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#2080962 - 05/11/13 05:35 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Ok...

As I said, I don't think there's absolutely any violation of anything from any member (any, any, any... brrr...).

As a composer myself I do think of my every work as my baby! But I'm very open to changing things, getting errors fixed (typos of notes, or whatever else)...

In any case I think this thread can rest now (and I can go to bed, since it's after midnight where I live! ;))
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#2080965 - 05/11/13 05:41 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Oh, there's one thing that requires elaboration perhaps:

My subjective experience vs Steve's subjective experience.

You are right, if I thought my theme couldn't possibly be improved upon even in principle, then there'd be no point for Steve to try it. But then, we must ask what are composers aiming for? Popularity? I think my musical sensibility is closer to those of the vast majority of people, so my judgmenet is probably the winner if we begin to judge things in terms of popularity. I've received a lot of positive feedback for my improvisation from non-musicians, so this isn't just idle speculation.

But if not popularity, then recognition among other classical composers? Well, I certainly don't have the potential to rise to such heights, due to the musical poverty of my environment during my critical periods of brain development, so that's something I'm simply not interested in.

So we are left with popularity and .... subjective experience. Of course, from my point of view, my own subjective experience is more important than Steve's. So yes, it doesn't make any sense for him to give me advise on improving my theme if from my perspective he is unable to actually improve it. And this is where proving that he can comes in.

Makes sense doesn't it? It does to me.

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#2080966 - 05/11/13 05:47 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
How do you count popularity? By the number of sales? The number of performances? The number of youtube views? Any of those can be an indication, but not the true thing...

Everyone (I think) starts composing for their own shake, as have you. If it wasn't for the Internet and youtube, the reception of your piece would be tiny (as it would for my works actually and most probably Steve's works, or Charles works, though I will admit that them being in the States would have better chances than me being in Greece).

BUT: Music is also about technique and experience. And apparently you are greatly lacking in these fields, while Steve (and other composers) isn't. So there's every logical sense to provide some feedback to this. No?

But again: You're missing the part were any composer can prove their worth (should they chose to, while it's not necessary) by their own works, not by reworking YOUR work. A composer who won't sit to provide your left hand in the other thread isn't incapable of doing or worst than you: He just doesn't want to do it!
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#2080991 - 05/11/13 06:31 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2758
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Nikolas, I hope you've gone to bed. Way back on page 1 when Medium made his first reply to Chris Goslow (who seems to have disappeared from this conversation) he mentioned having bad experiences on forums. At the time that raised just a tiny red flag because the first response in this thread was positive yet Medium's first reply talks about bad experiences. Where the heck could that have come from? I think we now know. In 9 years on this forum I've never used the ignore function. I now find myself considering it. Remember when AJF's sig included a bit of advice about never wrestling with a pig?

I'm quite sure Medium never read the other thread where Mark Gordon took some forum advice and improved his piece. I feel certain at this point Medium will never take any advice we offer him and it would seem he'll never actually make the effort to find my music or yours and listen to it. After my last comment I don't have any desire to say anything further to Medium. So Nikolas my advice to you is don't feed the troll.

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#2081011 - 05/11/13 07:04 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Nikolas, I hope you've gone to bed. Way back on page 1 when Medium made his first reply to Chris Goslow (who seems to have disappeared from this conversation) he mentioned having bad experiences on forums. At the time that raised just a tiny red flag because the first response in this thread was positive yet Medium's first reply talks about bad experiences. Where the heck could that have come from? I think we now know. In 9 years on this forum I've never used the ignore function. I now find myself considering it. Remember when AJF's sig included a bit of advice about never wrestling with a pig?

I'm quite sure Medium never read the other thread where Mark Gordon took some forum advice and improved his piece. I feel certain at this point Medium will never take any advice we offer him and it would seem he'll never actually make the effort to find my music or yours and listen to it. After my last comment I don't have any desire to say anything further to Medium. So Nikolas my advice to you is don't feed the troll.


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#2081178 - 05/12/13 03:29 AM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Nikolas, I hope you've gone to bed. Way back on page 1 when Medium made his first reply to Chris Goslow (who seems to have disappeared from this conversation) he mentioned having bad experiences on forums. At the time that raised just a tiny red flag because the first response in this thread was positive yet Medium's first reply talks about bad experiences. Where the heck could that have come from?


Here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2078939/Music%20the%20kind%20of%20which%20you've.html

Notice BruceD's attempts to humiliate me for no reason at all. ALL I HAD DONE WAS OFFER WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE BEAUTIFUL MUSIC FOR PEOPLE TO LISTEN TO, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. Instead of just telling me whether they liked the piece and why, you all start harassing me about whatever stupid sh*t that comes to your minds.

If Steve is considering ignoring me, he should know that my own subjective experience of him is certainly not more positive. So I'd say the bad experience is mutual. I'm a patient dude, but my patience ends when people can only see their own frustration and not that of their chosen "opponent", especially when everyone here STARTED CONFRONTATIONAL, Steve with his very first message in this thread. And then he complains when someone responds in kind? Calling me a troll is just what solipsistic self-righteous can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees clowns like that would do.

You came to my thread with off-topic hostile comments, so who's the troll, fool? I never, ever asked for advice on how to compose. So why the bleep do you feel compelled to offer me any? I think I know better than you what I asked for when I started this thread, although that shouldn't be the case since I was very clear about that in my first message.

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#2081261 - 05/12/13 08:50 AM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Ok

I will attempt to explain a few things, if I may.

In your 40something posts you've promoted your impros and melody, and nothing else. I don't even think you've said the word "Thank you". In fact I did a search and found out that you've never mentioned the word "thank". Perhaps the search function is broken, but I'm not sure I've seen it.

This means that you came here, to some members who are here for a LOONG time (decade?), with A LOT of posts (10,000 or more), with amazing credentials (MMus, PhDs, etc) and you are not thanking them for the time to listen...

You are promoting your works with words and descriptions that sounds extremely promising: "wonderful", "It's a chance of a lifetime basically", " I don't usually reach heights like these.", etc. And I'm afraid that the result is not such! Especially for people who have been dealing with music all their lives, are professionals in their music field and care deeply, not only for music, but for this place and the other members as well.

Honestly, just check the other thread here, listen to some music (after all if you compose you should (I assume) enjoy listening to music, so why not listen to some that's right here?), check the replies and how other people react and learn from it.

If you want to feel that I'm preaching, feel free. If you want to call me anything feel free. If you want to feel that I'm putting you down, I'm not, but feel free once more. There's no way I can make you read this post in the manner that I mean it: In a nice way.

PS. Bruce and Steve are two of the nicest forum members here (Morodiene as well), so it's very surprising that somehow all three seem to be attacking you, according to yourself... :-/
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#2081289 - 05/12/13 10:08 AM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Nikolas]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Quotations from three different messages of mine:

"Thanks for bringing this to my attention"

"Thank you. That comment I can relate to. The ending is perhaps my single favorite part even if it is short and simple."

"Thank you very much."

I've thanked every time someone has done something deserving of such a reaction. Obviously, I haven't thanked when someone has posted un-solicited suggestions or otherwise harassed me with nonsense. That would've been both insincere and, frankly, insane if I had.

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#2081377 - 05/12/13 12:46 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2758
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Medium says I was confrontational in my first post in this thread. Having gone back and reread the post I find myself wondering where? I wrote a lengthy post which would best be described as "confrontational" then decided to take my own advice and "not wrestle with a pig." However. I did save it so I can post it later if need be. However, in the interest of giving the benefit of the doubt I thought I'd simply ask where was I confrontational in my first post. For your benefit I've quoted it here (and I didn't even fix the typo).
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Interesting point. Every composer has to find the sweet spot for themselves. As Ned Rorem put it when asked why he composed, "Because no one else is writing music I like."

However, when a newbie seems to attract another newbie as a devoted fan then we are left to wonder how this happened. Chris and Medium have exchanged pleasantries ion two different threads where no one else got involved until Polyphonist (and now myself) entered the fray here.

Chris I watched and listened to your video in the other thread and found the music nice, but I almost nodded off towards the end. Perhaps I was tired and/or hadn't had enough sleep, but usually music keeps me awake. Some wags would say that puts your music on a par with the Goldberg Variations.

I honestly don't want to give you another bad forum experience. It does seem that there's something about this that seems to invite it. Rather than blame the victim I chose to not respond, until someone else showed interest. The Polyphonist showed up. There are many on this forum who appreciate sophisticated music, such as the Hammerklavier. We want music that has a lot of thought and compositional depth. When Medium Heights tells us he can't edit this into a piece of music that tells us something about his/her skills. I don't have great music recollection either, but I use that to my advantage, to come up with new ideas. Only the ones I can remember are good enough to use as the basis for a piece.

If either of you wants ideas or suggestions on how to improve your thematic ideas I'd be happy to provide some. Based on what I've seen here I'm not sure there's sincere interest in that.

So to give you a few ideas was it one of the following: 1) when I said I almost nodded off while listening to your piece? That was simply relaying a fact, prior to that I said it was nice. 2) Was it my comment about the Goldberg Variations? They were after all composed to help a Count sleep. I don't find anything in the next paragraph that could be construed as confrontational. 3) Perhaps it was my offer to help by offering "ideas or suggestions on how to improve your thematic ideas?" Please tell me.

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#2081393 - 05/12/13 01:37 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Please tell me.


You have to read between the lines. The confrontation came from the implication that our perspectives were invalid and that our musical experiences as listeners weren't objectively valid regardless of how much we enjoyed our own creations. You offered advice no one had solicited, or at least I had not, anywhere, ever. You offered it despite realising on some level that this was the case. Then you used this realisation as a weapon, implying it was a personal deficit in us.

In any case, it is impolite to not restrict your advice to what has been solicited. Imagine, for example, being depressed and having all these people around you telling you to cheer up and how to cheer up. Do you really need that kind of attention in that context? Heck no! Yet people often impose their hyper social selves on such "deviants" quite without mercy. Sorry, but it makes me angry. It is a culture I despise because it's based on narcissism, lack of true empathy, and simply pure idiocy. I have no use for that in my personal life and I have no use for it in my internet life.


Edited by Medium Heights (05/12/13 01:45 PM)
Edit Reason: slight revision

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#2081410 - 05/12/13 02:19 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2758
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Please tell me.


You have to read between the lines.

So it was all in your head. In my experience life is much easier if I confine my comments to what people actually say. Criticizing people for what you think they mean will only get you in trouble, because people can only be held to what they actually say. When I was younger I may have been a hothead, but the internet didn't exist so I didn't have the opportunity embarrass myself worldwide. Still it was hard won maturity that has me being very careful about what I actually say. Funny thing I discovered is that people like me better this way, except for the occasional person who chooses to "read between the lines" and ascribe motives and intent that are usually in their mind only. For the most part my life is more peaceful as a result.

BTW, by posting your piece in the Composers Forum you asked for advice, that's the culture here. Ignorance of that fact is no excuse. All you had to do was lurk for a while and it would have been obvious. In fact the thread about Mark Gordon's piece was literally a day or two before you posted this piece. Hasn't it always been standard netiquette to get the feel for a forum prior to making your first post?

What's that line from the Don Henley song? "Have you ever noticed that an angry man, can only get so far, until he reconciles the way he thinks things ought to be, with the way things are."

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#2081434 - 05/12/13 03:39 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Please tell me.


You have to read between the lines.

So it was all in your head. In my experience life is much easier if I confine my comments to what people actually say. Criticizing people for what you think they mean will only get you in trouble, because people can only be held to what they actually say. When I was younger I may have been a hothead, but the internet didn't exist so I didn't have the opportunity embarrass myself worldwide. Still it was hard won maturity that has me being very careful about what I actually say. Funny thing I discovered is that people like me better this way, except for the occasional person who chooses to "read between the lines" and ascribe motives and intent that are usually in their mind only. For the most part my life is more peaceful as a result.

BTW, by posting your piece in the Composers Forum you asked for advice, that's the culture here. Ignorance of that fact is no excuse. All you had to do was lurk for a while and it would have been obvious. In fact the thread about Mark Gordon's piece was literally a day or two before you posted this piece. Hasn't it always been standard netiquette to get the feel for a forum prior to making your first post?

What's that line from the Don Henley song? "Have you ever noticed that an angry man, can only get so far, until he reconciles the way he thinks things ought to be, with the way things are."


So you are still claiming, as you implied in your very first message, that I have poor character because I don't want advice on composition or, alternatively, I have poor character because I started this thread in the first place. (Did you even read what I wrote in my previous message?)

The description of this forum section says that one can ask questions from composers here. Now there are many kinds of questions. While it's true that the description doesn't specify that you can offer your own material to be reused by someone more skilled, it also doesn't say that that isn't possible, or that if you do, then you must also want to learn to compose as well regardless of your protests to the contrary.

I think if this "culture" you speak of were as strict and, not to put too much emphasis on it, silly as you claim, both of my threads here would have been locked soon after I made them. That's about as much as I need to know about the "culture" specific to this forum section.


Edited by Medium Heights (05/12/13 03:54 PM)
Edit Reason: slight revision

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#2082014 - 05/13/13 05:35 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Quaver Pyjama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 114
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIkwGfBfNHE
Is there no room for improvement? Could you not improve some of the harmonies?
Of course it would become something slightly different from the original - then again everything is unique (even the same piece can be interpreted differently by only one person, for our mood and personality changes and evolves).
Do you consider these equally good?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dckK8KmkTs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xm7s9eGxU

Don't you think that maybe the first one simply doesn't offer what the second one does? That it could be improved?

I would also like to say that I don't like your attitude - you cook an 'inspired meal' and refuse to accept the fact that some cooks spend their lives improving their food, from the simplest salad to the most complex Soufflé, and it actually becomes better (and different, of course! Life is evolution!)
The analogy sucks, but whatever....

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#2082098 - 05/13/13 08:25 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7647
Loc: New York City
This thread needs to be locked, or the discussion needs to be ended somehow. Several members have unsuccessfully attempted to get the OP to see the light, but he obstinately refuses to take any suggestions, or be told that there is room for improvement. With a poster like this, there's not too much you can do...I'm afraid Nikolas and Steve are wasting their time at this point.
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Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2082130 - 05/13/13 09:30 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Polyphonist]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
This thread needs to be locked, or the discussion needs to be ended somehow. Several members have unsuccessfully attempted to get the OP to see the light, but he obstinately refuses to take any suggestions, or be told that there is room for improvement. With a poster like this, there's not too much you can do...I'm afraid Nikolas and Steve are wasting their time at this point.


From the very beginning, I've always thought and admitted there was a lot of room for improvement, of the improvisation. I don't think there's room for improving the ten-second melody, but I could be wrong here, as I've said a few times already in this thread.

So I guess the problem, really, is people like you who apparently can't comprehend simple written English. Are you a remotely mind controlled zombie slave or what? grin

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#2082131 - 05/13/13 09:31 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Why should the thread be locked or ended? If people want to keep engaging with Medium Heights what's the harm? Conversely, anyone who finds the discussion pointless or irritating can just stop reading the thread.

(ETA: personal insults though, that's something I do see threads getting locked for here.)


Edited by PianoStudent88 (05/13/13 09:33 PM)
Edit Reason: Crosspost
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#2082132 - 05/13/13 09:39 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: PianoStudent88]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Why should the thread be locked or ended? If people want to keep engaging with Medium Heights what's the harm? Conversely, anyone who finds the discussion pointless or irritating can just stop reading the thread.

(ETA: personal insults though, that's something I do see threads getting locked for here.)


It was always personal, I'm just making it obvious so we can trash this trainwreck of a thread. I contacted the mod in regards to another similar case yesterday, and asked if he could remove all the off-topic messages, but received no response (although the message had been read), so I guess this is the only way to let it die in this case.

People can still listen to the piece and send me comments via PM if they so wish. They can still listen to the piece and compose their own using material from it and start a new thread about it if they so wish.

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