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#2078618 - 05/07/13 12:21 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomtomasino]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19777
Loc: New York
Tomasino -- Glad you're reading us, and glad to see you visiting back. And BTW I certainly hope I'm not one of the people you're worried about. We did have a little 'thing' a few years ago (misunderstanding), when I was new and before we knew each other at all, but I hope that's basically long forgotten. I've always viewed you as a great and valuable member, and hope you'll be visiting more often.

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#2078630 - 05/07/13 01:17 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Great to see you post. Missed you! Hope everything is well smile

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#2078631 - 05/07/13 01:22 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5933
Loc: Down Under
I'm glad to see you around, too. Always read your posts, contentious or otherwise. smile
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#2078684 - 05/07/13 07:14 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomtomasino]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7844
Originally Posted By: tomtomasino


Over the years I've become a target for several piano world participants who seem to be laying in wait for me whenever I submit a post. They jump up and pounce on me. I've taken one or two of them on from time to time and held my own pretty well--but to no avail. They just lay lower in the ditch. It's not fun, and it can be very time consuming. I end up writing so carefully and slowly, trying very hard to cause no offense--and still be clear in my thought--but cause offense I do. Some of my ideas may be a bubble off center, I know, and sometimes even contentious. Still, I feel we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense. And so, a number of months ago when I was pounced upon in just such a matter, I simply decided to let Piano World go for awhile.



Oh, please, cue the violins....

You were "pounced on" because you came up with an elaborate insult to a number of us, comparing our musical taste to some deluded acquired taste for the smell of dirty socks. And the response to that insult was entirely appropriate.

If you can dish it out, but can't take it, maybe it is better not to participate in an open forum like this. Maybe your own blog, where you can delete responses you don't like before they go public, would be more appropriate.

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#2078699 - 05/07/13 07:57 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11683
Loc: Canada
Curious about the socks, I did a search and found these incidents:

- Tea tastes like hot water strained through dirty socks.

- Would leaf blowers in the house pick up dirty socks?

- One member’s dog loves dirty socks.

- Life without a man means no dirty socks to pick up.

- Opinions are like dirty socks: everyone has a few and they stink.

- Valerian smells like dirty socks.

- Dirty socks are a cure for concert conversations.

- Getting used to new music and tolerating it can be like getting used to the smell of dirty socks.

Conclusion. People who play piano seem to have a thing about socks. Is it the pedal?



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#2078706 - 05/07/13 08:14 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: keystring]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7844
Originally Posted By: keystring

- Getting used to new music and tolerating it can be like getting used to the smell of dirty socks.



If that's what it like for you, well, fine.

But don't project it onto others as if they are under some delusion that causes them to like the smell of dirty socks.



Edited by wr (05/07/13 08:42 AM)

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#2078771 - 05/07/13 11:05 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1754
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Welcome back, Tomasino. I don't always agree with your observations, but you always seem to have something thoughtful to say.

For what it may be worth, I'll observe that my enjoyment of this website increased considerably when I commenced very selective use of the "Ignore this User" button. Just go to the top bar, click on "User List," search for the name of the user at issue, and click the "Ignore this User" button.

I only use it currently for three users, but to be spared posts from them that are almost always pointless, argumentative, and offensive is nearly priceless.

Although I say it who shouldn't, it isn't necessary to get sucked into flame wars. For some, that's a hobby and a goal.

I'd rather read thoughts about piano from the vast majority of the wonderful users here.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#2078776 - 05/07/13 11:17 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: keystring]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: keystring
Curious about the socks, I did a search and found these incidents:

- Tea tastes like hot water strained through dirty socks.

- Would leaf blowers in the house pick up dirty socks?

- One member’s dog loves dirty socks.

- Life without a man means no dirty socks to pick up.

- Opinions are like dirty socks: everyone has a few and they stink.

- Valerian smells like dirty socks.

- Dirty socks are a cure for concert conversations.

- Getting used to new music and tolerating it can be like getting used to the smell of dirty socks.

Conclusion. People who play piano seem to have a thing about socks. Is it the pedal?

Dunno about that conclusion, given that none of those points relates to piano at all.

FWIW, valerian smells like catnip. If you make some valerian tea, be prepared for your kitties to be very interested.

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#2078780 - 05/07/13 11:24 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11683
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: wr

If that's what it like for you, well, fine.

Those were quotes. I collected every incident of "dirty sock" that has been uttered in PianoWorld by different people. I thought it was funny (like in haha) how PWers seemed to think about socks.

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#2078784 - 05/07/13 11:27 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Goomer Piles]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11683
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles

Dunno about that conclusion, given that none of those points relates to piano at all.

(sigh) Somebody complained about a comment about socks. I looked it up, and discovered that PianoWorld members seem to talk frequently about dirty socks. Every single one of those examples was something some PW member said while discussing (mostly) piano-related things. It was an attempt to lighten atmosphere.

By the way, welcome back Tomasino.

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#2078789 - 05/07/13 11:34 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: keystring]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles

Dunno about that conclusion, given that none of those points relates to piano at all.

(sigh) Somebody complained about a comment about socks. I looked it up, and discovered that PianoWorld members seem to talk frequently about dirty socks. Every single one of those examples was something some PW member said while discussing (mostly) piano-related things. It was an attempt to lighten atmosphere.

By the way, welcome back Tomasino.

My bad. I didn't know your examples were from a Piano World search. I thought they were found randomly on the web.

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#2078847 - 05/07/13 02:14 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Here is my original comment which caused so much offense:


"Minnesota Public Radio has a little catch line they like to throw in during station breaks:

'Remember, all music was once new.'

Which is true, It's hard to disagree with that. And the implication, that we should give all new music a chance is something I also agree with--for awhile. But I won't listen endlessly in the spirit of tolerance. I won't necessarily listen until I am "used to it," and am on the edge of saying "I like it."

Endless listening and endless tolerance can lead to some strange conclusions. I imagine most of us could get used to the smell of our dirty socks piled up in the bottom of our bedroom closets. After while, if our mom comes in and throws the socks in the washer, we might be left feeling that we miss that smell. Indeed, we like it.

This little cameo of how we come to 'like' things can be applied to many issues of art and taste.

I've been trying for years to come up with a better way to validate artistic expression, but I haven't quite got it yet. But I do know that I'm very wary of getting used to something by endlessly and tolerantly listening it.

TomTomasino
aka
tomasino"



I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense. The comment contains a serious observation about how we might go astray in artistically validating new music. I accuse no one specifically of ill-considered choices in the music one chooses to like. It is simply an illustration, intended as a humorous one, of the process of how our tastes change. A similar illustration would be how our tastes change in automobile styles: Honda introduces little square cars, and many people dislike them. Soon those same people get used to it, at which point they're only one step away from saying they like those little square cars. Other examples: how did we learn to like olives, or whiskey or Limberger cheese, or how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk?--it's horrible. Now that last is humor too, and maybe if one is not from Minnesota, he or she won't quite get it. But if one takes offense at that, they're looking for it. As I wrote above, "I feel we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense."

TomTomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2078851 - 05/07/13 02:28 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1754
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Completely agree, Tomasino.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#2078893 - 05/07/13 04:15 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4781
Loc: USA
Anyone who would actually take offense to that isn't worth talking to.

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#2078972 - 05/07/13 07:05 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5532
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: tomasino
...how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk


Actually, 30 years after leaving Minnesota that still remains a mystery to me smile

laugh

Cathy
_________________________

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#2079145 - 05/08/13 06:22 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7844
Originally Posted By: tomasino

I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense.


Here's the link to the entire thread in which your message is found - it is about two-thirds of the way in. Context is helpful.

If you have really have trouble understanding why people took exception to the implication that they acquired a taste in new music in a manner comparable to getting used to the smell of a pile of dirty socks, you (and others) might consider reading more of it than just your own message. Both Lemon Pledge and debrucey were quite clear about the issue.

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#2079349 - 05/08/13 02:35 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense.


Here's the link to the entire thread in which your message is found - it is about two-thirds of the way in. Context is helpful.

If you have really have trouble understanding why people took exception to the implication that they acquired a taste in new music in a manner comparable to getting used to the smell of a pile of dirty socks, you (and others) might consider reading more of it than just your own message. Both Lemon Pledge and debrucey were quite clear about the issue.



Yes, I agree with you, context often makes a difference, and should always be considered. Thank you for providing it. But I don't see it makes much difference in this case.

Consider my post in the broader context you provide: It is a stand alone comment. It is not in response to a specific post in the thread or any thread, and it is directed and addressed to no one. The only relevant context, then, is the context that follows. You and several others provide the sole context. I wrote nothing further.

May I take it from your seeming hesitancy to address the comments I made concerning the tone and intent of my post, that you are conceding my main points?: that in response to a post such as mine, "one needs to be looking for offense to take offense," and that in general, "we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense."

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2079351 - 05/08/13 02:37 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense.


Here's the link to the entire thread in which your message is found - it is about two-thirds of the way in. Context is helpful.

If you have really have trouble understanding why people took exception to the implication that they acquired a taste in new music in a manner comparable to getting used to the smell of a pile of dirty socks, you (and others) might consider reading more of it than just your own message. Both Lemon Pledge and debrucey were quite clear about the issue.

I didn't like what I read even without context. I doubt many of us live with our moms, so that whole idea was ridiculous.

It got worse with the implication that this 'little cameo' is how 'we' come to like things. Who's 'we'?

A question: can 'we' have multiple identities on this board at the same time, like tomasino and tomtomasino? That could be fun and interesting.

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#2079403 - 05/08/13 04:18 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Goomer Piles]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense.


Here's the link to the entire thread in which your message is found - it is about two-thirds of the way in. Context is helpful.

If you have really have trouble understanding why people took exception to the implication that they acquired a taste in new music in a manner comparable to getting used to the smell of a pile of dirty socks, you (and others) might consider reading more of it than just your own message. Both Lemon Pledge and debrucey were quite clear about the issue.

I didn't like what I read even without context. I doubt many of us live with our moms, so that whole idea was ridiculous.

It got worse with the implication that this 'little cameo' is how 'we' come to like things. Who's 'we'?

A question: can 'we' have multiple identities on this board at the same time, like tomasino and tomtomasino? That could be fun and interesting.

I found nothing offensive about tomasino's original post, even with the context provided. (Maybe it's because I share his opinion, and would've been even more strident in my comments. grin )

But aside from my own opinions, I read the post several times, and found it to be as innocuous as tomasino said: An isolated comment, directed at no one in particular. He seemed to be describing his own attempts at expanding his musical horizons, but I sensed absolutely no criticism of others who may enjoy the types of music he was having difficulty with.

Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

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#2079409 - 05/08/13 04:29 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 131
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

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#2079421 - 05/08/13 04:50 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Goomer Piles]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

He used 1st person plural pronouns, like "we" and "us", so I assumed he was not setting himself above anyone else, but was talking about people like himself, who may struggle to like something that others have deemed great or profound.

But I won't belabor the point. You're obviously sticking with "offensive", so I'm not likely to persuade you otherwise. So how would you classify this particular "offense", felony or misdemeanor? Might you settle for a simple "parking violation"? laugh

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#2079430 - 05/08/13 05:02 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5262
Loc: Europe
I don't know... doesn't it feel insulting to someone who makes an effort to make a living from composing contemporary music to be compared to dirty socks!?!? Just sayin'
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2079437 - 05/08/13 05:25 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Nikolas]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4781
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I don't know... doesn't it feel insulting to someone who makes an effort to make a living from composing contemporary music to be compared to dirty socks!?!? Just sayin'


I don't think this is quite what he's saying.

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#2079457 - 05/08/13 06:14 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: JoelW]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I don't know... doesn't it feel insulting to someone who makes an effort to make a living from composing contemporary music to be compared to dirty socks!?!? Just sayin'


I don't think this is quite what he's saying.

I don't think he was saying that at all. He was using an analogy to describe the process of trying to like something through repetition that he simply can't learn to like. I probably wouldn't have used the "dirty sock" analogy myself, and maybe that's what's really irking people. If so, then maybe forgive him for a minor rhetorical faux pas rather than inferring insult? grin

Nikolas, aren't there forms of music, or musical genres that you simply can't gravitate to? Do you like American country and western, hip-hop, heavy metal, etc.? Do you love it all, or are there certain types of music where you say, "I simply don't 'get' it"?

Well, that's where I am when it comes to 20th century classical music. I simply don't "get it". Maybe I just have very plebeian, vulgar, pedestrian musical tastes, and if so, I'm fine with that. I'm perfectly willing to concede that the problem may be with me. But I also can't force myself to like something that I don't.

And that in no way means that I am disrespectful of those who write or perform contemporary music. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who can tackle the complexities of musical composition, whether I personally relate to it or not. I don't want to speak for tomasino, but I sense that he might have a similar opinion.

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#2079463 - 05/08/13 06:39 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
jdw Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 972
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Oy. Is it really necessary to turn this into a thread about rehashing old grievances?

I'll say welcome back to tomasino too--I've enjoyed his posts, as well as those of Nikolas and many others.

Here's hoping things will lighten up. Sun has come out after rain here in Philly . . . and after all it's May.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2079479 - 05/08/13 07:37 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4781
Loc: USA
Exactly.

Replace "the smell of dirt socks" with "the taste of avocados" and it suddenly doesn't seem so bad.

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#2079496 - 05/08/13 08:35 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7844
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

He used 1st person plural pronouns, like "we" and "us", so I assumed he was not setting himself above anyone else, but was talking about people like himself, who may struggle to like something that others have deemed great or profound.



The way he uses the 1st person plural implies that those of us who do like the music that he doesn't like are somehow acclimatized to something distasteful and "dirty". Never once is there any suggestion that the "dirty sock" music might be actually be any good.

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#2079503 - 05/08/13 08:55 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5122
While we're pondering, let's listen to some 'dirty sock' music wink :

Harrison's Harrison's Clocks:
http://youtu.be/6sHPND4kJ10
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2079504 - 05/08/13 08:58 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

He used 1st person plural pronouns, like "we" and "us", so I assumed he was not setting himself above anyone else, but was talking about people like himself, who may struggle to like something that others have deemed great or profound.

The way he uses the 1st person plural implies that those of us who do like the music that he doesn't like are somehow acclimatized to something distasteful and "dirty". Never once is there any suggestion that the "dirty sock" music might be actually be any good.

Aha!!

It IS about
Click to reveal..
the dirty sock business. grin

Folks, this is a tempest in a teapot. Please lighten up, and stop personalizing everything. Once in a while, it's not about you and your sensibilities. It's about taste. And every single one of us is entitled to our own taste.

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#2079537 - 05/08/13 10:22 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
Although I wouldn't put dirty socks in my soup or in any other food I eat, I didn't find his post insulting enough to re-pound on someone. If he already got pounded over his mentioning of dirty socks, continuous pounding on top of the initial pounding is unnecessary in my view.
_________________________
Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces

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