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#2074017 - 04/30/13 09:00 AM I've been accused of cheating......
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1048
Loc: uk south
In no uncertain terms I‘ve been accused of cheating in the Mendelssohn Songs Without Words recital.

A PW member – name unknown to me but I chose here, playfully, to call him S (for sneak) – saw fit to raise an alarm in a PM to Rossy (Rostosky) who in turn contacted me for a reaction. To put it mildly I was livid. Yes, I know this is the reaction not just of the innocent but also the apparent reaction of the guilty who believe they can maintain a screen of deception.

The charge is that I recorded my piece using midi and that I sped up the result artificially by 30%. S claims it is obvious for anyone to see that I have done that – he leaves no room for doubt and complains that I have cheapened the recital experience!

Yes, I agree, speeding up is easy to do. I agree also that my video does have the choppy appearance of being processed but being clear of conscience and believing that PW members would not think me so crass as to post up a video so patently tampered with might conclude that this was due to an equipment shortcoming –for that is exactly what it was. I demonstrate this at the end of the post in a short video clip.

Had it not been for the fact that I’m submitting for the upcoming Grieg recital and - creeping arthritis permitting - will play a piece with some faster passages which will inevitably exhibit exactly the quirks visible in the SWW 67-2 video, I wouldn’t have taken the trouble to issue this refutation. It was evidently above S’s nature to consider the possibility of PMing me for my reaction and my possible explanation, instead prefering to generate smoke by addressing a third party and, I fear, incautiously prejudicing others through the PM network. That finally persuaded me to air this matter and nip the potential PM gossip in the bud before further resentment is stoked up and I earn the reputation of a charlatan.

So, S - who has the authority of someone who has done video and film scoring work - spotted ‘evidence’ of altered play back speed throughout ALL of my three recordings. WHAT??!! I struggled for weeks over two of my pieces to REDUCE the tempo and, on the day of recording, raced through several takes before finally managing to nail one calm enough to submit! If I’d bothered to cheat at all I’d have slowed the damn things down!.....S is so determined to find mischief that he undermines his own case.

So take the 67-2. Yes, that needed to be bright. He cites 0:30 and 1:33 as clear signs of tampering so here’s a clip I’ve re-recorded, doing a repeat loop on those two spots, putting a clock in the frame with a second hand so that it’s clear there’s no skulduggery (maybe it’s possible to fiddle this but a) I don’t now how and b) I couldn’t be bothered if I knew.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX9Ii6W2CPo

So please note;
(the second hand is, I think, clear enough)

The figures can be played at the required tempo.
The video has the same choppy speeded-up look as the submitted video, particularly in the LH.
The wider jumps in the RH look odd.
Even though both the camera and the boxes supporting the clock are on a firm footing they appear to be shaking, along with the keyboard. S was suspicious of excessive shaking throughout the original vids. I suspect the camera and/or its drivers and software are making a mess of things as a result of 'intelligent' tracking of the hands. Of course there is some actual shaking of the keyboard but the laws of physics assure us that it is natural.

Incidentally, I’m getting on in years and I have slight tremors in the hands and fingers when they’re not resting on the keys. I think that too is troublesome for an HD video webcam which, basically, has a problem with motion!

...thank you and goodnight.



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#2074026 - 04/30/13 09:15 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 10753
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Diretonic: I understand completely where you are coming from, but my thought was, "So what?" There was no "winner" in this, no prize money awarded, no bragging rights. It was just people submitting what they could do. If someone wants to think you cheated and doesn't have the decency to speak to you about it privately before telling others, then well, their actions speak for themselves.

Professionals who concertize for a living will do many many takes of phrases and then piece them together to make recordings. It's not that they can't play it well, it is simply that the level of perfection that is expected on non-live recordings these days so high that to have any errors is unforgivable.

Anyways, I know you want to set the record straight regardless, and that you have done.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2074029 - 04/30/13 09:19 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
I will have more to say about this later, but have to go out soon.
What I will say right now, is that I have no doubts about Dire tonics submissions whatsoever, and am very grateful to him for not bringing this up during the recital itself, he has excercised massive restraint,and not reacted hastily, if it was me, I would have been just as hurt, and so very angry: I may well have said something that I would regret.

Strike that, I would probably have said something that would have got me warned if not banned completely.

I had to try and deal with this during the later stages of the recital behind the scenes so to speak, and didnt quite know how to handle it for the best, I was very upset and my heart went out to Dire tonic.

I genuinely believe that there will be overwhelming support for him from both performers and listeners.
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#2074035 - 04/30/13 09:27 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
ElleC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 248
Loc: NJ, USA
Haters are always gonna hate! Unfortunately there's always 1 in a bunch. Don't let that discourage you, in fact, be proud of what you've been able to accomplish. If this person went out his/her way to make silly accusations that you cheated...then you obviously did wonderful on that piece!
_________________________
Adult beginner since January 2013. My only regret is that I didn't learn sooner.

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#2074038 - 04/30/13 09:29 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: Morodiene]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1048
Loc: uk south
-Morodiene, Rossy, ElleC - many thanks for saying that.

It had occurred to me let it rest but with other recitals upcoming and with future vids exhibiting the same problem I felt it likely there would be continued suspicion. But it was in the balance....

Also, I was considerably put out by all this - 'S' didn't express suspicion but conviction. I wanted to hit back.



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#2074049 - 04/30/13 09:46 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
ElleC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 248
Loc: NJ, USA
Dire tonic, this reminds me of an incident couple of weeks ago at my teacher's studio when I came in for my lesson. There was a boy who just got done with his lesson. His mom was upset and was vocal about her concerns that her son still can't "count" right even after however long he's been taking lessons and went out to say that he does better when he's home. To lighten up the mood, I said "don't worry, I flubber all the time when she's (my teacher) next to me." The lady told me "oh I remember you from the recital...I don't believe you've only taken lessons for 3 months! Not at all!" And walked out. At first I was appalled but then I realized I don't have to justify myself to anyone who's already made up their mind about me. And then I thought "Efff you lady! I'll show you what I can do in 6 months!"

The point is...use it as a catalyst and don't let it get to you. Can't wait to hear your Grieg recital piece!
_________________________
Adult beginner since January 2013. My only regret is that I didn't learn sooner.

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#2074053 - 04/30/13 09:53 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: ElleC]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2334
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: ElleC
At first I was appalled but then I realized I don't have to justify myself to anyone who's already made up their mind about me. And then I thought "Efff you lady! I'll show you what I can do in 6 months!"


Love it! Wonder how much effort it would take to shove the piano ... never mind!

Quote:
The point is...use it as a catalyst and don't let it get to you. Can't wait to hear your Grieg recital piece!


+1
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebestrume No. 3, S541
  • Bartk - Romanian Folk Dances, Sz. 56
    My Hungarian Period wink

Kawai K3

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#2074055 - 04/30/13 09:56 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
casinitaly Online   content

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4665
Loc: Italy
I have no idea why anyone would not address you personally if they wanted to discuss your video. I have no idea why anyone would feel it necessary to even suggest that someone had tampered with their video.

I feel sad that you now feel obliged to defend yourself and can only offer condolences.
I haven't listened to your clip in this thread. I figure you didn't need to go public with this - and I believe you when you say you didn't tamper with the video.
_________________________
Interested in MOYD? Check out the RULES!
XVIII-XXXIII
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2074063 - 04/30/13 10:06 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
dynamobt Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 608
Loc: NH
This makes me very sad and angry. If anyone could be accused of tampering with a recording, it is someone who records audio only. (Like I do) But, I trust that we are all on the honor system and abide by it. I choose to think the best of people. That the accuser did not come out in public with their comments speaks volumes. I applaud anyone who contributes to the recitals. No one should have to defend themselves here. I'm sad that this has happened. You have my full confidence dire tonic.
_________________________
1918 Mason & Hamlin BB




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#2074065 - 04/30/13 10:09 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
songwire Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/10/13
Posts: 12
Loc: NE Ohio
Perhaps some here are taking way too seriously what should be a pleasureable journey?

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#2074067 - 04/30/13 10:09 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
I think S has too much time on their hands.

To be honest anyone here could have been playing for years more than they admit to. They could have a teacher, or even be a teacher, and claim they are self taught. Anyone could upload a midi file to Soundcloud or suchlike, which is not really them, or upload a video with just pictures, or even be a recording of their neighbour with no internet access to realise the false claim.

Trolls and liars trip themselves up, no-one needs to root them out. Anyone could be a fraud, but it shows the bitterness and jealousy of someone when they determine to accuse,instead of trusting that people here are genuine.
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

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#2074074 - 04/30/13 10:32 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
stumbler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 279
Loc: Toronto
dire tonic, I feel bad that someone would do this to you.
I enjoyed your performances and have no question that they are genuine.

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#2074078 - 04/30/13 10:39 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Ragdoll Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 617
Loc: Illinois
dire tonic,
want me to go punch him in the neck? I know the bridge where he collect tolls. grin
_________________________
Ragdoll

Never get directions from someone who hasn't been there.


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#2074079 - 04/30/13 10:39 AM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Kymber Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 1348
Loc: MA
"S" needs to get a life.
_________________________
“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try,"
And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
― Bruce Lee

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#2074167 - 04/30/13 12:26 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Codi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 22
Loc: Banksoda muddy river, Missouri...
Hello Dire Tonic. It is my opinion that you have the right to be hurt and angry. The section looks complex and fast to me, so it obviously took much work to get to playing it well. To be accused of cheating after putting in all the effort would T me off as well.

I am new to this forum and don't know much about the recitals yet or how something like that could (or should) be dealt with. But for your own sake of feeling good, I hope you don't let it get to you too much. Most who accuse others are suffering from severe jealousy. In fact maybe it be better to take it as a compliment on your speed and accuracy! (High five on job well done/Piece well played!)

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#2074176 - 04/30/13 12:41 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Sam S Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1343
Loc: Georgia, USA
Sorry this had to happen to you dire tonic. The internet makes it easy for anonymous (and we are all anonymous, really) people to criticize in ways that they would not have the courage to do in person.

I'm surprised that we haven't had claims like this for the ABF quarterly recitals. Maybe we have and I just have never heard about it. Some people take themselves way too seriously.



Sam
_________________________
Every ABF recital since #13 Feb '09!
ABF Recital Index
My Recital Performances

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#2074178 - 04/30/13 12:43 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11179
Loc: Canada
This happened to me in another forum. It was the first thing I ever submitted, and the main idea was to share ideas and grow together. My accuser did it publicly. It would be better to have your playing ripped to shreds for mistakes and weaknesses, because at least then they are talking about your work. It's the fact of denying what comes from your own hands and efforts. It hurts.
Originally Posted By: songwire
Perhaps some here are taking way too seriously what should be a pleasureable journey?

Exactly. It's a journey, and each of us has his or her own. But it's less lonely when you share, and it may take a long time to come out and dare share anything. It takes courage and a certain trust in your fellows.

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#2074192 - 04/30/13 01:13 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8072
Loc: Georgia, USA
Hi,

Don’t let it bother you too much. I know that is easy for me to say, but when they (S or whoever) are harassing you and criticizing you, they are letting someone else rest… smile

I’ve been informed that some members here make fun of me and my piano playing and criticize me behind my back in PM’s… hey, it’s just the animal nature of some people. Meanness comes in all shapes and forms and manifests itself in many ways; even here on PW.

As for me, well, I just keep on playing my piano(s) the way I want to and keep on smiling… in fact, I wrote a song entitled “Play it like you want to”. smile

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2074216 - 04/30/13 01:51 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: Morodiene]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Diretonic: I understand completely where you are coming from, but my thought was, "So what?"

Easy. DT is a fine musician, and yet another viper in this forum has created something nasty. It is why I mostly don't come here any more.
Quote:

Professionals who concertize for a living will do many many takes of phrases and then piece them together to make recordings. It's not that they can't play it well, it is simply that the level of perfection that is expected on non-live recordings these days so high that to have any errors is unforgivable.

This is absolutely true. But being accused of speeding something up by 30% is not the same as doing many takes - splicing.

That kind of accusation is simply typical of trolls who have nothing better to do than to say horrible things about everyone, all from a place where they feel safe - and anonymous.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#2074218 - 04/30/13 01:55 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
-Morodiene, Rossy, ElleC - many thanks for saying that.

It had occurred to me let it rest but with other recitals upcoming and with future vids exhibiting the same problem I felt it likely there would be continued suspicion. But it was in the balance....

Also, I was considerably put out by all this - 'S' didn't express suspicion but conviction. I wanted to hit back.

As well you should have!


[/quote]
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#2074267 - 04/30/13 02:57 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2501
Loc: Maine
DT, I haven't had a chance to listen to the recital but did , after reading this thread, listen to your performance. Wonderful playing. I don't doubt for a second that there was no tampering but you have to admit, that is some weird looking video. I can see why someone might think it was sped up. Good for you to go to the trouble of re-recording a few parts with the clock there. Whoever "accused" you of cheating might have phrased his/her question a bit milder and just asked if he was really that in doubt. You are owed an apology.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#2074286 - 04/30/13 03:12 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 752
Loc: Liverpool, England
diretonic, sorry to hear you have been ill treated. I hadn't been on the Mendlessohn thread before and went to see your video- opus 30 no 6 right? There is one little good thing to come out of this- I LOVED your playing- beautiful. Your keyboard has a good sound. I had never heard this piece before and now you have introduced me to it. I am so happy to have heard it. You have won my friend- the sneak has not. I believe in your skill. It'll be a long time if ever that I could play this.
_________________________
"Music is the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend."

"He who divines the secret of my music is delivered from the misery that haunts the world."


Ludwig Van Beethoven

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#2074294 - 04/30/13 03:19 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: Gary D.]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 10753
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Diretonic: I understand completely where you are coming from, but my thought was, "So what?"

Easy. DT is a fine musician, and yet another viper in this forum has created something nasty. It is why I mostly don't come here any more.
Quote:

Professionals who concertize for a living will do many many takes of phrases and then piece them together to make recordings. It's not that they can't play it well, it is simply that the level of perfection that is expected on non-live recordings these days so high that to have any errors is unforgivable.

This is absolutely true. But being accused of speeding something up by 30% is not the same as doing many takes - splicing.

That kind of accusation is simply typical of trolls who have nothing better to do than to say horrible things about everyone, all from a place where they feel safe - and anonymous.


That is true Gary. My post was more to let DT know that feeding trolls like this is not really going to help, but I can relate 100% with wanting to defend yourself.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2074297 - 04/30/13 03:20 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Ganddalf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 551
Loc: Norway
DireTonic,

I was impressed by your performances in the Mendelssohn recital, but I would never suspect any kind of cheating.
Actually you should take the whole thing as a compliment. Obviously this is just a matter of envy.

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#2074309 - 04/30/13 03:34 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Polyphonist Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 6388
Loc: New York City
Yet another idiot who has no life and chooses to spend their (not-so-precious) time on the Internet falsely accusing people of speeding up a video. Trolls like this need to be removed from the site.

diretonic, I sympathize with you, and your response was completely appropriate.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2074342 - 04/30/13 04:14 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
That finally persuaded me to air this matter and nip the potential PM gossip in the bud before further resentment is stoked up and I earn the reputation of a charlatan.

I, sir, believe you to be a liar, a charlatan and a cheat. Those clearly are not your hands. laugh


(Of course, I'm kidding. It's pretty obvious the video is jumpy, but I would never have suspected that you sped up the video. Out of curiosity, what kind of surface is the recorder sitting on?)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2074364 - 04/30/13 04:37 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3132
Loc: Northern England.
It might be observed, a speeded up track will also speed up the decay rates on the piano bring played. You`ll still discern this even on fast passages; they`ll sound unnatural. Dt`s piano, for me, was and still is the Best On The Planet . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2074415 - 04/30/13 06:01 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
earlofmar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1118
Loc: Australia
This incident is further indication of how committed and serious people take their piano playing and their involvement in the forum. I can well understand your hurt dire tonic but also understand another's suspicion of wrong doing and probably felt a duty to say something.

I applaud your rebuff dire tonic (use of the clock in your video is masterful) but for the sake of the forum it would be best to put this to bed asap.
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXIII-4-XXX

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#2074470 - 04/30/13 07:36 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: earlofmar]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2501
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: earlofmar
This incident is further indication of how committed and serious people take their piano playing and their involvement in the forum. I can well understand your hurt dire tonic but also understand another's suspicion of wrong doing and probably felt a duty to say something.

I applaud your rebuff dire tonic (use of the clock in your video is masterful) but for the sake of the forum it would be best to put this to bed asap.


+1 At least the person in question PM'd and did not post his accusations on the forum. Of course if he had he would be eating some serious crow right about now.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#2074475 - 04/30/13 07:41 PM Re: I've been accused of cheating...... [Re: dire tonic]
LimeFriday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 303
Loc: Australia
dire tonic - I'm so sorry this happened. You stepped in and took up one of my pieces at VERY short notice when I was injured and unable to play - and I wanted to thank you for doing that. I'm sorry that your experience was marred by someone doubting your integrity. Glad you set the record straight! Your performance of all your Mendelssohn pieces were a joy to listen to.

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