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Norbert, I absolutely adore you!

However, you are evading again. You know very well that is not how an informed buyer buys anything. When Chateau Haut Brion has a bad vintage, not many people show up at their auction because the wine tastes bad. The ones who do show up in a bad year don't care about quality, or don't know how to tell. The latter can easily be duped by, well, so many things.

As professionals with a sense of ethics, isn't it our job to educate the buyer so they actually know what they're getting? Now if they don't want to really know, then it's no longer our problem. But if we don't tell the ignorant in the first place, then it is.

I await, with breathless anticipation, your thoughts....

Cheers!

From my experience,

I've played a few Hoffmanns. They're not bad at all. They certainly don't compare to a good Bechstein, but they're much better than say a Boston, IMHO. I realize that they (Boston and Hoffmann) are very different instruments, but just a point of comparison for tier two brands.

I like the RXs much better than the Boston piano. I think the RX is just a far superior sounding and playing instrument.

I've played a few Vogel grands. I didn't really care for them, but then again, I don't really like Schimmels.

I've never even seen an Irmler.

Laguna Greg, thank you for your comments, it's nice to know people appreciate some of the things I'm doing!

To both Norbert and Laguna Greg, on the subject of 'for the money', what I meant was, the Brodmann (and others) are good in their price range, but obviously a top tier piano blows them out of the water in terms of performance and quality. However, it's good for those of us that can't afford top tier pianos, that there are realistic alternatives that still allow one to function in the profession. This hasn't always been the case, and with the price of Yamaha and Kawai rising, and with the recession knocking in to teaching fees, concert fees etc, it's a big helping hand that we are getting from the makes that cost a lot less.

Yes, I purchased the Brodmann because of the funds I had, but also, I believed - and still believe - it was the best I could get for that money. I couldn't have afforded a Yamaha at the time I bought it, yet I needed a new piano. Owning the Brodmann has meant that I'm able to put funds aside and think longer term about my next instrument, because it's of a quality that allows me to wait a while before taking another plunge. My next instrument, of course, will be purchased based on a price-quality ratio. I don't have the means to spend tens of thousands on an instrument in one go. I simply don't have the purchase power to walk into Steinway Hall and buy a model B, or a Fazioli from Samuels, or a new Bluthner model 6 or whatever. Actually my preference in tone is for the Bluthner piano, especially in a domestic studio situation.

The other thing that I might add is that each piano should be taken on it's own merits. It is, of course, possible to make sweeping statements about brands (I just did saying my personal preference), but there are some exceptions. I've played some pretty poorly set up Bluthners in my time and they've been horrible. I've played some exceptionally well set up Bostons and they've been wonderful, and vice versa. That, however, is to do with the technician. I've also played pianos from exceptional makers that have been set up exceptionally well, and yet they just didn't speak to me, yet another of the same make and model, set up by the same technician, did! It's actually quite difficult to walk into a piano shop, and try a piano for half an hour, and form an opinion of it - of course there are certain things that are obvious, but lets say you have three Bechstein model Bs, next to each other in the showroom. You play all three, sometimes it can be very difficult to find what one piano can give you, that the other can't. It becomes even more complex when you start comparing Bechstein to Bluthner to Steinway.

Yamaha and Kawai are a little more obvious, a little more consistent, and to a greater or lesser extent, usually how they sound is how they sound. How they feel is how they feel. There are subtle differences between two C3 Yamahas for instance, but you can go from one C3 to another without having to make too many adjustments to balance from a pianists point of view. It's not quite the same with the high end manufacturers. I'm not sure why that is. Also, I'm not saying this consistency is a bad thing, in fact it can be very comforting, a reassurance if you like. Also, Yamaha and Kawai are great pianos, I wouldn't dare knock them. I might never have played a C3 that really inspired, but I've never played a bad one. The hand build concert grands are a different matter. They can be very inspiring indeed.

Laguna, I'll not give my plans away completely.... but there might already be some clues given away in my former posts....

Besides I might change my mind. I might say I want to buy a Boston and end up buying a Vogel.... (I'm not actually looking at either of them haha!)

I'm no expert pianist, and have limited exposure to them, but the W. Hoffmann, to me, is no also ran.



Yes, the German manufacturers are just full grown versions of Santa's elves! Really, Rich, are you that naive?

If I may, Plowboy, we're talking about the piano industry here. We're not talking about a multi-million pound industry with huge profits. The german manufacturers have all really struggled through some difficult times and managed to stay afloat.

In my experience these people want to get the right instrument to the right people. Yes, it's a business, yes they have to make money. I have to make money too. People tend to work in the piano industry out of a love of music or craftsmanship.

The reason that Bechstein have Hoffman, and Bluthner have Haessler and Irmler, is because they want to find ways to get a good quality instrument to those who can't buy the top tier instrument. This is mutually beneficial to the customer and to the firm - the firm sell an instrument, thus they are able to keep things ticking over, and those of us who can't quite afford top tier are provided with a piano that will function and sound good, even if it's not the one we really want.

Since Rich is selling a house brand of pianos that he brought out for exactly the reason I've stated above, I trust him when he says that the heart of their decision was the desire to provide a better piano to the consumer market.

Now, personally I would like to see more Schimmels, Bechsteins, Bluthners, Grotrians, Steingraebers on the concert platforms of major venues, and perhaps by providing instruments that music students have a chance of affording, these makers will develop a brand loyalty and it will mean that in years to come the next generation will request one of their instruments on the concert platform. Bechstein recently supplied a piano to the Wigmore Hall for a performance, so it seems to be working.

Meanwhile, Almaviva (remember him? - he's the OP), is checking out a Mason & Hamlin.

I really don't know why it would be so great to hear different brands of pianos on the concert stage. Since I've played most of them I already know what they sound like and anyone with the desire can go find out for themselves. Now since Joe likes a good Bluthner best I suppose it would be best for him to play one in his concerts but I'm afraid that if he wants to make sure he gets a good one he probably needs to supply his own. I wish him enough success to do so.

Sometimes it can lead to unexpected results.

"The first half of the program, though, was dedicated to a crude and painfully heavy-handed account of Beethoven's "Emperor" Concerto, with pianist Garrick Ohlsson using a Fazioli grand piano to pummel the music into submission.

This 10-foot juggernaut is the anabolic steroid of the piano world. It produces lots of extra muscle that seems to make pianists excited, but it turns Ohlsson's playing, at least, into something freakish -- the loud passages excruciatingly loud, the softer passages metallic and menacing.

When Ohlsson introduced this nasty machine a year ago, in a dreadful performance of the Brahms Second Concerto with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, I assumed it was simply a one-time experiment. But if he has in fact become a convert, the news is dire. Those of us who have loved and admired his artistry over the years can only hope for an intervention."


San Francisco Chronicle Review

Of course, anything is possible in one particular performance or for one particular piano. But there are so many great YouTube recordings on Faziolis and great pianists who play them that to make a generalization the way that reviewer did seems completely ludicrous. As if he has some ax to grind.

It was Ohlsson, not Axe.

LOL, Marty.

Hi Joe. You're very welcome!



That has also been my experience. One of the best things about those two makers is their consistency. You know pretty much what you're going to get when you sit down at one. You don't usually feel like you've played on the best piano you've ever played when you play a "C", for example. But they're not bad, very serviceable, and can be made to do a number of things. It will also hold a tune well, and put up with a lot of abuse in an institutional setting, which is good!

The best experience I ever had with the "C"s was when I was in graduate school. I was getting private coachings on the Schubert lieder cycles from Allen Smith, the head of the accompanying department at USC. And he had two C7s in his studio that were amazing! He somehow got his department to budget major work on these two pianos, so he got his favorite tech to voice the heck out of them and change a bunch of stuff, including monkeying with the geometry of the scale design, and other, expensive things I don't even understand. They still sounded like Japanese instruments, but they were incredibly responsive with a truly lovely, lush sound, and the most amazing colors in the decay, many more than you'd ever hear from a Yamaha off the showroom floor. Whatever sound you wanted, you could just wish that note into being.

Now if I could just raise the money...



I really think it's the amount of handwork that goes into them that not only makes them at the top end a bit less consistent, but also allows the most wonderful aspects to come out in their best ones.

My two cents.
Last year, at the Musikmesse Frankfurt, I tried out lots of pianos; from Pearl River to Fazioli. The "Chinese" piano I liked best was a Steinberg P. So I assumed that when the final quality check is in Europe (as it is the case for piano brands like Hoffmann or Steinberg; built in China but final check in Europe), then the piano will be better than a piano tested in China. I was not impressed at all with Pearl River/Ritmuller, or Schumann.

Silly me.

This year I went to the Musikmesse again, and Feurich/Hailun had a common stand. I tried out both, and couldn't find a significant difference between the pianos that had "Feurich" on their fallboard, and those that had "Hailun". They were both not overly bad for Chinese instruments; but they don't have Japanese quality yet.

So: I guess that the name written on the board will not make a big difference as to how a new piano feels and sounds. I believe it's possible to like the sound and feel of a Pearl River better than of a Steinberg P or Hoffmann Vision.

The real test is: How well does a piano hold up? I have my doubts as to Chinese pianos (regardless of the name on the fallboard). If they are made from cheap parts, then they will deteriorate faster than pianos made out of high quality European or Japanese components.

This is probably true for Yamaha and Kawai as well; their GB (Yamaha) or GM (Kawai) grands are built in Indonesia, as far as I know. Maybe people who own them can tell about their experiences. I'm guessing that the quality difference between a Yamaha C and a Yamaha GB is the same as between a Bechstein Academy and a Hoffmann Vision.

I'll list my personal experience for models that are close to the ones you mention above. Note that most of the time, only one of each was available, so of course, this doesn't at all represent what an entire line is worth.

Boston 5' 4" - very ordinary for the (IMHO too high) price.

Pramberger Signature 5' 7" - one grade lower than the Platinum you mention, but I liked its clear tone and decent response.

May Berlin - Very surprising for a consumer-grade piano. Excellent keyboard response and OK overall sound.

This simply to tell that grade categories can overlap depending on prep and individual piano.