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#207337 - 11/04/05 02:37 PM Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
serge1paris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 163
Loc: Paris
Bluthner are not easy to find in Paris but it seems they are opening a show room. Very few instruments at this stage (arriving one by one). In the next future they are supposed to have all grands and uprights in exhibition.

As we can read so many compliments about Bluthner on this site I was eager to test them and compare with my recently purchased 1981 Hambourg Steinway B .

I played a Model 4 just received from Leipzig. A very nice instrument. Nice Renner action, nice keyboard, singing treble and warm medium. Nonetheles the bass was lacking power and was unable to roar. Model 4 is the same size as Model B and thirty percent cheaper in Paris.

Everything considered Hambourg B sounds better to me and the two instruments are not quite in the same league : much better bass (more defined and powerful) sounding warmer and deeper, more subtleties in the medium and treble. And Steinway has better projection (something I don't really need in my home but can interest some other people). I didn't make much difference with the action, both are good and both are Renner even if they probably have different specifications.

I was told to try Model 2, a bigger instrument with more bass. I am sure Model 2 will be more in line with my expectations...


I would be very happy to live with Bluthner Model 4 if I had no other option, it is an excellent instrument. But I was pleased to check by myself that all the Steinway bashing on this site is just plain nonsense.


Regarding Irmler, they told me these are manufactured in China and prepped in Germany. They had two uprights, good for their price but quite ordinary.

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#207338 - 11/04/05 03:18 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3249
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Bluthner and Steinway instruments are really different. If you are looking for the things that a Hamburg Steinway excels in, in a Bluthner, you will be dissapointed. I am surprised that you didn't feel any action differences, as these are very obvious, and the Hamburg Steinway action, and the Bluthner action are designed so differently, even if they share manufacturers in many of the parts.

My experience is that pianists that prefer a Steinway, often really don't relate to a Bluthner. Our Bluthner customers who are high level players, are almost never comparing with Steinway. Bosendorfer is always the competition for our Bluthners. And although I don't sell new Bosendorfers, I find it common that serious players that prefer Steinway, often just don't understand the appeal of Bosendorfer either.

Also, any piano fresh out of the box, even a Bluthner, requires a lot of work to bring out its potential, and is at a disadvantage in being compared with a piano that is settled and worked on. If you heard that Bluthner after it had been worked on thoroughly, multiple tunings, multiple regulation passes, insightful voicing, and after it had been played in for at least a couple of months, I am sure your opinion would be different. You very likely might still prefer your Hamburg Steinway, but the Bluthner would have shown itself better at that point.
Now, of course, there are many exceptions, and there are certainly high level players who will prefer a Bluthner, or a Bosendorfer, in certain repertoire, and a Steinway in other repertoire.

The Bluthner has such a specific voice, that if you aren't familiar with it, it takes a bit to get used to it. But when you hear a Bluthner played right, it is really a gorgeous sound that no other piano can produce.

Additionally, the Steinway bashing you read here is generally about New York Steinways, as most people on this sight have very little experience with Hamburg Steinways.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#207339 - 11/04/05 03:20 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
AJB Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 3655
Loc: Surrey, England
Thanks for this post, very informative as I am considering such pianos right now. Bluthner is next on my list of pianos to try, if all goes according to plan. I do like the idea that the same family has owned the company and made them from the beginning (with a slight diversion caused by nationalisation). And I am drawn to some of the ideas they have, particularly their take on the Duplex idea.

I liked the Steinway B too. And The D. Both of which I saw at Steinway Hall in London.

My girlfriend thought my mispronunciation of the Bluthner name was highly amusing.

Kind regards

Adrian
_________________________
S&S Hamburg D, Yamaha CLP 280


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#207340 - 11/04/05 03:36 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20744
Loc: Oakland
Like a lot of other pianos, Blüthners and Steinways are fine pianos, and one should choose between them according to one's own taste. Isn't it wonderful that the piano industry offers so many fine pianos that appeal to a variety of tastes?

My current computer desktop picture has both a Blüthner and a Steinway in it.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#207341 - 11/04/05 04:09 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3249
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
You might want to add " Steinway model B" to the title of this thread. Bluthner also makes a model B piano ( an upright ).
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#207342 - 11/04/05 05:53 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
serge1paris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 163
Loc: Paris
Hi Keith,

Thank you for your comments.

I didn't find it difficult at all to relate to the Bluthner and I really enjoyed it and the voice of it.

Of course this Model 4 was fresh out of the box and the una corda pedal was not even working correctly. I appreciated a lot the singing tone and the simplicity of the sound.

Do you think voicing and a few months of playing will give a bigger bass tone? Personnally, I doubt it and if I was consideing buying a Bluthner I would go for a bigger model.

I am not exactly a Steinway addict and a Bluthner, a Steingraeber or a Bosendoerfer could make me very happy. Yamaha C6, C7 and S6 are also excellent pianos for their price.

I just found my 1981 Model B more exciting to play.I even prefered it to the brand new Steinways B (the price was eventually more attractive)but the preference was not only for price reasons.

After one year, I must say the Steinway B is also more difficult to play than the other brands. It is necessary to play very close to the keyboard and to have a very delicate touch to get beautiful sounds. Otherwise the sound can turn harsh very easily. I even had to resume piano lessons with a young virtuoso to learn how to play it efficiently ! Steinway B is more demanding than the other ones, the possibilities of graduation of the sound and dynamic shadings are unlimited and you have to manufacture your own sound. Yamaha is the easier to play with a nice ready-made sound.

Regards

Serge


PS: Keith, could you please describe the "obvious differences" with the action because I am sorry to report I didn't see much...

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#207343 - 11/04/05 06:01 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Having played both a Steinway A and a Bluthner model 6 during my search (before I got a Grotrian), I'll second Keith's remarks. They are such different beasts that a marked preference for one most likely rules out the other.

The Bluthner doesn't seem designed to roar, but to sing. It is one of the finest pianos I have ever touched as far as dynamic shading goes. The tone is also more crystalline than the Steinway.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

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#207344 - 11/04/05 06:02 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
*American* Steinway....... ;\)

norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#207345 - 11/04/05 06:05 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3249
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
Yes, a few months of playing, regulating, tuning, and voicing will bring up the bass in the Bluthner, but it will never be as powerful as a Hamburg B in good shape. They have different designs, and a really explosive bass is one of the real strengths of a good Steinway B. The quality of the sound in the bass of the Bluthner, IMO, is superior to the Steinway. The purity of bass tone in the Bluthner is really something, and this is the strength of the bass in a Bluthner.

From the way you describe your piano, it sounds like it could use some regulating and voicing. Make sure and clearly communicate the challenges you are having controlling sound on your piano to your technician.
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#207346 - 11/04/05 06:23 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
serge1paris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 163
Loc: Paris
Keith,

Maybe regulation and voicing could still improve my piano. But at one point I decided to stop improving my piano... AND START IMPROVING MY PIANO PLAYING !!

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#207347 - 11/04/05 07:35 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
I am one of those folks who is familiar with the Hamburg - I think the "C" that I play is one of the finest pianos I've ever played.

However, my ongoing experience with a similarly-sized Grotrian have underscored the C's few flaws:

The Steinway's huge bass comes at the expense of some clarity.

There is a discernable break in the tenor (though certainly not as objectionable as I've encountered on many a Steinway B).

A goodly portion of the treble seems indistinct (but only if compared directly).

An extreme pianissimo is more difficult to achieve.

In spite of these minor quirks, it is still a magnificent piano - praised by many from far & wide.

The Grotrian has taught me that there is more to life than a cataclysmic bass can provide! A well-balanced scale is perhaps the more musical of the two choices.

I'm not [/b] giving up the Hamburg any time soon however. ;\)

I'm looking forward to the day I can play a Blüthner for myself. I really like the beautiful appearance of the anniversary plate, and the striking blue-colored felt. These pianos appear very sumptuous and special.
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

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#207348 - 11/05/05 02:03 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
Onestone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 43
Loc: Crozet, Virginia
I think you will find that vintage Steinway Bs (1890s to 1932) made in NY or any Hamburg B will outplay any other piano in its size category...especially in the bass. They don't call it a Steinway "growl" for nothing! Bluthners were designed (Bechsteins too) for more warmth. It's a matter of taste. I have played them all...(I do this for a living) so be happy with your Hamburg B...they're incredible.

Randolph
http://www.charlottesvillepiano.com

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#207349 - 11/07/05 12:47 AM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
Schumann Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 84
Loc: Bloomington, IN
 Quote:
Originally posted by whippen boy:
There is a discernable break in the tenor (though certainly not as objectionable as I've encountered on many a Steinway B). [/b]
Whippen Boy,

I played a Grotrian 225 yesterday (really beautiful) and I would've said that there was a HUGE break in that register.

I think it was between B-flat and A, but the LH here definitely straddled it:



The tenor overpowered the bass to a really startling degree, and I couldn't figure out how to balance them. (And this has nothing to do with the low bass, which sounded fantastic.)

Had similar problems with the F# in that register (dead) and the C# above it (loud, loud, loud) in the Chopin Barcarolle.

It was strange enough that I wonder if I don't cheat (i.e. lean on the inner voice or underplay the bass) to accomodate the Steinway break you're talking about. Maybe I'm just not conscious of it any more.

But is that the right spot? And did you have trouble going back and forth at first? I found this really distracting...

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#207350 - 11/07/05 03:25 AM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
serge1paris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 163
Loc: Paris
My Hambourg B has been restringed last year and well prepped.
At this stage, I don't find any disturbing break and it is very homogeneous from top to bottom!

Treble is distinct and powerful (never have to bang it)and pianissimi easy to realize on all sections of the keyboard.

The keypoint is to play smart enough to control the sound and everything will come out beautifully...

I am working on that !

I agree with Whippen Boy that it can be nice sometimes to play on a discreet and elegant piano. Bluthner belongs to this category, very classy with reserved feelings. Hambourg B is more versatile, it can be reserved and classy if you want it this way but most of the time you cannot help but going for the strong and overwhelming feelings!!!

Serge

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#207351 - 11/07/05 03:45 AM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
Alex Hernandez Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 1964
I think the Hambourg B is a fine instrument and I congratulate you on your choice. I must however disagree with you with regard to versatility and Blüthner. Keith brings up great points with regard to proper preparation. The Blüthner is a highly specialized design that requires the right approach to truly shine. It also requires time, I think it takes three years in the home with regular play before the Blüthner mystique truly arrives.

I find that even the bass on the model 6 is large and impressive once the piano's true personality has arrived. We just received a Bösendorfer 185 Strauss in our store that is ablsolutely perfect right out of the crate, the voicing is sublime. We also have recieved Förster and Steingraeber pianos that were near perfectection upon delivery.

But it's the Blüthners that shatter all expectations down the road. The Hambourg Steinway is great but if you PM me your address I would like to send you a cd of the proper Blüthner sound. If nothing else you will get a more accurate Idea of the Blüthner persona.

Regards


Alex
_________________________


Blüthner USA, LLC

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#207352 - 11/07/05 12:51 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
Schumann,

Your Grotrian experience makes me wonder what was going on with that particular piano. I wouldn't expect a new Grotrian to have such uneven voicing.

I don't believe there is a physical break in the areas you mentioned. I know that a 225 has nine monochords in the lowest bass (breaking between F and F#). The bass/tenor break is at note 24/25 (A#/A). That last number is if I recall correctly - the piano is not nearby.

When I showed the new 225 to my piano tech (who was not involved in the purchase, and is a hardcore Steinway fan) she said "Hmm, I do hear a bit of a break there, but it is almost imperceptible-they did a good job with the transition". When she said that, I felt the Grotrian had passed the test!

When people come to see the piano for the first time, I like to ask them where they think the break is - and then watch them have a hard time! \:\)

I am not sure where the Steinway B break is (is it between tenor B and C?) but I always am aware of it whenever I encounter a B. Here is something Del Fandrich said on PW:
 Quote:
One of the most glaring offenders, simply because it is so well known, is the Steinway B. It has an average tension in the 155 – 165 lb range through the middle tenor section but from B#-26 (with 155 lbs.) it drops down to 115 – 120 lbs at F-21. Regardless the voicer’s skill this is going to be audible. It can be made less bad and you can grow accustomed to it, but it will never be good. (Well, it can be made good but it requires the installation of a transition bridge.)
I forget where the break is on the Hamburg C I play. It has had a lot of prep work, so the transition is fairly good - but it is still very perceptible as a break.
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

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#207353 - 11/07/05 01:34 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
I recently played a brand new Bluthner Upright belonging to a friend. It really shocked me by the dullness of the sound, not to mention the too stiff action. It had not been played much but I was very un-impressed. I therefore felt rather smug about my new Pleyel 131 which is better than some small grands.IMO

It is of course the fact that the Pleyel height 131 cms would be just under 53" to be added on to the keys and all that are part of the Grand action out beyond the pin board. A total probably not far under 6'.

I would think the Bluthner has a rather limited appeal or dedicated musical style,

Alan

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#207354 - 11/08/05 02:22 AM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
pianistical Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/04
Posts: 1377
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
I have played and been very impressed with Steinways, Bösendorfers and Faziolis. But, as for Alex, down the road it is the Blüthner that wins my heart. No other piano moves me the same way.

As the Blüthner tone is such a delicate matter it isn´t easily achieved. When it is there, it is heart wrenching.

My Blüthner model 6 is definitely not lacking in the bass. When playing Bach, for example, the bass is like deep resounding church bells. I think the Blüthner is especially good for all repertoire up to Brahms. Fot the impressionists the Blüthner is also excellent.

I completely understand Arthur Rubinstein´s reaction to a Blüthner he played:

"After my coffee and cigar we went to one of the recording rooms where they had a Blüthner piano. It was not a concert grand, and when I objected to playing it, Gaisberg said, 'Try it and we will see.'

Well, this Blüthner had the most beautiful singing tone I had ever found. I became quite enthusiastic and decided to play my beloved Barcarolle of Chopin. The piano inspired me. I don't think I ever played better in my life.” Arthur Rubinstein
_________________________
“There are only two important things which I took with me on my way to America, It´s been my wife Natalja and my precious Blüthner.” – Sergei Rachmaninov

1913 Blüthner model 6
1929 Blüthner model 9.
1955 Steingraeber upright.

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#207355 - 11/08/05 02:43 AM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20744
Loc: Oakland
It is common for pianos to have a drastic drop-off of tension near the break, and Steinway is not the worst offender.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#207356 - 11/08/05 07:34 AM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
andrewp Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 494
Loc: united kingdom
Originally posted by Swingal
 Quote:
I recently played a brand new Bluthner Upright belonging to a friend. It really shocked me by the dullness of the sound, not to mention the too stiff action.
A Bluthner upright is one of the instruments I have thought I can realistically aspire to a few years down the line. Does anyone else have a view on their qualities?

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#207357 - 11/08/05 11:24 AM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
hockeyguy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/05
Posts: 133
Loc: toledo oh
I think Bluthners and Bosendorfers are the 2 pianos in an almost exclusive category--soft, sensuous, as opposed to the others that are more powerful with greater projection.
I believe the customer who desires this in a new piano will almost choose one of these two.

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#207358 - 11/08/05 03:04 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
Keith D Kerman Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 3249
Loc: Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
 Quote:
Originally posted by swingal:
I recently played a brand new Bluthner Upright belonging to a friend. It really shocked me by the dullness of the sound, not to mention the too stiff action. It had not been played much but I was very un-impressed. I therefore felt rather smug about my new Pleyel 131 which is better than some small grands.IMO

It is of course the fact that the Pleyel height 131 cms would be just under 53" to be added on to the keys and all that are part of the Grand action out beyond the pin board. A total probably not far under 6'.

I would think the Bluthner has a rather limited appeal or dedicated musical style,

Alan [/b]
You have a right to feel good about your Pleyel upright, it is a lovely instrument.
As for the Bluthner upright you played, I would guess that it is in bad regulation, and poorly voiced, if your assesment is accurate. I have never encountered a modern Bluthner upright with an overly heavy action, or with a dull tone, unless the hammers were over voiced and killed.

Was this the Bluthner model B upright?
_________________________
Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales of vintage and pre-owned Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Charles R. Walter, Brodmann, Feurich
www.pianocraft.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel/videos

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460

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#207359 - 11/12/05 07:02 PM Re: Blüthner : Model 2 or Model 4 ??
serge1paris Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 163
Loc: Paris
Bluthner France is going to receive a Model 2 next week.

I am very impatient to play it.

Any comment regarding the differences between Model 4 and Model 2 ???

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