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#2075763 - 05/02/13 10:10 AM Re: 25 yo taking up piano. Need a good teacher [Re: mattmorgan44]
Sand Tiger Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 1059
Loc: Southern California
Hi MattMorgan44,

There are many activities that a person can do away from the piano. I took a free music appreciation course:

http://oyc.yale.edu/music/musi-112

There are free YouTube videos, and paid recordings to listen to. Free and paid sheet music to look over and perhaps study. There are books to read.

I can say that two hours a day was too much for me in the beginning because I came to piano with repetitive stress problems. Two hours a day made it much worse, and I had to take a break. There are some other forum beginners that have thrown themselves into piano with many hours a day (four, six, eight, more?), and some have done well.

The other comments about taking care of the body, with proper diet, exercise, sleep, down time, other activities are also important. Some do okay with piano immersion, but some get injured, some burn out quickly. Take breaks. Most like to do 20 minute to 30 minute segments. Listen to the body, if the hands, wrists, shoulders, neck complain, take a break. If the problems persist take a few days off.
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#2077049 - 05/04/13 08:33 AM Re: 25 yo taking up piano. Need a good teacher [Re: Sand Tiger]
mattmorgan44 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 78
Sand Tiger,

Thank you so much for this advice.

I will DEFINITELY look at the yale music appreciation course!

I have been watching a lot of youtube and have downloaded and even paid for a few pieces of sheet music to try out.

Thanks for commenting on the number of hours spent at the piano. I have started a new thread in relation to this. I am happy to hear that some people have done many hours per day successfully, but I am much more aware now that I need to be careful wink and segments is a good idea.

Thanks for all the advice, Matt
_________________________
Roland RD700NX | Roland HP-507

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#2077269 - 05/04/13 04:59 PM Re: 25 yo taking up piano. Need a good teacher [Re: mattmorgan44]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 243
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: mattmorgan44
Also, thanks to this forum I purchased a Roland RD700NX to practice on. An acoustic piano was not practical for where I am living. But I (nearly completely) love the RD (I think I will start a new thread some time to try fix that "nearly completely"). So thanks for those recommendations on the Roland smile

Thanks, Matt


Out of interest how did you decide on the RD700NX? I'm also just starting out and am in a similar position where an acoustic would be impractical so am looking for a suitable digital to learn on. How's that model working out for you and what are teachers usually like when it comes to teaching someone on a digital?

I also started the violin last year and when selecting a teacher decided I would try out a few before deciding who to commit to. I found they emphasized different things and picked on different aspects of my playing which I actually benefited from. There were many to pick from in the many directories I found for my area. A google search ought to turn up a list you can research then just have some trial lessons with several.


Edited by Enthusiast (05/04/13 05:00 PM)

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#2077422 - 05/04/13 11:25 PM Re: 25 yo taking up piano. Need a good teacher [Re: Enthusiast]
mattmorgan44 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 78
Hi Enthusiast,

I decided on the RD700NX after reading many posts here and other forums, and watching many, many reviews and demos on youtube. I research my purchases to death lol.

I was considering mainly the RD700 and the Yamaha CP5, but I was also interested in the digital uprights from Roland and Yamaha. Such as the Roland HP-505, HP-507 and LX-15. And Yamahas range of digital uprights (I think the range is called CLP). And I also considered the Yamaha Motif XF-8, the Roland Jupiter and the Kronos.

My main factor to consider while choosing was the action. How realistic the feel of these digital pianos are compared to an acoustic piano. Reason being, I won't need to perform with the instrument for a long time, so the feel of the keybed was much more important than the sound it produced. My thinking was that the closer to an acoustic the action is, the better my technique will be able to develop and become. And that is all I cared about for this purchase.

So in all my research, in all the posts and comparisons between the models, the RD700NX was said to have the closest action to "the real thing". I don't think I heard a single argument to the contrary. And it is very good. I am very happy with it.

I played quite a few instruments - most of the Roland line including the V-Piano and the big V Grand and quite a few acoustic pianos (just to compare). My opinion is that Roland's digital pianos like the RD-700 have a similar feel to some very expensive grand pianos. The cheaper acoustic pianos ($7-25,000) felt VERY different (I didn't like the feel at all but I think I would get used to it when I eventually get an acoustic).

The Motif, Jupiter and Kronos were ruled out because they are workstations and you pay for the incredible features of a workstation. The RD700 and CP-5 are dedicated stage pianos. You don't get nearly as many features but they are designed solely to feel and sound like a grand piano. I didn't get a chance to play the CP-5 but I was content that I would chose the RD700 anyway due to what I have read. I believe the CP-5 has an equally weighted action which for me would probably rule it out alone. I also read that it has shallow key depth, but that is also second hand information.

I suggest you play these instruments for yourself and see what you like the feel of. The Roland keys are heavy. I actually tested them using USA coins as weights (left over from a holiday there). The weight required to depress the keys at all was 53 grams at the top and 62 grams at the bottom. At middle C, 45grams is considered light, ~50 grams is considered normal, and 55grams a bit heavy (according to what I found online - please verify). So according to this scale that I found online my RD700 has heavy to very heavy keys. A lot of people believe learning on slightly heavier keys will make you a better piano player. But many many hours on heavy keys can lead to problems. I am no expert on key weight. These are just things I was curious about and read up on.

Finally, I had a problem getting a sound I really liked out of the RD700NX. I tried so hard for days to adjust settings and even downloaded software pianos (hooking the RD700 up to my laptop and using the computer software to play different piano sounds - sounds recorded from real grand pianos). I tried 3 different quality headphones but nothing worked. It sounded muddy or muted. A bit hard to explain. I went back to the shop and talked about it and jaws dropped- I felt like they were going to shoot me for saying that about the RD700 lol. I had already decided that I wanted to change it for the LX-15 upright. They were very very good about it and were happy to exchange it but wanted to send someone out to look at it first. Well I agreed but I listened to and played the LX-15 and HP-507 (HP-507 is cheaper but still more expensive than the RD700) and I was sold on the HP-507. To my ear and the piano teachers ear, the HP-507 sounded as good as the LX-15. I bought the HP-507 and was to decide whether or not to keep the RD700 after someone came to look at it. Btw, the shop owner said that the HP-507 was a "toy" compared to the RD700. But I absolutely disagree!

The person that came and looked at the RD700 wasn't hearing what I was hearing. He made some very small adjustments but to his ear it was fine so there wasn't much he could do. I kept the RD700 anyway because I got it for a price I could sell it for and not take a loss at all, and I figured it HAS to be able to produce the same sound that the HP-507 makes. Well to this day, with headphones on I still think the standard HP-507 concert grand sound sounds much better than the best sound I can get out of the RD700 so far. But here is the weirdest part. I finally got around to recording myself on the RD700 and playing it on the computer and it sounds AMAZING. As good as I could ever hope for. So the problem lies somewhere in the sound getting to the headphones. Not what the RD700 is actually able to produce. Of course this is only a consideration if you plan to use headphones (which most people looking for a digital piano do). Also, it is quite likely that the problem is just my taste and the sound is perfect to most other people. So don't be discouraged at all until you hear it for yourself. There is a good chance you will love it and it is just me that had trouble with the sound.

My advice to you would be to play as many stage pianos as you can. Take headphones with you. Play for as long as you can on each of your narrowed down choices. If you like the sound of the RD700NX and the price is in budget, I HIGHLY recommend it. If you don't need the portability and have the budget for the HP-507, I recommend that over the RD700. I'm sure many people would disagree with me and prefer the RD700. Also consider that if you plan to play your music to anyone you will need speakers for the RD-700, which can be costly for quality monitors. The HP-507 obviously has them built into the piano (and it mimics an acoustic). So factor that in the cost as well as needing a stand and possibly peddles (if you want all 3 - which makes the sustain peddle really stable as well) for the RD700.

IMO the RD700NX is the best current choice for someone wanting to learn piano on a digital stage piano. It is EXCELLENT. The PHA-III ivory feel keys are superb and the best I have ever felt on any digital piano. The action is equally excellent and was the deciding factor for me. Still check out the HP-507 if you can smile btw, the HP-507 takes up less space than my RD700 because of the stand that was made for the RD700 (but you can get smaller stands).

This is a very long winded post. Sorry about that but I hope it helps you a little smile

Matt

Ps. The only thing I regret, because I ended up spending so much money anyway, was not checking out the Yamaha Avant Grand N series digital pianos. I think they are VERY expensive. But if your budget allows maybe check them out too.

I should also have mentioned the Roland FP-7F. This is another digital piano you should consider. I believe it is very similar to the RD700NX but has a much lower price tag. I think it's exceptionally good value and it is very highly regarded on these forums. It has the same PHA-III ivory feel keys with escapement! and it has an excellent built in stand that makes it a really neat package taking up less floor real estate. With this stand there are no cross bars for your knees and legs to hit - i learned about those stands the hard way. Yu could spend the savings on some seriously good speakers and many other things you may want when you start playing (one example.. the software available for these pianos is incredible) Definitely check out the FP-7F smile FP-7F - Click Here!!


Edited by mattmorgan44 (05/05/13 02:18 AM)
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#2077563 - 05/05/13 09:39 AM Re: 25 yo taking up piano. Need a good teacher [Re: mattmorgan44]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11706
Loc: Canada
Coming into this late, but "as promised" in the video thread. smile

In reading this I see you had a number of interviews with this new teacher that you started with, and you say that the lesson was as if you had not talked at all. I gather that you talked about your goals, which are expressed as wanting to become a serious pianist who will before on some level. What I did NOT see at all was what your new teacher's goals are. During the e-mails, did she discuss her goals for students in general, her values and priorities in teaching, or in music? You may not have asked her. A secondary thing would move beyond general, what she might see for you (sight unseen), and here we get into the tricky territory of adult students (which a teacher might want to avoid).

This teacher is so popular that you had a waiting list of a month. What is she popular for? What kind of teaching does she represent? I.e. she could be a brilliant performer so everyone wants to study with her in the hopes that they / their kids will become brilliant. Or her students get good grades in exams, or a lot of her students enter competitions and win or get high scores. Or she's "fun" (though I don't think you'd go for that part.). Do you have some sense of what kind of teaching or values are there?

In other words - I have no sense of what kinds of goals this teacher has, coming from your initial interview. Your goals are clear.

The first lesson would be an assessment. Regardless of your stated goals, the teacher has to see how you play, how you approach things, and then over a few lessons she would have an idea of what to do with you. So in that regard, the lesson makes sense. However, the "Piano for Leisure" suggestion definitely does not! That makes me think that she made up her mind about you before you ever came in, simply based on your age. In regards to the scales and finger exercises, the question is - why were they assigned? When you were assigned these things, did she tell you how she wanted you to play them, what to pay attention to, or anything of that nature?

In terms of stating goals, I think that teachers are leery of students saying they want to be professional pianists or any kind of "be". If you state that you want to work seriously, get the skills and knowledge needed for good piano playing, and will do what is required, this gives you the same thing, but it's taken more seriously. Even so, teachers have negative experiences. If they give something that seems "babyish" the student may rebel. If they give a certain way of doing things, the student may have his own ideas. Or there is enthusiasm for a couple of months and then the student is gone. That's the kind of thing that they see too often, and being burned a couple of times, they're cautious.

It's a really tricky thing to find a teacher who will take you seriously and knows how to guide you, and sometimes trickier to get that teacher to give you a chance. If you do get that teacher, you have to follow through consistently to gain their trust that you will follow through.

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#2077656 - 05/05/13 01:05 PM Re: 25 yo taking up piano. Need a good teacher [Re: mattmorgan44]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 243
Loc: UK
Hi Matt thanks for that detailed post, it was actually very interesting to read. Did you ever try or consider the Kwai MP10?

I'm having a bit of a headache choosing as I not only want good authentic keys but also good features and for it to be portable. The fact that I have little experience of playing pianos (only played keyboard for a year when I was 12) makes it more difficult for me to judge. I wouldn't want a teacher to come over and then tell me my Digital wouldn't be suitable for long.

I think Roland's FP7F has been succeeded by the FP-80 which is one I'm seriously considering alongside Kwai's ES7 among others.


Edited by Enthusiast (05/05/13 01:07 PM)

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#2078240 - 05/06/13 10:43 AM Re: 25 yo taking up piano. Need a good teacher [Re: keystring]
mattmorgan44 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 78
Hi keystring, Thanks again for the advice. I am going to have to keep my answers somewhat brief. I know I have a long private message of yours to respond to so will elaborate there.

Originally Posted By: keystring
Coming into this late, but "as promised" in the video thread. smile

In reading this I see you had a number of interviews with this new teacher that you started with, and you say that the lesson was as if you had not talked at all. I gather that you talked about your goals, which are expressed as wanting to become serious pianist who will before on some level. What I did NOT see at all was what your new teacher's goals are. During the e-mails, did she discuss her goals for students in general, her values and priorities in teaching, or in music? You may not have asked her. A secondary thing would move beyond general, what she might see for you (sight unseen), and here we get into the tricky territory of adult students (which a teacher might want to avoid).


Well this is right on target. I am going to take much of the above advice as a to do list seeing as I am staying with the teacher for the time being. I certainly talked about my goals to a reasonable extent but I probably should have been more direct about them. I definitely expressed my desire to be very serious about pursuing piano. Regarding my teachers goals, for her students in general or otherwise, values and priorities etc. and what she sees for me. I didn't really ask about these things because I wouldn't have thought it was the right time (I was going to say not appropriate but its not the word I'm after). like I said, to do list. I think this is excellent advice and a good way to clear things up with her and either get things on track, or know for sure she is not the right teacher for me.

Quote:
This teacher is so popular that you had a waiting list of a month. What is she popular for? What kind of teaching does she represent? I.e. she could be a brilliant performer so everyone wants to study with her in the hopes that they / their kids will become brilliant. Or her students get good grades in exams, or a lot of her students enter competitions and win or get high scores. Or she's "fun" (though I don't think you'd go for that part.). Do you have some sense of what kind of teaching or values are there?

In other words - I have no sense of what kinds of goals this teacher has, coming from your initial interview. Your goals are clear.


Well I don't know the reasons exactly. What I do know is she is very attractive on paper. She has numerous qualifications, many many letters after her name lol. She seems very nice. I believe her students get very good (not exceptional) grades and finally I think she is quite well connected in the local piano scene which probably accounts for a lot of her work (which is also a great benefit for any of her students including me).

I may not know her values but I guess I do have a sense of her kind of teaching. I think she is the kind of teacher that wants her students to have fun. That is fine. But I think she is the kind of teacher that wants her students to just have fun. As long as they are having fun, not much more is important. So this lies hand in hand with her not actually having goals for me as a student. She commented many many times that at my age I just need to play for fun and not be too goal oriented. Well that didn't sit right with me considering our email exchanges and my ambitions. I think this is one of the main reasons for my concern and if I had of brought it up in other posts it might have prevented some back lash.

Quote:
The first lesson would be an assessment. Regardless of your stated goals, the teacher has to see how you play, how you approach things, and then over a few lessons she would have an idea of what to do with you. So in that regard, the lesson makes sense. However, the "Piano for Leisure" suggestion definitely does not! That makes me think that she made up her mind about you before you ever came in, simply based on your age. In regards to the scales and finger exercises, the question is - why were they assigned? When you were assigned these things, did she tell you how she wanted you to play them, what to pay attention to, or anything of that nature?


I assumed the scales and exercises were just normal first lesson type stuff. She played and I copied, she commented "good" "fine" etc. I was quite happy doing this really.

Agreed. Yes the first lesson is an assessment, but after so many things adding up, the piano for leisure was like the final straw - it was at the end of the lesson. We had discussed how much time I have and want to spend pursuing piano. Her reasoning for the piano for leisure over traditional piano forte was quote "it's less work load".

Quote:
In terms of stating goals, I think that teachers are leery of students saying they want to be professional pianists or any kind of "be". If you state that you want to work seriously, get the skills and knowledge needed for good piano playing, and will do what is required, this gives you the same thing, but it's taken more seriously. Even so, teachers have negative experiences. If they give something that seems "babyish" the student may rebel. If they give a certain way of doing things, the student may have his own ideas. Or there is enthusiasm for a couple of months and then the student is gone. That's the kind of thing that they see too often, and being burned a couple of times, they're cautious.


I did word my emails carefully as I am aware of teachers having those negative experiences. If I remember correctly, I included in the emails that I would call myself a beginner but have been practicing quite a bit in recent weeks to months. That I had taken a little over a year of lessons when i was very young but wasn't interested in exams at that age. That my passion for piano has sky rocketed over the last year and my circumstances have changed to where I can dedicate as much time as necessary to develop my playing (to the best of my ability). In brackets because I can't remember exactly. I may have shot myself in the foot with a "dedicate my life to piano" line lol. But it was/is true and I did explain what I meant by that. There was no "how quickly can you make me a professional pianist" or "I want to be a concert pianist in 10 years" at least wink

Quote:
It's a really tricky thing to find a teacher who will take you seriously and knows how to guide you, and sometimes trickier to get that teacher to give you a chance. If you do get that teacher, you have to follow through consistently to gain their trust that you will follow through.


Agreed. Thank you for all the advice I really appreciate it. So much for keeping it brief!
_________________________
Roland RD700NX | Roland HP-507

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#2078247 - 05/06/13 10:56 AM Re: 25 yo taking up piano. Need a good teacher [Re: Enthusiast]
mattmorgan44 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 78
Originally Posted By: Enthusiast
Hi Matt thanks for that detailed post, it was actually very interesting to read. Did you ever try or consider the Kwai MP10?

I'm having a bit of a headache choosing as I not only want good authentic keys but also good features and for it to be portable. The fact that I have little experience of playing pianos (only played keyboard for a year when I was 12) makes it more difficult for me to judge. I wouldn't want a teacher to come over and then tell me my Digital wouldn't be suitable for long.

I think Roland's FP7F has been succeeded by the FP-80 which is one I'm seriously considering alongside Kwai's ES7 among others.


No worries I'm glad to help. Unfortunately I did not try any of the Kwai's so I can't help you there. I only know that the Roland, if it has a similar action to the RD700, which i believe it is VERY similar, is really excellent.

There are some teachers out there that would say students must learn on an acoustic but I believe they are getting fewer and far between.

There are many more that will say an acoustic is better, but a digital will do if it is what is available.

And I believe there is a quickly growing number of teachers that understand how far digital stage pianos have come in recent years. I believe the Yamaha Avant grand digitals use the exact same action as a Yamaha acoustic line (I think). So things have changed. I know personally some teachers that agree that new digital pianos do a good job of mimicking an acoustic in terms of feel and one teacher said the Roland is the closest she has felt to an acoustic grand.

When you are talking to potential teacher(s), ask them what they think. I think most will say it is acceptable and I personally believe a new digital like the RD700 is fine to learn on most likely until advanced grades.

If you have the option of an acoustic, start a thread and get some good advice on whether it will really make a difference to your ability after learning on either one for a few years.

But I do believe the models you are looking at will serve you well.

All the best, Matt

[Edit: Remember I am a beginner too, I have just had the benefit of doing a lot of research and talking to some teachers. But it would be good to get advice from more seasoned piano players :)]


Edited by mattmorgan44 (05/06/13 10:59 AM)
_________________________
Roland RD700NX | Roland HP-507

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#2078280 - 05/06/13 12:04 PM Re: 25 yo taking up piano. Need a good teacher [Re: mattmorgan44]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11706
Loc: Canada
I have a bit of a better picture now, Matt. Thanks for answering. What you get from this teacher depends on what she potentially has to give (combination of teaching ability and musical abilities/knowledge), what you do with it, and tricky bit of goals defined between student and teacher which is the first hang up. You will probably want to redefine your goals to her as wanting to get the skills that are needed to play the piano well, and then (important), express your interest in what she finds important in that regard. I have some reasons for this. If she does actually take you seriously and tells you to do things, make sure that you follow through, in the manner that she says, but intelligently.

Meanwhile you've been given these scales and finger exercises (studies?). You've said that they each might take up 5 minutes of your time. I imagine that they could take a lot longer, because they can contain more that you can put into them. At this point, go back in your memory to the lesson. Did she point out anything as she did these exercises and scales? Were there things she emphasized, even if you thought "I know that already?" If so, that is what you should concentrate on. If she didn't use words, did she seem to be stressing anything in her manner of playing?

IF you have a teacher who can guide you (has the musical knowledge, teaching knowledge) -- which you may or may not have -- then she must be convinced in your interest in what she has to give. Otherwise you might get some routine. When you stress your goals, this should be seen as your willingness to work, but it can be seen as another adult student with an agenda.

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