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#2077697 - 05/05/13 02:42 PM Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update)
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 674
There have been two developments since my original post. First, I contacted the concert pianist Barabara Nissman, who has recorded a ton of the romantic repertoire, as well as being a Prokofiev specialist. She rolls chords extensively in her Debussy recordings.

She was unable help me but said the following regarding my thesis" "I completely agree with your premise. That is why I love listening to the old, now dead pianists! Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we had some sort of a recording by Liszt himself (not by his students but by the true “Master”)"

Secondly, I am almost 2/3rds of the way through Earl Wild's Memoir "A Walk On The Wild Side. After spending about 400 pages on stories about his personal and professional life, he decides to start talking about some serious music subjects.

Therefore, I will relate to you the following quote from page 448: "Since World War II, performers have, with few exceptions, been dominated by musicologists who have frightened everyone into uniformity. We no longer have the large varitey of unique personalities in the piano field.....

When I performed at the University of Maryland Piano Festival, I began my program with the Haydn Piano Sonata in D Major No.50. I was reviewed by a Washington, D.C. critic who criticized me severely because I broke some chords (I rolled some chords at the end of the last movement). It was a very common practice in Haydn's day to do this. Reading this criticism reminded me that there is such misinformtion about music today. We are subjected daily to the "urtext mob" (as Jorge Bolet often referred to them), who have put music into a straitjacket because they believe the printed page is sacred."

Finally, for your listening pleasure, Earl Wild's recording of the A Flat Major Ballade, in case any of you want hear how it is done with rolled and block chords. Please move the cursor to the 16.00 minute mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-59bSNgQAY

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#2078432 - 05/06/13 04:21 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update) [Re: Louis Podesta]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6215
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta

Finally, for your listening pleasure, Earl Wild's recording of the A Flat Major Ballade, in case any of you want hear how it is done with rolled and block chords. Please move the cursor to the 16.00 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-59bSNgQAY


Wonderful performance of the Ballade !!! thumb
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2078506 - 05/06/13 07:12 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update) [Re: Louis Podesta]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19228
Loc: New York City
I don't think the Earl Wild example is very good as I think he played mostly in the contemporary fashion. Occasionally using asynchronization or arpgeggiation is far different from continually doing it. I think Bolet fits far more closely to the contemporary approach also.


Edited by pianoloverus (05/06/13 07:20 PM)

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#2078563 - 05/06/13 09:57 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update) [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I don't think the Earl Wild example is very good as I think he played mostly in the contemporary fashion. Occasionally using asynchronization or arpgeggiation is far different from continually doing it....

Yes -- and in a like manner, I don't think we know what someone means if they said they "agree with the premise."

Louis: It's not clear what premise you're referring to. If it's that it can be good to do somewhat more arpeggiation than is usually done, or that there was a time when much more arpeggiation was done, or that even in the 18th century some arpeggiation was done, I don't think anybody would disagree with any of those. If your point is that much more arpeggiation should be done than is usually done, or that huge amounts of arpeggiation were done routinely at any time other than for a while in the mid- and late-19th century, that's where you run into trouble -- and I doubt many prominent people would agree with those things.

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#2078591 - 05/06/13 11:04 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update) [Re: Louis Podesta]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
I'm trying to picture the last movement of Rachmaninoff first sonata with all rolled chords. It's actually very hilarious. There is just absolutely no time to do that anywhere.. hahahhahhhaa
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2078595 - 05/06/13 11:11 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update) [Re: Louis Podesta]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2117
Loc: Canada
I'll admit that, while I don't roll things often, I don't play my chords synchronized in a lot of instances... especially if they're the "melody + bass note/octave" type.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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#2078831 - 05/07/13 01:30 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update) [Re: Mark_C]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 674
Mark C:

If you want to know what Barabara Nissman means by agreeing with my premise, why don't you email her and ask her yourself. This lady has been playing the piano for one long time, and mostly in a 19th century style.

As far as arpeggiation is concerned, since when are Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven considered 19th century performers. And, regarding "prominent people" agreeing with my research, in addition to Neal Peres da Costa and Kenneth Hamilton, I feel exactly the same way about them that Earl Wild did.

Through the BS of Urtext, these pseudo-intellectual phonies have hijacked the repertoire and robbed the musical world of the true sound of this beautiful music.

Please go to Joseph Horowitz' website and see how he has spent most of his adult life trying to show the public how the orchestral music of the great composers was originally composed and played. That has nothing to do with the piano.

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#2078965 - 05/07/13 06:48 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update) [Re: Louis Podesta]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta
If you want to know what Barabara Nissman means by agreeing with my premise, why don't you email her and ask her yourself....

What I'm saying is that you left it completely unclear, and I'll add that I have doubts if you really know what 'premise' she would have been agreeing with! If you think you do, I invite you to say. smile

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#2079830 - 05/09/13 12:49 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update) [Re: Louis Podesta]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 674
Mark C:

The following, absent my phone number, is the actual text of my email to Barbara Nissman:

"I am attempting to broadcast a news story detailing the piano performance method of the 19th century. My research, starting with the recordings of Kenneth Caswell, has lead me to believe that the world at large has no knowledge of how the repertoire of the Classical, Romantic and Impressionist Periods was originally performed. Using sources such as Mr. Caswell, Kenneth Hamilton, Neal Peres da Costa, and Clive Brown, it is my goal to have BBC World News America broadcast this news story. Can you help? If so, would you please contact me by email or by telephone at . . ."

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#2079845 - 05/09/13 01:28 PM Re: Brahms and Debussy, Arpeggiated and Asynchronized (Update) [Re: Louis Podesta]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
(edited post -- first version wasn't fair enough) smile

She agrees that we can stand to know more about past performance practices. I think many of us do (including me). But don't take too literally that she is agreeing with how strongly you put it, i.e. that the world at large has no knowledge of it. The problem that some of us have had with your posts is their extreme degree and provocativeness.


Edited by Mark_C (05/09/13 02:13 PM)

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