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#2078753 - 05/07/13 10:23 AM Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Well, at least parts of it and the basic theme are much to my liking. Fortunately I recorded it while playing it on my digital piano.

It's in two parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g22DEKWEDC0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-G_C6WQGYU

Yeah, it's an old one. Sigh. If anybody really, really likes it it'd again be awesome if they made a version (sort of improved director's cut maybe) of it on sheet music and published it here. I pretty much only ever "improvise" (i.e. hit keys semi randomly, using my eyes more than my ears), because I can't properly read music.

I also don't have a good musical recollection, so I'm unable to re-play these sorts of improvisations, let alone notate them unless I subject myself to inhuman working conditions.

Well, whether you want to play it yourself or do anything with it, I welcome feedback anyway. Hopefully someone will at least enjoy listening to it.

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#2079624 - 05/09/13 02:54 AM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Chris Goslow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 49
Loc: California, USA
Hey Medium Heights:

I listened to both parts. Nice. There's a simple quality that is quite expressive and evocative. It has its own musical integrity, not grandiose or virtuosic yet still interesting. And there's a development that maintains it's own freshness throughout the twelve minutes, like it still has something to say throughout.
_________________________
Pianist/Composer/Songwriter/Music Artist website: http://www.chrisgoslow.com
My Piano Teaching website: http://www.pianolessonsinsacramento.com

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#2079800 - 05/09/13 11:24 AM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Chris Goslow]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Thank you very much.

I think I need a short break from these forums due to having allowed myself to get entangled in arguments I'm not interested in and that induce cynicism in me, but I'll get back to your recordings in a few days. I think I'll probably purchase your album if I can't think of an excuse not to. Haven't listened to the samples yet, but I'd be surprised if they weren't worth a little bit of patronage especially considering everything else you've made freely available and plan to in the future.

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#2079847 - 05/09/13 01:40 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Chris Goslow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 49
Loc: California, USA
Hy Medium Heights:
Sorry to hear you've had some bad experiences on forums. I understand why you feel that way. A lot of people have felt that way. I have certainly in the past. Yet I have found that if I stay positive and focus on talking with positive like-minded people like yourself, it usually goes well. I just ignore the cyber-drama as best I can.

I appreciate your interest in my music. Might I suggest you sign up on my e-mail list? It' s a great way to stay in touch, as well as hear about future releases I put out, etc. Visit here and enter your info on the right side bar (also gives you a free MP3 of my piano music).

Be well,

Chris
_________________________
Pianist/Composer/Songwriter/Music Artist website: http://www.chrisgoslow.com
My Piano Teaching website: http://www.pianolessonsinsacramento.com

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#2079858 - 05/09/13 02:12 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Chris Goslow]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Wise words.

Originally Posted By: Chris Goslow
Visit here and enter your info on the right side bar


Done.

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#2079872 - 05/09/13 02:46 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Chris Goslow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 49
Loc: California, USA
Awesome. Let me know what you think of the download. It's one of the tracks from my "Waterfall" CD.
_________________________
Pianist/Composer/Songwriter/Music Artist website: http://www.chrisgoslow.com
My Piano Teaching website: http://www.pianolessonsinsacramento.com

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#2079902 - 05/09/13 03:53 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Chris Goslow]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Just listened to it. Wait, just listened to it again. It's beautiful and has character, at least to my mind. Exactly what music is all about, to me: beauty and character. Even having listened to some of your other stuff, I was pleasantly surprised.

You're certainly doing something valuable with your time when you create all this music and make it available. It's a shame if more people don't figure that out. I'd imagine there are tons of people for whom something like Hammerklavier is too inaccessible but music like this would be just perfect. I can't imagine the market is so saturated that there's no chance of reaching all those people, so I'd certainly encourage you to keep soldiering on.

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#2079935 - 05/09/13 05:05 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Chris Goslow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/11
Posts: 49
Loc: California, USA
Wow, thanks! I shall definitely continue solidering on... it makes a difference when I get positive feedback from people like yourself. Much appreciated.
_________________________
Pianist/Composer/Songwriter/Music Artist website: http://www.chrisgoslow.com
My Piano Teaching website: http://www.pianolessonsinsacramento.com

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#2079954 - 05/09/13 05:48 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7520
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
I'd imagine there are tons of people for whom something like Hammerklavier is too inaccessible...

And that would include you, I assume?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2080238 - 05/10/13 09:51 AM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Interesting point. Every composer has to find the sweet spot for themselves. As Ned Rorem put it when asked why he composed, "Because no one else is writing music I like."

However, when a newbie seems to attract another newbie as a devoted fan then we are left to wonder how this happened. Chris and Medium have exchanged pleasantries ion two different threads where no one else got involved until Polyphonist (and now myself) entered the fray here.

Chris I watched and listened to your video in the other thread and found the music nice, but I almost nodded off towards the end. Perhaps I was tired and/or hadn't had enough sleep, but usually music keeps me awake. Some wags would say that puts your music on a par with the Goldberg Variations.

I honestly don't want to give you another bad forum experience. It does seem that there's something about this that seems to invite it. Rather than blame the victim I chose to not respond, until someone else showed interest. The Polyphonist showed up. There are many on this forum who appreciate sophisticated music, such as the Hammerklavier. We want music that has a lot of thought and compositional depth. When Medium Heights tells us he can't edit this into a piece of music that tells us something about his/her skills. I don't have great music recollection either, but I use that to my advantage, to come up with new ideas. Only the ones I can remember are good enough to use as the basis for a piece.

If either of you wants ideas or suggestions on how to improve your thematic ideas I'd be happy to provide some. Based on what I've seen here I'm not sure there's sincere interest in that.

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#2080294 - 05/10/13 11:41 AM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
I know that objectively speaking, Beethoven's op 106 must be rated far above less ambitious music, no matter how perfect that less ambitious music is in its own niche or on its own term or as subjective experience. But I'm not sure there's a reason to try to become more sophisticated unless it's something you feel you need, because it's that subjective experience that matters. I believe, and it has been my experience, that it's possible to enjoy simple music as much as complex music. One's emotional reactions and one's sense of aesthetics don't necessarily demand very sophisticated and ambitious music to be fully satisfied.

I personally find much to admire and enjoy in the Hammerklavier sonata, from all of the movements. I have no trouble listening to it all in one sitting, although I rarely do that. But we didn't all grow up with classical music, so my listening experience of that composition is very likely more shallow, on the whole, than the experience of most people who comment in the pianist corner. There's really nothing I can do about that. I've tried to become a more sophisticated listener for ten years, and I've succeeded very well, but the progress has nevertheless been slow, and initially it was also hard. I had to tolerate a lot of boredom of listening to music I was unable to appreciate, while trying to improve my musical perceptual capacity the only way I knew how (by listening to sophisticated music with attention). I'm now almost thirty years old, and my brain is no longer plastic at all. It wasn't particularly plastic when I started. It's not something I can do anything about. I believe I'm already past the point at which I should start and can better use my time if I focus only on music that I, personally, find effective. That's not to exclude difficult works or sophisticated stuff, but it does mean I shouldn't exclude less ambitious music just because I want to appear monocled to my supposed peers.


Edited by Medium Heights (05/10/13 11:57 AM)

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#2080299 - 05/10/13 11:53 AM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler

If either of you wants ideas or suggestions on how to improve your thematic ideas I'd be happy to provide some.


To add to my previous message: I want to make it very clear that, from my subjective perspective -- the only perspective any of us truly has -- my theme in that improvised piece is as it should be. It is, simply put, perfect. It is what it is, it has its own character, I find it beautiful, and I wouldn't know how to make it "better" without changing its character or spoiling its beauty.

You sound delusional when you try to impose your subjective worldview on others. On the other hand, I'm an open minded guy, so if you want to prove me wrong, feel free to attempt to shape my theme into something better while preserving its character. I don't mean that as an impossible challenge. I wouldn't know whether you can do it or not, but to me the theme sounds complete. And .... if you can't do it, then you are essentially just flapping your lips when you are offering us the chance to solicit your advice.

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#2080370 - 05/10/13 02:36 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
You sound delusional when you try to impose your subjective worldview on others.
Aren't we all delusional? Seriously, you post an improvisation and now you tell me it's perfect. I improvised something last night and it was pretty perfect as well, but in hindsight could I make it better if I spent a little time to hone the work? Heck yes! I can reduce the number of repetitions and enhance the density of compositional thought.

It seems that some believe improvisation is the height of musical creation. I feel that's wrong. Improvisation is simply making music in the moment. You recorded yours, but you can't be bothered to transcribe it. To me that sounds lazy. Frankly, I listened to the first three minutes of your part 1 and had to turn it off because the repeating note bothered me. I wanted the harmony to go somewhere (anywhere!) and it became obvious you weren't going to take it anywhere. The nature of your theme was begging for harmonic shift and you were stuck on that one note. That may be a matter of personal taste, but I'm as entitled to mine as you are to yours.

So no I won't try to work your theme. Mostly because you've set this up for me to fail with terms like flapping lips and delusional. That and the fact that I didn't hear the theme played consistently had me wondering what the theme was. But if you'll be kind enough to notate it I'm sure I can make it better from my POV.

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#2080391 - 05/10/13 03:38 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler

If either of you wants ideas or suggestions on how to improve your thematic ideas I'd be happy to provide some.


To add to my previous message: I want to make it very clear that, from my subjective perspective -- the only perspective any of us truly has -- my theme in that improvised piece is as it should be. It is, simply put, perfect. It is what it is, it has its own character, I find it beautiful, and I wouldn't know how to make it "better" without changing its character or spoiling its beauty.

You sound delusional when you try to impose your subjective worldview on others. On the other hand, I'm an open minded guy, so if you want to prove me wrong, feel free to attempt to shape my theme into something better while preserving its character. I don't mean that as an impossible challenge. I wouldn't know whether you can do it or not, but to me the theme sounds complete. And .... if you can't do it, then you are essentially just flapping your lips when you are offering us the chance to solicit your advice.
If you check the various threads here you'll see that most contain some sort of advice here and there... It's quite rare to post something complete that doesn't need anything and when it's done it's usually quite clear that it's a finished product.

In your case Steve (who is a great guy, a great composer and a great forum member) is offering his assistance, and is even kind enough to ask in advance if you're looking for such assistance. And your reply to his offering is the above?

Remind me not to offer any feedback to you... It'd be a waste of time, energy and good thinking! frown

EDIT: And in order to make myself even more clear. Steve can only provide some suggestions which you can agree with or disagree. This can lead to a discussion. In the end nobody can tell you more about your own ACCIDENTAL work than yourself...

And to be clear (as Steve says): An improvisation is a lucky photograph with an iphone at best. An accidental one is the photograph that you took with your iphone, by accident, because you were meant to hit the button later, but missed the timing! Get it?


Edited by Nikolas (05/10/13 03:43 PM)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2080399 - 05/10/13 03:50 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Seriously, you post an improvisation and now you tell me it's perfect.


I meant the first several seconds: the theme. I didn't mean the whole improvisation.

Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
So no I won't try to work your theme.


I thought you said you can create a better theme that's essentially the same as mine. If you can, why wouldn't you? And if you can't, why wouldn't you use mine in your own composition since you have my permission?

Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Frankly, I listened to the first three minutes of your part 1 and had to turn it off because the repeating note bothered me. I wanted the harmony to go somewhere (anywhere!) and it became obvious you weren't going to take it anywhere.


Hmm, maybe that's true for the most part as far as developing the theme as a whole goes, I can't really remember. But as far as the music goes, it's untrue. Try the second link.

That being said .... why does having an expectation of that kind, and letting it spoil your listening experience make you a good critic? Glenn Gould said music is best approached uncritically. I think he meant without unnecessary expectations. You could also change your expectations (if you can't get rid of them) by re-conceptualising that unmoving tone as something meaningful. An ominous thing perhaps, especially when it begins to gain speed in its repetitions.

Of course, sometimes we can't help ourselves, but why would that make us better? Is the problem with us or the music in these cases?

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#2080404 - 05/10/13 03:54 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Nikolas]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler

If either of you wants ideas or suggestions on how to improve your thematic ideas I'd be happy to provide some.


To add to my previous message: I want to make it very clear that, from my subjective perspective -- the only perspective any of us truly has -- my theme in that improvised piece is as it should be. It is, simply put, perfect. It is what it is, it has its own character, I find it beautiful, and I wouldn't know how to make it "better" without changing its character or spoiling its beauty.

You sound delusional when you try to impose your subjective worldview on others. On the other hand, I'm an open minded guy, so if you want to prove me wrong, feel free to attempt to shape my theme into something better while preserving its character. I don't mean that as an impossible challenge. I wouldn't know whether you can do it or not, but to me the theme sounds complete. And .... if you can't do it, then you are essentially just flapping your lips when you are offering us the chance to solicit your advice.
If you check the various threads here you'll see that most contain some sort of advice here and there... It's quite rare to post something complete that doesn't need anything and when it's done it's usually quite clear that it's a finished product.

In your case Steve (who is a great guy, a great composer and a great forum member) is offering his assistance, and is even kind enough to ask in advance if you're looking for such assistance. And your reply to his offering is the above?

Remind me not to offer any feedback to you... It'd be a waste of time, energy and good thinking! frown

EDIT: And in order to make myself even more clear. Steve can only provide some suggestions which you can agree with or disagree. This can lead to a discussion. In the end nobody can tell you more about your own ACCIDENTAL work than yourself...

And to be clear (as Steve says): An improvisation is a lucky photograph with an iphone at best. An accidental one is the photograph that you took with your iphone, by accident, because you were meant to hit the button later, but missed the timing! Get it?


I think you are allowing yourself to be worked up about mere rhetoric. Everything I wrote has a function and a meaning, even if I expressed it poorly. I think you may have misread some of what I wrote.

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#2080409 - 05/10/13 04:00 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
I think you are allowing yourself to be worked up about mere rhetoric. Everything I wrote has a function and a meaning, even if I expressed it poorly. I think you may have misread some of what I wrote.
Could be... I seem to have a habit of doing exactly that!

In any case, as I said, it's custom here to offer some feedback to the composers... After all it's the simplest and most effective way of getting better. If you do not wish for that to happen, by all means, let us know and we can all get on our ways... smile
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2080420 - 05/10/13 04:21 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Nikolas]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
I think you are allowing yourself to be worked up about mere rhetoric. Everything I wrote has a function and a meaning, even if I expressed it poorly. I think you may have misread some of what I wrote.
Could be... I seem to have a habit of doing exactly that!

In any case, as I said, it's custom here to offer some feedback to the composers... After all it's the simplest and most effective way of getting better. If you do not wish for that to happen, by all means, let us know and we can all get on our ways... smile


When I started this thread, I wrote the following three paragraphs among others:

"Yeah, it's an old one. Sigh. If anybody really, really likes it it'd again be awesome if they made a version (sort of improved director's cut maybe) of it on sheet music and published it here. I pretty much only ever "improvise" (i.e. hit keys semi randomly, using my eyes more than my ears), because I can't properly read music.

"I also don't have a good musical recollection, so I'm unable to re-play these sorts of improvisations, let alone notate them unless I subject myself to inhuman working conditions.

"Well, whether you want to play it yourself or do anything with it, I welcome feedback anyway. Hopefully someone will at least enjoy listening to it."

I meant every word, literally, unambiguously, truly, sincerely, real English no hidden motive no hidden message seriously. I don't care whether you like the piece. I'm curious to know anyway, as I have little idea how very advanced listeners would react to it. I just want the feedback to be rational and make sense. The part where Steve said he's expectations were violated made sense. It was something I could understand and think about. The part where he said he could improve my theme didn't make much sense unless he was willing to prove that to me.

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#2080436 - 05/10/13 04:59 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Steve Chandler
Frankly, I listened to the first three minutes of your part 1 and had to turn it off because the repeating note bothered me. I wanted the harmony to go somewhere (anywhere!) and it became obvious you weren't going to take it anywhere.


Hmm, maybe that's true for the most part as far as developing the theme as a whole goes, I can't really remember. But as far as the music goes, it's untrue. Try the second link.

That being said .... why does having an expectation of that kind, and letting it spoil your listening experience make you a good critic? Glenn Gould said music is best approached uncritically. I think he meant without unnecessary expectations. You could also change your expectations (if you can't get rid of them) by re-conceptualising that unmoving tone as something meaningful. An ominous thing perhaps, especially when it begins to gain speed in its repetitions.

Of course, sometimes we can't help ourselves, but why would that make us better? Is the problem with us or the music in these cases? [/quote]
Okay, #1 I had no expectations going in, but after listening for a while my ear wanted a harmonic shift. That's my preference and it's the way I'm wired. If your music doesn't provide that then I get bored. However, your point about the unmoving tone is relevant. Typically an unmoving tone is juxtaposed against other elements, creating and highlighting the dichotomy. I didn't feel that in your piece. Your theme is interesting in that it juxtaposes a minor third against a major sixth. It's nothing earth shaking, but it's a little off diatonic so that has potential for interesting music.

But here's the thing I've recorded some of my own improvisations and almost without fail I can't listen to them because they end up meandering noodling with an occasional good idea. To my ear that's the nature of improvisation for almost everyone. There are very few who can improvise interesting music, I'm not one and from what I've heard (now that I've subjected myself to part 2) neither are you (IMO).

As for using your theme or any part of it for a piece of my own the only part that's interesting is the juxtaposition of the minor third and major sixth, I don't need your permission to use that, but probably won't unless that idea fits with something I feel is important.

Finally, did you read the thread by Charles Peck about his new virtuosic work for solo piano? Mr. Peck posted a piece and a number of us had suggestions and comments. I give kudos to Mr. Peck because he took those ideas and reworked his piece and I believe the result was significant improvement. He was initially hesitant but ended up reconsidering. I suggest you read the thread and listen to his music. Of course he also had the skills and ability to post a score which made analyzing what he did easier and aided the process.

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#2080478 - 05/10/13 07:01 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Steve Chandler]
Charles Peck Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Minneapolis, MN, USA
This is clearly an already loaded thread, but I thought I would throw my thoughts in here.

Medium Heights, I think this "I challenge you to do it better than me" thing is a bit trivial. You obviously feel the music one way and others will have there on reaction. Steve, as an advanced listener as you called it, is offering an opinion on how to build on your work. If you are writing music that you intend to be shared, then outside opinions matter. You are perfectly within your right to disagree with them, but I would be wary of getting too defensive about it.

Also you shouldn't need to explain to anyone how to think about a repeating tone. If it is there to build tension appropriately in the music, then it will be obvious. Now some people may feel this differently, but I am inclined to agree with Steve here.

By the way, with the following quote, I believe that Steve is referring to Mark Gordon's thread, which I commented on several times. And he has made many good changes.

"Finally, did you read the thread by Charles Peck about his new virtuosic work for solo piano? Mr. Peck posted a piece and a number of us had suggestions and comments. I give kudos to Mr. Peck because he took those ideas and reworked his piece and I believe the result was significant improvement. He was initially hesitant but ended up reconsidering. I suggest you read the thread and listen to his music. Of course he also had the skills and ability to post a score which made analyzing what he did easier and aided the process. "

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#2080490 - 05/10/13 07:34 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Charles Peck]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Charles Peck
This is clearly an already loaded thread, but I thought I would throw my thoughts in here.

Medium Heights, I think this "I challenge you to do it better than me" thing is a bit trivial. You obviously feel the music one way and others will have there on reaction.


There are two points I'd like to make in response to that.

1) I'd like to be able to play this piece, or something like it except (even) better. I can't, because I'm not skilled enough to notate it or learn it by ear. I thought that, maybe, someone super-skilled might be interested in taking some material from it, composing a piece based on that stuff, and publishing sheet music I could use for learning it. I guess that's utopian fantasy though, after reading all of your comments.

2) If you say I need your help with "thematic ideas", then you need to show you can improve on my thematic ideas. I've always agreed I'm not a brilliant developer of themes. But that's entirely different. Through inspiration, it's very possible to come up with pretty much perfect themes or "thematic ideas", even if you're otherwise a poor musician. As Borges said about writing, anybody can come up with a few good sentences. Anybody can come up with a few good themes, but those aren't necessarily the same themes other people come up with, and in this case I would have, at the very least, thought that that theme would have interested someone enough for them to do something with it and share the results, even if only an improvisation of their own they made sheet music from. But no. There seems to be neither true interest nor true altruism here (I can't imagine composing a short and effective piece based on that theme would be much work for many of you, so I mentioned that lack of altruism part, because it's something I would do if I were in your shoes).

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#2080506 - 05/10/13 08:30 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Charles Peck Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Well assuming that another composer would be interested in spending time working your material is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps someone would be open to this, but most of us are quite busy working with our own material. And we use our own material because that is unique to us. Personally, I am not particularly interested in reworking anyone's material, good or bad.

I can, however, take a few moments to make some informed comments on a composition. At which point, that composer can accept or ignore my thoughts. I don't need to prove to you what I am saying. It is just guidance, I don't want to do it for you. I believe our goal here is to help you become a better composer for yourself, not to use you as a source of material.

I have never had a composition lesson where a teacher made a comment and I said well prove it, play me something better.

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#2080518 - 05/10/13 08:59 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Charles you are correct I was referring to Mark Gordon. My apologies for not getting that right, it's been a long week and I found aspects of this thread unexpectedly very annoying.

However, with regard to this:
Originally Posted By: Charles Peck
Well assuming that another composer would be interested in spending time working your material is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps someone would be open to this, but most of us are quite busy working with our own material. And we use our own material because that is unique to us. Personally, I am not particularly interested in reworking anyone's material, good or bad.

I can, however, take a few moments to make some informed comments on a composition. At which point, that composer can accept or ignore my thoughts. I don't need to prove to you what I am saying. It is just guidance, I don't want to do it for you. I believe our goal here is to help you become a better composer for yourself, not to use you as a source of material.

I have never had a composition lesson where a teacher made a comment and I said well prove it, play me something better.

+1!

Medium Heights, here's my best advice, I don't care if you like it or not. If you don't have the skills to notate your music, it's not that hard to acquire them. Study music theory and study ear training and you'll probably find writing your music down isn't that difficult. I believe there are even free online courses in this stuff.


Edited by Steve Chandler (05/10/13 09:06 PM)

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#2080897 - 05/11/13 03:21 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Charles Peck]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Charles Peck

I have never had a composition lesson where a teacher made a comment and I said well prove it, play me something better.


Why?

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#2080914 - 05/11/13 03:58 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
Originally Posted By: Charles Peck

I have never had a composition lesson where a teacher made a comment and I said well prove it, play me something better.


Why?
You really don't get it? Or you're just trying to troll a tiny bit?

The reason is simple: Especially in composition (but in any music lesson in effect) proving that you can do better has nothing to do with the quality of your comments, teachings and feedback! Imagine this: A piano teacher is teaching his student to play the 3rd Rach concerto. A work that the teacher is well aware of, has played it, but many many years ago, and, let's be honest is out of practice. Do you think that the teacher cannot teach the work? Or that it's fair/sane from the student to challenge the teacher in the way that you're challenging Steve?

Same goes for composition. The theme is yours, yours are the ideas, the feelings, the aesthetic, etc. If you ask me I think that a lot of the works provided here are wonderful! Better than my works a lot of times and I'm feeling jealous! But does this mean that I can't comment on a work, based on my experience, knowledge, credentials and what the heck else? Of course not! I can comment and be useful to the person(s) reading it, as well as the composer!

Your challenge is based on ego and not much else, I'm afraid.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2080924 - 05/11/13 04:36 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Nikolas]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
Originally Posted By: Charles Peck

I have never had a composition lesson where a teacher made a comment and I said well prove it, play me something better.


Why?
You really don't get it? Or you're just trying to troll a tiny bit?

The reason is simple: Especially in composition (but in any music lesson in effect) proving that you can do better has nothing to do with the quality of your comments, teachings and feedback! Imagine this: A piano teacher is teaching his student to play the 3rd Rach concerto. A work that the teacher is well aware of, has played it, but many many years ago, and, let's be honest is out of practice. Do you think that the teacher cannot teach the work? Or that it's fair/sane from the student to challenge the teacher in the way that you're challenging Steve?

Same goes for composition. The theme is yours, yours are the ideas, the feelings, the aesthetic, etc. If you ask me I think that a lot of the works provided here are wonderful! Better than my works a lot of times and I'm feeling jealous! But does this mean that I can't comment on a work, based on my experience, knowledge, credentials and what the heck else? Of course not! I can comment and be useful to the person(s) reading it, as well as the composer!

Your challenge is based on ego and not much else, I'm afraid.


Are you sure I'm the only one who doesn't get something here? Or could it be you are all casuals in terms of trying to comprehend what I write and empathise with my point of view? Just a thought.

I'm not going to explain myself over and over again. I've already done it adequately for anyone who has a sincere wish to communicate rather than preach.

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#2080931 - 05/11/13 04:43 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
Do you think that a single word, with a question mark constitutes a valid and adequate effort to communicate?

I'd say that you asked a question and I replied to the best of my ability. Why this isn't enough? Because my reply doesn't suite you?
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2080938 - 05/11/13 04:54 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Nikolas]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Do you think that a single word, with a question mark constitutes a valid and adequate effort to communicate?

I'd say that you asked a question and I replied to the best of my ability. Why this isn't enough? Because my reply doesn't suite you?


OK. I'll repeat myself unnecessarily, and we'll see how useful that is.

If someone says he can help me with composition, then logically he has to be a better composer. It's not the same as helping someone with piano playing, because for that you need ears, not fingers. But helping with composition, for that you need to be better at least at some aspect of composition than the person you are trying to help.

Now in this case, Steve has said there's nothing interesting about my theme except one aspect of it. And he has apparently offered help with improving my thematic invention skills. This all logically implies that he is able to write a theme that is better than mine yet the same in terms of character. It also implies that my subjective experience of the theme as "perfect" isn't valid. There are two aspects to this:

1) I don't mind subjective reactions. I welcome them. But a line is crossed when my own subjective experiences are invalidated in the way that Steve did. This is even mentioned in the pianoworld forum rules, so I don't think I'm in the wrong here.

2) If he wants to help me write a better theme, then logically he must be able to improve my theme. There's no way around that. It's basic logic, specious analogies not withstanding.

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#2080949 - 05/11/13 05:14 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Medium Heights
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Do you think that a single word, with a question mark constitutes a valid and adequate effort to communicate?

I'd say that you asked a question and I replied to the best of my ability. Why this isn't enough? Because my reply doesn't suite you?


OK. I'll repeat myself unnecessarily, and we'll see how useful that is.
I thank you for that, despite the fact that you already feel it's unnecessary! wink Think about it for a second. You start off your post with something rather negative...

Quote:
If someone says he can help me with composition, then logically he has to be a better composer. It's not the same as helping someone with piano playing, because for that you need ears, not fingers. But helping with composition, for that you need to be better at least at some aspect of composition than the person you are trying to help.
I don't agree really... Composition has to do with tons of things. One can be great with compositional techniques or orchestration, but the overall picture may be different.

Moreover, showing that a composer can do something "better", under your requisites proves nothing. Did you try to check my compositions, or Steves' compositions? They can be found here and elsewhere...

Quote:
Now in this case, Steve has said there's nothing interesting about my theme except one aspect of it. And he has apparently offered help with improving my thematic invention skills. This all logically implies that he is able to write a theme that is better than mine yet the same in terms of character. It also implies that my subjective experience of the theme as "perfect" isn't valid.
No that's simply insane: You already feel that your theme is "perfect" so it's impossible to top that. Yet, you can't come up with a better left hand accompaniment in the other thread! you can't write/read music. You can't replay what you did. And what you're offering here just came up by accident(like Magic)...

If I'm misreading something, please tell me, but this is what I'm getting from you. And if this is the case, then it does seem bizarre that you're challenging Steve (or other composers here for that matter) to come up with something better, according to you. It's insulting in all honesty!

Quote:
There are two aspects to this:

1) I don't mind subjective reactions. I welcome them. But a line is crossed when my own subjective experiences are invalidated in the way that Steve did. This is even mentioned in the pianoworld forum rules, so I don't think I'm in the wrong here.
If you actually think that Steve broke the PianoWorld rules, you're most welcome to contact the mods.

But he didn't! He offered his serious knowledge, experience and valuable time to post (as I am actually, since I've given quite a bit of time to my posts here), without a thank you and a single insulting challenge.

And that to what? To be accused that he's breaking the rules?!?!

By all means, let me not be the person to break the rules "as Steve did". Your accidental improvisation, which is a wonderful piece is indeed a wonderful piece. End of story...

So are you looking for any kind of help (cause in the other thread you can't put your left hand to play what you feel is missing, as I understand it), or not? Because if anyone tells you that your wonderful piece isn't wonderful, then automatically they are breaking the PW rules?!?!?! grin

Quote:
2) If he wants to help me write a better theme, then logically he must be able to improve my theme. There's no way around that. It's basic logic, specious analogies not withstanding.
Now I'm speaking on behalf of Steve here and though it's not right, I'll do so, and if I'm wrong, Steve can correct me. He knows I mean well.

He doesn't want that. He doesn't have to prove anything to you, or anyone. He's done so with his own works. It's like asking Beethoven to work on a twelve tone work. And if he can't do it... well... he's a worst composer than Berg! grin Do you see the analogy in this?

____________________

So having answered to all your post, here's my honest and good will advice (honestly... I don't mean harm here, although I am rather annoyed at your posts towards Steve).

Stand back a little. Think that when you get public, you're bound to find people who don't like what they see/hear/read. It may feel hurtful, but it's not. Someone didn't listen past the 3rd minute gap. Me neither actually... (but your stance made me not post anything about your work, cause I'd have to prove myself to you and it's not worth it).

See what you can get from the posts here. If there's nothing, then there's nothing. If there's personal comments counter them, contact the mods, act accordingly. If you wish to challenge all those who speak to you (I mean already I'be been accused of preaching to you, when I AM geniouinely trying to help) you won't have any more people to talk to, cause people will simply avoid talking to you.

If you want to post your works and wait to listen how wonderful fantastic, etc they are, then by all means make these wonderful fantastic works and wait up. If you are looking to get better, then check out (I repeat that) what can be useful and take it up. Leave the rest here...

___________________

Finally, check out something about my post:

I don't know you, so I don't talk personal issues here. I don't talk about your personality. I'm basing my post to what YOU have said (and my experience as a musician) about your own works. If I'm wrong (already said that) correct me.

If you simply disagree, say so and I will try to explain once again, once I find some time.

Bottom line, I don't think I'm insulting you in any way. Even if I don't like your wonderful piece. And I'm NOT using the term wonderful as a sarcastic remark, but only because you used it.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2080957 - 05/11/13 05:29 PM Re: Accidentally improvised a wonderful piece [Re: Medium Heights]
Medium Heights Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Banned
I do think the theme is its own creature, so to speak. Maybe it can be improved, I just can't imagine it. Great composers often do things I couldn't have imagined, so like I said, I'm keeping an opend mind.

I'm not interested in word wrestling with you, beyond that, since it's all irrelevant in regards to what I wanted from my thread when I started it, and I've already explained everything there is to explain about my motives and relevant thoughts.

I certainly won't report anyone to the mods just because of annoying and irrational behaviour as long as it's even vaguely on topic, even if it violates some ideals set forth in the forum rules or where ever (the "ten commandments" I think it was).

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