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#2080199 - 05/10/13 07:49 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7892
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


By the way, I found out that Babbitt's own title for that essay was "The Composer as Specialist".

It's funny, I used to loathe Babbitt's music, and everything I thought he stood for. I may not have made a complete 180 degree about-face on that, but it's probably around 167 degrees. At least I can listen to some of it with some pleasure, and don't think he was a complete ogre anymore.

It's interesting that Stephen Sondheim was a student of his, and says that he asked to be taught serial composition, but Babbitt wouldn't do it, saying Sondheim hadn't exhausted his tonal resources yet. So I guess he wasn't imposing his own compositional methods on his students.

I just watched this very interesting and entertaining documentary on Babbitt -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf_Zfpq3gqk

and thought Sondheim's comments were particularly interesting, especially since they aren't from within academia. Similarly, the comments of Stanley Jordan, a jazz guitarist who also studied with Babbitt, are illuminating, I think.


Edited by wr (05/10/13 08:14 AM)

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#2080218 - 05/10/13 08:39 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2451
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: tomasino
Originally Posted By: griffin2417
Originally Posted By: jotur
Originally Posted By: tomasino
...how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk


Actually, 30 years after leaving Minnesota that still remains a mystery to me smile

laugh

Cathy


I'm a Minnesota native, and I still don't get it. However, as Tomasino knows, I'm certainly not a Minnesota Norwegian laugh

Btw, please pass the collard greens!



Hi Carl,

Whatd'ya think? Maybe a bit of levity would lighten this whole thing up, and we can avert the censor's scissors. I've written a little piece to further illustrate my point about learning to like dirty socks, entitled:

The TRUTH about the perpetuation of Lutefisk eating through multiple generations of Scandinavian-Americans in Minnesota,

by Tom Foley.

Highly respected ethnologists have known, and have written for many years in their learned treatises, that many ethnic groups around the globe have special initiation rites for outsiders attempting to marry into the fold. It often revolves around revolting ethnic food.



thumb Absolutely BRILLIANT!!! laugh Tom, I don't know when I've laughed so hard at a Minnesoooota story! laugh laugh

You even managed to get in some references to Ole and Leena laugh

Xavier's family's initiation rites for outsiders attempting to marry into the fold with Chitlins had a familiar ring to it. However, my family offered a second food option if a newcomer had the nerve to say they didn't like the Chitlins. The second food option would be a steak dinner. Of course, one would have to eat at least one Chitlin to confirm they truly didn't like Chitlins. That seemed quite reasonable to Reggie, the newcomer who was about to be initiated.

Reggie started to become suspicious that it was a trick, and there wouldn't really be any steak if he ate the Chitlin. Not to worry, his beloved told him. "Cousin Alana hates Chitlins and is always served steak instead of Chitlins," his beloved assured. "See here is the steak they'll cook to your liking if you at least give one Chitlin a try!"

Reggie cautiously put the Chitlin in his mouth and he gagged. As promised, a steak dinner was served to Reggie, cousin Alana and a few other family members. Reggie thought he had gotten off easy. WRONG! "Well, looks like we got another one to eat a Chitlin for their supper rather than singing for it," proclaimed one of the family elders. The room exploded into laughter.
_________________________
Carl


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#2080259 - 05/10/13 10:21 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: antony
Those that feel offended should remember that it was the modernists who were mocking the traditionalists, and still do in academia.
Ives"Use your ears like a man"
Babbitt "who cares if you listen"
It has been the more "traditionalist " listener, and composer, who've been "the offended" in this scenario


Well said.

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2080269 - 05/10/13 10:41 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.


Actually, WR, the headline title does not mislead, as he said something very close to that in this paragraph:

"I say all this not to present a picture of a virtuous music in a sinful world, but to point up the problems of a special music in an alien and inapposite world. And so, I dare suggest that the composer would do himself and his music an immediate and eventual service by total, resolute, and voluntary withdrawal from this public world to one of private performance and electronic media, with its very real possibility of complete elimination of the public and social aspects of musical composition. By so doing, the separation between the domains would be defined beyond any possibility of confusion of categories, and the composer would be free to pursue a private life of professional achievement, as opposed to a public life of unprofessional compromise and exhibitionism."

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2080311 - 05/10/13 12:28 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: tomasino
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.


Actually, WR, the headline title does not mislead, as he said something very close to that in this paragraph:

"I say all this not to present a picture of a virtuous music in a sinful world, but to point up the problems of a special music in an alien and inapposite world. And so, I dare suggest that the composer would do himself and his music an immediate and eventual service by total, resolute, and voluntary withdrawal from this public world to one of private performance and electronic media, with its very real possibility of complete elimination of the public and social aspects of musical composition. By so doing, the separation between the domains would be defined beyond any possibility of confusion of categories, and the composer would be free to pursue a private life of professional achievement, as opposed to a public life of unprofessional compromise and exhibitionism."

Tomasino


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence

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#2080330 - 05/10/13 01:06 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

In the meantime, I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.



It's interesting that we're apparently supposed to make a guess about your feelings, and then respond.

If you are talking to me, I am not reacting to you personally. I have no idea of who you are. I am reacting to stuff you post here, i.e., the "content".

Of course, if you post something that insults my taste in music, you will get push-back, and it might be a little cranky. But it's not about you, it's about what you posted.

Obviously, when talking about what someone posts, there will be references to the person doing the writing. There may be references to their tone. There may be references to their thinking. But it's not "personal" in the sense that I think you mean.

Anyway, to me, it's unwise to make deals based on trust with strangers, so count me out of your little scheme. I have a number of people here on my "Ignore user" list, and you won't find me responding to their posts. It's not that hard. I didn't need to make any deal for that to happen. I didn't need to make any announcement about it. Once in a while, I might make a reference to my list. Sometimes a user will be on it for a while, and then I'll take them off for a while, and then put them back on. Or not. And once in a while, if a user on my list gets quoted in someone else's message and I really couldn't avoid reading it, I may respond indirectly. If one of them starts a thread and there are responses that interest me, I may participate without even needing to read the OP. I think the "Ignore user" thing works out pretty well.


WR, there's no need to guess my feelings. I'll make them even clearer. You may not mean it personally, I wouldn't know that for a fact--but I take it personally, and I do know that for a fact. I have proposed a private truce, and if one of us fails to live up to it and does respond to the other, everyone will know they peeked and broke the truce, as the other will be able to post the deal that was made. This is not a deal "based on trust between strangers. Within the context of Piano World, we know each other quite well. And "trust." It's not that either. The idea is that the threat of public embarrassment will enforce the deal. As to the problem of finding ourselves participating on the same post, and being quoted, just give me a little space. Take the time to write around me bit. I'll do the same.

So have a heart. If not for yourself, do it for me.

Push the button and let me know, and I'll push the button and let you know, and I will be relieved of all the feelings that you are attacking me. It would be a real favor to me, even a gift. It would loosen the hesitancy I feel in contributing to Piano World, because I would then be able to more freely participate in the forums, both in content and in terms of allowing some of my personality to hang out a bit--to be funny, to be wry, to be enjoyable, and maybe even a little passionate at times--without feeling I must spend so much time writing as cautiously and carefully as I feel I must. It makes me feel hobbled in my personal style. Afterall, this is an online forum, not an academic forum. We're all people with personalities. I'd like to be a little looser in my participation. I hate participating with the attitude that I must "give as good as I get." I just loathe it.

And I'd rather participate more on Piano World, not less, and there are any number of Piano World participants who would like to hear more from me. They like my posts. They find them "interesting," "always on point," "good content," "thoughtful"--they have said so both openly and in private messages--but the fear of attack, intentional on your part, or not, inhibits me.

Please. What does it cost you?

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2080339 - 05/10/13 01:16 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: tomasino

Please. What does it cost you?
It costs a very solid idea: That neither of you are ready to give up, stop fighting, change your minds even a little, or assume (even in fake) that you are wrong!

That goes if wr accepts the iggy invitation! Otherwise this leaves you and your suggestion!

You see, you should be stronger than that: Just ignore him! I tend to do that with a few people, but I don't need the ignore button (and btw, I don't think that I've caused any heated hatred here, except for with people who are long gone now (Saul comes to mind, for example)...

Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". It just doesn't happen.

But atonal music? People don't get it (even though nice people create nice threads and get nice replies... Take a look at Joels thread for example).
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2080346 - 05/10/13 01:30 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: tomasino
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.


Actually, WR, the headline title does not mislead, as he said something very close to that in this paragraph:

"I say all this not to present a picture of a virtuous music in a sinful world, but to point up the problems of a special music in an alien and inapposite world. And so, I dare suggest that the composer would do himself and his music an immediate and eventual service by total, resolute, and voluntary withdrawal from this public world to one of private performance and electronic media, with its very real possibility of complete elimination of the public and social aspects of musical composition. By so doing, the separation between the domains would be defined beyond any possibility of confusion of categories, and the composer would be free to pursue a private life of professional achievement, as opposed to a public life of unprofessional compromise and exhibitionism."

Tomasino

Actually, I agree with the content of this quote. I believe all artists (composers, writers, painters, sculptors, etc.) should create only what pleases them, and should never allow public desires or expectation to intrude on this creative process. Deliberately pandering to public taste for the purpose of fame or fortune is the very definition of "schlock art", or "kitsch".

But this relationship between the artist and the public is a double-edged sword. While the artist may (and IMO should) ignore the collective public taste during the creative process, that same artist should also have zero expectations that this same ignored public will then embrace the final product. I commend Babbitt in the above quote for recognizing this, because he called for total "withdrawal from this public world to one of private performance and electronic media." So he seems to extend the separation beyond the "creation" phase. But I think many composers find the thought of "public" acceptance so tantalizing, they simply cannot resist the "world premiere", only to discover that what they thought was pleasing did not please. The result is often a dejected, embittered composer, who blames the ignorant, unscrubbed masses for his failure.

This relationship between composer and public is a fascinating one, and is discussed in greater depth in Henry Pleasants' famous (or should I say "infamous") book, "The Agony of Modern Music", published in 1955. I know the book is considered outright heresy in most music circles, and much of it is indeed "rubbish" (especially his prognostications), but there was also much that I agreed with. However, I would NOT recommend this book to: wr, currawong, or Nikolas. grin

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#2080469 - 05/10/13 06:39 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7892
Originally Posted By: antony


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence


Except that it wasn't a "modernist shift". Try Gesualdo. Beethoven wrote plenty of advanced music that was "intellectual indulgence" intended for musically literate connoisseurs, and he would be mightily offended at the idea of composer as servant.


Edited by wr (05/10/13 06:39 PM)

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#2080544 - 05/10/13 11:16 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence


Except that it wasn't a "modernist shift". Try Gesualdo. Beethoven wrote plenty of advanced music that was "intellectual indulgence" intended for musically literate connoisseurs, and he would be mightily offended at the idea of composer as servant.

Yes, you could say Beethoven was the first modernist, and he may have been offended but he was still a human being and that doesn't make him right. I don't mean servant in the literal sense as in one who would carry the luggage, but one who's duty is to *serve the spirit and function of art which had always been to put people in accord with their world during their time.
People love to reference Beethoven's late works as a means of supporting the idea of "too difficult at first listen position" but there are many many moments of those late works which are highly accessible. I would argue that the waldstein is as ethereal transcendent and simultaneously more accessible than the last trio of sonatas or the late string quartets.

Speaking of Babbitt, I took a class with a protege of his who writes fractal music and he didn't like late Beethoven and said it was "weird"
I think it was a short work by Soloman that did a lot to perpetuate the late Beethoven as mystic idea

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#2080545 - 05/10/13 11:22 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Nikolas]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR

"Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". "

I don't understand your point. Nobody says those things about Chopin because he isn't any of those things


Edited by antony (05/10/13 11:37 PM)

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#2080623 - 05/11/13 06:18 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7892
Originally Posted By: tomasino
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

In the meantime, I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.



It's interesting that we're apparently supposed to make a guess about your feelings, and then respond.

If you are talking to me, I am not reacting to you personally. I have no idea of who you are. I am reacting to stuff you post here, i.e., the "content".

Of course, if you post something that insults my taste in music, you will get push-back, and it might be a little cranky. But it's not about you, it's about what you posted.

Obviously, when talking about what someone posts, there will be references to the person doing the writing. There may be references to their tone. There may be references to their thinking. But it's not "personal" in the sense that I think you mean.

Anyway, to me, it's unwise to make deals based on trust with strangers, so count me out of your little scheme. I have a number of people here on my "Ignore user" list, and you won't find me responding to their posts. It's not that hard. I didn't need to make any deal for that to happen. I didn't need to make any announcement about it. Once in a while, I might make a reference to my list. Sometimes a user will be on it for a while, and then I'll take them off for a while, and then put them back on. Or not. And once in a while, if a user on my list gets quoted in someone else's message and I really couldn't avoid reading it, I may respond indirectly. If one of them starts a thread and there are responses that interest me, I may participate without even needing to read the OP. I think the "Ignore user" thing works out pretty well.


WR, there's no need to guess my feelings. I'll make them even clearer. You may not mean it personally, I wouldn't know that for a fact--but I take it personally, and I do know that for a fact. I have proposed a private truce, and if one of us fails to live up to it and does respond to the other, everyone will know they peeked and broke the truce, as the other will be able to post the deal that was made. This is not a deal "based on trust between strangers. Within the context of Piano World, we know each other quite well. And "trust." It's not that either. The idea is that the threat of public embarrassment will enforce the deal. As to the problem of finding ourselves participating on the same post, and being quoted, just give me a little space. Take the time to write around me bit. I'll do the same.

So have a heart. If not for yourself, do it for me.

Push the button and let me know, and I'll push the button and let you know, and I will be relieved of all the feelings that you are attacking me. It would be a real favor to me, even a gift. It would loosen the hesitancy I feel in contributing to Piano World, because I would then be able to more freely participate in the forums, both in content and in terms of allowing some of my personality to hang out a bit--to be funny, to be wry, to be enjoyable, and maybe even a little passionate at times--without feeling I must spend so much time writing as cautiously and carefully as I feel I must. It makes me feel hobbled in my personal style. Afterall, this is an online forum, not an academic forum. We're all people with personalities. I'd like to be a little looser in my participation. I hate participating with the attitude that I must "give as good as I get." I just loathe it.

And I'd rather participate more on Piano World, not less, and there are any number of Piano World participants who would like to hear more from me. They like my posts. They find them "interesting," "always on point," "good content," "thoughtful"--they have said so both openly and in private messages--but the fear of attack, intentional on your part, or not, inhibits me.

Please. What does it cost you?



It costs me the freedom to participate here as I want. Everything you talk about seems to be your problem, not mine. I don't "attack" you - but I will attack things in posts that I think are worth attacking. If you can't live with that, too bad. Most people here can and do, without getting all paranoid about people jumping out of ditches and attacking them. To me, you sound as if you think you deserve some special kind of pass - I don't agree.

So, no, I'm not going to play your game and be your codependent here. You seem confused about how we do the "Ignore" here - it's on an individual basis, each on their own, on their own volition, putting people on and taking them off whenever one wants. Here, I'll show you how it's done...

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#2080639 - 05/11/13 06:57 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7892
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence


Except that it wasn't a "modernist shift". Try Gesualdo. Beethoven wrote plenty of advanced music that was "intellectual indulgence" intended for musically literate connoisseurs, and he would be mightily offended at the idea of composer as servant.

Yes, you could say Beethoven was the first modernist, and he may have been offended but he was still a human being and that doesn't make him right. I don't mean servant in the literal sense as in one who would carry the luggage, but one who's duty is to *serve the spirit and function of art which had always been to put people in accord with their world during their time.
People love to reference Beethoven's late works as a means of supporting the idea of "too difficult at first listen position" but there are many many moments of those late works which are highly accessible. I would argue that the waldstein is as ethereal transcendent and simultaneously more accessible than the last trio of sonatas or the late string quartets.

Speaking of Babbitt, I took a class with a protege of his who writes fractal music and he didn't like late Beethoven and said it was "weird"
I think it was a short work by Soloman that did a lot to perpetuate the late Beethoven as mystic idea


But what makes your version of the purpose of art the right one? Or the only one?

Or, what if those artists who are doing art as "pure fancy and intellectual indulgence" are in fact "putting people in accord with their world during their time". They may not be affecting all people in that way, but then, no artist does. If Babbitt's music in some way puts me in accord with my world (and I think it does), then I think it has served that higher purpose, according to your specifications.

I thought of some more examples of pre-Modernist purists than just Gesualdo and Beethoven, after I posted. One of the more interesting ones is Liszt, who often enough is accused of the exact opposite of of art for its own sake - which is that he unashamedly pandered to the masses with empty virtuosic bombast (a view I don't subscribe to, BTW). What's fascinating is that by the end of his life, he was composing music that was so utterly detached from anything anyone around him understood that not even Wagner, his buddy in "Music of the Future", could figure out what he was up to.

Liszt's friend Alkan (who was also a friend and neighbor of Chopin) wrote a large amount of music that was so unusual and private that it rarely, if ever, reached "the man on the street", but some his colleagues knew about it. Anton Rubinstein even dedicated his 5th piano concerto to Alkan.

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#2080762 - 05/11/13 11:20 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 353
Originally Posted By: tomasino
I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.


Am I vain, or is this song about me? Am I the one crouching deep in the "ditch", waiting to "pounce on" you? Well, things have been busy here in the ditch lately, so although I saw this thread a couple days ago, I've had no time to respond until now.

Before I get around to your proposal, I'd like to make a few things clear. First, if this is indeed about me, your last sentence above is baffling. We have not come to any sort of point. It's just you. I'm genuinely surprised that a handful of my responses to your think pieces could help drive you away from here. I can recall 4 or 5 responses, maybe I've forgotten 2 or 3, but you've accumulated 2,000+ posts. That's hardly restraining order material.

Also, my responses (before this one) have always been exclusively about the content of your posts, nothing else.

I did not take offense to your dirty sock analogy. Though from time to time I can be easily irritated, I'm not easily offended. I did, to use wr's phrase, "take exception" to the analogy, and my response clearly explains why, but in general, I don't care whether any particular person likes any particular kind of music. It's true that many passionate deriders of "modern atonal" music (not you) are almost completely unfamiliar with it, but I've grown accustomed to that.

Regarding your proposal, I don't care whether you use the Ignore feature on me. I won't agree to use it on you, because I don't need it, and because this is my internet too. However, if this is important to you, I will be happy to refrain from responding to any of your posts, unless they are directed specifically at me. I admire wr's principled stance on the matter, but I won't adopt it myself, only because it doesn't feel so good to have someone attributing his disappearance to me (among others), even if I don't consider myself to be at fault.

So there you go. I might read 'em, but I won't write back. I hope that's good enough.

Best regards,
LP

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#2080820 - 05/11/13 12:44 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 136
In a public internet discussion forum that is unrelated to academia, in which almost all expression is uncredentialed and anonymous, I am astonished that some people take themselves so seriously. It's grandiose and surreal.

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#2080870 - 05/11/13 02:06 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 578
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: antony

"Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". "

I don't understand your point. Nobody says those things about Chopin because he isn't any of those things

Chopin is not popular? That's not the impression I get when reading this forum.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
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#2080923 - 05/11/13 04:35 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
OK. No takers to the deal. That closes that avenue. I don't know how to respond at this point. That's just too bad, and I feel badly about it.

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2080928 - 05/11/13 04:39 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: antony

"Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". "

I don't understand your point. Nobody says those things about Chopin because he isn't any of those things
If I may start off with an advice: Try to quote properly, so people know who you're quoting... (in this case it was me).

The point is that if you were to see such a thread, all Chopin lovers (including you?) would be angry, furious and jumping up and down. But if the same thing happens with contemporary music, the minute someone stands up for the music, he's weird, he's trying to push down "your" (not personally speaking) "our" aesthetics and so on...
_________________________
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#2080942 - 05/11/13 04:59 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 353
Originally Posted By: tomasino
OK. No takers to the deal. That closes that avenue. I don't know how to respond at this point. That's just too bad, and I feel badly about it.

Tomasino


Um, I just offered not to respond to any of your posts. That's not enough? Are you saying that you won't be comfortable posting here if you think I might be reading your stuff, down here in my ditch, and disagreeing with you? Now I don't know how to respond. I will say that I have enjoyed some of your posts here over the years. I usually take the trouble to read the things you write.

By the way, a "deal" is an arrangement wherein two or more parties each get something they want, in exchange for something else. What you put up was a request, not a deal. And I offered to comply with that request, or at least the part of it that I assumed was important to you, solely out of consideration for your feelings.

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#2080961 - 05/11/13 05:34 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4826
Loc: USA
So let me get this straight. Tomasino believe he has feuds with certain people on PW but those people do not feel mutually about it? Also, what's all this talk about an agreement to add eachother to their ignore lists?! That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

I haven't been following this thread at all so I apologize if this post seems rather random or out of flow with the rest of you.

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#2080980 - 05/11/13 06:11 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Lemon Pledge]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5265
I'm beginning to wonder if I'm on anyone's "Ignore" list. That would make me feel important - that I've managed to upset or annoy somebody enough to want to do that grin.

How would I know? Would I care?

But how would I know whether I'd care, if I don't know? wink
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2081029 - 05/11/13 08:13 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: bennevis]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7892
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I'm beginning to wonder if I'm on anyone's "Ignore" list. That would make me feel important - that I've managed to upset or annoy somebody enough to want to do that grin.

How would I know? Would I care?

But how would I know whether I'd care, if I don't know? wink


You don't know for certain unless they announce it in some fashion. Generally, if you are responding to a users' posts but they never respond to yours, that's a clue.

I think I'm on some lists, but don't really know. It's no big deal (and it doesn't make me feel important - it doesn't make me feel much of anything, actually). I'd much rather people not read my posts than be continually annoyed by them. Sometimes I encourage them to put me on their list, if it seems the smart thing to do.

I wish the forum software would have the option for more complete ignorance (is that the right usage?). It's nice when you just don't see any indication of an ignored user's posts, if for no other reason that it reduced clutter on the screen. And the toggle display function seems to be a bugaboo for some - maybe that should go away.

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#2081037 - 05/11/13 08:36 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6370
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: wr

I wish the forum software would have the option for more complete ignorance (is that the right usage?).

I believe there's already plenty of that in the world. grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2081046 - 05/11/13 09:00 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: JoelW]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
So let me get this straight. Tomasino believe he has feuds with certain people on PW but those people do not feel mutually about it? Also, what's all this talk about an agreement to add eachother to their ignore lists?! That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

I haven't been following this thread at all so I apologize if this post seems rather random or out of flow with the rest of you.

First of all, Joel, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! yippie

Second of all, yes, you do have it straight. Maybe one of the strangest dialogues I've ever read on PW.

Since the "Ignore" button can be used by anyone at anytime without announcing it, there's absolutely no reason to announce it other than to insult the other person. It serves no other purpose than to announce to your intended target that you're using it. And guess what? Even then, there's no proof at all that it really IS being used. crazy crazy

Reminds me of what we did as kids. When our playmates said nasty and evil things, we'd cover our ears with our hands, close our eyes, and yell at the top of our lungs, "I can't see you! I can't hear you! Ha, ha, I can't hear a single thing you're saying!"

Is this where we have arrived at PW??

Frankly, I can't imagine ever wanting to use "Ignore". There is no one at PW that I would ever want to ignore. Many times I've read a post that I found silly, irritating, or downright offensive one day, and then read a very thoughtful or insightful post the very next day from the very same person. Such is the nature of being human.

None of us are saints. We cannot say everything perfectly every day. But we all have something to say, and if we cannot say it right on Saturday, then maybe on Tuesday. grin


Edited by Old Man (05/11/13 09:35 PM)

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#2081053 - 05/11/13 09:15 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: carey]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: wr

I wish the forum software would have the option for more complete ignorance (is that the right usage?).

I believe there's already plenty of that in the world. grin

thumb thumb LMAO!!

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#2081066 - 05/11/13 09:51 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19798
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: wr

I wish the forum software would have the option for more complete ignorance (is that the right usage?).

I believe there's already plenty of that in the world. grin

thumb thumb LMAO!!

Darn right ha ....and IMO we learn from this that another noun form is needed for the current meaning.
I think "ignortion" would seem to be best. grin

I've never used the formal "Ignore" thing either, but as some people have said, we are capable of ignoring whatever we want without using that thing. I've been "honored" by a few members who have announced that they've put me on Ignore, usually with my encouragement and enthusiasm ha ....and then usually, to my disappointment, they would reply to me some more anyway, saying that they had "toggled" my posts.

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#2081081 - 05/11/13 10:50 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4826
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: JoelW
So let me get this straight. Tomasino believe he has feuds with certain people on PW but those people do not feel mutually about it? Also, what's all this talk about an agreement to add eachother to their ignore lists?! That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

I haven't been following this thread at all so I apologize if this post seems rather random or out of flow with the rest of you.

First of all, Joel, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! yippie

Second of all, yes, you do have it straight. Maybe one of the strangest dialogues I've ever read on PW.

Since the "Ignore" button can be used by anyone at anytime without announcing it, there's absolutely no reason to announce it other than to insult the other person. It serves no other purpose than to announce to your intended target that you're using it. And guess what? Even then, there's no proof at all that it really IS being used. crazy crazy

Reminds me of what we did as kids. When our playmates said nasty and evil things, we'd cover our ears with our hands, close our eyes, and yell at the top of our lungs, "I can't see you! I can't hear you! Ha, ha, I can't hear a single thing you're saying!"

Is this where we have arrived at PW??

Frankly, I can't imagine ever wanting to use "Ignore". There is no one at PW that I would ever want to ignore. Many times I've read a post that I found silly, irritating, or downright offensive one day, and then read a very thoughtful or insightful post the very next day from the very same person. Such is the nature of being human.

None of us are saints. We cannot say everything perfectly every day. But we all have something to say, and if we cannot say it right on Saturday, then maybe on Tuesday. grin


Thanks, Old Man. smile

And I pretty much agree with everything in this post.

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#2081134 - 05/12/13 12:56 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence


Except that it wasn't a "modernist shift". Try Gesualdo. Beethoven wrote plenty of advanced music that was "intellectual indulgence" intended for musically literate connoisseurs, and he would be mightily offended at the idea of composer as servant.

Yes, you could say Beethoven was the first modernist, and he may have been offended but he was still a human being and that doesn't make him right. I don't mean servant in the literal sense as in one who would carry the luggage, but one who's duty is to *serve the spirit and function of art which had always been to put people in accord with their world during their time.
People love to reference Beethoven's late works as a means of supporting the idea of "too difficult at first listen position" but there are many many moments of those late works which are highly accessible. I would argue that the waldstein is as ethereal transcendent and simultaneously more accessible than the last trio of sonatas or the late string quartets.

Speaking of Babbitt, I took a class with a protege of his who writes fractal music and he didn't like late Beethoven and said it was "weird"
I think it was a short work by Soloman that did a lot to perpetuate the late Beethoven as mystic idea


But what makes your version of the purpose of art the right one? Or the only one?

Or, what if those artists who are doing art as "pure fancy and intellectual indulgence" are in fact "putting people in accord with their world during their time". They may not be affecting all people in that way, but then, no artist does. If Babbitt's music in some way puts me in accord with my world (and I think it does), then I think it has served that higher purpose, according to your specifications.

I thought of some more examples of pre-Modernist purists than just Gesualdo and Beethoven, after I posted. One of the more interesting ones is Liszt, who often enough is accused of the exact opposite of of art for its own sake - which is that he unashamedly pandered to the masses with empty virtuosic bombast (a view I don't subscribe to, BTW). What's fascinating is that by the end of his life, he was composing music that was so utterly detached from anything anyone around him understood that not even Wagner, his buddy in "Music of the Future", could figure out what he was up to.

Liszt's friend Alkan (who was also a friend and neighbor of Chopin) wrote a large amount of music that was so unusual and private that it rarely, if ever, reached "the man on the street", but some his colleagues knew about it. Anton Rubinstein even dedicated his 5th piano concerto to Alkan.


It's not "my definition" of art, it's an historical fact. Art without function is a recent development. Great works of transcendent beauty were born out of function: Sistine chapel, the Pieta, Bach's Masses.

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#2081214 - 05/12/13 06:29 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomtomasino]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: tomtomasino
I'm still around, still thinking sometimes contentious thoughts about music and related topics, and wondering if I should share them with you. It's a serious question.

Over the years I've become a target for several piano world participants who seem to be laying in wait for me whenever I submit a post. They jump up and pounce on me. I've taken one or two of them on from time to time and held my own pretty well--but to no avail. They just lay lower in the ditch. It's not fun, and it can be very time consuming. I end up writing so carefully and slowly, trying very hard to cause no offense--and still be clear in my thought--but cause offense I do. Some of my ideas may be a bubble off center, I know, and sometimes even contentious. Still, I feel we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense. And so, a number of months ago when I was pounced upon in just such a matter, I simply decided to let Piano World go for awhile.

My good friend Daniel, more familiar to you all as Ridicosolamente, and who I got to know while he was doing grad work here in Minnesota, sent me an email and attached this thread. Thank you, Daniel. It made me think maybe I should let my irritation with those few participants go for awhile, as I have gotten a good deal out of sharing ideas with many of you over quite a few years. I miss that. So, I'll cautiously take a step in and see what happens.

Tomasino


To the question initiating this thread, "where is Tomasino?"--Tomasino is gone.
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2081262 - 05/12/13 08:57 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: tomasino
To the question initiating this thread, "where is Tomasino?"--Tomasino is gone.
This is almost a pity. While I will miss your posts, I'm not happy that you decided to attempt to silence others towards you in order to stay and if so you are gone. It almost feels like a blackmail... frown

Sorry
_________________________
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