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#2073731 - 04/29/13 07:17 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Norbert]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5372
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
That said I have taken quite a few 1970's dog B's and re-capped bridges, replaced pin-blocks, replaced agraffes, and replaced most of the action and damper system and they come out great.


Steinway B's can be "dogs" in only about 40 years?
The work described befits a piano 80-100 years old...

It was the era (and the condition of the factory at the time) in which they were built, Norbert. Steinway pianos from that era typically had numerous quality control, materials and detailing problems. They came from the factory needing a great deal of work to make them into credible instruments. The only way to adequately fix those problems was/is to essentially rebuild them.

It is a problem that has afflicted other manufacturers as well.

Consider one of your own favorites: Estonia. Today Estonia pianos are excellent instruments by most any standard but just a couple of decades back they too came from their factory in pretty rough condition. After examining an Estonia concert grand at a NAMM show some years back I remember commenting to a colleague that, properly rebuilt it might make an excellent piano. A couple of years later I got the opportunity to do just that and confirmed that, as crudely built as those pianos were back then, they could still be remanufactured to perform to a very high standard.

Thankfully both of these examples -- Steinway and Estonia -- have gone on to better times.

ddf
_________________________
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Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

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#2079745 - 05/09/13 09:26 AM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Mountain man Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/23/13
Posts: 5
Ok guys, wow! Quite a wealth of information! Due to the general response to my first post, I did keep looking. I became interested in a piano Sonny (sonnyspianotv.com) had due to CC2's post. It was a whirlwind experience. This piano is a 1981 B that sat in some rich persons house. Yes, again, with Teflon bushings. Sonny, bless his heart, was convinced that this piano was in excellent condition and that this particular piano had zero problems. I do not doubt his sincerity. We were in conversation through emails and he got another buyer so I flew to Long Island from S. America and flew my uncle in from Ohio to see it. Yes, it is beautiful but as soon as I pressed a key down I was very disappointed. The Teflon bushing problem is not a myth, this piano plays like a truck. So, what did I do? I bought it of course. I know, I know, I know. The thing is that the piano sounded, from top to bottom, amazing. Way better than any of the pianos in the shop, including the other Bs. My uncle is going to replace the entire action with new Teflon free Steinway parts for the cost of the parts, I do have that advantage. According to my uncle, who looked over the piano thouroghly, this piano has the potential, possibly, to be something special. So, if he works on it and it doesn't turn out, which he doubts, I guess we will have to sell it for what we have into it and start over! Feel free to criticize my decision here, I am we'll aware that I am not known for being a smart buyer but I did have professional help! Thank you all again for all your thoughts and I look forward to hearing your responses, good or bad, on this as well. Once it is all fixed up, I will post some links of me playing it, Cheers!


Edited by Mountain man (05/09/13 09:47 AM)
_________________________
Mountain Man (because I live on the side of a mountain)

Otto Meister upright
Rhodes Stage Piano '65
Yamaha P-95

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#2079804 - 05/09/13 11:33 AM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Norbert]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2713
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Norbert;
Well they sounded better than most of the new piano competition when prepped well, but they didn't sound or play as well as the older well-preseved and maintained versions. That is some of what drove the expansion of the piano rebuilding business.

As for your surprise that much work is needed, I am a bit of a special case: because I understand so much of how all the elements of a pianos structure intersect to produce tone and touch-I can make rebuilds that no new piano can match. That is why I sell only my rebuilds of select makers and select designs. There are many little details in pianos that the OEM specifications for are not ideal, and the only way to fix that is put the thing together myself. Piano manufacturers do not listen very well even when you show them what to do with a piano they can play and hear. They just go back to their old buzzy, dead (or harsh)-treble, ugly small piano bass, and slow playing/wear-out quick actions.
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#2079823 - 05/09/13 12:30 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I can make rebuilds that no new piano can match.

My sympathies to Mr. Steingraeber, Mr. Walter, Mr. Laul, Mr. Sauter, et al.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2079831 - 05/09/13 12:52 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1346
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Mountain man
a 1981 B . Yes, it is beautiful but as soon as I pressed a key down I was very disappointed. The Teflon bushing problem is not a myth, this piano plays like a truck. My uncle is going to replace the entire action with new Teflon free Steinway parts for the cost of the parts, I do have that advantage. According to my uncle, who looked over the piano thouroghly, this piano has the potential, possibly, to be something special.


Greetings,
I snipped the parts I thought pertinent. The Teflon bushings are not the reason it plays like a truck. This is the action geometry, usually coupled with hammers that are too heavy. Properly set up, the larger Teflon bushings are wonderful.
I think it is a poor decision to use the Steinway parts when the WNG parts will out perform them in every aspect, (except being called "original").

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#2079844 - 05/09/13 01:26 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
joe80 Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1712
Ed, (McMorrow)

I have played many new Hamburg Steinway Bs that have really not been up to the mark and have sounded like everything needed re-set in them. There was no song in them, if you know what I mean - they often sound like they're being strangled.

It's a shame because when they're set up, Steinways have a really good action - one of the best in fact, but the sound sometimes leaves me uninspired.

The model B is my least favourite in the Steinway line-up (I'll get slain for this I know), and I prefer the A and the D. The C can be nice too, but the B just doesn't move me. It's OK it's just my opinion as a pianist, but I'd have a Yamaha C6 over a Steinway B.

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#2079848 - 05/09/13 01:43 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: joe80]
TomazP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 109
Loc: Ucluelet, BC Canada
My Hamburg Steinway B was built in 1966. It is glorious.

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#2079850 - 05/09/13 01:51 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
joe80 Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1712
Is it original or rebuilt? Some are good, and the good ones are excellent, but some are just plain noisy.

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#2079891 - 05/09/13 03:22 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Minnesota Marty]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1505
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I can make rebuilds that no new piano can match.


My sympathies to Mr. Steingraeber, Mr. Walter, Mr. Laul, Mr. Sauter, et al.


Hi Marty,

Ed's not kidding or exaggerating. I visited his shop yesterday, and the newer "B" he's got all tricked out there sounds like a Steinway is supposed to sound, really something unusual. I only wish the newer, "improved" instruments sounded or felt anything like this. They don't.

And I'm don't even really like the Steinway sound!
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2079922 - 05/09/13 04:38 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: laguna_greg]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I can make rebuilds that no new piano can match.


My sympathies to Mr. Steingraeber, Mr. Walter, Mr. Laul, Mr. Sauter, et al.


Hi Marty,

Ed's not kidding or exaggerating. I visited his shop yesterday, and the newer "B" he's got all tricked out there sounds like a Steinway is supposed to sound, really something unusual. I only wish the newer, "improved" instruments sounded or felt anything like this. They don't.

And I'm don't even really like the Steinway sound!

I am quite sure that Mr. McMorrow would never "kid" about the self-assessment of his skills. He frequently informs us of his singular stature.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2079939 - 05/09/13 05:20 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: laguna_greg]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3435
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I can make rebuilds that no new piano can match.


My sympathies to Mr. Steingraeber, Mr. Walter, Mr. Laul, Mr. Sauter, et al.


Hi Marty,

Ed's not kidding or exaggerating. I visited his shop yesterday, and the newer "B" he's got all tricked out there sounds like a Steinway is supposed to sound, really something unusual. I only wish the newer, "improved" instruments sounded or felt anything like this. They don't.

And I'm don't even really like the Steinway sound!


While I don't always agree with what Ed says, his work does speak for itself. They are high-quality rebuilds, to be sure!
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#2079956 - 05/09/13 05:50 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Better than what is produced by the builders I mentioned?

I'm not swayed by blanket statements. There are other fine re-builders who produce exceptional products, but you need to have an instrument to start with.

I would like to hear the proof of his claim in competition with the world's greatest pianos. Maybe Mr. McMorrow could set a new standard if he built pianos.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2079991 - 05/09/13 07:11 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Ed Foote]
Mountain man Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/23/13
Posts: 5
Ed, with all due respect, it is not my opinion that the problem is the Teflon bushings, it was my uncle's. All I can tell you is that he pulled the action out, unscrewed a few of the hammer/shank/hammer butt assemblies and watched them swing in his hand (or not swing as was the case). That doesn't mean I disagree with you, I don't know squat, but that is what he did and he drew his conclusions from that test. As you know, the hammer butt and shank are joined with said Teflon bushing and there was no freedom of motion when he let the hammer drop. He did mention other problems with the setup but did not go into detail since he wants to put in new parts, not refurbishing the old.

Please tell me about these WNG parts. If I wanted it original, I'd leave the Teflon parts, I just want the best possible piano I can afford. I haven't bought the Steinway parts yet so it is not to late to consider other options. I am a pianist, not a technician, so I don't pretend to know what's best for this instrument. I just know that right now, the piano is not fun to play but I believe it could be. Thanks for the input!
_________________________
Mountain Man (because I live on the side of a mountain)

Otto Meister upright
Rhodes Stage Piano '65
Yamaha P-95

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#2079994 - 05/09/13 07:23 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Mountain man Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/23/13
Posts: 5
Ahhhh, sorry, I do know what those are. The action made of composite material, right? Do people across the board feel good about those now, or is that more of a personal preference? I'm open to them but I've never played a piano with that action yet. Cheers,
_________________________
Mountain Man (because I live on the side of a mountain)

Otto Meister upright
Rhodes Stage Piano '65
Yamaha P-95

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#2079999 - 05/09/13 07:37 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Wessell, Nickel & Gross is an established action manufacturer and held in high regard. Recently they have introduced composite actions which are now used in Mason & Hamlin pianos. They are similar to the actions developed by Kawai. They are now proven and are the choice of many fine rebuilders.

http://consumer.wessellnickelandgross.com/

I am considering the rebuild of one of my Steinways and am giving strong consideration to using the WNG action. They are exceptional and more stable in regulation than many others. Technicians have high praise for them.

Hope this helps.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2080054 - 05/09/13 10:21 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2713
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
The W,N&G parts I use are the hammer-shank and flange, capstan, and backcheck. The smaller shank diameter makes it much easier to taper the sides of the hammer which helps open the tone and increase action response. I don't like the other W,N&G parts enough to use them, however I am sure they would produce excellent results in the hands of a skilled rebuilder.

I dislike the stainless bridge pins and strongly urge everyone to not put them in a piano. The American standard copper plated mild steel pins sound better. I have done the A to B comparison.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2080055 - 05/09/13 10:22 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: joe80]
TomazP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 109
Loc: Ucluelet, BC Canada
My 1966 Hamburg B had the bass strings replaced 15 years ago. Other than that it is original. It has, however, been meticulously serviced and maintained by a marvellous technician.

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#2080056 - 05/09/13 10:26 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Minnesota Marty]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6682
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Wessell, Nickel & Gross is a very established action manufacturer and held in high regard. Recently they have introduced composite actions which are now used in Mason & Hamlin pianos.

http://consumer.wessellnickelandgross.com/


Here's a "history" of WNG that I found on the internet.

"In 1874, Wessell, Nickel & Gross was founded by three experienced manufacturers of piano actions, namely Otto Wessell, Adam Nickel and Rudolph Gross.

Very quickly, the company acquired the reputation of selling a superior product.

At that time, WNG supplied many well-known piano manufacturers, such as Mason & Hamlin, Julius Bauer, Gabler... In subsequent years, the company grew steadily. WNG was renowned worldwide for its products of superior quality.

During the Depression, WNG got into financial problems, resulting in the takeover of the company by the Aeolian Piano Corporation. As of that moment, the WNG products were only used in the production of Aeolian. As a result, there were no further deliveries to other piano manufacturers.
Unfortunately, after the takeover by the Aeolian Piano Corporation, the quality of the WNG products suffered.

As of 1953, the name WNG was abandoned until 2005 when the brothers Burgett acquired the brand. The brothers worked hard to restore the original ideals, innovation and quality for which the initial founders of WNG were renowned.They therefore hope their efforts will ensure that the name WNG will regain its worldwide status of superior quality products.

Today, WNG stands for durable piano components, which are less susceptible to wear and tear due to the composite materials they are made of, such as carbon and nylon, amongst others. Furthermore, these materials prove more resistant to extreme conditions, such as high humidity for instance.
In parallel, the Burgett brothers supplemented the assortment with tools specifically designed to complement the WNG mechanical parts. Here again, they upheld the same ideals of quality, durability and innovation."

Per the above description, I was under the impression that WNG had been defunct for many years and that the Burgett brothers acquired the WNG name in 2005 and have been applying it to the new composite actions used in M&H pianos. Is WNG a separate company from M&H (as the website would imply) or is it part of M&H (as per my understanding)???????



Edited by carey (05/09/13 10:26 PM)
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#2080076 - 05/09/13 11:25 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1346
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
The composite parts from WNG are, in my opinion, are vastly superior to wooden parts for several reasons. The first is consistency, there is no way to machine wood to the tolerances or consistency of glass reinforced, injection molded, nylon. The second is the resistance to humidity changes, so the traveling and spacing stay where you put them. The third is the hard bushings allow a very low friction while maintaining control of the swing that a felt bushing cannot approach.
The hammer shanks all behave the same, which wood will never do, and the backcheck system allows a set backcheck distance to remain the same, regardless of the force of the blow. That the geometry, in terms of knuckle and capstan pads, can be varied so much is an added bonus for those of us that like to obviate factory variability. The capstans, with their virtually frictionless, non-oxidizing coating and lighter weight all contribute to durability and response.
I am a traditional-minded person, and I was taught by others that were like minded, (Bill Garlick and David Betts), but they always encouraged us to try everything before we made up our minds on something. I have tried wooden parts for 33 years, and have seen their shortcomings. I have been putting the WNG parts in ultra heavy use pianos and there is NO comparison. There has been some talk about the sound of the carbon fiber shanks being different, but any difference is so much less than the range of response from various hammers that I consider that to be of no measurable consequence.
WNG parts give the tech the choice between tradition and performance, and since 90% of my customers are professional pianists, I will take performance every time.
I am not employed by WNG, nor do I get a discount on parts. I am just overjoyed that the work of alignment is no longer so perishable as it was with wood, and that my regulations are so much more durable.
Regards,


Edited by Ed Foote (05/09/13 11:27 PM)

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#2080125 - 05/10/13 02:38 AM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
joe80 Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1712
I quite believe Ed McMorrow is able to produce a better result than a new manufacture piano, because he will have more time per instrument to make sure everything is set properly. The rebuilding workshops tend to offer more customization than new builds. Consider that it costs about as much to rebuild as it does to buy a complete kawai rx2 or 3, and the work is going in at the finishing stages of the piano - the rim and frame are already there.

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#2080255 - 05/10/13 10:14 AM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: joe80]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2713
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Yes, workmanship is at least 50% of the improvement. For example when re-capping bridges I go over the pattern of string lengths and spacing to optimize treble lengths and eliminate spacing conflicts between front and back bridge pins.

That said though: chamfering agraffes, V-profiling the capo bar, and installing; Patent Pending Fully Tempered Duplex Scale, hybrid wire scale, LightHammer tone regulation, and teflon heat-shrink tubing on front rail pins all contribute significantly to the musical utility and durability of my rebuilt pianos. No new pianos have these features or equal durability. Every one of my pianos is musically useable from note 1 to 88 and none of them have a nasal tone and very few have any notes with obvious longitudinal mode issues.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2080280 - 05/10/13 11:14 AM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Mr. McMorrow,

Have you considered taking out a paid ad at Piano World, rather than using this forum to peddle your products and skills?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2080317 - 05/10/13 12:32 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Minnesota Marty]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3435
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Mr. McMorrow,

Have you considered taking out a paid ad at Piano World, rather than using this forum to peddle your products and skills?


He's doing nothing that none of the other rebuilders or piano dealers on here do from time to time. Perhaps some may think he's being overly boastful, but he is highly accomplished and deserves to be taken seriously.
_________________________
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#2080320 - 05/10/13 12:40 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8599
Loc: Georgia, USA
Speaking as a moderator here…

Self promotion on Piano World… Hey, we’ve all done it in some form or fashion, whether deliberately or inadvertently.

In regards to Ed McMorrow’s comments in this thread, while they do seem somewhat like advertisement on the surface, which Ed has been guilty of in the past, I don’t see his comments as blatant advertising, albeit close.

Ed, if you would, please tone down the self promotion a bit… I’m sure you are a good rebuilder.

And, I think Marty’s suggestion that you consider buying a PW ad from Frank Baxter is a good idea. thumb

Rickster
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2080493 - 05/10/13 07:40 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Minnesota Marty]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1505
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
My sympathies to Mr. Steingraeber, Mr. Walter, Mr. Laul, Mr. Sauter, et al.


Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

I am quite sure that Mr. McMorrow would never "kid" about the self-assessment of his skills. He frequently informs us of his singular stature.


Hi Marty,

I didn't realize this was an ongoing "thing". So please let me lend some more perspective. Since Ed McMorrow can't say anything more, I feel obligated to.

Since you (or hardly anybody on this thread) haven't played any of Ed's pianos, the skepticism and even criticism being heaped on him is rather unfair. Now, I'm certain Ed has no problems saying how good his instruments or his skills actually are, and that can be very grating. I can understand that. After all, the proof of the pudding, etc., right?

So just how good was the eating here? Well, Ed's "dog B" actually sounded like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRgHM8Ax1PQ&list=FLuicr1wggQsQ5Yjl_ro0zmg&index=5

To be clear, this is not Ed's B. Rather, it's the perfect example of a good demo recordings for a rebuilt instrument, an 1899 D from a rebuilder in New York. The reason I like it is because this is what people expect an American Steinway to sound like, with that dark, growling bass, huge dynamic range, bell-like singing treble all the way to the top, and a gorgeous, warm tenor register. Not only does the pianist give an excellent performance of an extremely difficult Rachmaninoff etude, she and the piece really show off what the instrument can do. And the instrument proves itself to be exceptional.

In basic timbre and dynamic response, Ed's B matched this rebuilt 1899 "D" exceptionally closely. Oh, I'm sure that D is capable of a bigger sound, but in the characteristic tone color and those wonderful, singing colors in the treble, the especially interesting and beautiful decay there, it was almost an exact match. Not to mention that there was a comparatively long sustain and pitch clarity all the way up to and including the very top note. The action was wonderfully responsive. Trills and repeated notes come out very easily and consistently, dynamic colors were very easy to control. Projection was amazing in every register. Resonance overall was exceptional. It was more Steinway than Steinway, and you can't say that hardly ever about modern instruments.

Which is a problem that I'm sure we can all agree on. Modern, post-WWII Steinways don't sound much like this anymore unless they come from Hamburg, and not all of those are equally wonderful as Joe has pointed out. The Bs from the CBS days are consistently awful, and almost universally acknowledged as such by the people who have to play on them. Very few technicians can rebuild them into something useable.

Which is why I was so impressed with Ed's B. Brand new, that piano never sounded as good as it does now. If we had gone over to the Steinway franchise showroom in Seattle right after, we couldn't have found an instrument on their showroom floor that would have sounded as good, or even matched the stereotypical qualities well.

So Marty, all I'm really saying is try not to sling any mud until you've played the piano. After that, sling all you want.

Just to be clear: I only met Ed for the first time two days ago. He is not paying me to shill for him. We have no professional relationship, other than that I hope I can raise the money to get him to do his tricks on my M&H.

What I played on the instrument: snippets from the Beethoven 4th concerto, Mozart K. 330, Bach fugue in c minor, various Liszt things, Chopin Berceuse, and Schumann Kinderszenen, about 35 minutes.

If I ever go back to Ed's shop, and he says it's OK, I'll make a recording so you can ll hear what I'm talking about.


Edited by laguna_greg (05/10/13 08:33 PM)
Edit Reason: clarifying something more
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2080497 - 05/10/13 08:01 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: laguna_greg]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19928
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg

I didn't realize this was an ongoing "thing". So please let me lend some more perspective. Since Ed can't say anything more, I feel obligated to.

Since you (or hardly anybody on this thread) haven't played any of Ed's pianos, the skepticism and even criticism being heaped on him is rather unfair. Now, I'm certain Ed has no problems saying how good his instruments or his skills actually are, and that can be very grating. I can understand that. After all, the proof of the pudding, etc., right?
I think you're totally missing the point.

The problem or question is not how good his pianos are or are not. It's the fact that on this thread and many, many others he has lauded his own pianos and posted as if he is the greatest and most knowledgeable rebuilder in history and that others are deficient. Even if he is the best rebuilder on the planet, these posts strike me as arrogant, and I have felt this way for a long but not written anything about it thus far. Most people who are incredibly good at something don't have to constantly brag about it.


Edited by pianoloverus (05/10/13 08:03 PM)

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#2080505 - 05/10/13 08:29 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: pianoloverus]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1505
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think you're totally missing the point.

Even if he is the best rebuilder on the planet, these posts strike me as arrogant, and I have felt this way for a long but not written anything about it thus far.


You think I don't know that?

Feel free to dislike him all you want. You have my permission to do so, and everybody else's I'm sure. I never said you had to kiss him!

But until you've played his pianos, your musical and technical criticisms are worthless. None of us are interested in what you think about him personally.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2080508 - 05/10/13 08:40 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: laguna_greg]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19928
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think you're totally missing the point.

Even if he is the best rebuilder on the planet, these posts strike me as arrogant, and I have felt this way for a long but not written anything about it thus far.


You think I don't know that?

Feel free to dislike him all you want. You have my permission to do so, and everybody else's I'm sure. I never said you had to kiss him!

But until you've played his pianos, your musical and technical criticisms are worthless. None of us are interested in what you think about him personally.
I made no musical or technical criticisms of him.

You may think my personal criticism of him is of no interest but the moderator and Marty have already said, before I made my post, basically the same thing I did. You also left out in your quote my mention of his continual self lauding/promotion together with his criticism of others...the very reasons for my description of his posts as arrogant.


Edited by pianoloverus (05/10/13 08:48 PM)

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#2080512 - 05/10/13 08:47 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: pianoloverus]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3435
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Even if he is the best rebuilder on the planet, these posts strike me as arrogant, and I have felt this way for a long but not written anything about it thus far. Most people who are incredibly good at something don't have to constantly brag about it.


Perhaps, but it's a small price to pay for the knowledge he has. Personally, I find the etiquette police far more annoying. Seriously, if people have a problem with someone, perhaps that should be dealt with PMs from now on. Making a big deal about this just makes it worse.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2080514 - 05/10/13 08:50 PM Re: Advice on a Steinway B [Re: Mountain man]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
L. Greg,

Thank you, but I don't need a lesson on how a Steinway sounds, or should sound. Your lesson doesn't even need to be shared about most of the brands of instruments available, as I play them often.

I totally agree with Pianoloverus, it is the arrogance of Mr. McMorrow which I find distasteful. There are many rebuilders who post here, or are not even members, who are of equal skill and ability. Some would be considered to be even more masterful.

Here is my comment which triggered all of this.

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I can make rebuilds that no new piano can match.

My sympathies to Mr. Steingraeber, Mr. Walter, Mr. Laul, Mr. Sauter, et al.

Have you played the instruments I used as reference? Many in this forum, including me, would take issue with such a blanket statement.

How would you rate the single rebuild by Mr. McMorrow in comparison to Steingraebers, Walters, Estonias, and Sauters? Do you think that they build instruments of lesser quality?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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