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#2078023 - 05/06/13 01:06 AM Where is tomasino
Ferdinand Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 936
Loc: California
It's been a long time since tomasino posted on this forum. Has anyone been in touch with him?

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#2078035 - 05/06/13 01:15 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
Nope. Why?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2078036 - 05/06/13 01:16 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
He seems to leave for long stretches. I remember him coming back a few weeks ago, after some months, but then staying only very briefly.

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#2078044 - 05/06/13 01:37 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Ferdinand Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 936
Loc: California
Polyphonist: Because he is a long-time contributor here, and I like reading his posts, so personally I would consider it a loss if he left PW permanantly.

Mark C: Thanks for that perspective.

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#2078047 - 05/06/13 01:46 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Ferdinand
Polyphonist: Because he is a long-time contributor here, and I like reading his posts, so personally I would consider it a loss if he left PW permanantly.

I see...

Well, he's pretty erratic in his posting patterns, from what I can see.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2078048 - 05/06/13 01:49 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
"Erratic" isn't fair....

He comes and goes, but erratic he ain't. smile

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#2078050 - 05/06/13 01:50 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
Is it not politically correct? ha

Seriously though, why isn't it "fair"?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2078051 - 05/06/13 01:51 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
*through clenched teeth* stop...editing...your...posts...mark. ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2078054 - 05/06/13 02:00 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
hujidong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Hawaii
What's fair? o.o

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#2078173 - 05/06/13 08:20 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Polyphonist]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Is it not politically correct? ha

Seriously though, why isn't it "fair"?

I'm curious about something, Polyphonist. You've racked up over 1,000 posts in just two months, mostly, I gather, by totally gratuitous posts like the four that you've already made to this thread. The topic doesn't even seem to concern you at all. What's up with that?

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#2078188 - 05/06/13 08:51 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Goomer Piles]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6071
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
You've racked up over 1,000 posts in just two months, mostly, I gather, by totally gratuitous posts like the four that you've already made to this thread.


I think he's a sock puppet for...
Click to reveal..
MarkC
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2078260 - 05/06/13 11:19 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
If I were, then one of us would have gotten kicked out long ago. grin

What concern of yours is it that I make a lot of posts? You're not being forced to read them.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2078281 - 05/06/13 12:06 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
hujidong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Hawaii
They just happen to be there and we need to scroll through to get to the real goods :P

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#2078297 - 05/06/13 12:40 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
I think he's a sock puppet for...
Click to reveal..
MarkC

Yeah right.

Folks, I think we can assume he's kidding. Although with Damon you never really know....

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#2078305 - 05/06/13 01:00 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Mark_C]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3714
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I think he's a sock puppet for...
Click to reveal..
MarkC

Yeah right.

Folks, I think we can assume he's kidding. Although with Damon you never really know....

Of course he's joking. The substance of the joke is: You have a lot of posts. Poly has a lot of posts. ha.

I think the important metric for deciding who wins the Piano Forums isn't total number of posts, but total amount of meaningful content posted. That puts folks like SlatterFan in the running...


-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2078334 - 05/06/13 01:51 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
I am actually looking forward to reading tomasino's posts here especially because he seemed to have been posting "meaningful contents".
_________________________
Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces

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#2078336 - 05/06/13 02:00 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Polyphonist]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
If I were, then one of us would have gotten kicked out long ago. grin

What concern of yours is it that I make a lot of posts? You're not being forced to read them.

What concern was it of yours that other members were concerned over the absence of a poster who actually posts useful content?

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#2078337 - 05/06/13 02:09 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1456
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Ferdinand
It's been a long time since tomasino posted on this forum. Has anyone been in touch with him?
He (somewhat) recently changee his username. Very valuable contributor. Hope all is well with him.

-Daniel
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#2078342 - 05/06/13 02:16 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Polyphonist]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
*through clenched teeth* stop...editing...your...posts...mark. ha


It's not fair that he does that, right? laugh

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#2078352 - 05/06/13 02:29 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Orange Soda King]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
.


Edited by Mark_C (05/06/13 02:30 PM)
Edit Reason: deleting everything I've ever said about anything

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#2078355 - 05/06/13 02:32 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Mark_C]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3846
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
.


Re-set your post count to zero, too, Mark.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2078363 - 05/06/13 02:40 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3846
Loc: Rockford, IL
I recall a post by tomasino a week or two ago, under his new name. I don't recall what was the new name, but it was something close to "tomasino." I like reading his thoughtful posts, too.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2078372 - 05/06/13 02:46 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Cinnamonbear]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1716
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
I recall a post by tomasino a week or two ago, under his new name. I don't recall what was the new name, but it was something close to "tomasino." I like reading his thoughtful posts, too.


http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2031157/tomasino%20is%20back.html#Post2031157
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#2078382 - 05/06/13 02:59 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Goomer Piles]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
If I were, then one of us would have gotten kicked out long ago. grin

What concern of yours is it that I make a lot of posts? You're not being forced to read them.

What concern was it of yours that other members were concerned over the absence of a poster who actually posts useful content?

I think I've posted a fair amount of useful content, considering I've only been here two months.

What is your definition of "useful content"?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2078386 - 05/06/13 03:06 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Polyphonist]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6215
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
If I were, then one of us would have gotten kicked out long ago. grin

What concern of yours is it that I make a lot of posts? You're not being forced to read them.

What concern was it of yours that other members were concerned over the absence of a poster who actually posts useful content?

I think I've posted a fair amount of useful content, considering I've only been here two months.

What is your definition of "useful content"?


500 words or longer !!! grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2078430 - 05/06/13 04:18 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Cinnamonbear]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
.
Edited by Mark_C (05/06/13 02:30 PM)
Edit Reason: deleting everything I've ever said about anything

Re-set your post count to zero, too, Mark.

Mark... please, no! The processors will overheat. You'll bring PW servers to their knees. Small batches only, please. grin

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#2078601 - 05/06/13 11:36 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
If you average out Mark's posts and how long he's been here, you get 14 posts every single day since he's joined.

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#2078604 - 05/06/13 11:42 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
Hey, this is supposed to be about Tomasino....

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#2078607 - 05/06/13 11:46 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Hey, this is supposed to be about Tomasino....


This your fifteenth post today. You're on a roll. smile

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#2078616 - 05/07/13 12:17 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
tomtomasino Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 10
I'm still around, still thinking sometimes contentious thoughts about music and related topics, and wondering if I should share them with you. It's a serious question.

Over the years I've become a target for several piano world participants who seem to be laying in wait for me whenever I submit a post. They jump up and pounce on me. I've taken one or two of them on from time to time and held my own pretty well--but to no avail. They just lay lower in the ditch. It's not fun, and it can be very time consuming. I end up writing so carefully and slowly, trying very hard to cause no offense--and still be clear in my thought--but cause offense I do. Some of my ideas may be a bubble off center, I know, and sometimes even contentious. Still, I feel we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense. And so, a number of months ago when I was pounced upon in just such a matter, I simply decided to let Piano World go for awhile.

My good friend Daniel, more familiar to you all as Ridicosolamente, and who I got to know while he was doing grad work here in Minnesota, sent me an email and attached this thread. Thank you, Daniel. It made me think maybe I should let my irritation with those few participants go for awhile, as I have gotten a good deal out of sharing ideas with many of you over quite a few years. I miss that. So, I'll cautiously take a step in and see what happens.

Tomasino

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#2078618 - 05/07/13 12:21 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomtomasino]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
Tomasino -- Glad you're reading us, and glad to see you visiting back. And BTW I certainly hope I'm not one of the people you're worried about. We did have a little 'thing' a few years ago (misunderstanding), when I was new and before we knew each other at all, but I hope that's basically long forgotten. I've always viewed you as a great and valuable member, and hope you'll be visiting more often.

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#2078630 - 05/07/13 01:17 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Great to see you post. Missed you! Hope everything is well smile

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#2078631 - 05/07/13 01:22 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5903
Loc: Down Under
I'm glad to see you around, too. Always read your posts, contentious or otherwise. smile
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#2078684 - 05/07/13 07:14 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomtomasino]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: tomtomasino


Over the years I've become a target for several piano world participants who seem to be laying in wait for me whenever I submit a post. They jump up and pounce on me. I've taken one or two of them on from time to time and held my own pretty well--but to no avail. They just lay lower in the ditch. It's not fun, and it can be very time consuming. I end up writing so carefully and slowly, trying very hard to cause no offense--and still be clear in my thought--but cause offense I do. Some of my ideas may be a bubble off center, I know, and sometimes even contentious. Still, I feel we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense. And so, a number of months ago when I was pounced upon in just such a matter, I simply decided to let Piano World go for awhile.



Oh, please, cue the violins....

You were "pounced on" because you came up with an elaborate insult to a number of us, comparing our musical taste to some deluded acquired taste for the smell of dirty socks. And the response to that insult was entirely appropriate.

If you can dish it out, but can't take it, maybe it is better not to participate in an open forum like this. Maybe your own blog, where you can delete responses you don't like before they go public, would be more appropriate.

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#2078699 - 05/07/13 07:57 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11572
Loc: Canada
Curious about the socks, I did a search and found these incidents:

- Tea tastes like hot water strained through dirty socks.

- Would leaf blowers in the house pick up dirty socks?

- One member’s dog loves dirty socks.

- Life without a man means no dirty socks to pick up.

- Opinions are like dirty socks: everyone has a few and they stink.

- Valerian smells like dirty socks.

- Dirty socks are a cure for concert conversations.

- Getting used to new music and tolerating it can be like getting used to the smell of dirty socks.

Conclusion. People who play piano seem to have a thing about socks. Is it the pedal?



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#2078706 - 05/07/13 08:14 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: keystring]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: keystring

- Getting used to new music and tolerating it can be like getting used to the smell of dirty socks.



If that's what it like for you, well, fine.

But don't project it onto others as if they are under some delusion that causes them to like the smell of dirty socks.



Edited by wr (05/07/13 08:42 AM)

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#2078771 - 05/07/13 11:05 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1716
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Welcome back, Tomasino. I don't always agree with your observations, but you always seem to have something thoughtful to say.

For what it may be worth, I'll observe that my enjoyment of this website increased considerably when I commenced very selective use of the "Ignore this User" button. Just go to the top bar, click on "User List," search for the name of the user at issue, and click the "Ignore this User" button.

I only use it currently for three users, but to be spared posts from them that are almost always pointless, argumentative, and offensive is nearly priceless.

Although I say it who shouldn't, it isn't necessary to get sucked into flame wars. For some, that's a hobby and a goal.

I'd rather read thoughts about piano from the vast majority of the wonderful users here.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#2078776 - 05/07/13 11:17 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: keystring]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: keystring
Curious about the socks, I did a search and found these incidents:

- Tea tastes like hot water strained through dirty socks.

- Would leaf blowers in the house pick up dirty socks?

- One member’s dog loves dirty socks.

- Life without a man means no dirty socks to pick up.

- Opinions are like dirty socks: everyone has a few and they stink.

- Valerian smells like dirty socks.

- Dirty socks are a cure for concert conversations.

- Getting used to new music and tolerating it can be like getting used to the smell of dirty socks.

Conclusion. People who play piano seem to have a thing about socks. Is it the pedal?

Dunno about that conclusion, given that none of those points relates to piano at all.

FWIW, valerian smells like catnip. If you make some valerian tea, be prepared for your kitties to be very interested.

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#2078780 - 05/07/13 11:24 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11572
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: wr

If that's what it like for you, well, fine.

Those were quotes. I collected every incident of "dirty sock" that has been uttered in PianoWorld by different people. I thought it was funny (like in haha) how PWers seemed to think about socks.

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#2078784 - 05/07/13 11:27 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Goomer Piles]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11572
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles

Dunno about that conclusion, given that none of those points relates to piano at all.

(sigh) Somebody complained about a comment about socks. I looked it up, and discovered that PianoWorld members seem to talk frequently about dirty socks. Every single one of those examples was something some PW member said while discussing (mostly) piano-related things. It was an attempt to lighten atmosphere.

By the way, welcome back Tomasino.

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#2078789 - 05/07/13 11:34 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: keystring]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles

Dunno about that conclusion, given that none of those points relates to piano at all.

(sigh) Somebody complained about a comment about socks. I looked it up, and discovered that PianoWorld members seem to talk frequently about dirty socks. Every single one of those examples was something some PW member said while discussing (mostly) piano-related things. It was an attempt to lighten atmosphere.

By the way, welcome back Tomasino.

My bad. I didn't know your examples were from a Piano World search. I thought they were found randomly on the web.

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#2078847 - 05/07/13 02:14 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Here is my original comment which caused so much offense:


"Minnesota Public Radio has a little catch line they like to throw in during station breaks:

'Remember, all music was once new.'

Which is true, It's hard to disagree with that. And the implication, that we should give all new music a chance is something I also agree with--for awhile. But I won't listen endlessly in the spirit of tolerance. I won't necessarily listen until I am "used to it," and am on the edge of saying "I like it."

Endless listening and endless tolerance can lead to some strange conclusions. I imagine most of us could get used to the smell of our dirty socks piled up in the bottom of our bedroom closets. After while, if our mom comes in and throws the socks in the washer, we might be left feeling that we miss that smell. Indeed, we like it.

This little cameo of how we come to 'like' things can be applied to many issues of art and taste.

I've been trying for years to come up with a better way to validate artistic expression, but I haven't quite got it yet. But I do know that I'm very wary of getting used to something by endlessly and tolerantly listening it.

TomTomasino
aka
tomasino"



I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense. The comment contains a serious observation about how we might go astray in artistically validating new music. I accuse no one specifically of ill-considered choices in the music one chooses to like. It is simply an illustration, intended as a humorous one, of the process of how our tastes change. A similar illustration would be how our tastes change in automobile styles: Honda introduces little square cars, and many people dislike them. Soon those same people get used to it, at which point they're only one step away from saying they like those little square cars. Other examples: how did we learn to like olives, or whiskey or Limberger cheese, or how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk?--it's horrible. Now that last is humor too, and maybe if one is not from Minnesota, he or she won't quite get it. But if one takes offense at that, they're looking for it. As I wrote above, "I feel we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense."

TomTomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2078851 - 05/07/13 02:28 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1716
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Completely agree, Tomasino.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#2078893 - 05/07/13 04:15 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Anyone who would actually take offense to that isn't worth talking to.

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#2078972 - 05/07/13 07:05 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5448
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: tomasino
...how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk


Actually, 30 years after leaving Minnesota that still remains a mystery to me smile

laugh

Cathy
_________________________

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#2079145 - 05/08/13 06:22 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: tomasino

I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense.


Here's the link to the entire thread in which your message is found - it is about two-thirds of the way in. Context is helpful.

If you have really have trouble understanding why people took exception to the implication that they acquired a taste in new music in a manner comparable to getting used to the smell of a pile of dirty socks, you (and others) might consider reading more of it than just your own message. Both Lemon Pledge and debrucey were quite clear about the issue.

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#2079349 - 05/08/13 02:35 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
tomasino Offline
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Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense.


Here's the link to the entire thread in which your message is found - it is about two-thirds of the way in. Context is helpful.

If you have really have trouble understanding why people took exception to the implication that they acquired a taste in new music in a manner comparable to getting used to the smell of a pile of dirty socks, you (and others) might consider reading more of it than just your own message. Both Lemon Pledge and debrucey were quite clear about the issue.



Yes, I agree with you, context often makes a difference, and should always be considered. Thank you for providing it. But I don't see it makes much difference in this case.

Consider my post in the broader context you provide: It is a stand alone comment. It is not in response to a specific post in the thread or any thread, and it is directed and addressed to no one. The only relevant context, then, is the context that follows. You and several others provide the sole context. I wrote nothing further.

May I take it from your seeming hesitancy to address the comments I made concerning the tone and intent of my post, that you are conceding my main points?: that in response to a post such as mine, "one needs to be looking for offense to take offense," and that in general, "we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense."

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2079351 - 05/08/13 02:37 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense.


Here's the link to the entire thread in which your message is found - it is about two-thirds of the way in. Context is helpful.

If you have really have trouble understanding why people took exception to the implication that they acquired a taste in new music in a manner comparable to getting used to the smell of a pile of dirty socks, you (and others) might consider reading more of it than just your own message. Both Lemon Pledge and debrucey were quite clear about the issue.

I didn't like what I read even without context. I doubt many of us live with our moms, so that whole idea was ridiculous.

It got worse with the implication that this 'little cameo' is how 'we' come to like things. Who's 'we'?

A question: can 'we' have multiple identities on this board at the same time, like tomasino and tomtomasino? That could be fun and interesting.

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#2079403 - 05/08/13 04:18 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Goomer Piles]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

I've re-read my post above several times now, and it really seems to me one needs to be looking for offense to take offense.


Here's the link to the entire thread in which your message is found - it is about two-thirds of the way in. Context is helpful.

If you have really have trouble understanding why people took exception to the implication that they acquired a taste in new music in a manner comparable to getting used to the smell of a pile of dirty socks, you (and others) might consider reading more of it than just your own message. Both Lemon Pledge and debrucey were quite clear about the issue.

I didn't like what I read even without context. I doubt many of us live with our moms, so that whole idea was ridiculous.

It got worse with the implication that this 'little cameo' is how 'we' come to like things. Who's 'we'?

A question: can 'we' have multiple identities on this board at the same time, like tomasino and tomtomasino? That could be fun and interesting.

I found nothing offensive about tomasino's original post, even with the context provided. (Maybe it's because I share his opinion, and would've been even more strident in my comments. grin )

But aside from my own opinions, I read the post several times, and found it to be as innocuous as tomasino said: An isolated comment, directed at no one in particular. He seemed to be describing his own attempts at expanding his musical horizons, but I sensed absolutely no criticism of others who may enjoy the types of music he was having difficulty with.

Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

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#2079409 - 05/08/13 04:29 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 117
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

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#2079421 - 05/08/13 04:50 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Goomer Piles]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

He used 1st person plural pronouns, like "we" and "us", so I assumed he was not setting himself above anyone else, but was talking about people like himself, who may struggle to like something that others have deemed great or profound.

But I won't belabor the point. You're obviously sticking with "offensive", so I'm not likely to persuade you otherwise. So how would you classify this particular "offense", felony or misdemeanor? Might you settle for a simple "parking violation"? laugh

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#2079430 - 05/08/13 05:02 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5220
Loc: Europe
I don't know... doesn't it feel insulting to someone who makes an effort to make a living from composing contemporary music to be compared to dirty socks!?!? Just sayin'
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#2079437 - 05/08/13 05:25 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Nikolas]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I don't know... doesn't it feel insulting to someone who makes an effort to make a living from composing contemporary music to be compared to dirty socks!?!? Just sayin'


I don't think this is quite what he's saying.

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#2079457 - 05/08/13 06:14 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: JoelW]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I don't know... doesn't it feel insulting to someone who makes an effort to make a living from composing contemporary music to be compared to dirty socks!?!? Just sayin'


I don't think this is quite what he's saying.

I don't think he was saying that at all. He was using an analogy to describe the process of trying to like something through repetition that he simply can't learn to like. I probably wouldn't have used the "dirty sock" analogy myself, and maybe that's what's really irking people. If so, then maybe forgive him for a minor rhetorical faux pas rather than inferring insult? grin

Nikolas, aren't there forms of music, or musical genres that you simply can't gravitate to? Do you like American country and western, hip-hop, heavy metal, etc.? Do you love it all, or are there certain types of music where you say, "I simply don't 'get' it"?

Well, that's where I am when it comes to 20th century classical music. I simply don't "get it". Maybe I just have very plebeian, vulgar, pedestrian musical tastes, and if so, I'm fine with that. I'm perfectly willing to concede that the problem may be with me. But I also can't force myself to like something that I don't.

And that in no way means that I am disrespectful of those who write or perform contemporary music. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who can tackle the complexities of musical composition, whether I personally relate to it or not. I don't want to speak for tomasino, but I sense that he might have a similar opinion.

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#2079463 - 05/08/13 06:39 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
jdw Offline
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Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 945
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Oy. Is it really necessary to turn this into a thread about rehashing old grievances?

I'll say welcome back to tomasino too--I've enjoyed his posts, as well as those of Nikolas and many others.

Here's hoping things will lighten up. Sun has come out after rain here in Philly . . . and after all it's May.
_________________________
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Currently working on:
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#2079479 - 05/08/13 07:37 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Exactly.

Replace "the smell of dirt socks" with "the taste of avocados" and it suddenly doesn't seem so bad.

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#2079496 - 05/08/13 08:35 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

He used 1st person plural pronouns, like "we" and "us", so I assumed he was not setting himself above anyone else, but was talking about people like himself, who may struggle to like something that others have deemed great or profound.



The way he uses the 1st person plural implies that those of us who do like the music that he doesn't like are somehow acclimatized to something distasteful and "dirty". Never once is there any suggestion that the "dirty sock" music might be actually be any good.

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#2079503 - 05/08/13 08:55 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4838
While we're pondering, let's listen to some 'dirty sock' music wink :

Harrison's Harrison's Clocks:
http://youtu.be/6sHPND4kJ10

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#2079504 - 05/08/13 08:58 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

He used 1st person plural pronouns, like "we" and "us", so I assumed he was not setting himself above anyone else, but was talking about people like himself, who may struggle to like something that others have deemed great or profound.

The way he uses the 1st person plural implies that those of us who do like the music that he doesn't like are somehow acclimatized to something distasteful and "dirty". Never once is there any suggestion that the "dirty sock" music might be actually be any good.

Aha!!

It IS about
Click to reveal..
the dirty sock business. grin

Folks, this is a tempest in a teapot. Please lighten up, and stop personalizing everything. Once in a while, it's not about you and your sensibilities. It's about taste. And every single one of us is entitled to our own taste.

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#2079537 - 05/08/13 10:22 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
Although I wouldn't put dirty socks in my soup or in any other food I eat, I didn't find his post insulting enough to re-pound on someone. If he already got pounded over his mentioning of dirty socks, continuous pounding on top of the initial pounding is unnecessary in my view.
_________________________
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Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces

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#2079542 - 05/08/13 10:41 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Clearly this was a case of hypersensitivity on the part of certain members, a disease all too common in these forums. (Actually, ALL internet forums.)

'Clearly' this is a case of any number of people acting like their opinions are universal and unfallible, a very common 'disease'. Treating adults like children whose moms pickup their dirty socks is infantilizing and insulting to me.

He used 1st person plural pronouns, like "we" and "us", so I assumed he was not setting himself above anyone else, but was talking about people like himself, who may struggle to like something that others have deemed great or profound.

The way he uses the 1st person plural implies that those of us who do like the music that he doesn't like are somehow acclimatized to something distasteful and "dirty". Never once is there any suggestion that the "dirty sock" music might be actually be any good.

Aha!!

It IS about
Click to reveal..
the dirty sock business. grin

Folks, this is a tempest in a teapot. Please lighten up, and stop personalizing everything. Once in a while, it's not about you and your sensibilities. It's about taste. And every single one of us is entitled to our own taste.


You just don't get it, probably because you don't care about the music in question.

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#2079556 - 05/08/13 11:18 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5220
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Nikolas, aren't there forms of music, or musical genres that you simply can't gravitate to? Do you like American country and western, hip-hop, heavy metal, etc.? Do you love it all, or are there certain types of music where you say, "I simply don't 'get' it"?
Of course there are! But try to find one post where I show disrespect in such a way to those genres and get back to me!

Quote:
Well, that's where I am when it comes to 20th century classical music. I simply don't "get it". Maybe I just have very plebeian, vulgar, pedestrian musical tastes, and if so, I'm fine with that. I'm perfectly willing to concede that the problem may be with me. But I also can't force myself to like something that I don't.
Sure thing and no problem. In fact when I apply for a gig for various jobs (piano bar, etc) I do stress that I know very little jazz and that it's not something that I enjoy playing, or listening... But that's quite a different thing that going about dirty socks and moms and the such, right?

Quote:
And that in no way means that I am disrespectful of those who write or perform contemporary music. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who can tackle the complexities of musical composition, whether I personally relate to it or not. I don't want to speak for tomasino, but I sense that he might have a similar opinion.
Again by all means, your taste is your taste. It's impossible to please everyone and the same goes for tomasino. But a level of respect should be there. The analogy was simply bad!

Not only because of the dirty socks, but because of the mom cleaning the room and the rest.
_________________________
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#2079560 - 05/08/13 11:23 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5903
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Old Man
I'm perfectly willing to concede that the problem may be with me. But I also can't force myself to like something that I don't.
No-one is asking you to.
Originally Posted By: Old Man
And that in no way means that I am disrespectful of those who write or perform contemporary music. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who can tackle the complexities of musical composition, whether I personally relate to it or not. I don't want to speak for tomasino, but I sense that he might have a similar opinion.
The background is that not all posters have this attitude. And there have been many threads where a poster basically says "contemporary music is ridiculous - no-one could really like it; those who say they do are just trying to show they're more knowledgeable than the rest of us". It gets a bit tiresome to not only have the music one likes rubbished (by people who often haven't listened to much of it) but also to be, by implication, accused of either self-delusion or intellectual posing. So the "dirty sock" reference wasn't the best analogy, given this background.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#2079611 - 05/09/13 02:15 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
This is Piano World...some people here are incredibly uptight and appear to feed on taking offense at stuff that really doesn't matter. If you can look past that, there are quite a few incredibly knowledgeable and accomplished people here. And that makes it all worth participating/reading. smile

http://xkcd.com/386/

_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#2079634 - 05/09/13 03:20 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: currawong]
MathGuy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 232
Loc: California
I've seen a number of threads of the type you're referring to, Currawong, and I share your distaste for having modern music rubbished (great word, by the way). But Tomasino wasn't rubbishing modern music, or comparing it with the smell of dirty socks, or comparing anyone who composes it with the smell of dirty socks. He did say cite something that, for him, the smell of dirty socks and certain modern music have in common, namely that they're both things that he might get accustomed to through repeated exposure, but doesn't necessarily want to. In fact, that's a pretty effective figure of speech, not only because the process of getting used to an unpleasant smell is familiar to most of us, but because juxtaposing two things as obviously unrelated as modern music and smelly socks is a little bit outlandish, and therefore striking and memorable.

On the other hand, we also should all be familiar with the phenomenon whereby readers and listeners - especially ones whose ox has already been gored - will get offended when certain words and phrases are used in close proximity, even if the connection is as remote as it is in Tomasino's post. People regularly get in trouble for this kind of "insensitivity" (most notably in connection with race and religion), so in that sense the type of reaction seen on this thread was somewhat predictable, and therefore avoidable.

Accordingly, I probably should go back and edit out that ox-goring metaphor in the preceding paragraph, because someone who doesn't like modern music could complain that I said they go around eviscerating cattle. Oh, and since I mentioned that potential complaint, they might also complain that I called them illogical, since that hypothetical complaint about the ox-goring thing wouldn't actually make sense. Also, now that I've mentioned two of their potential complaints, they may think I'm calling them chronic complainers. Yep, I definitely should edit that out... wink

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#2079683 - 05/09/13 07:12 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: MathGuy]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
I've seen a number of threads of the type you're referring to, Currawong, and I share your distaste for having modern music rubbished (great word, by the way). But Tomasino wasn't rubbishing modern music, or comparing it with the smell of dirty socks, or comparing anyone who composes it with the smell of dirty socks. He did say cite something that, for him, the smell of dirty socks and certain modern music have in common, namely that they're both things that he might get accustomed to through repeated exposure, but doesn't necessarily want to. In fact, that's a pretty effective figure of speech, not only because the process of getting used to an unpleasant smell is familiar to most of us, but because juxtaposing two things as obviously unrelated as modern music and smelly socks is a little bit outlandish, and therefore striking and memorable.



It seems rather odd that you only see a commonality, but no comparison. I don't think it's just because you have some super-objective point of view, that others of us don't have. The flow of the post clearly leads to a comparison of music he doesn't like to the smell of dirty socks. He first establishes that there is music he won't tolerate, and then proposes that, just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks, some people do keep listening to the music until they can tolerate it. In his words, that is a "strange result", just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks. If that's not a comparison, I really can't imagine what it takes to make one, in your eyes.

Anyway, you can skip the entire dirty socks thing and still see that he is rubbishing the music. He is saying, in fact, that he is NOT willing to go through the dirty socks phase, but dismisses the music as rubbish before then.

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#2079685 - 05/09/13 07:15 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Horowitzian]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
This is Piano World...some people here are incredibly uptight and appear to feed on taking offense at stuff that really doesn't matter.


You mean like you taking offense at people you see as being "incredibly uptight"?

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#2079715 - 05/09/13 08:17 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: jotur]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2410
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: jotur
Originally Posted By: tomasino
...how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk


Actually, 30 years after leaving Minnesota that still remains a mystery to me smile

laugh

Cathy


I'm a Minnesota native, and I still don't get it. However, as Tomasino knows, I'm certainly not a Minnesota Norwegian laugh

Btw, please pass the collard greens!
_________________________
Carl


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#2079789 - 05/09/13 10:41 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
MathGuy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 232
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
I've seen a number of threads of the type you're referring to, Currawong, and I share your distaste for having modern music rubbished (great word, by the way). But Tomasino wasn't rubbishing modern music, or comparing it with the smell of dirty socks, or comparing anyone who composes it with the smell of dirty socks. He did say cite something that, for him, the smell of dirty socks and certain modern music have in common, namely that they're both things that he might get accustomed to through repeated exposure, but doesn't necessarily want to. In fact, that's a pretty effective figure of speech, not only because the process of getting used to an unpleasant smell is familiar to most of us, but because juxtaposing two things as obviously unrelated as modern music and smelly socks is a little bit outlandish, and therefore striking and memorable.


It seems rather odd that you only see a commonality, but no comparison. I don't think it's just because you have some super-objective point of view, that others of us don't have. The flow of the post clearly leads to a comparison of music he doesn't like to the smell of dirty socks. He first establishes that there is music he won't tolerate, and then proposes that, just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks, some people do keep listening to the music until they can tolerate it. In his words, that is a "strange result", just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks. If that's not a comparison, I really can't imagine what it takes to make one, in your eyes.

Anyway, you can skip the entire dirty socks thing and still see that he is rubbishing the music. He is saying, in fact, that he is NOT willing to go through the dirty socks phase, but dismisses the music as rubbish before then.


Here are some examples, since you said you can't imagine what it would take to offend me:
Highly offensive: Modern music is an unpleasant smell.
Moderately offensive: Modern music is like an unpleasant smell.
Barely offensive: Modern music has one abstract property in common with an unpleasant smell, namely that they're both things that someone might come to tolerate or even enjoy through repeated exposure, despite not caring for them initially.

As for Tomasino rubbishing modern music, it's simply not there in the post under discussion. He certainly implies that there's modern music he doesn't like, but if someone did like every piece of modern music, or every flavor of ice cream for that matter, it would call their taste and discrimination into question. And his only earlier post in the same thread said only:
Originally Posted By: tomtomasino
I'm curious. What would "modern sonata form" be? Is it recognized as such, or are you simply referring to the various latter day compositions called "sonatas?"
which might have a subtext but certainly isn't savaging anything.

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#2079807 - 05/09/13 11:54 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13763
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Hmm....to lock or not to lock. On one hand, this thread is a convoluted, ill-tempered mess. On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to deal with the whining that would inevitably result from my closing it. I keep ignoring it, thinking it will go away, but then I remember, it's the internet, and a winner must be declared at all costs, so let the games continue (for now.)
_________________________
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#2079814 - 05/09/13 12:14 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3446
Loc: US
Tomasino,

I was very glad to see you posting again and I hope this doesn't cause you to stay away (although I can see how it might). I did not find the "dirty socks" analogy offensive even though I like a lot of modern music-- it made me laugh. Kind of like some folks' reaction to a good Roquefort-- Yum! laugh

Sophia

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#2079817 - 05/09/13 12:15 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Kreisler]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
Kreisler: I vote for open also.
IMO while the thread has the aspects you mentioned, that doesn't mean it hasn't also been useful and even interesting. I think it has been. Maybe even productive. smile

BTW I was on that other thread and didn't think what Tomasino said was offensive. I also didn't think that anything people said back to him was offensive either.

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#2079852 - 05/09/13 01:52 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: griffin2417]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: griffin2417
Originally Posted By: jotur
Originally Posted By: tomasino
...how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk


Actually, 30 years after leaving Minnesota that still remains a mystery to me smile

laugh

Cathy


I'm a Minnesota native, and I still don't get it. However, as Tomasino knows, I'm certainly not a Minnesota Norwegian laugh

Btw, please pass the collard greens!



Hi Carl,

Whatd'ya think? Maybe a bit of levity would lighten this whole thing up, and we can avert the censor's scissors. I've written a little piece to further illustrate my point about learning to like dirty socks, entitled:

The TRUTH about the perpetuation of Lutefisk eating through multiple generations of Scandinavian-Americans in Minnesota,

by Tom Foley.

Highly respected ethnologists have known, and have written for many years in their learned treatises, that many ethnic groups around the globe have special initiation rites for outsiders attempting to marry into the fold. It often revolves around revolting ethnic food.

In the Norwegian communities of Minnesota, the ritual is set around the “Annual Christmastime Lutefisk Dinner,” held throughout Minnesota in Lutheran church basements.

It works something like this: A young man of unsound heritage--that would be anything not Norwegian--starts a new job, and he notices that in the next cubicle is a pretty little Norsky gal sitting at her desk and working on the computer. Well, he catches her eye every so often, and it seems like everytime he goes off to the water cooler why she goes too. Well, after while it’s pretty hard not to start a conversation, and one thing leads to another, and before you know it, don’cha know, well they’re off to the movies together, and then, why Holy Mackeral, it’s already Christmas time, and she asks him if he wouldn’t like to meet her family. And maybe the “Annual Christmas Lutefisk Feed” in the basement of the Lutheran Church in her home town up there in Lindstrom, Minnesota might be just the right setting.

This is a culture trap, and our hero hasn’t lived his whole life as a non-Norwegian in Minnesota for nothing, and he knows better than to say “yes” too quickly to a Lutefisk dinner--but still, she’s a very pretty little Norsky, and he's confused, and maybe he loves her and maybe she loves him, and he’s just not quite quick enough at biting his tongue, and so he finds himself saying “yes” in his confusion.

Pale faced and drawn, he arrives there at the Christmas Eve Lutefisk Dinner with the pretty little Norsky holding onto his arm all nice and sweet. Looking around, he can’t help but notice that the Norwegians are really making quite a show of how this is the best Lutefisk they ever tasted. They’re all standing in line waiting to get some, and they pile it up high on their plates.

He can’t help but notice the clear liquid that seeps out from beneath the Lutefisk onto the plate, reminding him of the drizzle coming from the nose of someone who suffers from severe nasal allergies--well, with that for a thought he gags right there--he starts to make a run for the door, but the sweet little Norsky anticipates this and squeezes his arm encouragingly, and presses up against him, and so he takes a deep breath instead.

He desperately seeks to reassure himself that it’ll all be OK. They seem like real nice people, afterall, as he watches them scarf down their Lutefisk and go back for seconds, and they tell him he better get some real quick before it all gets eaten up. Before long he’s standing in line and a nice old Scandahoovian lady piles some Lutefisk high up on his plate and tops it off with some lingenberries and cream sauce. “Ummm, yummy” she says, while rubbing her tummy.

Still pale-faced, he sits down on a bench at a long table. He takes his time eating the pickled herring and the potatoes on his plate, and then looks around and smiles as if to say, “well, that was really good. What a treat. Thank you.” But they’re all looking at him in a focused and intense manner. A kindly old lady says “are you gonna try some of the Lutefisk too?”

With an overwhelming sense of dread, he carefully loads up the fork, making sure the first bite is mostly lingenberries and cream sauce with maybe just a little bit of Lutefisk. The church basement has become very still, just the sound of knives and forks as the Norskys concentrate on their Lutefisk.

He takes his first nibble, and don’cha know he nearly barfs right there, but he somehow manages to regain his composure with a little help from his sweetie who squeezes his arm. Just for a second it seems as if the Norsky's looked up from their plates. But the church basement remains very silent, just the sounds of knives and forks as they continue to scarf down the Lutefisk in deep concentration.

“Tastes gud, ja?” says a kindly old Norwegian gent with a twinkle in his eye, while offering him a swig of Norwegian aquavit from a flask. He eagerly takes a swig to wash away the dreadful taste and the slippery sluggish slimy texture, and then, somehow, with the aid of the Norwegian aquavit, gets up the courage to take another bite of Lutefisk, then another swig, and well, one thing leads to another, don’cha know, and before long he’s singing Norwegian songs and telling Ole and Lena yokes--and then he takes another bite, another swig, and another bite-- it gets easier and easier.

A little later he is awakened from his semi-comatose condition by a loud commotion in Norwegian. They all seem to be having a real good time yoost hootin’ and hollarin’ and knee slappin’ away about something real funny. He's in no mood for humor as he hears a single line of English in a deep Scandahoovian accent singing out, “Did’ja notice how he loaded up duh first bite dere vis mostly lingenberries?” Then they all slap their knees and go “hoo ha, hoo ha,” and hoot and hollar some more.

Well, if this young fellow can man-up to this sort of ethnic humor, he’ll probably succeed in marrying the pretty little Norsky girl--and it’ll be a good thing too--and for generations of grandchildren and great-grandchildren, he’ll have to endure the hilarity of his first lutefisk feed--”Granmama, tell us again about Granpapa and the Lutefisk dinner, and how he loaded up the fork with mostly lingenberries.” Even his great grandchildren will go “hoo ha,” and everybody will slap their knees with the hilarity of the retelling. And there’s no escape, no end to it. Even the neighbors, and the neighbor’s neighbors, and all their cousins and their uncles and their aunts will know about it too. This is just the way it is on marrying into the Scandahoovian community here in Minnesoota. This is how they learn to like Lutefisk. They do it by eating the horrid stuff every Christmas til they get used to it, and by then having a really good time at the novitiate's expense.

And our hero will participate in this initiation ritual every time one of his daughters, granddaughters and greatgrandaughters brings home a new beau. And after just one genration, he will learn to like Lutefisk, to love it, to lust for it, and to go “hoo ha,” and slap his knees.

And as learned ethnologists know, and have written about in their scholarly treatises, it works in much the same way all around the world. The Scots and their “Haggis,” for example--Scots don’t just happen to like it. They learn to like it through generations of marriage initiation rites, and the association of it with having a really good time. And Afro-Americans too, with their “Chitlins.” Don't fall for it. It’s pig’s intestines for cripe’s sake. Who would like it? It's a set up, and they'll make a really big fuss about how good it is if there’s a honky ready at hand wanting to carry off the prettyist daughter in the family. So tread carefully. You may like the girl well enough--and it may be worth it, don’t discount that--but just know what you’re getting into.

It’ll work something like this. The girl will invite you out for drinks with her older brother, Xavier, and you seem to get on real well with him talking about sports and the Minnesota Vikings. And when the topic turns to the Minnesota Twins, you will truly bond with him in a deep and dark mood of brotherly gloom.

But then, happily, Xavier breaks the spell with a wide smile, and invites you home for Chitlins. “Hey, man, you oughta c’mon home and have some real good Chitlins like Gramma used to make in the deep south, mmmm yummy, that’s goooooood eatin,” as he rubs his belly.

Now be warned. This is a set-up--and sweet as she is, and maybe she even loves you--she's in on it, she knows what's goin' on. If you accept the invitation, it will be unbearable just like you knew it would be--pig intestines, think about it--and after you leave, they will all gather in the kitchen and give each other round after round of high fives. “Didja hear ‘m mama,” hoots Xavier, “d‘ja hear ‘m. He said . . . he said . . . hoo ha . . . the honky said . . . he said he LIKED it.” This is followed by hooting, hollaring and knee slapping, and then another round of high-fives. And if you marry her--and if you’ve got any sense, you will, because she loves you--you’ll have to live with this humiliation til your dying day. And you’ll learn to truly love it about a year or so later. You’ll come to appreciate the exquisite beauty of how this situation of hilarity at your expense came about.

It’ll go something like this: Your new in-laws will still be hooting it up and doing high fives about you and the Chitlins as you all pile into the car--you with your lovely new baby and your beautiful new wife--to go out to dinner with Sarita Gupta’s family. Now Sarita Gupta is from the same family who owns the Curry House across town. Seems your wife’s older brother, Xavier, has found himself a pretty little gal from India, and it’s time for the two families to get together to share some fine ethnic food--#5 ON THE SPICY SCALE.

“Hoo ha” you think, as you watch Xavier eating every bit of it with a hot curry eating grin on his face, and you wallow in delight with your new-found understanding and appreciation of the uses of fine ethnic cuisine. There’s even some drizzle coming out of his nose from the heat, like the drizzle that comes from the nose of someone with severe nasal allergies, and between every other bite or so, Sarita sweetly wipes it off with a napkin.

And Sarita’s family will see to it that Xavier lives with this for the rest of his days. Even the neighbors and the neighbor’s neighbors, and all their cousins and their uncles and their aunts . . . . And after only one generation, Xavier will learn to like #5 ON THE SPICY SCALE.
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2079867 - 05/09/13 02:40 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
jotur Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5448
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
smile

Bonding over the Minnesota Twins laugh

Cathy
_________________________

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#2079895 - 05/09/13 03:32 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4838
Hmmm, I love contemporary music (other than the squeaky-gate or plink-plonk variety), and I just LOVE eating very hot curries, haggis (and deep-fried Mars bars*, and deep-fried ice cream), black pudding, entrails and offal (including stomachs and intestines), brains, ears, eyes etc; and when I went touring Down Under, I went on a walkabout with an aboriginal so that he could show me how to find and eat live red ants and witchetty grubs, among other delicacies. I've yet to have the pleasure of eating that Norwegian decomposed fish, but next time I visit Troldhaugen, perhaps.

And I'm not of Scandinavian stock...... grin

*deep-fried Mars bar is another Scottish delicacy to improve (i.e. increase) your cholesterol level: the chocolate-coated nougat-and-caramel confectionary (straight from the refrigerator) is coated in batter and quickly deep-fried, without the bar melting. Ditto for deep-fried ice-cream. Yum!!

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#2079950 - 05/09/13 05:42 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13763
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Hehe...I have now been both lauded and chastised for leaving this thread open.

So here's the deal:

If you like that the thread is open, feel free to participate.

If you don't like that the thread is open. Feel free to NOT READ IT.

laugh
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#2079957 - 05/09/13 05:52 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7513
Loc: New York City
How about you lock it each day at noon, and unlock it at midnight, and so on? grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2079959 - 05/09/13 05:55 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Kreisler]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Those that feel offended should remember that it was the modernists who were mocking the traditionalists, and still do in academia.
Ives"Use your ears like a man"
Babbitt "who cares if you listen"
It has been the more "traditionalist " listener, and composer, who've been "the offended" in this scenario

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#2079963 - 05/09/13 06:03 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Kreisler]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Hehe...I have now been both lauded and chastised for leaving this thread open.

So here's the deal:

If you like that the thread is open, feel free to participate.

If you don't like that the thread is open. Feel free to NOT READ IT.

laugh

Put me down as a "lauder". smile

And your last 2 sentences summarize perfectly why we "whiners" believe threads should be left open, if at all possible.

And I agree with Mark that neither side was particularly "offensive", or, to use your words, "ill tempered". The internet is a feeble medium for communication, so misinterpretation abounds and feelings get hurt. But I don't think anyone has descended to name calling yet, so I'd call that downright civil. laugh

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#2079970 - 05/09/13 06:15 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

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#2079977 - 05/09/13 06:36 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Well good. It seems like we're not gonna be cut off just yet.

In the meantime, I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2079982 - 05/09/13 06:47 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: MathGuy]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
I've seen a number of threads of the type you're referring to, Currawong, and I share your distaste for having modern music rubbished (great word, by the way). But Tomasino wasn't rubbishing modern music, or comparing it with the smell of dirty socks, or comparing anyone who composes it with the smell of dirty socks. He did say cite something that, for him, the smell of dirty socks and certain modern music have in common, namely that they're both things that he might get accustomed to through repeated exposure, but doesn't necessarily want to. In fact, that's a pretty effective figure of speech, not only because the process of getting used to an unpleasant smell is familiar to most of us, but because juxtaposing two things as obviously unrelated as modern music and smelly socks is a little bit outlandish, and therefore striking and memorable.


It seems rather odd that you only see a commonality, but no comparison. I don't think it's just because you have some super-objective point of view, that others of us don't have. The flow of the post clearly leads to a comparison of music he doesn't like to the smell of dirty socks. He first establishes that there is music he won't tolerate, and then proposes that, just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks, some people do keep listening to the music until they can tolerate it. In his words, that is a "strange result", just like getting used to the smell of dirty socks. If that's not a comparison, I really can't imagine what it takes to make one, in your eyes.

Anyway, you can skip the entire dirty socks thing and still see that he is rubbishing the music. He is saying, in fact, that he is NOT willing to go through the dirty socks phase, but dismisses the music as rubbish before then.


Here are some examples, since you said you can't imagine what it would take to offend me:
Highly offensive: Modern music is an unpleasant smell.
Moderately offensive: Modern music is like an unpleasant smell.
Barely offensive: Modern music has one abstract property in common with an unpleasant smell, namely that they're both things that someone might come to tolerate or even enjoy through repeated exposure, despite not caring for them initially.

As for Tomasino rubbishing modern music, it's simply not there in the post under discussion. He certainly implies that there's modern music he doesn't like, but if someone did like every piece of modern music, or every flavor of ice cream for that matter, it would call their taste and discrimination into question. And his only earlier post in the same thread said only:
Originally Posted By: tomtomasino
I'm curious. What would "modern sonata form" be? Is it recognized as such, or are you simply referring to the various latter day compositions called "sonatas?"
which might have a subtext but certainly isn't savaging anything.


Well, no, I didn't say I couldn't imagine what it would take to offend you. I said I couldn't imagine what it would take for you to see that a comparison between two things had been made.

To me, if a person says "this is like that", a comparison has been made. And actually identifying every single aspect of the comparison isn't needed to see which parts are parallels - that's just the way analogies work.

I am not (well, not yet) going to go into the archives to find the examples I know are there of tomasino's rubbishing of certain modern music. Knowing that background, it is hard for me not to see it in the post under discussion here, even if it is not straightforwardly stated.

He says he won't listen in a spirit of tolerance until he gets used to the music and might even like it. Well, why not? He says doing so can bring strange results. Really? What's so strange about learning how to listen to something you don't first understand?

Well, he thinks it's like getting used to some bad smell. In other words, the music is still not any good, it's just that the listener has become inured to it.

Now, you may read that as simply expressing personal taste, but it reads to me as saying the music is disgusting.



Edited by wr (05/10/13 01:26 AM)

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#2079983 - 05/09/13 06:47 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: keystring]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
How about you lock it each day at noon, and unlock it at midnight, and so on? grin

Define noon and midnight. We're spread all over the globe. Every second of the day is noon and midnight somewhere in the world.

Thanks for reminding me! It's happy hour -- somewhere. Gotta go.

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#2079984 - 05/09/13 06:50 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

He may not have said it but the sentiment was prevalent. I love a lot of 20th century music/composers but the point is that the avant-guarde have been the bullies so its just something to keep in mind when feeling affronted


Edited by antony (05/09/13 06:52 PM)

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#2079985 - 05/09/13 06:54 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

He may not have said it but the sentiment was prevalent. I love a lot of 20th century music/composers but the point is that the avant-guarde have been the bullies so its just something to keep in mind when feeling affronted


That's rather a broad brush you are painting with.

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#2080039 - 05/09/13 09:23 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: tomasino

In the meantime, I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.



It's interesting that we're apparently supposed to make a guess about your feelings, and then respond.

If you are talking to me, I am not reacting to you personally. I have no idea of who you are. I am reacting to stuff you post here, i.e., the "content".

Of course, if you post something that insults my taste in music, you will get push-back, and it might be a little cranky. But it's not about you, it's about what you posted.

Obviously, when talking about what someone posts, there will be references to the person doing the writing. There may be references to their tone. There may be references to their thinking. But it's not "personal" in the sense that I think you mean.

Anyway, to me, it's unwise to make deals based on trust with strangers, so count me out of your little scheme. I have a number of people here on my "Ignore user" list, and you won't find me responding to their posts. It's not that hard. I didn't need to make any deal for that to happen. I didn't need to make any announcement about it. Once in a while, I might make a reference to my list. Sometimes a user will be on it for a while, and then I'll take them off for a while, and then put them back on. Or not. And once in a while, if a user on my list gets quoted in someone else's message and I really couldn't avoid reading it, I may respond indirectly. If one of them starts a thread and there are responses that interest me, I may participate without even needing to read the OP. I think the "Ignore user" thing works out pretty well.

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#2080074 - 05/09/13 11:20 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

He may not have said it but the sentiment was prevalent. I love a lot of 20th century music/composers but the point is that the avant-guarde have been the bullies so its just something to keep in mind when feeling affronted


That's rather a broad brush you are painting with.


It's not. You can't deny that the "modernists", in music and the visual arts, have held sway for years, and the audience as the receiver has been cowed by the stance of the Babbitts He may not have explicitly said "who cares..." but he did say the composer was a specialist and the audience needs education and exposure to understand and appreciate. This puts the onus on the audience and not the artist. He rightly decried populism but there is an enormous difference between populism and using standardized and accepted modes of communicationThen you end up with gallery shows with mattresses on the ceiling and toilet bowls etc because the artist can do whatever they want and just say the audience doesn't get it. People don't want to appear stupid so the canard gets perpetuat

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#2080097 - 05/10/13 12:56 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
MathGuy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 232
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: wr
Well, no, I didn't say I couldn't imagine what it would take to offend you. I said I couldn't imagine what it would take for you to see that a comparison between two things had been made.
You're right about that, of course, and I apologize for mischaracterizing what you said.

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#2080103 - 05/10/13 01:24 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.

He may not have said it but the sentiment was prevalent. I love a lot of 20th century music/composers but the point is that the avant-guarde have been the bullies so its just something to keep in mind when feeling affronted


That's rather a broad brush you are painting with.


It's not. You can't deny that the "modernists", in music and the visual arts, have held sway for years, and the audience as the receiver has been cowed by the stance of the Babbitts He may not have explicitly said "who cares..." but he did say the composer was a specialist and the audience needs education and exposure to understand and appreciate. This puts the onus on the audience and not the artist. He rightly decried populism but there is an enormous difference between populism and using standardized and accepted modes of communicationThen you end up with gallery shows with mattresses on the ceiling and toilet bowls etc because the artist can do whatever they want and just say the audience doesn't get it. People don't want to appear stupid so the canard gets perpetuat


It is a broad brush because although there definitely were some intellectual bullies (e.g., Boulez was pretty famous as one), it was hardly a characteristic of all modernist or avant garde composers. And, as far as I know, they haven't held sway in quite a long time, probably a couple of decades at least. For example, of the composers in residence with the major orchestras in the US, I can't think of one that falls into that genre. I'm sure there are some in the composition departments some universities, but that whole "you must write strict 12-tone or get out my class" thing has been over in most places for quite a while, from what I hear.

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#2080107 - 05/10/13 01:30 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: MathGuy]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: MathGuy
Originally Posted By: wr
Well, no, I didn't say I couldn't imagine what it would take to offend you. I said I couldn't imagine what it would take for you to see that a comparison between two things had been made.
You're right about that, of course, and I apologize for mischaracterizing what you said.


No apology necessary - I figured you just misread it.

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#2080199 - 05/10/13 07:49 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


By the way, I found out that Babbitt's own title for that essay was "The Composer as Specialist".

It's funny, I used to loathe Babbitt's music, and everything I thought he stood for. I may not have made a complete 180 degree about-face on that, but it's probably around 167 degrees. At least I can listen to some of it with some pleasure, and don't think he was a complete ogre anymore.

It's interesting that Stephen Sondheim was a student of his, and says that he asked to be taught serial composition, but Babbitt wouldn't do it, saying Sondheim hadn't exhausted his tonal resources yet. So I guess he wasn't imposing his own compositional methods on his students.

I just watched this very interesting and entertaining documentary on Babbitt -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf_Zfpq3gqk

and thought Sondheim's comments were particularly interesting, especially since they aren't from within academia. Similarly, the comments of Stanley Jordan, a jazz guitarist who also studied with Babbitt, are illuminating, I think.


Edited by wr (05/10/13 08:14 AM)

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#2080218 - 05/10/13 08:39 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2410
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: tomasino
Originally Posted By: griffin2417
Originally Posted By: jotur
Originally Posted By: tomasino
...how did Minnesota Norwegians ever come to like Lutefisk


Actually, 30 years after leaving Minnesota that still remains a mystery to me smile

laugh

Cathy


I'm a Minnesota native, and I still don't get it. However, as Tomasino knows, I'm certainly not a Minnesota Norwegian laugh

Btw, please pass the collard greens!



Hi Carl,

Whatd'ya think? Maybe a bit of levity would lighten this whole thing up, and we can avert the censor's scissors. I've written a little piece to further illustrate my point about learning to like dirty socks, entitled:

The TRUTH about the perpetuation of Lutefisk eating through multiple generations of Scandinavian-Americans in Minnesota,

by Tom Foley.

Highly respected ethnologists have known, and have written for many years in their learned treatises, that many ethnic groups around the globe have special initiation rites for outsiders attempting to marry into the fold. It often revolves around revolting ethnic food.



thumb Absolutely BRILLIANT!!! laugh Tom, I don't know when I've laughed so hard at a Minnesoooota story! laugh laugh

You even managed to get in some references to Ole and Leena laugh

Xavier's family's initiation rites for outsiders attempting to marry into the fold with Chitlins had a familiar ring to it. However, my family offered a second food option if a newcomer had the nerve to say they didn't like the Chitlins. The second food option would be a steak dinner. Of course, one would have to eat at least one Chitlin to confirm they truly didn't like Chitlins. That seemed quite reasonable to Reggie, the newcomer who was about to be initiated.

Reggie started to become suspicious that it was a trick, and there wouldn't really be any steak if he ate the Chitlin. Not to worry, his beloved told him. "Cousin Alana hates Chitlins and is always served steak instead of Chitlins," his beloved assured. "See here is the steak they'll cook to your liking if you at least give one Chitlin a try!"

Reggie cautiously put the Chitlin in his mouth and he gagged. As promised, a steak dinner was served to Reggie, cousin Alana and a few other family members. Reggie thought he had gotten off easy. WRONG! "Well, looks like we got another one to eat a Chitlin for their supper rather than singing for it," proclaimed one of the family elders. The room exploded into laughter.
_________________________
Carl


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#2080259 - 05/10/13 10:21 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: antony
Those that feel offended should remember that it was the modernists who were mocking the traditionalists, and still do in academia.
Ives"Use your ears like a man"
Babbitt "who cares if you listen"
It has been the more "traditionalist " listener, and composer, who've been "the offended" in this scenario


Well said.

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2080269 - 05/10/13 10:41 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.


Actually, WR, the headline title does not mislead, as he said something very close to that in this paragraph:

"I say all this not to present a picture of a virtuous music in a sinful world, but to point up the problems of a special music in an alien and inapposite world. And so, I dare suggest that the composer would do himself and his music an immediate and eventual service by total, resolute, and voluntary withdrawal from this public world to one of private performance and electronic media, with its very real possibility of complete elimination of the public and social aspects of musical composition. By so doing, the separation between the domains would be defined beyond any possibility of confusion of categories, and the composer would be free to pursue a private life of professional achievement, as opposed to a public life of unprofessional compromise and exhibitionism."

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2080311 - 05/10/13 12:28 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: tomasino
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.


Actually, WR, the headline title does not mislead, as he said something very close to that in this paragraph:

"I say all this not to present a picture of a virtuous music in a sinful world, but to point up the problems of a special music in an alien and inapposite world. And so, I dare suggest that the composer would do himself and his music an immediate and eventual service by total, resolute, and voluntary withdrawal from this public world to one of private performance and electronic media, with its very real possibility of complete elimination of the public and social aspects of musical composition. By so doing, the separation between the domains would be defined beyond any possibility of confusion of categories, and the composer would be free to pursue a private life of professional achievement, as opposed to a public life of unprofessional compromise and exhibitionism."

Tomasino


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence

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#2080330 - 05/10/13 01:06 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

In the meantime, I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.



It's interesting that we're apparently supposed to make a guess about your feelings, and then respond.

If you are talking to me, I am not reacting to you personally. I have no idea of who you are. I am reacting to stuff you post here, i.e., the "content".

Of course, if you post something that insults my taste in music, you will get push-back, and it might be a little cranky. But it's not about you, it's about what you posted.

Obviously, when talking about what someone posts, there will be references to the person doing the writing. There may be references to their tone. There may be references to their thinking. But it's not "personal" in the sense that I think you mean.

Anyway, to me, it's unwise to make deals based on trust with strangers, so count me out of your little scheme. I have a number of people here on my "Ignore user" list, and you won't find me responding to their posts. It's not that hard. I didn't need to make any deal for that to happen. I didn't need to make any announcement about it. Once in a while, I might make a reference to my list. Sometimes a user will be on it for a while, and then I'll take them off for a while, and then put them back on. Or not. And once in a while, if a user on my list gets quoted in someone else's message and I really couldn't avoid reading it, I may respond indirectly. If one of them starts a thread and there are responses that interest me, I may participate without even needing to read the OP. I think the "Ignore user" thing works out pretty well.


WR, there's no need to guess my feelings. I'll make them even clearer. You may not mean it personally, I wouldn't know that for a fact--but I take it personally, and I do know that for a fact. I have proposed a private truce, and if one of us fails to live up to it and does respond to the other, everyone will know they peeked and broke the truce, as the other will be able to post the deal that was made. This is not a deal "based on trust between strangers. Within the context of Piano World, we know each other quite well. And "trust." It's not that either. The idea is that the threat of public embarrassment will enforce the deal. As to the problem of finding ourselves participating on the same post, and being quoted, just give me a little space. Take the time to write around me bit. I'll do the same.

So have a heart. If not for yourself, do it for me.

Push the button and let me know, and I'll push the button and let you know, and I will be relieved of all the feelings that you are attacking me. It would be a real favor to me, even a gift. It would loosen the hesitancy I feel in contributing to Piano World, because I would then be able to more freely participate in the forums, both in content and in terms of allowing some of my personality to hang out a bit--to be funny, to be wry, to be enjoyable, and maybe even a little passionate at times--without feeling I must spend so much time writing as cautiously and carefully as I feel I must. It makes me feel hobbled in my personal style. Afterall, this is an online forum, not an academic forum. We're all people with personalities. I'd like to be a little looser in my participation. I hate participating with the attitude that I must "give as good as I get." I just loathe it.

And I'd rather participate more on Piano World, not less, and there are any number of Piano World participants who would like to hear more from me. They like my posts. They find them "interesting," "always on point," "good content," "thoughtful"--they have said so both openly and in private messages--but the fear of attack, intentional on your part, or not, inhibits me.

Please. What does it cost you?

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2080339 - 05/10/13 01:16 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5220
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: tomasino

Please. What does it cost you?
It costs a very solid idea: That neither of you are ready to give up, stop fighting, change your minds even a little, or assume (even in fake) that you are wrong!

That goes if wr accepts the iggy invitation! Otherwise this leaves you and your suggestion!

You see, you should be stronger than that: Just ignore him! I tend to do that with a few people, but I don't need the ignore button (and btw, I don't think that I've caused any heated hatred here, except for with people who are long gone now (Saul comes to mind, for example)...

Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". It just doesn't happen.

But atonal music? People don't get it (even though nice people create nice threads and get nice replies... Take a look at Joels thread for example).
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2080346 - 05/10/13 01:30 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: tomasino
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony

Babbitt "who cares if you listen"


Babbitt never said that - some editor made it up as the title for an essay Babbitt wrote, undoubtedly trying to be provocative.

The essay itself is a very good explanation of why some modern music is "difficult" and may require some background for a listener to fully appreciate.


Actually, WR, the headline title does not mislead, as he said something very close to that in this paragraph:

"I say all this not to present a picture of a virtuous music in a sinful world, but to point up the problems of a special music in an alien and inapposite world. And so, I dare suggest that the composer would do himself and his music an immediate and eventual service by total, resolute, and voluntary withdrawal from this public world to one of private performance and electronic media, with its very real possibility of complete elimination of the public and social aspects of musical composition. By so doing, the separation between the domains would be defined beyond any possibility of confusion of categories, and the composer would be free to pursue a private life of professional achievement, as opposed to a public life of unprofessional compromise and exhibitionism."

Tomasino

Actually, I agree with the content of this quote. I believe all artists (composers, writers, painters, sculptors, etc.) should create only what pleases them, and should never allow public desires or expectation to intrude on this creative process. Deliberately pandering to public taste for the purpose of fame or fortune is the very definition of "schlock art", or "kitsch".

But this relationship between the artist and the public is a double-edged sword. While the artist may (and IMO should) ignore the collective public taste during the creative process, that same artist should also have zero expectations that this same ignored public will then embrace the final product. I commend Babbitt in the above quote for recognizing this, because he called for total "withdrawal from this public world to one of private performance and electronic media." So he seems to extend the separation beyond the "creation" phase. But I think many composers find the thought of "public" acceptance so tantalizing, they simply cannot resist the "world premiere", only to discover that what they thought was pleasing did not please. The result is often a dejected, embittered composer, who blames the ignorant, unscrubbed masses for his failure.

This relationship between composer and public is a fascinating one, and is discussed in greater depth in Henry Pleasants' famous (or should I say "infamous") book, "The Agony of Modern Music", published in 1955. I know the book is considered outright heresy in most music circles, and much of it is indeed "rubbish" (especially his prognostications), but there was also much that I agreed with. However, I would NOT recommend this book to: wr, currawong, or Nikolas. grin

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#2080469 - 05/10/13 06:39 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: antony


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence


Except that it wasn't a "modernist shift". Try Gesualdo. Beethoven wrote plenty of advanced music that was "intellectual indulgence" intended for musically literate connoisseurs, and he would be mightily offended at the idea of composer as servant.


Edited by wr (05/10/13 06:39 PM)

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#2080544 - 05/10/13 11:16 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence


Except that it wasn't a "modernist shift". Try Gesualdo. Beethoven wrote plenty of advanced music that was "intellectual indulgence" intended for musically literate connoisseurs, and he would be mightily offended at the idea of composer as servant.

Yes, you could say Beethoven was the first modernist, and he may have been offended but he was still a human being and that doesn't make him right. I don't mean servant in the literal sense as in one who would carry the luggage, but one who's duty is to *serve the spirit and function of art which had always been to put people in accord with their world during their time.
People love to reference Beethoven's late works as a means of supporting the idea of "too difficult at first listen position" but there are many many moments of those late works which are highly accessible. I would argue that the waldstein is as ethereal transcendent and simultaneously more accessible than the last trio of sonatas or the late string quartets.

Speaking of Babbitt, I took a class with a protege of his who writes fractal music and he didn't like late Beethoven and said it was "weird"
I think it was a short work by Soloman that did a lot to perpetuate the late Beethoven as mystic idea

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#2080545 - 05/10/13 11:22 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Nikolas]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR

"Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". "

I don't understand your point. Nobody says those things about Chopin because he isn't any of those things


Edited by antony (05/10/13 11:37 PM)

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#2080623 - 05/11/13 06:18 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: tomasino
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: tomasino

In the meantime, I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.



It's interesting that we're apparently supposed to make a guess about your feelings, and then respond.

If you are talking to me, I am not reacting to you personally. I have no idea of who you are. I am reacting to stuff you post here, i.e., the "content".

Of course, if you post something that insults my taste in music, you will get push-back, and it might be a little cranky. But it's not about you, it's about what you posted.

Obviously, when talking about what someone posts, there will be references to the person doing the writing. There may be references to their tone. There may be references to their thinking. But it's not "personal" in the sense that I think you mean.

Anyway, to me, it's unwise to make deals based on trust with strangers, so count me out of your little scheme. I have a number of people here on my "Ignore user" list, and you won't find me responding to their posts. It's not that hard. I didn't need to make any deal for that to happen. I didn't need to make any announcement about it. Once in a while, I might make a reference to my list. Sometimes a user will be on it for a while, and then I'll take them off for a while, and then put them back on. Or not. And once in a while, if a user on my list gets quoted in someone else's message and I really couldn't avoid reading it, I may respond indirectly. If one of them starts a thread and there are responses that interest me, I may participate without even needing to read the OP. I think the "Ignore user" thing works out pretty well.


WR, there's no need to guess my feelings. I'll make them even clearer. You may not mean it personally, I wouldn't know that for a fact--but I take it personally, and I do know that for a fact. I have proposed a private truce, and if one of us fails to live up to it and does respond to the other, everyone will know they peeked and broke the truce, as the other will be able to post the deal that was made. This is not a deal "based on trust between strangers. Within the context of Piano World, we know each other quite well. And "trust." It's not that either. The idea is that the threat of public embarrassment will enforce the deal. As to the problem of finding ourselves participating on the same post, and being quoted, just give me a little space. Take the time to write around me bit. I'll do the same.

So have a heart. If not for yourself, do it for me.

Push the button and let me know, and I'll push the button and let you know, and I will be relieved of all the feelings that you are attacking me. It would be a real favor to me, even a gift. It would loosen the hesitancy I feel in contributing to Piano World, because I would then be able to more freely participate in the forums, both in content and in terms of allowing some of my personality to hang out a bit--to be funny, to be wry, to be enjoyable, and maybe even a little passionate at times--without feeling I must spend so much time writing as cautiously and carefully as I feel I must. It makes me feel hobbled in my personal style. Afterall, this is an online forum, not an academic forum. We're all people with personalities. I'd like to be a little looser in my participation. I hate participating with the attitude that I must "give as good as I get." I just loathe it.

And I'd rather participate more on Piano World, not less, and there are any number of Piano World participants who would like to hear more from me. They like my posts. They find them "interesting," "always on point," "good content," "thoughtful"--they have said so both openly and in private messages--but the fear of attack, intentional on your part, or not, inhibits me.

Please. What does it cost you?



It costs me the freedom to participate here as I want. Everything you talk about seems to be your problem, not mine. I don't "attack" you - but I will attack things in posts that I think are worth attacking. If you can't live with that, too bad. Most people here can and do, without getting all paranoid about people jumping out of ditches and attacking them. To me, you sound as if you think you deserve some special kind of pass - I don't agree.

So, no, I'm not going to play your game and be your codependent here. You seem confused about how we do the "Ignore" here - it's on an individual basis, each on their own, on their own volition, putting people on and taking them off whenever one wants. Here, I'll show you how it's done...

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#2080639 - 05/11/13 06:57 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence


Except that it wasn't a "modernist shift". Try Gesualdo. Beethoven wrote plenty of advanced music that was "intellectual indulgence" intended for musically literate connoisseurs, and he would be mightily offended at the idea of composer as servant.

Yes, you could say Beethoven was the first modernist, and he may have been offended but he was still a human being and that doesn't make him right. I don't mean servant in the literal sense as in one who would carry the luggage, but one who's duty is to *serve the spirit and function of art which had always been to put people in accord with their world during their time.
People love to reference Beethoven's late works as a means of supporting the idea of "too difficult at first listen position" but there are many many moments of those late works which are highly accessible. I would argue that the waldstein is as ethereal transcendent and simultaneously more accessible than the last trio of sonatas or the late string quartets.

Speaking of Babbitt, I took a class with a protege of his who writes fractal music and he didn't like late Beethoven and said it was "weird"
I think it was a short work by Soloman that did a lot to perpetuate the late Beethoven as mystic idea


But what makes your version of the purpose of art the right one? Or the only one?

Or, what if those artists who are doing art as "pure fancy and intellectual indulgence" are in fact "putting people in accord with their world during their time". They may not be affecting all people in that way, but then, no artist does. If Babbitt's music in some way puts me in accord with my world (and I think it does), then I think it has served that higher purpose, according to your specifications.

I thought of some more examples of pre-Modernist purists than just Gesualdo and Beethoven, after I posted. One of the more interesting ones is Liszt, who often enough is accused of the exact opposite of of art for its own sake - which is that he unashamedly pandered to the masses with empty virtuosic bombast (a view I don't subscribe to, BTW). What's fascinating is that by the end of his life, he was composing music that was so utterly detached from anything anyone around him understood that not even Wagner, his buddy in "Music of the Future", could figure out what he was up to.

Liszt's friend Alkan (who was also a friend and neighbor of Chopin) wrote a large amount of music that was so unusual and private that it rarely, if ever, reached "the man on the street", but some his colleagues knew about it. Anton Rubinstein even dedicated his 5th piano concerto to Alkan.

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#2080762 - 05/11/13 11:20 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: tomasino
I wanna propose a deal to those whom I feel are reacting more personally to me than to the content of my posts. But the deal requires a little explanation. The "ignore this user" button isn't as effective as it might be. I've tried it. It is just too easy to push the button a second time and have a little peek.

But I will make a pledge to those who I feel are reacting personally to me rather than to my content, (I think you have a pretty good sense of who you might be). I pledge to push your "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at your posts, if you promise to push my "ignore this user" button, and never, ever peek at my posts?"

Deal?

If you accept, let me know with a private message, and we'll never come to this point again.


Am I vain, or is this song about me? Am I the one crouching deep in the "ditch", waiting to "pounce on" you? Well, things have been busy here in the ditch lately, so although I saw this thread a couple days ago, I've had no time to respond until now.

Before I get around to your proposal, I'd like to make a few things clear. First, if this is indeed about me, your last sentence above is baffling. We have not come to any sort of point. It's just you. I'm genuinely surprised that a handful of my responses to your think pieces could help drive you away from here. I can recall 4 or 5 responses, maybe I've forgotten 2 or 3, but you've accumulated 2,000+ posts. That's hardly restraining order material.

Also, my responses (before this one) have always been exclusively about the content of your posts, nothing else.

I did not take offense to your dirty sock analogy. Though from time to time I can be easily irritated, I'm not easily offended. I did, to use wr's phrase, "take exception" to the analogy, and my response clearly explains why, but in general, I don't care whether any particular person likes any particular kind of music. It's true that many passionate deriders of "modern atonal" music (not you) are almost completely unfamiliar with it, but I've grown accustomed to that.

Regarding your proposal, I don't care whether you use the Ignore feature on me. I won't agree to use it on you, because I don't need it, and because this is my internet too. However, if this is important to you, I will be happy to refrain from responding to any of your posts, unless they are directed specifically at me. I admire wr's principled stance on the matter, but I won't adopt it myself, only because it doesn't feel so good to have someone attributing his disappearance to me (among others), even if I don't consider myself to be at fault.

So there you go. I might read 'em, but I won't write back. I hope that's good enough.

Best regards,
LP

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#2080820 - 05/11/13 12:44 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 117
In a public internet discussion forum that is unrelated to academia, in which almost all expression is uncredentialed and anonymous, I am astonished that some people take themselves so seriously. It's grandiose and surreal.

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#2080870 - 05/11/13 02:06 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
patH Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 550
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: antony

"Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". "

I don't understand your point. Nobody says those things about Chopin because he isn't any of those things

Chopin is not popular? That's not the impression I get when reading this forum.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

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#2080923 - 05/11/13 04:35 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
OK. No takers to the deal. That closes that avenue. I don't know how to respond at this point. That's just too bad, and I feel badly about it.

Tomasino
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2080928 - 05/11/13 04:39 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5220
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: antony

"Oh, btw, I don't really mind your posts, in fact I enjoy them a lot, but the smelly socks was a bad analogy, exactly because my life is contemporary classical music and it pains me to see such analogies... The opposite never stands true really: Can you imagine thread labelled "What on earth is about Chopin? He's ugly, his music is awful, and he's popular! Why, oh why, oh why?!?!". "

I don't understand your point. Nobody says those things about Chopin because he isn't any of those things
If I may start off with an advice: Try to quote properly, so people know who you're quoting... (in this case it was me).

The point is that if you were to see such a thread, all Chopin lovers (including you?) would be angry, furious and jumping up and down. But if the same thing happens with contemporary music, the minute someone stands up for the music, he's weird, he's trying to push down "your" (not personally speaking) "our" aesthetics and so on...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2080942 - 05/11/13 04:59 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Lemon Pledge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 350
Originally Posted By: tomasino
OK. No takers to the deal. That closes that avenue. I don't know how to respond at this point. That's just too bad, and I feel badly about it.

Tomasino


Um, I just offered not to respond to any of your posts. That's not enough? Are you saying that you won't be comfortable posting here if you think I might be reading your stuff, down here in my ditch, and disagreeing with you? Now I don't know how to respond. I will say that I have enjoyed some of your posts here over the years. I usually take the trouble to read the things you write.

By the way, a "deal" is an arrangement wherein two or more parties each get something they want, in exchange for something else. What you put up was a request, not a deal. And I offered to comply with that request, or at least the part of it that I assumed was important to you, solely out of consideration for your feelings.

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#2080961 - 05/11/13 05:34 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
So let me get this straight. Tomasino believe he has feuds with certain people on PW but those people do not feel mutually about it? Also, what's all this talk about an agreement to add eachother to their ignore lists?! That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

I haven't been following this thread at all so I apologize if this post seems rather random or out of flow with the rest of you.

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#2080980 - 05/11/13 06:11 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Lemon Pledge]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4838
I'm beginning to wonder if I'm on anyone's "Ignore" list. That would make me feel important - that I've managed to upset or annoy somebody enough to want to do that grin.

How would I know? Would I care?

But how would I know whether I'd care, if I don't know? wink

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#2081029 - 05/11/13 08:13 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: bennevis]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: bennevis
I'm beginning to wonder if I'm on anyone's "Ignore" list. That would make me feel important - that I've managed to upset or annoy somebody enough to want to do that grin.

How would I know? Would I care?

But how would I know whether I'd care, if I don't know? wink


You don't know for certain unless they announce it in some fashion. Generally, if you are responding to a users' posts but they never respond to yours, that's a clue.

I think I'm on some lists, but don't really know. It's no big deal (and it doesn't make me feel important - it doesn't make me feel much of anything, actually). I'd much rather people not read my posts than be continually annoyed by them. Sometimes I encourage them to put me on their list, if it seems the smart thing to do.

I wish the forum software would have the option for more complete ignorance (is that the right usage?). It's nice when you just don't see any indication of an ignored user's posts, if for no other reason that it reduced clutter on the screen. And the toggle display function seems to be a bugaboo for some - maybe that should go away.

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#2081037 - 05/11/13 08:36 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6215
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: wr

I wish the forum software would have the option for more complete ignorance (is that the right usage?).

I believe there's already plenty of that in the world. grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2081046 - 05/11/13 09:00 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: JoelW]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
So let me get this straight. Tomasino believe he has feuds with certain people on PW but those people do not feel mutually about it? Also, what's all this talk about an agreement to add eachother to their ignore lists?! That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

I haven't been following this thread at all so I apologize if this post seems rather random or out of flow with the rest of you.

First of all, Joel, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! yippie

Second of all, yes, you do have it straight. Maybe one of the strangest dialogues I've ever read on PW.

Since the "Ignore" button can be used by anyone at anytime without announcing it, there's absolutely no reason to announce it other than to insult the other person. It serves no other purpose than to announce to your intended target that you're using it. And guess what? Even then, there's no proof at all that it really IS being used. crazy crazy

Reminds me of what we did as kids. When our playmates said nasty and evil things, we'd cover our ears with our hands, close our eyes, and yell at the top of our lungs, "I can't see you! I can't hear you! Ha, ha, I can't hear a single thing you're saying!"

Is this where we have arrived at PW??

Frankly, I can't imagine ever wanting to use "Ignore". There is no one at PW that I would ever want to ignore. Many times I've read a post that I found silly, irritating, or downright offensive one day, and then read a very thoughtful or insightful post the very next day from the very same person. Such is the nature of being human.

None of us are saints. We cannot say everything perfectly every day. But we all have something to say, and if we cannot say it right on Saturday, then maybe on Tuesday. grin


Edited by Old Man (05/11/13 09:35 PM)

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#2081053 - 05/11/13 09:15 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: carey]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: wr

I wish the forum software would have the option for more complete ignorance (is that the right usage?).

I believe there's already plenty of that in the world. grin

thumb thumb LMAO!!

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#2081066 - 05/11/13 09:51 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19655
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: wr

I wish the forum software would have the option for more complete ignorance (is that the right usage?).

I believe there's already plenty of that in the world. grin

thumb thumb LMAO!!

Darn right ha ....and IMO we learn from this that another noun form is needed for the current meaning.
I think "ignortion" would seem to be best. grin

I've never used the formal "Ignore" thing either, but as some people have said, we are capable of ignoring whatever we want without using that thing. I've been "honored" by a few members who have announced that they've put me on Ignore, usually with my encouragement and enthusiasm ha ....and then usually, to my disappointment, they would reply to me some more anyway, saying that they had "toggled" my posts.

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#2081081 - 05/11/13 10:50 PM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Old Man]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: JoelW
So let me get this straight. Tomasino believe he has feuds with certain people on PW but those people do not feel mutually about it? Also, what's all this talk about an agreement to add eachother to their ignore lists?! That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

I haven't been following this thread at all so I apologize if this post seems rather random or out of flow with the rest of you.

First of all, Joel, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! yippie

Second of all, yes, you do have it straight. Maybe one of the strangest dialogues I've ever read on PW.

Since the "Ignore" button can be used by anyone at anytime without announcing it, there's absolutely no reason to announce it other than to insult the other person. It serves no other purpose than to announce to your intended target that you're using it. And guess what? Even then, there's no proof at all that it really IS being used. crazy crazy

Reminds me of what we did as kids. When our playmates said nasty and evil things, we'd cover our ears with our hands, close our eyes, and yell at the top of our lungs, "I can't see you! I can't hear you! Ha, ha, I can't hear a single thing you're saying!"

Is this where we have arrived at PW??

Frankly, I can't imagine ever wanting to use "Ignore". There is no one at PW that I would ever want to ignore. Many times I've read a post that I found silly, irritating, or downright offensive one day, and then read a very thoughtful or insightful post the very next day from the very same person. Such is the nature of being human.

None of us are saints. We cannot say everything perfectly every day. But we all have something to say, and if we cannot say it right on Saturday, then maybe on Tuesday. grin


Thanks, Old Man. smile

And I pretty much agree with everything in this post.

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#2081134 - 05/12/13 12:56 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: wr]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: antony


Babbitt's quote perfectly encapsulates the modernist shift from artist as a servant and the entire historical function of art to art as pure fancy and intellectual indulgence


Except that it wasn't a "modernist shift". Try Gesualdo. Beethoven wrote plenty of advanced music that was "intellectual indulgence" intended for musically literate connoisseurs, and he would be mightily offended at the idea of composer as servant.

Yes, you could say Beethoven was the first modernist, and he may have been offended but he was still a human being and that doesn't make him right. I don't mean servant in the literal sense as in one who would carry the luggage, but one who's duty is to *serve the spirit and function of art which had always been to put people in accord with their world during their time.
People love to reference Beethoven's late works as a means of supporting the idea of "too difficult at first listen position" but there are many many moments of those late works which are highly accessible. I would argue that the waldstein is as ethereal transcendent and simultaneously more accessible than the last trio of sonatas or the late string quartets.

Speaking of Babbitt, I took a class with a protege of his who writes fractal music and he didn't like late Beethoven and said it was "weird"
I think it was a short work by Soloman that did a lot to perpetuate the late Beethoven as mystic idea


But what makes your version of the purpose of art the right one? Or the only one?

Or, what if those artists who are doing art as "pure fancy and intellectual indulgence" are in fact "putting people in accord with their world during their time". They may not be affecting all people in that way, but then, no artist does. If Babbitt's music in some way puts me in accord with my world (and I think it does), then I think it has served that higher purpose, according to your specifications.

I thought of some more examples of pre-Modernist purists than just Gesualdo and Beethoven, after I posted. One of the more interesting ones is Liszt, who often enough is accused of the exact opposite of of art for its own sake - which is that he unashamedly pandered to the masses with empty virtuosic bombast (a view I don't subscribe to, BTW). What's fascinating is that by the end of his life, he was composing music that was so utterly detached from anything anyone around him understood that not even Wagner, his buddy in "Music of the Future", could figure out what he was up to.

Liszt's friend Alkan (who was also a friend and neighbor of Chopin) wrote a large amount of music that was so unusual and private that it rarely, if ever, reached "the man on the street", but some his colleagues knew about it. Anton Rubinstein even dedicated his 5th piano concerto to Alkan.


It's not "my definition" of art, it's an historical fact. Art without function is a recent development. Great works of transcendent beauty were born out of function: Sistine chapel, the Pieta, Bach's Masses.

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#2081214 - 05/12/13 06:29 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomtomasino]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: tomtomasino
I'm still around, still thinking sometimes contentious thoughts about music and related topics, and wondering if I should share them with you. It's a serious question.

Over the years I've become a target for several piano world participants who seem to be laying in wait for me whenever I submit a post. They jump up and pounce on me. I've taken one or two of them on from time to time and held my own pretty well--but to no avail. They just lay lower in the ditch. It's not fun, and it can be very time consuming. I end up writing so carefully and slowly, trying very hard to cause no offense--and still be clear in my thought--but cause offense I do. Some of my ideas may be a bubble off center, I know, and sometimes even contentious. Still, I feel we all ought to be given the latitude necessary to express unconventional and difficult to articulate ideas without having to deal with those who are looking to take offense. And so, a number of months ago when I was pounced upon in just such a matter, I simply decided to let Piano World go for awhile.

My good friend Daniel, more familiar to you all as Ridicosolamente, and who I got to know while he was doing grad work here in Minnesota, sent me an email and attached this thread. Thank you, Daniel. It made me think maybe I should let my irritation with those few participants go for awhile, as I have gotten a good deal out of sharing ideas with many of you over quite a few years. I miss that. So, I'll cautiously take a step in and see what happens.

Tomasino


To the question initiating this thread, "where is Tomasino?"--Tomasino is gone.
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2081262 - 05/12/13 08:57 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: tomasino]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5220
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: tomasino
To the question initiating this thread, "where is Tomasino?"--Tomasino is gone.
This is almost a pity. While I will miss your posts, I'm not happy that you decided to attempt to silence others towards you in order to stay and if so you are gone. It almost feels like a blackmail... frown

Sorry
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2081270 - 05/12/13 09:25 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: Ferdinand]
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 2039
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
I meant gone from the thread. I've tuned out of the discussion. Don' wanna talk about it no more. No one get's the last word just yet. Stay tuned for other fine posts.

Tomasino


Edited by tomasino (05/12/13 09:33 AM)
_________________________
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10


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#2081278 - 05/12/13 09:44 AM Re: Where is tomasino [Re: antony]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: antony

It's not "my definition" of art, it's an historical fact. Art without function is a recent development. Great works of transcendent beauty were born out of function: Sistine chapel, the Pieta, Bach's Masses.


I am not convinced that it is a fact. Music has never seemed particularly "functional" to me, and it seems to have stymied a lot of people who actually try to figure this stuff out. And just because some artist gets commissioned to create the work isn't a functional definition of the art itself.

If I throw a dinner party and hire Composer X to supply some music for it, and that music is still played 200 years later, but in concert halls, the original "function" of the music is totally lost. But the music itself still works. That tells me that the function is irrelevant, and it is the music for its own sake that matters.

Some of the oldest human artistic products that I know about are designs found on ancient pottery shards, and there's no apparent reason they are there, other than for the pleasure people must have taken in making them, and the pleasure the users of the pottery have in looking at them. I've never read any convincing "functional" reason of why people all over the globe all seem to have started decorating their functional utensils with extraneous designs at a certain level of their development, but they do.

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