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A little while back I went for my research to one of the Music Colleges and I saw a young girl sitting there. I noticed her because she looked very miserable and lost and I felt sorry for her. We started whispering to each other in the library about our research on music and I told her that I just started the piano from scratch as a hobby and that I was researching on some “Urtexts”.

Perhaps I sounded a bit enthusiastic, because all of a sudden she said to me: “You are very lucky because you can still appreciate music...”
I was quite startled about her comment and I did not comprehend. But her comment still haunts me.

When I prepared breakfast this morning, I listened to the radio and the news reader said that serious abuse has been reported on children as young as 10 years old in the Yehudi Menuhin School of Music.

Nigel Kennedy confirmed this allegation and added that he felt privileged to have been to the Yehudi Menuhin School of Music, but he certainly was not happy there... and a female musician, who had originally started at the Yehudi Menuhin School as a gifted young child explained how she was regularly abused at night by a conductor (she mentioned his name, but I was too shocked to register...)... and he "visited" her bed regularly at night to abuse her. Apparently she was completely petrified and her life has been messed-up ever since.

The newsreader said that five other UK Music Schools are also involved in such allegations and are being investigated...

I had always thought that music is sacrosanct and I can’t quite comprehend what I was told in the news today...
and I wonder what you think and/or what your experiences are?

Kristina.

There were always rumours about it tbh, and my father and a number of others had heard such rumours about a certain school. He always wanted me to be a top class viola player.

Two left hands and a burglary when I was young prevented this from happening as the viola was stolen.

However abusing ones power and position is unfortunately human nature (Stanford experiment)

I remember in my secondary school there were two who there were rumours about (and they were not male teachers), rumours about trading sex for grades. I'd gone to university before it blew up and one of the victims ended up stabbing the abuser.


My feeling is it is different now, I have a ton of ECRBs when I work for educational establishments. In fact there might be a feeling it has gone too far. As in a certain FE college I was warned never to step out of the gaze of the CCTV, looking at the ceiling there are ominous black CCTV domes everywhere.

The biggest problem there that's come to light was at Chetham; a former director of music and his wife were recently convicted of abuse. Sadly the victim committed suicide earlier this year.

Sharing a common interest/hobby/career with someone, no matter what it is, does not mean you have the same morals, values or personality. It is nothing to do with the type of school.
There were 5 convicted male paedophiles at my high school plus a local parish priest.
I remember a social worker telling us during a child protection course, that people with ill intent towards children try to get involved wherever children are, so it is schools, nurseries, churches, etc. It does not by any means make all people who work with kids dangerous, but simply the abusive type flock to where their prey are. CRB checks only reveal if they have been caught, but they are better than nothing.

The problem is that you have two separate topics. One of them is abuse. The other is the kind of teaching which makes a child say that you are lucky that you can still enjoy music. both are problems, but they are different.

Indeed. On the first one consensus is much easier to form.

This was also this MUSIC TEACHER, is this trait peculiar to British Music Schools?

And that one is back to the other topic.

This is terrible news - I thought at least music would be sacred.
We obviously are not as civilised as we think we are

There are people from all walks of life that abuse from parents, brothers and sisters, the pastor - anyone. Children abuse other children everywhere. It has absolutely nothing to do with music, or race, education, culture, age, colour.

We can be a viscious species. All you have to do is read the comments following any sort of controversial news story. The nastiness just pours out, the thirst for vengence, the self righteousness, the drive for self justification. We as a society can't decide whether we'd rather demonize the accused or blame the victim. And our "statesmen" who should be the soul of maturity, rationality and balance are the worst of all.
Much of the barbarism in public life today comes from the top down.

There's a lot of nasty people about both male and female.

Thankfully there's also loads of really nice caring generous folk too, but they don't make good news stories.

Thinking back to my schooldays in the seventies, there was one female teacher a fair few male pupils slept with although they were all glad of the experience at the time.

The male music teacher used to spend every music lesson telling us x rated jokes and playing any punk music he could find with the f word in (and he was head of music). He also introduced us to Derek and Clive and I must have heard nearly every recording they made in his lessons (very very very crude).

Meanwhile my wife at the nearby school is on a school trip and one of the PE (physical education/sports) teachers told her he had a bet with another teacher that he could get her into bed before the trip was over. She was 15. He failed.

And sadly I could go on and on and on but I won't.

This is the part that nobody is addressing, yet since we are studying music, shouldn't it matter a fair bit?

A one time meeting with a child means very little in the overall picture. Looking miserable one day doesn't mean she is usually that way. We all have down days.
If the child doesn't enjoy the school, it doesn't mean the school is bad either, just that children are not robots but humans like the rest of us, and what works for one , doesn't work for another. What we enjoy one year, we can lose interest in another, not necessarily the fault of the teacher or school.
Also the child may simply have meant that it is good an old person (in their eyes) can still appreciate music.

The child did not say she didn't enjoy school. She said that she can no longer appreciate music. Kristina1 may well have run into a side of music study when it is done to push young music students into (the possibility of) a virtuoso career, that can take the joy out of music. It doesn't have to be done that way, but in places it is. If you are an adult hobbyist, with your teachers knowing this, you won't be pushed that way, and you can enjoy the ride. I suspect that this is what the young student meant. It doesn't have to be actual abuse such as beating, yelling, or the extreme of sexual abuse.

Also, there is a side to music that can be both rigid and authoritarian. Some still have that mentality, especially if they think a child is gifted and they can "make something" out of that child. Ambition can also rear its ugly head in the wrong way.

It can also involve something that is not ugly per se, but when a young student is pushed to perfection, and starts seeing what actually is involved, and how far they still have to go. As you advance in music, your hearing (nuances and elements in music) refines itself so that while once you were blissfully unaware and played happily away, now you hear every flaw (which may also be pointed out to you) and the enjoyment may take a nose dive. Not being pushed that way, the adult may not have that reality --- or the child may think that is so.

Thank you all very much for your answers and your thoughts.

I do hope you are right and the two issues I have mentioned are as different as has been suggested...

Whilst I had a talk with this girl at the library of the College (sorry that I have not made this point clear enough: the College is for young students who study there instead of going to University...) ... she did not seem a person to dramatize; but she talked as if she had been robbed of her future and I think now the two issues might be connected.

I read-up your suggestions and I am quite horrified about the mental and sexual abuse on children/young students in Schools of Music and many other educational establishments.

To be quite honest, I had to stop reading after a while because it became nauseating and overwhelming...
Many of these school children and young students also travel with their teachers/lecturers to Concentration Camps to “get an idea” about some of the horrors of another barbaric age - and then the same school children/young students travel back to their schools/Colleges etc. to face their own horrors of mental and sexual abuse again every day of the week... the hypocrisy of it!

I am very surprised that the music industry has not investigated these issues?

After all, the music industry is mainly about money and there is no money to be made from empty seats in Concert Halls and people also don’t really buy music on offer anymore...

The music-loving public have their instincts and feelings about performances and recordings - and they have noticed a long while ago, that despite perfect technicalities, feelings and emotions are often missing in performances and recordings of music and something has seriously gone wrong. All those empty Concert Hall seats must have given the music industry some good indication? We all know of course, that our “computer-age” can’t be always blamed ...

I think empty concert seats have more to do with cost than lack of good performance. A recent concert cost us as much again for car parking, as it did for the tickets themselves, not to mention cost of meal beforehand as it was a schoolnight and we had to travel straight from work. The meal was worth it, the ticket price was worth the performance, but the car parking was ridiculous, especially as we were charged for standing more than half an hour in the queue at the machine waiting to pay. It is this car parking cost that limits the amount of concerts we can realistically attend, not the availability of good performances.

Kristina1, when you say "girl", what age are you talking about? I picture 8 or 9 years old, but if this is college instead of university, do you mean teens?

How interesting that only schools of music have been primarily mentioned, what about the music industry in the 60's 70's on ( and probably earlier) Jimmy saville, jimmy tarbuck, Gary Glitter, mr. deputy speaker etc etc. The catholic church.

There is actually a program on radio2 as i type this, with women and I want to make this clear: WOMEN, who are coming on the show and saying that in the seventies when they went to work they could not walk accross the car park without getting their bum groped etc, on a daily basis with all the guys wolf whistling etc etc etc.

They are clearly stating that back then this was the "norm" and that we cannot judge today by yesterdays standards.

Furthermore, there is a women Barrister on the show who goes further, she says that "gropes" back in the seventies that are being prosecuted now are Trivialising the more serious crimes of rape and abduction and rape.

She has stated that and I quote: "if a women who had her breast felt back in the seventies is still alledegdly "traumatised" by it forty years on, then she has some sort of problem that did not originate from something as minor as a grope"

These are a female barristers words not mine, make no mistake about that!!

What she is apparently getting at is that most girls/women in the sixties /seventies have been touched up in some way that was not solicitated, and today would be deemed "innapropriate" BUT, if that happens to be by a celebrity, and the media finds out about it, then they will run with it.

when asked by jeremy vine, "so if you had brought your daughter in and I put my hand up her skirt , what would you do?"

The female barrister said " I would have strong words with you and tell you off, but I wouldnt bother the police"

Her reasoning again was that compared to rape and other serious offences it was "trivial"

Again , may I just reiterate, this was all said on the show by the guests and callers, not me!!!

BBC radio 2 jeremy vine show at 1.00 pm onwards 10/05 2013.

As an aside in victorian times the age of consent was 12, and parliament voted against raising that on many occasions.... it seems some there still dont know its been changed.

Abuse is not confined to the music industry OR music schools it seems endemic throughout all walks of life, it takes no account of social status or class or creed or culture.

Here is an interesting and thought provoking factoid:

In clinical studies of Rats , the rats , given enough space, behaved in a way deemed "normal" for rats. In other words , they paired up and bred.

When more rats were introduced into the same limited space, something unexpected happened; the rats started to exhibit "homosexual traits" It appears that somewhere in their brains they knew it wasnt advantageous to bring even more offspring into the given space, and turned their sexual activity towards something that would not do this.

Given that science says we are very close to rats: ( thats how our medicines are tested etc etc)

Could it be that in this totally overcrowded world were folk are living on top of each other in a completely unnatural way, that something is actually changing humans behavioural patterns and making them behave in weird ways?

As a survivor I would completely disagree. Informing the police of a grope is not in any way trivialising rape. It is helping prevent the attitude that it is okay to touch someone without permission. Indeed the culture where this was the norm, was flawed , because it was not criminal then, doesn't mean it should not have been. Allowing and trivialising gropes etc. fosters the same attitude of rape and abuse, that the wishes of the other person is somehow less than the person who takes what doesn't belong to them.
I have always felt threatened and humiliated by wolf whistling workmen. A whole floor of female workers refused to enter the store room, because of the behaviour of the men in a well known department store, before the management took action. So I know many women agree with me, it is not flattering but humiliating.
I suspect a good many men feel the same. I would never pinch a guy's rear end. It is invasion of his personal space and degrading.
I agree with you on one point , this is not a music school issue alone, but a much wider issue.