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The problem comes from the fact that the ceiling in the piano room is wood interlocking boards not sheetrock. The boards do not provide a complete barrier for moisture going up into the eves of the roof. The roof is vented. But still, moisture collects on the underside of the roof and freezes due to how cold it is outside. Later in the day,when the sun hits the roof and warms it up,the condensation melts and produces drips. It's only in one particular area of the ceiling that this occurs. Luckily, not near the piano!!! We've had our builder out to check things out. I think the problem is unique to having a wood ceiling. Sheetrock would provide a more complete barrier.

Ultimately, the effort to humidify the whole house has been a failure as far as I'm concerned. My piano tuner is not unhappy with the stability of my piano. I just think it's time to do something that has a more proven reliability. It's likey we will not live forever in this house. I'm not parting with the piano. EVER!!! I'll talk to my piano tech. And the technician who did a lot of the regulation and voicing of the piano. My hygrometer is close enough to what my piano tech measures when she comes. At best the house is in the high 30s. Not good enough for the piano.

Is the area above the ceiling insulated? Has spray insulation been considered?

The space behind the ceiling is insulated. It doesn't matter. The problem is the the moist air passes through the spaces between the boards. Granted, the spaces are small. But the board ard fitted together and not glued together. So air definitely passes from the room to the space behind. And the moist air continues past the isulation to condense on the back side of the roof. The roof is freezing cold. So, the condensation also collects an freezes. Then the roof warms up and it all melts at once. It only happens when it is really, really cold out and the humidity difference between inside and outside is extreme. As I said, we've had he builder look at the problem. The roof is vented. There isn't any more venting to be done. We just have to keep the humidity from gettng too high inside when it is very dry and cold outside. Most of the year with not temperature problems, I'm happy with how the whole house humidifier works and how it keeps my piano stable. It's the few cold months in the middle of the winter that we have problems. I don't believe sprayed in insulation would change anything. Not unless it is a complete air tight barrier. The least costly solution to the problem seems to be to get a DC for the piano.

Hi Dynamobt,

What your ceiling needs is a vapor barrier between the ceiling material and the insulation in the attic. It doesn't really matter whether the ceiling is drywall, wood, or any other permeable material -- when inside air passes through it and meets cold air, it will fall below its "dew point" temperature. At that point, the vapor in the air condenses into water and soaks whatever* is below it. Drywall and wood are both permeable, though some drywall comes with a vapor barrier on one side.

Many contractors don't understand this.

In a cold climate, the more you humidify a house that doesn't have a good vapor barrier, the more condensation you'll have. You can severely damage a house very quickly if you let condensation collect.

Good luck,

Andy

AndyJ, this makes the most sense of any explaination I have heard. Only problem is that without taking the ceiling down completely, I don't see how a vapor barrier can be installed now. The solution is easy. We can't humidify the house to the degree we'd like. All the more reason for me to get a Dampp Chaser system for my piano. I'm going to have to do some convincing of my husband that our plan to humidify the house instead of the piano has been a bust. But, I will work on him. I see the Dampp Chaser as my only solution at this point. We have survived not humidifying the house before the piano. I just won't push it past 30%.

I agree.

Well, depends on the climate. Sometimes you put the vapor barrier on the house side of the insulation, sometimes on the other side, and in areas like mine with both hot and cold weather it can be hard to decide.

Beyond the condensation problem, once your insulation becomes moist it loses its effectiveness.

I think you have two problems: too much infiltration (movement of air) and lack of vapor barrier (movement of humidity).

Drywall would stop the infiltration, though not nearly as well as plaster. But it is not a vapor barrier.

Gee, I've got bigger problems than I realized. Seems I have opened a huge can of worms. I don't know what to do now. The room we are talking about is 44' x 21' in dimension. This is not a small undertaking to fix. I can sit my husband down and have him read this thread. It was enough to be considering the Dampp Chaser system. I'm a bit overwhelmed by the other issues discovered in this thread. I don't see us pulling the entire ceiling down in the room. I simply can't go there in my mind. I'm trying to think what else to say. And I am speechless.

Don't panic! If the piano room's ceiling is made from tongue-in-groove wood, your house is probably pretty old. And if it's pretty old, it's apparently survived being occupied for many years without serious humidity damage. If you're having condensation problems now that you didn't have before, it's probably from setting the humidity higher than it should be. A simple solution would be to turn the humidity down to preserve the house and install a Dampp-Chaser to preserve the piano.

I see you live in New Hampshire. In that climate, vapor barriers should be on the inside to protect the insulation. You can apply vapor-barrier paint throughout the house and greatly reduce moisture problems -- but the wood ceiling would need some extra attention.

Good luck,

Andy

The piano room is not old. The other half of the house is 40 years old. But the big room we built as a great room and for the piano is less than 5 years old.

Still, we didn't have problems until we put the piano in here and I tried to humidify the room for the benefit of the piano. We will, of course, be turning down the whole house humidifier so as not to create more problems with the ceiling. If we can come out of all this with only having to have installed the Dampp-Chaser system in the piano, then, I think we dodged a disaster.

I say "whole house" humidifier. But it is really "this room" humidifier since the other part of the house is on forced hot water heat and this new room is on forced hot air with the added system. Before we had this big room built, the piano was in the other part of the house with a room humidifier with no problems. It's this darned "I had to have pine wood ceiling", that is at the root of the problem!!

We're just not going to contribute anymore to the potential of condensation. As my husband said when I started telling him all this: "Don't ask these questions", he said!!!

The danger with all that condensation for the roof structure will be rotting wood. You might have condensation up there even though it is not leaking though the ceiling. This might be a bit strange, but what if you quit trying to humidify the room in winter and let the RH naturally be 25% or so on cold days, and use a de humidifier in the summer to take the moisture out. The piano will be fairly stable if the RH is 25% to 35% year round. You want to avoid RH below 25% if possible though. I can't imagine 25% RH will condensate the roof structure though I could be wrong.

In my Chicago home I had to turn down the furnace humidifier to 25% during outside temps below zero or the windows would condensate. Yes the piano went a bit flat. When the outside temps were in the 30's, I'd run 40% RH without problems.

You could check into insulating right underneath the roof with bat insulation, however, you must use spacers between the roof and the insulation and vent the spacers to the outside air to prevent condensation.

If nothing works, maybe this should be a home theatre room, and move the piano back where it was?

Boy, this is getting complicated. Honestly, I think I would:

1. Keep the humidity levels reasonably comfortable in the winter (room humidifier) and reasonably comfortable in the summer (air conditioning).

2. Give the piano an extra tuning per year if necessary (2 instead of 3, etc).

3. Enjoy the piano.

*edit* an extra tuning would be 3 instead of 2, not 2 instead of 3! Typing before sufficient caffeine.

I had the same condensation issues with my Chicago workshop in the winter. I had a small gas fired furnace hanging from the ceiling in one corner. I hung bat type insulation (with paper moisture barrier) underneath the roof sheathing - and had condensation. That's how I found out a spacer between the insulation and roof sheathing is required. So I ripped that out, and installed 2" thick insulated panels for a ceiling, however, there were gaps between that allowed air to reach the "attic" space and condensate.

What I really needed was a proper ceiling, with a vapor barrier and insulation.

I did not use a humidifier in there.....i kept the heat at about 50F when I was not in there, so the RH didn't drop much below 35% on cold days, and was often much higher than that.

So, I've been there and done that, and I can relate to the OP's issues.

The problem hasn't gone on long. I would hope I have caught it before major damage. It would be cost prohibitive to tear the ceiling out of this room!!! The solution to me is to turn the whole house unit down to a level that condensation won't form in the severe cold.

I'm calling my piano technician today about installing the Dampp-Chaser system. I figure I will get it installed soon. Then wait until July to give the piano a tuning after it has adjusted to regular humidity.

Piano or not, your great room needs a vapor barrier.

For decades, vapor barriers have been standard practice and, in many cases, the law, in "wintery" regions. Your addition was built under five years ago without a vapor barrier? I think you need to first talk to the contractor. And then see a lawyer.

Called my piano technician about getting the Dampp-Chaser. I appreciate all the input and response to my questions. Some things I can do. Some things I can't do. My husband wouldn't stop me from contacting our contractor or getting a lawyer. But, it's clear he wouldn't be too thilled if I did. I have to let this drop at this point.

I do thank people for their contributions to this thread.

If you don't have a vapor barrier, the condensation will prevent the insulation from doing its work, and you just might find that you develop a mold problem. Most areas have a codes requirement that requires a vapor barrier. If your contractor didn't follow this, and the codes department didn't catch it, you have a very good case for negligence. It isn't clear why your husband would be against having a healthy home, but that isn't any of our business.
Regards,

When I removed that insulation from under the roof sheathing, it was soaked, smelly, and moldy. The roof sheathing had areas of mildew on it as well. I was amazed at how wet everything was. Condensation can lead to serious damage.

Talked with my builder and my piano technician. The thought is that the vapor barrier is working too well and trapping moisture in the room giving it nowhere to go.

My piano technician thinks I take wonderful care of my piano and that the piano is in great shape. She honestly doesn't think I need the Dampp-Chaser system. Though, I will probably go ahead and get it installed for peace of mind.

I have not turned a blind eye to potential problems. But, we aren't the type of people who sue other people. If there was a real problem, we would deal with it. The consensus is that I'm overreacting. There's no need to accuse either my husband or myself of not caring about the condition of our house or our own health. I started this thread because I care about my piano and want to take the best care of it that I can. And having talked with my piano technician, I believe I am doing just that.

Somebody is contradicted here, as the above can't be true if what you posted earlier is correct: i.e.,

" Moisture gets behind the wood through the seams between the boards. When the temperature outside is hugely contasted with inside, we get condensation freezing on the underside of the roof."

You want the vapor barrier to be as much of a barrier as possible. Is it possible that you don't have adequate ventilation above the insulation? If so, your attic is in dire need of venting.
Regards,

This was my supposition. Not necessarily true. The roof is fully vented with sofits at the eaves. We had the builder out to see if there was anything more that could be done. There isn't.

We were clearly trying to humidify the room more than it could handle.
I will put a Dampp-Chaser in the piano. The room was fine before I got obsessive about humidity for the piano's sake.

Thank you for your concern.