Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
127 registered (ando, accordeur, AndyJoe, 36251, angga888, 38 invisible), 1574 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#2079542 - 05/08/13 10:41 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

He used 1st person plural pronouns, like "we" and "us", so I assumed he was not setting himself above anyone else, but was talking about people like himself, who may struggle to like something that others have deemed great or profound.

The way he uses the 1st person plural implies that those of us who do like the music that he doesn't like are somehow acclimatized to something distasteful and "dirty". Never once is there any suggestion that the "dirty sock" music might be actually be any good.

Aha!!

It IS about
Click to reveal..
the dirty sock business. grin

Folks, this is a tempest in a teapot. Please lighten up, and stop personalizing everything. Once in a while, it's not about you and your sensibilities. It's about taste. And every single one of us is entitled to our own taste.


You just don't get it, probably because you don't care about the music in question.

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2079556 - 05/08/13 11:18 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Nikolas, aren't there forms of music, or musical genres that you simply can't gravitate to? Do you like American country and western, hip-hop, heavy metal, etc.? Do you love it all, or are there certain types of music where you say, "I simply don't 'get' it"?
Of course there are! But try to find one post where I show disrespect in such a way to those genres and get back to me!

Quote:
Well, that's where I am when it comes to 20th century classical music. I simply don't "get it". Maybe I just have very plebeian, vulgar, pedestrian musical tastes, and if so, I'm fine with that. I'm perfectly willing to concede that the problem may be with me. But I also can't force myself to like something that I don't.
Sure thing and no problem. In fact when I apply for a gig for various jobs (piano bar, etc) I do stress that I know very little jazz and that it's not something that I enjoy playing, or listening... But that's quite a different thing that going about dirty socks and moms and the such, right?

Quote:
And that in no way means that I am disrespectful of those who write or perform contemporary music. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who can tackle the complexities of musical composition, whether I personally relate to it or not. I don't want to speak for tomasino, but I sense that he might have a similar opinion.
Again by all means, your taste is your taste. It's impossible to please everyone and the same goes for tomasino. But a level of respect should be there. The analogy was simply bad!

Not only because of the dirty socks, but because of the mom cleaning the room and the rest.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2079560 - 05/08/13 11:23 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Old Man
I'm perfectly willing to concede that the problem may be with me. But I also can't force myself to like something that I don't.
No-one is asking you to.
Originally Posted By: Old Man
And that in no way means that I am disrespectful of those who write or perform contemporary music. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who can tackle the complexities of musical composition, whether I personally relate to it or not. I don't want to speak for tomasino, but I sense that he might have a similar opinion.
The background is that not all posters have this attitude. And there have been many threads where a poster basically says "contemporary music is ridiculous - no-one could really like it; those who say they do are just trying to show they're more knowledgeable than the rest of us". It gets a bit tiresome to not only have the music one likes rubbished (by people who often haven't listened to much of it) but also to be, by implication, accused of either self-delusion or intellectual posing. So the "dirty sock" reference wasn't the best analogy, given this background.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#2079611 - 05/09/13 02:15 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
This is Piano World...some people here are incredibly uptight and appear to feed on taking offense at stuff that really doesn't matter. If you can look past that, there are quite a few incredibly knowledgeable and accomplished people here. And that makes it all worth participating/reading. smile

http://xkcd.com/386/

_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

Top
#2079634 - 05/09/13 03:20 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: currawong]
MathGuy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 232
Loc: California
I've seen a number of threads of the type you're referring to, Currawong, and I share your distaste for having modern music rubbished (great word, by the way). But Tomasino wasn't rubbishing modern music, or comparing it with the smell of dirty socks, or comparing anyone who composes it with the smell of dirty socks. He did say cite something that, for him, the smell of dirty socks and certain modern music have in common, namely that they're both things that he might get accustomed to through repeated exposure, but doesn't necessarily want to. In fact, that's a pretty effective figure of speech, not only because the process of getting used to an unpleasant smell is familiar to most of us, but because juxtaposing two things as obviously unrelated as modern music and smelly socks is a little bit outlandish, and therefore striking and memorable.

On the other hand, we also should all be familiar with the phenomenon whereby readers and listeners - especially ones whose ox has already been gored - will get offended when certain words and phrases are used in close proximity, even if the connection is as remote as it is in Tomasino's post. People regularly get in trouble for this kind of "insensitivity" (most notably in connection with race and religion), so in that sense the type of reaction seen on this thread was somewhat predictable, and therefore avoidable.

Accordingly, I probably should go back and edit out that ox-goring metaphor in the preceding paragraph, because someone who doesn't like modern music could complain that I said they go around eviscerating cattle. Oh, and since I mentioned that potential complaint, they might also complain that I called them illogical, since that hypothetical complaint about the ox-goring thing wouldn't actually make sense. Also, now that I've mentioned two of their potential complaints, they may think I'm calling them chronic complainers. Yep, I definitely should edit that out... wink

Top
#2079683 - 05/09/13 07:12 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: MathGuy]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
I've seen a number of threads of the type you're referring to, Currawong, and I share your distaste for having modern music rubbished (great word, by the way). But Tomasino wasn't rubbishing modern music, or comparing it with the smell of dirty socks, or comparing anyone who composes it with the smell of dirty socks. He did say cite something that, for him, the smell of dirty socks and certain modern music have in common, namely that they're both things that he might get accustomed to through repeated exposure, but doesn't necessarily want to. In fact, that's a pretty effective figure of speech, not only because the process of getting used to an unpleasant smell is familiar to most of us, but because juxtaposing two things as obviously unrelated as modern music and smelly socks is a little bit outlandish, and therefore striking and memorable.



It seems rather odd that you only see a commonality, but no comparison. I don't think it's just because you have some super-objective point of view, that others of us don't have. The flow of the post clearly leads to a comparison of music he doesn't like to the smell of dirty socks. He first establishes that there is music he won't tolerate, and then proposes that, just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks, some people do keep listening to the music until they can tolerate it. In his words, that is a "strange result", just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks. If that's not a comparison, I really can't imagine what it takes to make one, in your eyes.

Anyway, you can skip the entire dirty socks thing and still see that he is rubbishing the music. He is saying, in fact, that he is NOT willing to go through the dirty socks phase, but dismisses the music as rubbish before then.

Top
#2079685 - 05/09/13 07:15 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Horowitzian]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
This is Piano World...some people here are incredibly uptight and appear to feed on taking offense at stuff that really doesn't matter.


You mean like you taking offense at people you see as being "incredibly uptight"?

Top
#2079715 - 05/09/13 08:17 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: jotur]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2465
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: jotur
Originally Posted By: tomasino
...how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk


Actually, 30 years after leaving Minnesota that still remains a mystery to me smile

laugh

Cathy


I'm a Minnesota native, and I still don't get it. However, as Tomasino knows, I'm certainly not a Minnesota Norwegian laugh

Btw, please pass the collard greens!
_________________________
Carl


Top
#2079789 - 05/09/13 10:41 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
MathGuy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 232
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
I've seen a number of threads of the type you're referring to, Currawong, and I share your distaste for having modern music rubbished (great word, by the way). But Tomasino wasn't rubbishing modern music, or comparing it with the smell of dirty socks, or comparing anyone who composes it with the smell of dirty socks. He did say cite something that, for him, the smell of dirty socks and certain modern music have in common, namely that they're both things that he might get accustomed to through repeated exposure, but doesn't necessarily want to. In fact, that's a pretty effective figure of speech, not only because the process of getting used to an unpleasant smell is familiar to most of us, but because juxtaposing two things as obviously unrelated as modern music and smelly socks is a little bit outlandish, and therefore striking and memorable.


It seems rather odd that you only see a commonality, but no comparison. I don't think it's just because you have some super-objective point of view, that others of us don't have. The flow of the post clearly leads to a comparison of music he doesn't like to the smell of dirty socks. He first establishes that there is music he won't tolerate, and then proposes that, just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks, some people do keep listening to the music until they can tolerate it. In his words, that is a "strange result", just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks. If that's not a comparison, I really can't imagine what it takes to make one, in your eyes.

Anyway, you can skip the entire dirty socks thing and still see that he is rubbishing the music. He is saying, in fact, that he is NOT willing to go through the dirty socks phase, but dismisses the music as rubbish before then.


Here are some examples, since you said you can't imagine what it would take to offend me:
Highly offensive: Modern music is an unpleasant smell.
Moderately offensive: Modern music is like an unpleasant smell.
Barely offensive: Modern music has one abstract property in common with an unpleasant smell, namely that they're both things that someone might come to tolerate or even enjoy through repeated exposure, despite not caring for them initially.

As for Tomasino rubbishing modern music, it's simply not there in the post under discussion. He certainly implies that there's modern music he doesn't like, but if someone did like every piece of modern music, or every flavor of ice cream for that matter, it would call their taste and discrimination into question. And his only earlier post in the same thread said only:
Originally Posted By: tomtomasino
I'm curious. What would "modern sonata form" be? Is it recognized as such, or are you simply referring to the various latter day compositions called "sonatas?"
which might have a subtext but certainly isn't savaging anything.

Top
#2079807 - 05/09/13 11:54 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Hmm....to lock or not to lock. On one hand, this thread is a convoluted, ill-tempered mess. On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to deal with the whining that would inevitably result from my closing it. I keep ignoring it, thinking it will go away, but then I remember, it's the internet, and a winner must be declared at all costs, so let the games continue (for now.)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Top
#2079814 - 05/09/13 12:14 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3489
Loc: US
Tomasino,

I was very glad to see you posting again and I hope this doesn't cause you to stay away (although I can see how it might). I did not find the "dirty socks" analogy offensive even though I like a lot of modern music-- it made me laugh. Kind of like some folks' reaction to a good Roquefort-- Yum! laugh

Sophia

Top
#2079817 - 05/09/13 12:15 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Kreisler]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Kreisler: I vote for open also.
IMO while the thread has the aspects you mentioned, that doesn't mean it hasn't also been useful and even interesting. I think it has been. Maybe even productive. smile

BTW I was on that other thread and didn't think what Tomasino said was offensive. I also didn't think that anything people said back to him was offensive either.

Top
#2079852 - 05/09/13 01:52 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: griffin2417]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: griffin2417
Originally Posted By: jotur
Originally Posted By: tomasino
...how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk


Actually, 30 years after leaving Minnesota that still remains a mystery to me smile

laugh

Cathy


I'm a Minnesota native, and I still don't get it. However, as Tomasino knows, I'm certainly not a Minnesota Norwegian laugh

Btw, please pass the collard greens!



Hi Carl,

Whatd'ya think? Maybe a bit of levity would lighten this whole thing up, and we can avert the censor's scissors. I've written a little piece to further illustrate my point about learning to like dirty socks, entitled:

The TRUTH about the perpetuation of Lutefisk eating through multiple generations of Scandinavian-Americans in Minnesota,

by Tom Foley.

Highly respected ethnologists have known, and have written for many years in their learned treatises, that many ethnic groups around the globe have special initiation rites for outsiders attempting to marry into the fold. It often revolves around revolting ethnic food.

In the Norwegian communities of Minnesota, the ritual is set around the “Annual Christmastime Lutefisk Dinner,” held throughout Minnesota in Lutheran church basements.

It works something like this: A young man of unsound heritage--that would be anything not Norwegian--starts a new job, and he notices that in the next cubicle is a pretty little Norsky gal sitting at her desk and working on the computer. Well, he catches her eye every so often, and it seems like everytime he goes off to the water cooler why she goes too. Well, after while it’s pretty hard not to start a conversation, and one thing leads to another, and before you know it, don’cha know, well they’re off to the movies together, and then, why Holy Mackeral, it’s already Christmas time, and she asks him if he wouldn’t like to meet her family. And maybe the “Annual Christmas Lutefisk Feed” in the basement of the Lutheran Church in her home town up there in Lindstrom, Minnesota might be just the right setting.

This is a culture trap, and our hero hasn’t lived his whole life as a non-Norwegian in Minnesota for nothing, and he knows better than to say “yes” too quickly to a Lutefisk dinner--but still, she’s a very pretty little Norsky, and he's confused, and maybe he loves her and maybe she loves him, and he’s just not quite quick enough at biting his tongue, and so he finds himself saying “yes” in his confusion.

Pale faced and drawn, he arrives there at the Christmas Eve Lutefisk Dinner with the pretty little Norsky holding onto his arm all nice and sweet. Looking around, he can’t help but notice that the Norwegians are really making quite a show of how this is the best Lutefisk they ever tasted. They’re all standing in line waiting to get some, and they pile it up high on their plates.

He can’t help but notice the clear liquid that seeps out from beneath the Lutefisk onto the plate, reminding him of the drizzle coming from the nose of someone who suffers from severe nasal allergies--well, with that for a thought he gags right there--he starts to make a run for the door, but the sweet little Norsky anticipates this and squeezes his arm encouragingly, and presses up against him, and so he takes a deep breath instead.

He desperately seeks to reassure himself that it’ll all be OK. They seem like real nice people, afterall, as he watches them scarf down their Lutefisk and go back for seconds, and they tell him he better get some real quick before it all gets eaten up. Before long he’s standing in line and a nice old Scandahoovian lady piles some Lutefisk high up on his plate and tops it off with some lingenberries and cream sauce. “Ummm, yummy” she says, while rubbing her tummy.

Still pale-faced, he sits down on a bench at a long table. He takes his time eating the pickled herring and the potatoes on his plate, and then looks around and smiles as if to say, “well, that was really good. What a treat. Thank you.” But they’re all looking at him in a focused and intense manner. A kindly old lady says “are you gonna try some of the Lutefisk too?”

With an overwhelming sense of dread, he carefully loads up the fork, making sure the first bite is mostly lingenberries and cream sauce with maybe just a little bit of Lutefisk. The church basement has become very still, just the sound of knives and forks as the Norskys concentrate on their Lutefisk.

He takes his first nibble, and don’cha know he nearly barfs right there, but he somehow manages to regain his composure with a little help from his sweetie who squeezes his arm. Just for a second it seems as if the Norsky's looked up from their plates. But the church basement remains very silent, just the sounds of knives and forks as they continue to scarf down the Lutefisk in deep concentration.

“Tastes gud, ja?” says a kindly old Norwegian gent with a twinkle in his eye, while offering him a swig of Norwegian aquavit from a flask. He eagerly takes a swig to wash away the dreadful taste and the slippery sluggish slimy texture, and then, somehow, with the aid of the Norwegian aquavit, gets up the courage to take another bite of Lutefisk, then another swig, and well, one thing leads to another, don’cha know, and before long he’s singing Norwegian songs and telling Ole and Lena yokes--and then he takes another bite, another swig, and another bite-- it gets easier and easier.

A little later he is awakened from his semi-comatose condition by a loud commotion in Norwegian. They all seem to be having a real good time yoost hootin’ and hollarin’ and knee slappin’ away about something real funny. He's in no mood for humor as he hears a single line of English in a deep Scandahoovian accent singing out, “Did’ja notice how he loaded up duh first bite dere vis mostly lingenberries?” Then they all slap their knees and go “hoo ha, hoo ha,” and hoot and hollar some more.

Well, if this young fellow can man-up to this sort of ethnic humor, he’ll probably succeed in marrying the pretty little Norsky girl--and it’ll be a good thing too--and for generations of grandchildren and great-grandchildren, he’ll have to endure the hilarity of his first lutefisk feed--”Granmama, tell us again about Granpapa and the Lutefisk dinner, and how he loaded up the fork with mostly lingenberries.” Even his great grandchildren will go “hoo ha,” and everybody will slap their knees with the hilarity of the retelling. And there’s no escape, no end to it. Even the neighbors, and the neighbor’s neighbors, and all their cousins and their uncles and their aunts will know about it too. This is just the way it is on marrying into the Scandahoovian community here in Minnesoota. This is how they learn to like Lutefisk. They do it by eating the horrid stuff every Christmas til they get used to it, and by then having a really good time at the novitiate's expense.

And our hero will participate in this initiation ritual every time one of his daughters, granddaughters and greatgrandaughters brings home a new beau. And after just one genration, he will learn to like Lutefisk, to love it, to lust for it, and to go “hoo ha,” and slap his knees.

And as learned ethnologists know, and have written about in their scholarly treatises, it works in much the same way all around the world. The Scots and their “Haggis,” for example--Scots don’t just happen to like it. They learn to like it through generations of marriage initiation rites, and the association of it with having a really good time. And Afro-Americans too, with their “Chitlins.” Don't fall for it. It’s pig’s intestines for cripe’s sake. Who would like it? It's a set up, and they'll make a really big fuss about how good it is if there’s a honky ready at hand wanting to carry off the prettyist daughter in the family. So tread carefully. You may like the girl well enough--and it may be worth it, don’t discount that--but just know what you’re getting into.

It’ll work something like this. The girl will invite you out for drinks with her older brother, Xavier, and you seem to get on real well with him talking about sports and the Minnesota Vikings. And when the topic turns to the Minnesota Twins, you will truly bond with him in a deep and dark mood of brotherly gloom.

But then, happily, Xavier breaks the spell with a wide smile, and invites you home for Chitlins. “Hey, man, you oughta c’mon home and have some real good Chitlins like Gramma used to make in the deep south, mmmm yummy, that’s goooooood eatin,” as he rubs his belly.

Now be warned. This is a set-up--and sweet as she is, and maybe she even loves you--she's in on it, she knows what's goin' on. If you accept the invitation, it will be unbearable just like you knew it would be--pig intestines, think about it--and after you leave, they will all gather in the kitchen and give each other round after round of high fives. “Didja hear ‘m mama,” hoots Xavier, “d‘ja hear ‘m. He said . . . he said . . . hoo ha . . . the honky said . . . he said he LIKED it.” This is followed by hooting, hollaring and knee slapping, and then another round of high-fives. And if you marry her--and if you’ve got any sense, you will, because she loves you--you’ll have to live with this humiliation til your dying day. And you’ll learn to truly love it about a year or so later. You’ll come to appreciate the exquisite beauty of how this situation of hilarity at your expense came about.

It’ll go something like this: Your new in-laws will still be hooting it up and doing high fives about you and the Chitlins as you all pile into the car--you with your lovely new baby and your beautiful new wife--to go out to dinner with Sarita Gupta’s family. Now Sarita Gupta is from the same family who owns the Curry House across town. Seems your wife’s older brother, Xavier, has found himself a pretty little gal from India, and it’s time for the two families to get together to share some fine ethnic food--#5 ON THE SPICY SCALE.

“Hoo ha” you think, as you watch Xavier eating every bit of it with a hot curry eating grin on his face, and you wallow in delight with your new-found understanding and appreciation of the uses of fine ethnic cuisine. There’s even some drizzle coming out of his nose from the heat, like the drizzle that comes from the nose of someone with severe nasal allergies, and between every other bite or so, Sarita sweetly wipes it off with a napkin.

And Sarita’s family will see to it that Xavier lives with this for the rest of his days. Even the neighbors and the neighbor’s neighbors, and all their cousins and their uncles and their aunts . . . . And after only one generation, Xavier will learn to like #5 ON THE SPICY SCALE.
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


Top
#2079867 - 05/09/13 02:40 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5659
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
smile

Bonding over the Minnesota Twins laugh

Cathy
_________________________

Top
#2079895 - 05/09/13 03:32 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5549
Hmmm, I love contemporary music (other than the squeaky-gate or plink-plonk variety), and I just LOVE eating very hot curries, haggis (and deep-fried Mars bars*, and deep-fried ice cream), black pudding, entrails and offal (including stomachs and intestines), brains, ears, eyes etc; and when I went touring Down Under, I went on a walkabout with an aboriginal so that he could show me how to find and eat live red ants and witchetty grubs, among other delicacies. I've yet to have the pleasure of eating that Norwegian decomposed fish, but next time I visit Troldhaugen, perhaps.

And I'm not of Scandinavian stock...... grin

*deep-fried Mars bar is another Scottish delicacy to improve (i.e. increase) your cholesterol level: the chocolate-coated nougat-and-caramel confectionary (straight from the refrigerator) is coated in batter and quickly deep-fried, without the bar melting. Ditto for deep-fried ice-cream. Yum!!
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#2079950 - 05/09/13 05:42 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Hehe...I have now been both lauded and chastised for leaving this thread open.

So here's the deal:

If you like that the thread is open, feel free to participate.

If you don't like that the thread is open. Feel free to NOT READ IT.

laugh
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Top
#2079957 - 05/09/13 05:52 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
How about you lock it each day at noon, and unlock it at midnight, and so on? grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2079959 - 05/09/13 05:55 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Kreisler]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Those that feel offended should remember that it was the modernists who were mocking the traditionalists, and still do in academia.
Ives"Use your ears like a man"
Babbitt "who cares if you listen"
It has been the more "traditionalist " listener, and composer, who've been "the offended" in this scenario

Top
#2079963 - 05/09/13 06:03 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Kreisler]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Hehe...I have now been both lauded and chastised for leaving this thread open.

So here's the deal:

If you like that the thread is open, feel free to participate.

If you don't like that the thread is open. Feel free to NOT READ IT.

laugh

Put me down as a "lauder". smile

And your last 2 sentences summarize perfectly why we "whiners" believe threads should be left open, if at all possible.

And I agree with Mark that neither side was particularly "offensive", or, to use your words, "ill tempered". The internet is a feeble medium for communication, so misinterpretation abounds and feelings get hurt. But I don't think anyone has descended to name calling yet, so I'd call that downright civil. laugh

Top
#2079970 - 05/09/13 06:15 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

Top
#2079977 - 05/09/13 06:36 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Well good. It seems like we're not gonna be cut off just yet.

In the meantime, I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


Top
#2079982 - 05/09/13 06:47 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: MathGuy]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
I've seen a number of threads of the type you're referring to, Currawong, and I share your distaste for having modern music rubbished (great word, by the way). But Tomasino wasn't rubbishing modern music, or comparing it with the smell of dirty socks, or comparing anyone who composes it with the smell of dirty socks. He did say cite something that, for him, the smell of dirty socks and certain modern music have in common, namely that they're both things that he might get accustomed to through repeated exposure, but doesn't necessarily want to. In fact, that's a pretty effective figure of speech, not only because the process of getting used to an unpleasant smell is familiar to most of us, but because juxtaposing two things as obviously unrelated as modern music and smelly socks is a little bit outlandish, and therefore striking and memorable.


It seems rather odd that you only see a commonality, but no comparison. I don't think it's just because you have some super-objective point of view, that others of us don't have. The flow of the post clearly leads to a comparison of music he doesn't like to the smell of dirty socks. He first establishes that there is music he won't tolerate, and then proposes that, just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks, some people do keep listening to the music until they can tolerate it. In his words, that is a "strange result", just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks. If that's not a comparison, I really can't imagine what it takes to make one, in your eyes.

Anyway, you can skip the entire dirty socks thing and still see that he is rubbishing the music. He is saying, in fact, that he is NOT willing to go through the dirty socks phase, but dismisses the music as rubbish before then.


Here are some examples, since you said you can't imagine what it would take to offend me:
Highly offensive: Modern music is an unpleasant smell.
Moderately offensive: Modern music is like an unpleasant smell.
Barely offensive: Modern music has one abstract property in common with an unpleasant smell, namely that they're both things that someone might come to tolerate or even enjoy through repeated exposure, despite not caring for them initially.

As for Tomasino rubbishing modern music, it's simply not there in the post under discussion. He certainly implies that there's modern music he doesn't like, but if someone did like every piece of modern music, or every flavor of ice cream for that matter, it would call their taste and discrimination into question. And his only earlier post in the same thread said only:
Originally Posted By: tomtomasino
I'm curious. What would "modern sonata form" be? Is it recognized as such, or are you simply referring to the various latter day compositions called "sonatas?"
which might have a subtext but certainly isn't savaging anything.


Well, no, I didn't say I couldn't imagine what it would take to offend you. I said I couldn't imagine what it would take for you to see that a comparison between two things had been made.

To me, if a person says "this is like that", a comparison has been made. And actually identifying every single aspect of the comparison isn't needed to see which parts are parallels - that's just the way analogies work.

I am not (well, not yet) going to go into the archives to find the examples I know are there of tomasino's rubbishing of certain modern music. Knowing that background, it is hard for me not to see it in the post under discussion here, even if it is not straightforwardly stated.

He says he won't listen in a spirit of tolerance until he gets used to the music and might even like it. Well, why not? He says doing so can bring strange results. Really? What's so strange about learning how to listen to something you don't first understand?

Well, he thinks it's like getting used to some bad smell. In other words, the music is still not any good, it's just that the listener has become inured to it.

Now, you may read that as simply expressing personal taste, but it reads to me as saying the music is disgusting.



Edited by wr (05/10/13 01:26 AM)

Top
#2079983 - 05/09/13 06:47 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: keystring]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
How about you lock it each day at noon, and unlock it at midnight, and so on? grin

Define noon and midnight. We're spread all over the globe. Every second of the day is noon and midnight somewhere in the world.

Thanks for reminding me! It's happy hour -- somewhere. Gotta go.

Top
#2079984 - 05/09/13 06:50 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

He may not have said it but the sentiment was prevalent. I love a lot of 20th century music/composers but the point is that the avant-guarde have been the bullies so its just something to keep in mind when feeling affronted


Edited by antony (05/09/13 06:52 PM)

Top
#2079985 - 05/09/13 06:54 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

He may not have said it but the sentiment was prevalent. I love a lot of 20th century music/composers but the point is that the avant-guarde have been the bullies so its just something to keep in mind when feeling affronted


That's rather a broad brush you are painting with.

Top
#2080039 - 05/09/13 09:23 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: tomasino

In the meantime, I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.



It's interesting that we're apparently supposed to make a guess about your feelings, and then respond.

If you are talking to me, I am not reacting to you personally. I have no idea of who you are. I am reacting to stuff you post here, i.e., the "content".

Of course, if you post something that insults my taste in music, you will get push-back, and it might be a little cranky. But it's not about you, it's about what you posted.

Obviously, when talking about what someone posts, there will be references to the person doing the writing. There may be references to their tone. There may be references to their thinking. But it's not "personal" in the sense that I think you mean.

Anyway, to me, it's unwise to make deals based on trust with strangers, so count me out of your little scheme. I have a number of people here on my "Ignore user" list, and you won't find me responding to their posts. It's not that hard. I didn't need to make any deal for that to happen. I didn't need to make any announcement about it. Once in a while, I might make a reference to my list. Sometimes a user will be on it for a while, and then I'll take them off for a while, and then put them back on. Or not. And once in a while, if a user on my list gets quoted in someone else's message and I really couldn't avoid reading it, I may respond indirectly. If one of them starts a thread and there are responses that interest me, I may participate without even needing to read the OP. I think the "Ignore user" thing works out pretty well.

Top
#2080074 - 05/09/13 11:20 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

He may not have said it but the sentiment was prevalent. I love a lot of 20th century music/composers but the point is that the avant-guarde have been the bullies so its just something to keep in mind when feeling affronted


That's rather a broad brush you are painting with.


It's not. You can't deny that the "modernists", in music and the visual arts, have held sway for years, and the audience as the receiver has been cowed by the stance of the Babbitts He may not have explicitly said "who cares..." but he did say the composer was a specialist and the audience needs education and exposure to understand and appreciate. This puts the onus on the audience and not the artist. He rightly decried populism but there is an enormous difference between populism and using standardized and accepted modes of communicationThen you end up with gallery shows with mattresses on the ceiling and toilet bowls etc because the artist can do whatever they want and just say the audience doesn't get it. People don't want to appear stupid so the canard gets perpetuat

Top
#2080097 - 05/10/13 12:56 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
MathGuy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 232
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: wr
Well, no, I didn't say I couldn't imagine what it would take to offend you. I said I couldn't imagine what it would take for you to see that a comparison between two things had been made.
You're right about that, of course, and I apologize for mischaracterizing what you said.

Top
#2080103 - 05/10/13 01:24 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

He may not have said it but the sentiment was prevalent. I love a lot of 20th century music/composers but the point is that the avant-guarde have been the bullies so its just something to keep in mind when feeling affronted


That's rather a broad brush you are painting with.


It's not. You can't deny that the "modernists", in music and the visual arts, have held sway for years, and the audience as the receiver has been cowed by the stance of the Babbitts He may not have explicitly said "who cares..." but he did say the composer was a specialist and the audience needs education and exposure to understand and appreciate. This puts the onus on the audience and not the artist. He rightly decried populism but there is an enormous difference between populism and using standardized and accepted modes of communicationThen you end up with gallery shows with mattresses on the ceiling and toilet bowls etc because the artist can do whatever they want and just say the audience doesn't get it. People don't want to appear stupid so the canard gets perpetuat


It is a broad brush because although there definitely were some intellectual bullies (e.g., Boulez was pretty famous as one), it was hardly a characteristic of all modernist or avant garde composers. And, as far as I know, they haven't held sway in quite a long time, probably a couple of decades at least. For example, of the composers in residence with the major orchestras in the US, I can't think of one that falls into that genre. I'm sure there are some in the composition departments some universities, but that whole "you must write strict 12-tone or get out my class" thing has been over in most places for quite a while, from what I hear.

Top
#2080107 - 05/10/13 01:30 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: MathGuy]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
Originally Posted By: wr
Well, no, I didn't say I couldn't imagine what it would take to offend you. I said I couldn't imagine what it would take for you to see that a comparison between two things had been made.
You're right about that, of course, and I apologize for mischaracterizing what you said.


No apology necessary - I figured you just misread it.

Top
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Veritune and rescaling
by kennyz
12/21/14 09:29 AM
Never thought it would end up at that instrument ...
by fatast
12/21/14 05:45 AM
Is Yelp reliable for evaluating piano stores?
by Le Chiffre
12/21/14 02:08 AM
Guide to Teaching
by Arghhh
12/21/14 12:39 AM
Making a New York Steinway sound like a Hamburg Steinway
by nphase
12/20/14 10:24 PM
Forum Stats
77375 Members
42 Forums
160033 Topics
2350135 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission