and that it wouldn't have become common knowledge in the music world is like thinking it would have been possible for the Beatles or Elvis to have done some famous song anywhere without it becoming known for 40 years. Forget it. Not impossible, I suppose, but so unlikely that it's pretty close to impossible.

Just to be clear: I don't blame anyone for thinking otherwise. I think all it means is that the image of Horowitz is fading (as probably happens for anyone after their lifetime) and therefore things like this aren't obvious to people who weren't around at the time or weren't yet into classical piano very seriously.

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