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#2062988 - 04/11/13 03:47 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
The original point of this thread was based on two questions:

What are the most effective ways to obtain virtuoso technique???
What is the most efficient way to improve via practice time?

Neither question addresses "talent" or "musical ability", only technique. If the OP wants to develop vituroso technique, it would be best to define, as precisely as is possible, what is generally meant by "virtuoso". Not easy I imagine. Is it "fast" playing? Is it playing that speaks to the "soul" of the listener? Is it playing that provides the player with large financial rewards?


Edited by Mwm (04/11/13 03:48 PM)

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#2062990 - 04/11/13 03:51 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Derulux]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I will only say I cannot agree with virtually a single thing you wrote. Just one point: Did you realize that what Kissin did at his audition most people can't do after a lifetime of practice and he clearly hadn't spent endless hours learning how to do this because he was so young at the time? Hence the title of the video "The Gift of Music". To deny that someone like Kissin has a gift or talent really makes no sense.

That's fine. I'm not arguing for the sake of persuasion, but merely expressing my views.

I didn't hear anything special that Kissin did in his audition. If, for some reason, he had never improvised a day in his life, and that was his first attempt -- and the result was on par with the expectation of excellence that Kissin's name implies -- then I should say there is an interesting example. But we have none of that evidence available, and I'm sure he practiced improvisation ahead of the audition.
He was a young child of 6 at the time of the audition. He didn't have much time to practice anything. That's the whole point. Everything he did he accomplished at an astronomical rate compared to others of the same age.

Did he practice singing Bach fugue themes he heard a lot before the first time he did it? Do you think many 11 month olds can do this?


Edited by pianoloverus (04/11/13 03:57 PM)

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#2062991 - 04/11/13 03:52 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
re: being kissin

I don't believe anyone can, through hard work, be as good as Kissin.

I don't believe anyone can, through hard work, be as good as Tiger Woods.

I do believe that anyone can, through hard work, learn to play golf well enough to enjoy it.

I do believe that anyone can, through hard work, learn to play the piano well enough to enjoy it.

Also, I don't believe talent is a "have it or don't" proposition. Pretty much everyone, except in rare cases, has some kind of musical talent. It's part of being human, just like language. And that talent is like linguistic talent - not everyone can become a great orator, but everyone can become good enough to be conversant and be understood.
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#2062997 - 04/11/13 04:00 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Mwm]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
Originally Posted By: Mwm
The original point of this thread was based on two questions:

What are the most effective ways to obtain virtuoso technique???
What is the most efficient way to improve via practice time?

Neither question addresses "talent" or "musical ability", only technique. If the OP wants to develop vituroso technique, it would be best to define, as precisely as is possible, what is generally meant by "virtuoso". Not easy I imagine. Is it "fast" playing? Is it playing that speaks to the "soul" of the listener? Is it playing that provides the player with large financial rewards?


Exactly.
Most here are aware of this, but "talent" discussion seems more interesting for most of us (including me) than discussing the rather naïve questions of the OP.
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#2063031 - 04/11/13 05:15 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Hakki]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Hakki,

My interest here is the definition of "virtuoso", which was included in the original question. If we don't have a common frame of reference for that word, then the discussion of talent or innate musical ability or innate musicality cannot be included in a discussion of "virtuoso" technique". I have made my views clear on musicality. I have spent many decades playing with and listening to people perform who haven't an ounce of musicality, even though they play technically well. Either you have it, or you don't. You cannot fool the listener.

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#2063097 - 04/11/13 07:52 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: pianoloverus]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I will only say I cannot agree with virtually a single thing you wrote. Just one point: Did you realize that what Kissin did at his audition most people can't do after a lifetime of practice and he clearly hadn't spent endless hours learning how to do this because he was so young at the time? Hence the title of the video "The Gift of Music". To deny that someone like Kissin has a gift or talent really makes no sense.

That's fine. I'm not arguing for the sake of persuasion, but merely expressing my views.

I didn't hear anything special that Kissin did in his audition. If, for some reason, he had never improvised a day in his life, and that was his first attempt -- and the result was on par with the expectation of excellence that Kissin's name implies -- then I should say there is an interesting example. But we have none of that evidence available, and I'm sure he practiced improvisation ahead of the audition.
He was a young child of 6 at the time of the audition. He didn't have much time to practice anything. That's the whole point. Everything he did he accomplished at an astronomical rate compared to others of the same age.

Did he practice singing Bach fugue themes he heard a lot before the first time he did it? Do you think many 11 month olds can do this?

I can post youtube links right now to several six year olds playing the same stuff. I think there may be a little bias in the idea of what the 6-year-old Kissin could produce based on what we know the 41-year-old Kissin can now produce. I taught myself Mozart pieces at 8, having never touched a piano before in my life. "Oh, my God! A prodigy!!!! So much talent!!!!!" Not even close. I already played the trumpet, knew how to read music, and used basic math for the rest. (If you can count to "one", you can find the keys on a piano.)

I have an 18 month-old niece who, at 11 months old, could use a cell phone and a tablet, call the people she wanted to call, find and play the youtube songs she wanted to watch, and, now that she's running around, can dance to them, too. She can even play a few notes on the piano, though alternating fingers in a scale is still a little out of her grasp (same finger for each note). Talent? Not at all. She's just constantly exposed to it, so she learns it.

Originally Posted By: Kreisler
I don't believe anyone can, through hard work, be as good as Kissin.

I don't believe anyone can, through hard work, be as good as Tiger Woods.

Volodos? Richter? Horowitz?
Nicklaus? Jones? Vardon?
wink

I think the biggest problem for most people is that they don't try. And that isn't necessarily a problem. Some people find enjoyment out of doing something well. Others have to be the best. Tiger Woods would not be happy going down in history as the 2nd greatest golfer who ever lived. He wants the title. So he works harder and longer than anyone else to go out and try to get it. But if you don't enjoy golf enough to go out and hit 1500 balls with one club, putt for three hours, chip for two hours, every day for 20 years, then you will not be Tiger Woods.

There was a very famous wrestler named Dan Gable, who used to wake up in the middle of the night and work out for two hours. Why? It was daytime in Russia, and his competitor was training. That's not talent. That's unbelievable dedication and hard work. His collegiate record of only one loss was finally beaten in 2004 by Cael Sanderson, who was the first person ever to go undefeated in college wrestling history.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2063101 - 04/11/13 08:06 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Mwm]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7423
Originally Posted By: Mwm
The original point of this thread was based on two questions:

What are the most effective ways to obtain virtuoso technique???
What is the most efficient way to improve via practice time?

Neither question addresses "talent" or "musical ability", only technique. If the OP wants to develop vituroso technique, it would be best to define, as precisely as is possible, what is generally meant by "virtuoso". Not easy I imagine. Is it "fast" playing? Is it playing that speaks to the "soul" of the listener? Is it playing that provides the player with large financial rewards?


Just to clarify, he did revise his question to be this, instead: "What is the best way to maximize one's piano abilities?!?" The virtuoso technique bit was entirely dropped, so if you are interested in addressing the poster's question, that's the one to address, not the original post.

Of course, if you are interested in discussing "virtuosity" as a concept, fine. I just wanted to point out that it's no longer part of what the OP is asking.

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#2063102 - 04/11/13 08:12 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Derulux]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
I don't believe anyone can, through hard work, be as good as Kissin.

I don't believe anyone can, through hard work, be as good as Tiger Woods.

Volodos? Richter? Horowitz?
Nicklaus? Jones? Vardon?
I won't comment much on your latest reply to my post except to again say I see almost nothing that I agree with or find convincing. For example, playing "some Mozart pieces" at 8 hardly compares to playing the Chopin Ballade at 6 like Kissin. Talent is a continuum. It's not either yes or no. What you did shows talent but it was light years away from Kissin.

In regard, to your comment in Kreisler's post you misunderstood his use of "anyone". He clearly didn't mean to say that no one could through hard work play like Kissin. He didn't say that and interpreting his statement that way IMO shows your extreme bias and misunderstandings. Your idea, that not a single poster seems to agree with, is that anyone can play piano like Kissin with the right amount of effort.


Edited by pianoloverus (04/11/13 08:25 PM)

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#2063106 - 04/11/13 08:25 PM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: pianoloverus]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
I don't believe anyone can, through hard work, be as good as Kissin.

I don't believe anyone can, through hard work, be as good as Tiger Woods.

Volodos? Richter? Horowitz?
Nicklaus? Jones? Vardon?
I won't comment much on your latest reply to my post except to again say I see almost nothing that I agree with or find convincing. For example, playing "some Mozart" at 8 hardly compares to playing the Chopin Ballade at 6 like Kissin. Talent is a continuum. It's not either yes or no. What you did shows talent but it was light years away from Kissin.

In regard, to your comment in Kreisler's post you misunderstood his meaning. He clearly didn't mean to say that no one could through hard work play like Kissin. He didn't say that and interpreting his statement that way IMO shows your extreme bias and misunderstandings on this issue. Your idea, that not a single poster seems to agree with, is that anyone can play piano like Kissin with the right amount of effort.

I am absolutely certain that you were there in the room with Kissin when he was six. Or maybe have caught a video of him playing somewhere. (Did they have camcorders in 1977? I honestly don't know..) But if you were there, in my living room, when I was six.. you have officially just creeped me out for life. shocked

And several posters have chimed in agreeing with things I've said. But I don't base what I believe on the popular opinions of others. I base it on the evidence presented to me. Speaking of convincing.. to my first question, asking for evidence of "talent", you have yet to respond with any. Inference, certainly, but evidence? Not a shred. wink

If Kreisler feels I misinterpreted what he wrote, I'm sure he'll clarify. I actually think that, with the exception of the existence of "talent", I agree with most of what Kreisler wrote.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2063109 - 04/11/13 08:30 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: wr]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Mwm
The original point of this thread was based on two questions:

What are the most effective ways to obtain virtuoso technique???
What is the most efficient way to improve via practice time?

Neither question addresses "talent" or "musical ability", only technique. If the OP wants to develop vituroso technique, it would be best to define, as precisely as is possible, what is generally meant by "virtuoso". Not easy I imagine. Is it "fast" playing? Is it playing that speaks to the "soul" of the listener? Is it playing that provides the player with large financial rewards?


Just to clarify, he did revise his question to be this, instead: "What is the best way to maximize one's piano abilities?!?" The virtuoso technique bit was entirely dropped, so if you are interested in addressing the poster's question, that's the one to address, not the original post.

Of course, if you are interested in discussing "virtuosity" as a concept, fine. I just wanted to point out that it's no longer part of what the OP is asking.



My thought is that the underlying theme hasn't changed, regardless of the OP's edit. Usually the first thing out of one's mouth (or one's fingers in this case) is closer to the desired thought than any subsequent backtracking. (Just a little armchair psychology.) We have to be careful when using the word ability. Maximizing one piano abilities assumes you have some to begin with.

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#2063111 - 04/11/13 08:35 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Mwm]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mwm
We have to be careful when using the word ability. Maximizing one piano abilities assumes you have some to begin with.
Ability like talent is a continuum. Everyone has some degree even if they're at the extreme low end of the bell curve.

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#2063119 - 04/11/13 08:51 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: pianoloverus]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Mwm
We have to be careful when using the word ability. Maximizing one piano abilities assumes you have some to begin with.
Ability like talent is a continuum. Everyone has some degree even if they're at the extreme low end of the bell curve.


What I'm really trying to say, politely, is that people who are blind are not able to be airline pilots; they lack the ability to fly using current technology. Period. Rocks lack the ability to swim and therefore are not able to compete in swimming competitions. Period. Are these examples, therefore, of just the extreme end of the bell curve? You may think I'm being flippant but, while it may be possible to maximize one's ability, if it is at the extreme low end of the bell curve, one is not going to become a "virtuoso".

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#2063127 - 04/11/13 09:03 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Mwm]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mwm
What I'm really trying to say, politely, is that people who are blind are not able to be airline pilots; they lack the ability to fly using current technology. Period. Rocks lack the ability to swim and therefore are not able to compete in swimming competitions. Period. Are these examples, therefore, of just the extreme end of the bell curve? You may think I'm being flippant but, while it may be possible to maximize one's ability, if it is at the extreme low end of the bell curve, one is not going to become a "virtuoso".
The examples you gave are not really on the curve at all. They have physical disabilities that prevent them from doing the tasks at all.

The quote I objected didn't talk about the unreasonableness of someone at the low end of the scale becoming a great pianist. That's perfectly reasonable to me. You said one should not talk of maximizing ability because someone might not have any. I don't think many would consider people who are not capable of pressing down a note in that discussion.


Edited by pianoloverus (04/11/13 09:05 PM)

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#2063130 - 04/11/13 09:06 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Mwm]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7423
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Maximizing one piano abilities assumes you have some to begin with.


If he's been taking lessons for five months, he must have some rudimentary abilities, at the very least. Either that, or else he and the teacher are involved in some kind of folie à deux.

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#2063131 - 04/11/13 09:10 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: pianoloverus]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Mwm
What I'm really trying to say, politely, is that people who are blind are not able to be airline pilots; they lack the ability to fly using current technology. Period. Rocks lack the ability to swim and therefore are not able to compete in swimming competitions. Period. Are these examples, therefore, of just the extreme end of the bell curve? You may think I'm being flippant but, while it may be possible to maximize one's ability, if it is at the extreme low end of the bell curve, one is not going to become a "virtuoso".
The examples you gave are not really on the curve at all. They have physical disabilities that prevent them from doing the tasks at all.

The quote I objected didn't talk about the unreasonableness of someone at the low end of the scale becoming a great pianist. That's perfectly reasonable to me. You said one should not talk of maximizing ability because someone might not have any. I don't think many would consider people who are not capable of pressing down a note in that discussion.


Precisely. There are people who have no musical ability. They are not on the curve at all.

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#2063136 - 04/11/13 09:17 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Mwm]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Mwm
What I'm really trying to say, politely, is that people who are blind are not able to be airline pilots; they lack the ability to fly using current technology. Period. Rocks lack the ability to swim and therefore are not able to compete in swimming competitions. Period. Are these examples, therefore, of just the extreme end of the bell curve? You may think I'm being flippant but, while it may be possible to maximize one's ability, if it is at the extreme low end of the bell curve, one is not going to become a "virtuoso".
The examples you gave are not really on the curve at all. They have physical disabilities that prevent them from doing the tasks at all.

The quote I objected didn't talk about the unreasonableness of someone at the low end of the scale becoming a great pianist. That's perfectly reasonable to me. You said one should not talk of maximizing ability because someone might not have any. I don't think many would consider people who are not capable of pressing down a note in that discussion.


Precisely. There are people who have no musical ability. They are not on the curve at all.

I don't think I've ever met someone who had "zero" musical ability. Some people are less fortunate, and aren't exposed to it as much as others, but just about everyone can whistle, hum, or clap.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2063139 - 04/11/13 09:21 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Mwm]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Mwm
What I'm really trying to say, politely, is that people who are blind are not able to be airline pilots; they lack the ability to fly using current technology. Period. Rocks lack the ability to swim and therefore are not able to compete in swimming competitions. Period. Are these examples, therefore, of just the extreme end of the bell curve? You may think I'm being flippant but, while it may be possible to maximize one's ability, if it is at the extreme low end of the bell curve, one is not going to become a "virtuoso".
The examples you gave are not really on the curve at all. They have physical disabilities that prevent them from doing the tasks at all.

The quote I objected didn't talk about the unreasonableness of someone at the low end of the scale becoming a great pianist. That's perfectly reasonable to me. You said one should not talk of maximizing ability because someone might not have any. I don't think many would consider people who are not capable of pressing down a note in that discussion.


Precisely. There are people who have no musical ability. They are not on the curve at all.
I was not agreeing with you. Anyone who can press a note down has some ability to play the piano. In a discussion of "ability", including those who are physically incapable of pressing a note down in the discussion is not something many would consider as reasonable.


Edited by pianoloverus (04/11/13 09:25 PM)

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#2063141 - 04/11/13 09:22 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Derulux]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Mwm
What I'm really trying to say, politely, is that people who are blind are not able to be airline pilots; they lack the ability to fly using current technology. Period. Rocks lack the ability to swim and therefore are not able to compete in swimming competitions. Period. Are these examples, therefore, of just the extreme end of the bell curve? You may think I'm being flippant but, while it may be possible to maximize one's ability, if it is at the extreme low end of the bell curve, one is not going to become a "virtuoso".
The examples you gave are not really on the curve at all. They have physical disabilities that prevent them from doing the tasks at all.

The quote I objected didn't talk about the unreasonableness of someone at the low end of the scale becoming a great pianist. That's perfectly reasonable to me. You said one should not talk of maximizing ability because someone might not have any. I don't think many would consider people who are not capable of pressing down a note in that discussion.


Precisely. There are people who have no musical ability. They are not on the curve at all.

I don't think I've ever met someone who had "zero" musical ability. Some people are less fortunate, and aren't exposed to it as much as others, but just about everyone can whistle, hum, or clap.


I must apologize, as I have not made myself clear. I am not talking about being able to whistle or clap. I am talking about being able to make music. There IS a difference. Many people can play the piano. Not that many make music when doing it. The difference is clearly heard by the listener.

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#2063181 - 04/11/13 11:12 PM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Mwm]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Mwm
What I'm really trying to say, politely, is that people who are blind are not able to be airline pilots; they lack the ability to fly using current technology. Period. Rocks lack the ability to swim and therefore are not able to compete in swimming competitions. Period. Are these examples, therefore, of just the extreme end of the bell curve? You may think I'm being flippant but, while it may be possible to maximize one's ability, if it is at the extreme low end of the bell curve, one is not going to become a "virtuoso".
The examples you gave are not really on the curve at all. They have physical disabilities that prevent them from doing the tasks at all.

The quote I objected didn't talk about the unreasonableness of someone at the low end of the scale becoming a great pianist. That's perfectly reasonable to me. You said one should not talk of maximizing ability because someone might not have any. I don't think many would consider people who are not capable of pressing down a note in that discussion.


Precisely. There are people who have no musical ability. They are not on the curve at all.

I don't think I've ever met someone who had "zero" musical ability. Some people are less fortunate, and aren't exposed to it as much as others, but just about everyone can whistle, hum, or clap.


I must apologize, as I have not made myself clear. I am not talking about being able to whistle or clap. I am talking about being able to make music. There IS a difference. Many people can play the piano. Not that many make music when doing it. The difference is clearly heard by the listener.

I'm not sure that's indicative of musical ability. Technique, almost assuredly, but not necessarily musical ability.

Of course, there is the off-chance that it is the listener who has the issue, and not the performer (or any other listener who heard the same thing).

If the only people capable of "making music" sit in the first chair at the New York Philharmonic, then the world is in a sad state, indeed. So, I think my definition is usually pretty broad. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2063239 - 04/12/13 01:22 AM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Hakki]
King Cole Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/12
Posts: 33
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Hakki

Most here are aware of this, but "talent" discussion seems more interesting for most of us (including me) than discussing the rather naïve questions of the OP.


Naive you say? Well I apologize. We can't all be young pianists winning amateur chopin competitions like you my good man.

Hakki what is your definition virtuoso anyway? I know it may be hard to come down to us mortals but please enlighten us with your utter brilliance.

I'll just assume I have no musical ability and/or talent and practice relentlessly and hopefully my teacher guides me well. Maybe then I could scratch the surface of decent musicality when it comes to playing "Mary had a little lamb". See you all in 10 years.
_________________________
"What is genius? To aspire to a lofty aim and to will the means to that aim" -Nietzsche

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#2063249 - 04/12/13 02:10 AM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: King Cole]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4149
Oh Horowitzian... whistle

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#2063251 - 04/12/13 02:14 AM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: JoelW]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Oh Horowitzian... whistle


You rang?









WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!
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#2063261 - 04/12/13 02:32 AM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Horowitzian]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Before we put this thread out to pasture..... grin

I remember my first concept of "virtuoso." I was somewhat raised on the John Schaum piano books -- y'know, Book "A," Book "B," etc. It went up to "H."

G was titled "Pre-Virtuoso."
H was "Virtuoso."

So, for years I went around thinking, all I had to do was get up to Book H and I'd be a virtuoso, whatever that meant. To me, it meant basically getting up to Book H, but I figured it was something real good besides that. Just do book H, and you're a virtuoso.

Imagine my disappointment. ha

BTW, maybe the problem was that I never did Book "A." I had had a teacher before that who used John Thompson. So, I had done "Teaching Little Fingers to Play" and whatever was the next John Thompson book after that. Then with this next teacher, I got "jumped" right to Book "B." Maybe "A" had some missing secrets. grin

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#2063262 - 04/12/13 02:36 AM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Horowitzian]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4149
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Oh Horowitzian... whistle


You rang?









WHAT AN AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!



grin grin grin

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#2063264 - 04/12/13 02:38 AM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: King Cole]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
You should never post again, Joel. That was your 1337th post. grin

l33t.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#2063265 - 04/12/13 02:41 AM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Mark_C]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Before we put this thread out to pasture..... grin

I remember my first concept of "virtuoso." I was somewhat raised on the John Schaum piano books -- y'know, Book "A," Book "B," etc. It went up to "H."

G was titled "Pre-Virtuoso."
H was "Virtuoso."

So, for years I went around thinking, all I had to do was get up to Book H and I'd be a virtuoso, whatever that meant. To me, it meant basically getting up to Book H, but I figured it was something real good besides that. Just do book H, and you're a virtuoso.

Imagine my disappointment. ha

BTW, maybe the problem was that I never did Book "A." I had teacher before that who used John Thompson. So, I had done "Teaching Little Fingers to Play" and whatever was the next John Thompson book after that. Then with this next teacher, I got "jumped" right to Book "B." Maybe "A" had some missing secrets. grin

You mean, by book 8 you weren't? Maybe it was a "talent" issue.. grin (couldn't help it)

On a more serious note, and out of curiosity, how long after that did it take? And what was in volume "H"? (I've never seen the inside of those books.)

Also, I think you inadvertently bring up a good point about "labels". You see this all over the place in the martial arts nowadays. People "promote" themselves to foreign-language equivalents of the word "teacher". They call themselves "master" because it attracts more students--ah, marketing! But all those labels are irrelevant and pointless.

I think, in this respect, the prophet Jack Sparrow said it best, "All that matters is what a man can do, and what a man can't do."

Perhaps in that respect, and tying it full circle to the original question, it would be best to disregard the label "virtuoso" and simply dissect technique that breeds success?


EDIT: I suppose the second question leaned more in that direction..
Quote:
What is the most efficient way to improve via practice time?

Unfortunately, the only answer I can give over a forum is that it depends on what you're doing now, and what you'd like to be doing. But the best and most effective snippet of advice I could give would be to say this:

Don't, under any circumstances, continue to practice something incorrectly. Always practice the correct movement. Otherwise, you will develop bad habits very quickly, and they will haunt you from note to note and piece to piece.

If you are playing with significant bad habits, it would be best to go back to scratch, rebuild your technique, and then continue. There is a lot of time invested in this approach. Look at Tiger Woods. He is now on his 4th swing, and it took him five years to get back to #1 in the world coming into the Masters. Could take 2-3 years to rebuild your piano technique (or longer). But if you want it that badly, then do it.


Edited by Derulux (04/12/13 02:47 AM)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2063275 - 04/12/13 03:16 AM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Horowitzian]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4149
Originally Posted By: Horowitzian
You should never post again, Joel. That was your 1337th post. grin

l33t.


ftw

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#2063334 - 04/12/13 08:13 AM Re: Maximizing ability [Re: Mwm]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mwm
I must apologize, as I have not made myself clear. I am not talking about being able to whistle or clap. I am talking about being able to make music. There IS a difference. Many people can play the piano. Not that many make music when doing it. The difference is clearly heard by the listener.
I think "making music" like "ability" and like "talent" is a continuum and not a yes or no situation. That would mean that close to 100% of pianists can make music to some degree albeit sometimes at a low level. And some would require a lot of instruction to play with even a minimum of musicality.

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#2063338 - 04/12/13 08:27 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: Derulux]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Derulux
I am absolutely certain that you were there in the room with Kissin when he was six. Or maybe have caught a video of him playing somewhere. (Did they have camcorders in 1977? I honestly don't know..) But if you were there, in my living room, when I was six.. you have officially just creeped me out for life
You mentioned your accomplishments at 8 s if to show Kissin's skill at 6 was not so amazing. One has to compare apples to apples. You hadn't played the piano at all at age 6 and he did at 6 what I previously described including playing a Chopin Ballade. At 8 you taught yourself to "play some Mozart pieces". I don't know what Kissin did at 8 but judging by where he was at 6 and the fact that he had been at Gnessin for 2 years he was undoubtedly light years beyond what you did at 8. Although both Kissin and you were talented, there is no comparison to where you were on the talent scale.

Originally Posted By: Derulux
Speaking of convincing.. to my first question, asking for evidence of "talent", you have yet to respond with any. Inference, certainly, but evidence? Not a shred. wink
I gave numerous examples of what the huge majority of people and virtually everyone on this thread would call talent. Since you don't even consider talent something that exists or can be measured no one can ever give you evidence of talent. Most would consider my examples of Kissin's talent self evident.



Edited by pianoloverus (04/12/13 10:02 AM)

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#2063351 - 04/12/13 08:43 AM Re: VIRTUOSO TECHNIQUE!!! [Re: King Cole]
landorrano Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2443
Loc: France
From what I read in this thread, I'd say that baby Evgeny had an indiscutable talent at birth, that of having a mother who taught his sister Bach fugues.

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