Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2079608 - 05/09/13 02:04 AM How impatient . .
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3621
Loc: Northern England.
Are you when attacking new music? It`s a war of attrition with me. Everything is brought to bear in the fray. A blitz from the word "go!" from which there`s no let up.

I don`t sleep well at the best o` times. But when a recital`s coming up (yes, it`s months away) I try to put things to bed ASAP. Unfortunately that doesn`t seem to apply to me.

Haven`t slept much last night. Not tired now; the fight`ll go on again today.

But I can`t say I don`t enjoy it . . . Much progress was made yesterday.
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#2079610 - 05/09/13 02:14 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5318
Loc: Philadelphia
I'm extremely patient at the start. Trouble is, my patience wears out too fast. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#2079617 - 05/09/13 02:33 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
earlofmar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1587
Loc: Australia
As a now ex endurance runner I tend to treat the whole piano thing like a sport. I also find myself dreaming of practicing piano, waking up in the early hours and just taking on from where I left the night before. It's nothing new I used to be like that with my work and then my sport and now my piano. I can only hope I start to mellow a bit or I'll end up winning some battles but losing the war.
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXV-6-XXX

Top
#2079623 - 05/09/13 02:53 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
casinitaly Online   blank


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5032
Loc: Italy
I'm very impatient. V.e.r.y.
But I'm catching on to the fact that working more slowly and methodically actually ends up being a faster way to get a piece under my fingertips.

I've also found that though I'd rather be playing piano than doing almost anything else...I've moderated my playing a bit, substituting a bit more quality time for plain quantity time. smile
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
#2079648 - 05/09/13 04:22 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
SwissMS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 738
Loc: Switzerland
Oh, I am very impatient. It always takes longer to learn a new piece than I think is should, and getting from the "learned" phased to the "performance" stage, takes even longer. The biggest lesson playing piano has taught me is to be patient and methodical. If I let my impatience rule, I create all kinds of errors that make the piece take even longer to perfect.
_________________________


Working on:
Handel - Allemande in A Minor
Bach - Inv. #14
Beethoven - Sonata #79 2nd mvmt
Kuhlau op. 88 - 3

Top
#2079654 - 05/09/13 05:02 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
I'm not the least bit impatient. I get suspicious when my progress is too fast. I wonder what I'm doing wrong. That doesn't mean I don't get obsessive. I'm perfectly capable of pouring extraordinary effort into the piece that's posessing me at the time but I still expect to be in it for the long haul. I learn better that way. I think there are some neurological connections that must be formed and harden before a piece is set into your hands and mind. That can't be rushed.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

Top
#2079671 - 05/09/13 06:44 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: SwissMS]
heathermphotog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 90
Loc: Georgia
Originally Posted By: SwissMS
Oh, I am very impatient. It always takes longer to learn a new piece than I think is should, and getting from the "learned" phased to the "performance" stage, takes even longer. The biggest lesson playing piano has taught me is to be patient and methodical. If I let my impatience rule, I create all kinds of errors that make the piece take even longer to perfect.


Me too. I have to remind myself to be patient and enjoy this stage too. Glad I'm not alone smile
_________________________
~ Heather smile

Knabe WMV247
“When you play, never mind who listens to you.” ― Robert Schumann
“The piano ain't got no wrong notes.” ― Thelonious Monk

Top
#2079722 - 05/09/13 08:32 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: -Frycek]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3621
Loc: Northern England.
"I think there are some neurological connections that must be formed and harden before a piece is set into your hands and mind. That can't be rushed. "

Good way o` putting it. Like hammering smokin cursing nails into concrete . . .


Edited by peterws (05/09/13 08:32 AM)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2079799 - 05/09/13 11:22 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Canada Alberta
peterws, I have read your post, here:

Are you when attacking new music? It`s a war of attrition with me. Everything is brought to bear in the fray. A blitz from the word "go!" from which there`s no let up.

I don`t sleep well at the best o` times. But when a recital`s coming up (yes, it`s months away) I try to put things to bed ASAP. Unfortunately that doesn`t seem to apply to me.

Haven`t slept much last night. Not tired now; the fight`ll go on again today.

But I can`t say I don`t enjoy it . . . Much progress was made yesterday.

_________________________
I will invariably be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed,or numbered

____________________________________________


Like the enemy at war, it is an unknown until you are in the fight. Even when you read the piece measure by measure, it is not the same like playing the piece for the first time or at any time.

War is deadly; that is the excitement - of how long you will last or how long it will take you to win.

The other thing that is nice is that you don't need anybody to assist you in your war or anyone to be the opponent because it is all there for you when you sit down on the bench and rest your fingers on the keys.







Edited by Michael_99 (05/09/13 11:24 AM)

Top
#2079836 - 05/09/13 12:58 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
Dulcetta Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/11
Posts: 75
Loc: U.K.
People often say I am patient when they see how I approach things, but really I am not. Think swan, lol.
I am calm and determined and methodical. I like plans, routines but I attack things intensively. I don't do things half heartedly, I go overboard with perfectionist details and I plan like crazy. I need goals and when I decide to do something , I want to start yesterday, with all the tools I decide I need right there and then. I am rarely in a hurry to finish something, but I am always early whenever I need to meet a deadline. I cannot abide lateness.
I can happily practice one measure over and over again, but I am not patient , just persistent. Stubborn.
_________________________
It will be happened; it shall be going to be happening; it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future. Simple as that.

Top
#2079868 - 05/09/13 02:42 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: SwissMS]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3538
Originally Posted By: SwissMS
Oh, I am very impatient. It always takes longer to learn a new piece than I think is should, and getting from the "learned" phased to the "performance" stage, takes even longer. The biggest lesson playing piano has taught me is to be patient and methodical. If I let my impatience rule, I create all kinds of errors that make the piece take even longer to perfect.


Same here. I know how I want it at the start but getting it drilled in is such a drag... very very slow... many errors that are an insult to my ears... And indeed the drilling is only the first step. And so hard to make music at very very slow speed. How to make a crescendo while the notes are only fading away all the time???
_________________________

Top
#2079880 - 05/09/13 03:00 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: SwissMS]
AimeeO Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 04 2013


Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 803
Loc: New Orleans
I find it rather hilarious (and sad!) that I've taken lessons for three years and am FINALLY able to slow it down when learning a new piece. My poor teacher - she's been telling me this the entire time!I think part of the trouble is that I learned to sight read before taking lessons, and my fingers will automatically go to the right keys, but they are usually the wrong fingers and just throw everything off. That habit is finally breaking, but it sure did take a long time!
Originally Posted By: SwissMS
It always takes longer to learn a new piece than I think is should, and getting from the "learned" phased to the "performance" stage, takes even longer.


This is something I'm still trying to conquer. I "know" it; therefore I think it'll be a snap to speed it up, or fix a problem part I've ignored, or a transition I've ignored.. ha! These recitals on PW are certainly helping me fix that.. I want to do better when more people hear it, so it's forcing me to re-evaluate how I go about things.

Top
#2079886 - 05/09/13 03:14 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2391
Loc: Virginia, USA
I'm improving, but yeah, chalk me down as one who tries to go too fast too quickly. Like many intermediates, I'm sure, the trouble is often that there may be many measures where you can get the notes right pretty quickly after a few read throughs so you blaze the trail and then, OOPS!, smack comes a tricky measure.

The Clementi Sonata I'm learning is a good example of that. Alberti bass with nice easy 8th note melody, zoom, zoom - aargh, sudden leap. Too fast!
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebesträume No. 3, S541
  • Scarlatti - Sonata in D minor, K. 213

Kawai K3

Top
#2080137 - 05/10/13 03:18 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Richard's posts are full of insight on this, but I'll post just this favorite little snippet I keep saved.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
I gradually come up to recital speed - not by deliberately speeding up but by gradually relinquishing restraint.


If you're really impatient, then do things right and practice slowly and in very small sections, and you'll actually progress faster (sounds ironic, huh?). If I feel really impatient, I'll noodle around or play old material or something else unproductive; I won't go near new material lest I just ingrain poor mistakes that will take more time to undo later than it took to ingrain them in the first place.

Top
#2080184 - 05/10/13 06:58 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
jdw Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 974
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Luckily, my teacher is more patient than I am.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

Top
#2080307 - 05/10/13 12:15 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
KBS1607 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 60
Loc: Illinois
Quote:
This is something I'm still trying to conquer. I "know" it; therefore I think it'll be a snap to speed it up, or fix a problem part I've ignored, or a transition I've ignored.. ha! These recitals on PW are certainly helping me fix that.. I want to do better when more people hear it, so it's forcing me to re-evaluate how I go about things


Aimee, get out of my head. wink I have been taking since 2005 and FINALLY am realizing I was doing just that. 'I'll fix it in my lesson' ugh. I am also finally practicing in the correct way.
And also, realizing that getting it correct once through is not the same as being polished at it.
_________________________
Alfred Adult Level One graduated 2010
I've been taking lessons since 2005

Top
#2080417 - 05/10/13 04:16 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
JimF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: south florida
Originally Posted By: peterws
"I think there are some neurological connections that must be formed and harden before a piece is set into your hands and mind. That can't be rushed. "

Good way o` putting it. Like hammering smokin cursing nails into concrete . . .


thumb

Quite literally. Although I'm constantly trying to be patient, and even frequently advise others to be patient, the sad reality is that with almost every new piece there comes a time when my teacher must say to me..."ok, now I want you to go back and just play it very slow and very loud without dynamics and without pedal at least twice a day for a week."

This, of course, is to combat/fix the little errors I've allowed to creep in by speeding things up too soon. When I finally get through a piece start to finish without this remedial pounding stage I will know I have finally learned patience.
_________________________
La Fille aux cheveux de lin - Debussy
Ma Mere L'Oye - Ravel
Mozart Sonata K545

Estonia L190 #7284





Top
#2080611 - 05/11/13 05:01 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: JimF]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3538
Originally Posted By: JimF
the sad reality is that with almost every new piece there comes a time when my teacher must say to me..."ok, now I want you to go back and just play it very slow and very loud without dynamics and without pedal at least twice a day for a week."


Loud, without dynamics?? But that seems not the right way to me to practice, after all you then will have to unlearn the all-loud version
_________________________

Top
#2080615 - 05/11/13 05:27 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: wouter79]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11688
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Originally Posted By: JimF
the sad reality is that with almost every new piece there comes a time when my teacher must say to me..."ok, now I want you to go back and just play it very slow and very loud without dynamics and without pedal at least twice a day for a week."


Loud, without dynamics?? But that seems not the right way to me to practice, after all you then will have to unlearn the all-loud version


It depends on a lot of things. Where is the student at, and how is the teacher working with him? What is the teacher seeing? What's the overall approach.

There seem to be two philosophies. One says that you creative every musical aspect from the very beginning so that it will "be there" (and otherwise it won't be). You seem to be thinking along those lines, wouter79. (?)

I'm being taught to shape the music in layers. Even if I weren't, I'd lean in that direction because of my experiences. To work in layers, you work on simple basic aspects first --- right notes with handy fingering and basic good movement. This is done in chunks (which is already a known concept). You add other elements like dynamics, nuanced timing etc. later. The reasoning for this is that we can only concentrate on one new thing at a time. Especially if you're still getting your skills, if you try to do everything, all of it will be vague and muddy. But if you have the right notes in your hands, then you can let go to concentrating on the dynamics, get them into your hand and ear, etc. I definitely need to do this, and it works for me.

"Loud" makes sense to me, because "soft" is harder to do and can involve restraining yourself (if you're me). I have a bit of a parallel, because I used to play using mostly my fingers. To unlock, I use large exaggerated motions - like little kids drawing with jumbo crayons and using their whole arm - and then when all the joints know how they can move, let it settle down. Smaller movements also make quieter sounds.

I'm guessing that JimF's teacher has a reason and plan, based on what he (she?) is seeing.

Top
#2080620 - 05/11/13 05:49 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3538
Yes the teacher probably is right. Sometimes making mistakes is part of the path


Quote:
There seem to be two philosophies. One says that you creative every musical aspect from the very beginning so that it will "be there" (and otherwise it won't be). You seem to be thinking along those lines, wouter79. (?)


no, I'm just saying that if you ignore elements such as dynamics or timing, you end up learning them incorrectly and that you have to unlearn it later to get it right. And that unlearning is harder than learning.
_________________________

Top
#2080631 - 05/11/13 06:38 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: wouter79]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11688
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: wouter79


no, I'm just saying that if you ignore elements such as dynamics or timing, you end up learning them incorrectly and that you have to unlearn it later to get it right. And that unlearning is harder than learning.

I am seeing it more in terms of a clean blank page that hasn't been filled in yet - the "continually loud without expression" is the blank page, rather than a learned dynamic. I work this way at this point of my journey. If you heard me practice at the beginning, it wouldn't sound much like music. But I have posted two pieces at their final stage, and they both have dynamics and expression, so this does work (for me).

That is, I don't have the same instructions because I'm a different student with a different teacher, so it's not "continually loud" - but a neutral sound, and probably more on the louder side than the very quiet sound.

Top
#2080637 - 05/11/13 06:47 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: keystring]
earlofmar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1587
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: wouter79


no, I'm just saying that if you ignore elements such as dynamics or timing, you end up learning them incorrectly and that you have to unlearn it later to get it right. And that unlearning is harder than learning.

I am seeing it more in terms of a clean blank page that hasn't been filled in yet - the "continually loud without expression" is the blank page,


I am just a beginner so I accept the wisdom of my teacher who teaches me to take it very slow and not worry about dynamics and that distract me, it can be too daunting and I have to keep the learning experience as a series of hills rather than one big mountain. With the very limited experience I have if I learn a small piece and can get the notes and the rhythm right I have been able to focus on trying to put some emotion into it at that point. I guess there will be two schools of thought but no one solution that fits all
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXV-6-XXX

Top
#2080690 - 05/11/13 09:13 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: wouter79]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11940
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Yes the teacher probably is right. Sometimes making mistakes is part of the path


Quote:
There seem to be two philosophies. One says that you creative every musical aspect from the very beginning so that it will "be there" (and otherwise it won't be). You seem to be thinking along those lines, wouter79. (?)


no, I'm just saying that if you ignore elements such as dynamics or timing, you end up learning them incorrectly and that you have to unlearn it later to get it right. And that unlearning is harder than learning.


Not necessarily. I will often tell my students to practice it "wrong" on purpose. The same could be said for blocking chords, practicing in rhythms, playing staccato or legato (opposite of what is written), dynamic change, and even the "slow practice" concept. You do these things but they must have a purpose. I doubt the teacher always recommends this approach for every student in every situation, but I can see situations where this might be a good approach for a time.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#2080697 - 05/11/13 09:30 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11940
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: peterws
Are you when attacking new music? It`s a war of attrition with me. Everything is brought to bear in the fray. A blitz from the word "go!" from which there`s no let up.

I don`t sleep well at the best o` times. But when a recital`s coming up (yes, it`s months away) I try to put things to bed ASAP. Unfortunately that doesn`t seem to apply to me.

Haven`t slept much last night. Not tired now; the fight`ll go on again today.

But I can`t say I don`t enjoy it . . . Much progress was made yesterday.
I do have trouble with being impatient. Often I will go out with both guns blazing, but not have a good plan, or something comes up and the time I have available changes and I don't adjust my plan accordingly. So then the project drags out way beyond where it should have gone, and then I'm left with frustration and stopping before I feel the piece is finished. Yes, this even happens to teachers. wink

I am, however, being very methodical about my approach as of late, because I have a TON of music to learn. I've also chosen my piano pieces wisely, and I have 7 that I'm working on, but they are short. That way I'm keeping variety, but then I'm forced to be smart about my practicing. I spend 15 minutes a day per piece plus an extra 15 minutes on one of the 7 pieces. That's 2 hours, but it's spread out over the day. That also leaves me with an hour of singing practice during the week, or 1.5 hrs on the weekends.

I think being task-oriented is the most important part of practicing. Only committing to 15 minutes on a piece means I can generally only pick one thing: figure out how to play this one passage, how to do this transition, work on this tempo, better fingering, etc. That way you're always accomplishing something, and that is inspiring in itself.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#2080700 - 05/11/13 09:32 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
JimF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: south florida
I think some may have missed my point. Or I didn't express it correctly.

The remedial pounding instruction is just that...remedial...to fix an error, whether it's a note or fingering or something else, that I have managed to ingrain into the piece by being impatient....which is the topic of the thread.

It's not the only thing I would be doing with the piece, or the only way I would be practicing it.
_________________________
La Fille aux cheveux de lin - Debussy
Ma Mere L'Oye - Ravel
Mozart Sonata K545

Estonia L190 #7284





Top
#2080750 - 05/11/13 11:00 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
casinitaly Online   blank


Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5032
Loc: Italy
My teacher sometimes tells me to play a piece incorrectly **for a short period of time*** so that I can learn what has to be learned.

Like what Morodiene said: He tells me to play block chords instead of the arpeggios - or he'll tell me to just play all the RIGHT notes, and not worry about the tempo at all.

It is all part of the building a block at a time. Some folks can go straight to the arpeggios or the right tempo ... I can't always get it right away.

It all comes back to going slower for a time before speeding up.
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
#2080770 - 05/11/13 11:42 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11688
Loc: Canada
I've only responded to someone else's post, rather than giving my own take on "impatient". Almost a decade ago I had lessons on a different instrument. They were my first ever lessons, and the instrument was new to me. I advanced very fast - several grades in one year. I did my first exam early and passed with a high grade. Then there were problems. I learned after this that for me at least, getting at basic things and learning how to approach pieces in stages seemed to bring me much further in the long run. This also seems to be true for piano.

I had a piano when I was a teen and taught myself. I have to relearn how I do basic things because how I do them ties me in knots. It's really weird not to let yourself dash off something half baked, and instead "learn" to play one note after the other. But when you see how much better you end up playing, then you want to be patient, even if you're not, but you are, but you aren't.

Top
#2080824 - 05/11/13 12:50 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: keystring]
cefinow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/10
Posts: 362
Loc: Western NC (US)
Originally Posted By: keystring
But when you see how much better you end up playing, then you want to be patient, even if you're not, but you are, but you aren't.


I agree with this sentence even though I don't understand the last part. grin

I can totally identify with the "impatience" motif running throughout this thread! It can be so counterproductive but seems to be an instinctively "right" approach when first enthusiastically approaching a piece. This week I have a lot of fabulous new music to learn and it is just SOOO hard to restrain myself-- don't go on to that passage yet! I was impressed with Morodienne's remark that the more music she had to learn, the more methodically she approached it. My tendency is to approach the whole lot like a puppy trying to catch a whole herd of geese at once... lots of excitement and running around, but puppy is left standing surrounded by lots of feathers on the ground, and no goose!

Well it doesn't help that my new interim teacher can work that way-- tackle the whole thing and handle the whole concept, music and execution, effortlessly. I need to admit to myself once and for all, I am not like him and can not, now or ever, impress him... vanity begone. My last teacher was much more helpful with surgical dissection of technical problems and disciplined slow practice (slow progress more than slow tempo). Gotta put on my careful spectacles again as I call them and start work-- not on the whole piece, but on certain measures and passages. It's some consolation that Beethoven, Chopin and Bach will wait very patiently till I manage to learn their music.

Top
#2080902 - 05/11/13 03:32 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: cefinow]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3621
Loc: Northern England.
"It's some consolation that Beethoven, Chopin and Bach will wait very patiently till I manage to learn their music."

I guess one day I too will be patient. I hope I`m not a patient before that happens . . . eek
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2080933 - 05/11/13 04:51 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
Bluoh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/11
Posts: 421
Loc: Canada
Even the most patient person gets annoyed at one point during their playing.

There's a difference between playing mindlessly (you're daydreaming) and playing mindfully (e.g. to polish it). Most people switch back and forth and that's what makes it frustrating-- you've been "playing for a long time" and you "don't seem to get better".

Also, you need to give your mind and body a rest; hours of sitting at the bench doesn't help!

---

More than impatient, I used to get really discouraged at my piano lessons. (Doesn't help that I had a perfectionist, not-so-nice teacher.) But I wouldn't have the patience to practice those same things over and over again at home. It was just as well, because I caught on quickly and I never really had to practice for hours (when I first started piano).

It was only later on when I started performing that these inner battles came up; will my fingers ever be as quick and light as Liszt's? Will my memory slip during this part? And it became so stressful.

Luckily, I've grown past that and I'm helping other people get past that too. smile

Top
#2081644 - 05/13/13 12:52 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: wouter79]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5318
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Originally Posted By: JimF
the sad reality is that with almost every new piece there comes a time when my teacher must say to me..."ok, now I want you to go back and just play it very slow and very loud without dynamics and without pedal at least twice a day for a week."


Loud, without dynamics?? But that seems not the right way to me to practice, after all you then will have to unlearn the all-loud version

Not in your fingers -- only in your ears. There is a school of thought that "hammering" the piece into your fingers is the fastest way to get it under them, and that usually requires a louder (or more solid) approach. One must be aware of overkill, making sure not to "bang", because that additional shock can lead to injury. But, generally, it is much easier to learn one thing at a time -- fingering, movements, dynamics; and usually (though not always) in that order.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#2081741 - 05/13/13 07:23 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: Derulux]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11688
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Not in your fingers -- only in your ears. There is a school of thought that "hammering" the piece into your fingers is the fastest way to get it under them, and that usually requires a louder (or more solid) approach. One must be aware of overkill, making sure not to "bang", because that additional shock can lead to injury. But, generally, it is much easier to learn one thing at a time -- fingering, movements, dynamics; and usually (though not always) in that order.

Seriously? Wow. That school of thought is new to me. I once saw a clip from some old fashioned or other-country school room, where all the kids were shouting out what they had to memorize (times tables? spelling?). Is it that kind of thing? I've heard the expression "Hammer it into your brain." but I didn't think of this almost literal kind of hammering.


Edited by keystring (05/13/13 07:24 AM)

Top
#2081747 - 05/13/13 07:48 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: Derulux]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2391
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Not in your fingers -- only in your ears. There is a school of thought that "hammering" the piece into your fingers is the fastest way to get it under them, and that usually requires a louder (or more solid) approach. One must be aware of overkill, making sure not to "bang", because that additional shock can lead to injury. But, generally, it is much easier to learn one thing at a time -- fingering, movements, dynamics; and usually (though not always) in that order.


I'm pretty sure my teacher wouldn't recommend that. What she has recommended, frequently, is mixing it all up. Play fff. Now play ppp. Now "swing" it (or play dotted 8th, 16th - dotted 8th, 16th); reverse "swing"; play an octave higher, play an octave lower, play right hand down an octave and left up (usually means overlapping the arms); play staccato; play very legato. You get the idea.


Edited by Andy Platt (05/13/13 08:24 AM)
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebesträume No. 3, S541
  • Scarlatti - Sonata in D minor, K. 213

Kawai K3

Top
#2081751 - 05/13/13 07:58 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: Andy Platt]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11688
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Andy Platt

I'm pretty sure my teacher wouldn't recommend that. What she has recommended, frequently, is mixing it all up. Play fff. Now play ppp. Now "swing" it (or play dotted 8th, 16th - dotted 8th, 16th); reverse "swing"; play an octave higher, play an octave lower, play right hand down and octave and left up (usually means overlapping the arms); play staccato; play very legato. You get the idea.


Flashback. My first violin recital (adult student), rehearsal with accompanist (also first ever). Like most, she was also a teacher. There was a passage I'd had problems with forever and got hung up on it during the rehearsal. She suggest that I play it in different rhythms. I thought this was nuts, because if I can't play it in simple regular notes, how could I possibly play it in rhythms. But I tried it, and it worked. I still don't understand why.

Top
#2081753 - 05/13/13 07:59 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: Andy Platt]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11940
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Andy Platt
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Not in your fingers -- only in your ears. There is a school of thought that "hammering" the piece into your fingers is the fastest way to get it under them, and that usually requires a louder (or more solid) approach. One must be aware of overkill, making sure not to "bang", because that additional shock can lead to injury. But, generally, it is much easier to learn one thing at a time -- fingering, movements, dynamics; and usually (though not always) in that order.


I'm pretty sure my teacher wouldn't recommend that. What she has recommended, frequently, is mixing it all up. Play fff. Now play ppp. Now "swing" it (or play dotted 8th, 16th - dotted 8th, 16th); reverse "swing"; play an octave higher, play an octave lower, play right hand down and octave and left up (usually means overlapping the arms); play staccato; play very legato. You get the idea.
This is what I was thinking as well. If a student has a habit of playing extremely softly, however, a teacher might recommend they play everything comfortably loud to learn it.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#2081756 - 05/13/13 08:07 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: Derulux]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1281
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Derulux
But, generally, it is much easier to learn one thing at a time -- fingering, movements, dynamics; and usually (though not always) in that order.



Yes. Anything other than mono-tasking is counter-productive. Commit one process to auto-pilot before moving onto the next.

Top
#2081892 - 05/13/13 12:47 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: keystring]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5318
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Not in your fingers -- only in your ears. There is a school of thought that "hammering" the piece into your fingers is the fastest way to get it under them, and that usually requires a louder (or more solid) approach. One must be aware of overkill, making sure not to "bang", because that additional shock can lead to injury. But, generally, it is much easier to learn one thing at a time -- fingering, movements, dynamics; and usually (though not always) in that order.

Seriously? Wow. That school of thought is new to me. I once saw a clip from some old fashioned or other-country school room, where all the kids were shouting out what they had to memorize (times tables? spelling?). Is it that kind of thing? I've heard the expression "Hammer it into your brain." but I didn't think of this almost literal kind of hammering.

Yeah, it's one of those "fine line" deals. I believe the idea is something like this: when you try to learn something softly, most people hesitate in their movements, but when you play louder, you don't have a choice but to not hesitate. However, like I said, I think if you were to take it too far (and think literally of hammering, banging, or pounding) that you would probably lead yourself down a road towards repetitive stress injury.

Originally Posted By: Andy Platt
I'm pretty sure my teacher wouldn't recommend that. What she has recommended, frequently, is mixing it all up. Play fff. Now play ppp. Now "swing" it (or play dotted 8th, 16th - dotted 8th, 16th); reverse "swing"; play an octave higher, play an octave lower, play right hand down an octave and left up (usually means overlapping the arms); play staccato; play very legato. You get the idea.

It's quite possible. I don't particularly subscribe to "banging" as a method, either. However, I also believe there are better methods to get versatility trained into your fingers than practicing a passage incorrectly. I realize there is a significant percentage of teachers that believe in this methodology, but I've always disagreed with it. If the intent is to find some new musical expression by overdoing certain musical stresses in the passage, then absolutely -- that's how you do it. But if the intent is simply to learn the notes, I would focus on learning them correctly.

If you've ever seen the movie "Tin Cup," you'll probably understand this analogy: Kevin Costner's character gets the "shanks" and can't find his swing. He works on it for days, but can't fix it. In order to correct it, his caddie tells him to turn his hat around, untuck his pants, put his change in the other pocket, put his golf glove on his other hand, etc. Costner stops thinking about the swing and hits the ball beautifully.

Now, one idea is to do all of those ridiculous things to get your head out of the way so you can find the swing again (assuming, of course, that you had a swing in the first place). Another idea is to understand that the "shanks" is usually a result of a swing tempo that is just a little too fast. When you compensate for that, you don't have to do all the other stuff to get back to "normal".

So, when I attack a problem, whether it's piano or not, I attack it in the most direct manner, rather than circumventing it and taking the longest possible winding route to get there. If you know exactly what motions cause a missed note, or an uneven rhythm, etc., then you don't have to do all the other stuff to try and arrive at the solution by intuition. You can simply correct the incorrect motion. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#2081930 - 05/13/13 01:54 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: keystring]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Andy Platt

I'm pretty sure my teacher wouldn't recommend that. What she has recommended, frequently, is mixing it all up. Play fff. Now play ppp. Now "swing" it (or play dotted 8th, 16th - dotted 8th, 16th); reverse "swing"; play an octave higher, play an octave lower, play right hand down and octave and left up (usually means overlapping the arms); play staccato; play very legato. You get the idea.

Flashback. My first violin recital (adult student), rehearsal with accompanist (also first ever). Like most, she was also a teacher. There was a passage I'd had problems with forever and got hung up on it during the rehearsal. She suggest that I play it in different rhythms. I thought this was nuts, because if I can't play it in simple regular notes, how could I possibly play it in rhythms. But I tried it, and it worked. I still don't understand why.

I think practicing in rhythms works because it permits some periods of longs notes, where you can think for a bit (even if it's not a very looooooong long note), and then you whip through a short note, and then you have a long note again to think. So you get time to think periodically, and you learn how to play half of the notes fast (the short notes in a long-short rhythm) fast. Then you reverse it and play short-long, and learn how to play the other half of the notes fast, while giving yourself again time to think on the new long notes. It's like you're bracing yourself to play just two notes at a time, over and over through the piece.

Anyway, that's what it feels like to me when I'm practicing in rhythms. I do find rhythms helpful. Another thing I find them helpful for is: do I really know the notes? Or do I just know some featureless mush which is TheWholePieceAllAtOnce without really knowing the parts of the piece and without being able to maniuplate them at will.

Once I have the basic notes and dynamics down initially, I like practicing in varied ways because it makes me feel flexibility with a piece, and more power of the choices I may ultimately make for it. I suppose this may conflict with the idea that I should have a piece learned exactly one way so that when I approach, say, a soft section, everything in me by Pavlovian reflex and automatic pilot goes "sssh! soft", but I feel like I get more understanding of a piece by practicing it in varied ways.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#2081956 - 05/13/13 03:15 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11688
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

I think practicing in rhythms works because it permits some periods of longs notes, where you can think for a bit (even if it's not a very looooooong long note), and then you whip through a short note, and then you have a long note again to think.

This was a physical motion thing where the the body would get stuck or hung up in a motion. Thinking wasn't part of it, but since rhythm is motion, maybe that's what got altered. I wonder if there's an equivalent in sports.

Top
#2082412 - 05/14/13 11:46 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
carolinagirl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 54
I am enjoying this thread. I am VERY impatient. I want to be able to play piano in the worst way.....have wanted this for years. I bought a Clavinova a month ago and started lessons (I have had 3 lessons so far). When I got the piano, the woman who owned the store gave me the book we'd be using and a 10 minute mini lesson. When I returned the following week, I could play everything in the book. So she skipped the other two level one books and gave me a level two book. Same thing the following week....I showed up at the lesson and could play the book. So she's dropped those books all together and gave me something more challanging. Now the material is much harder and I am making slower progress which frustrates me but I enjoy a good challange and am very determined to get this. I have learned a simplified version of 12th Street Rag and the first part of Fur Elise on my own. So now I am really working hard on polishing things, timing, pedaling, etc. And I am really trying hard to learn to read this music more quickly and move on to more complicated stuff. I keep having to remind myself it's only been a month. And I really have to get over stage fright because I can't play a thing if someone is watching me.
_________________________
Yamaha CLP 440 Delivered on April 16 2013
Started playing piano April 16 2013

Top
#2082416 - 05/14/13 11:54 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: carolinagirl]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2391
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: carolinagirl
So she's dropped those books all together and gave me something more challanging. Now the material is much harder and I am making slower progress which frustrates me but I enjoy a good challange and am very determined to get this. I have learned a simplified version of 12th Street Rag and the first part of Fur Elise on my own. So now I am really working hard on polishing things, timing, pedaling, etc. And I am really trying hard to learn to read this music more quickly and move on to more complicated stuff. I keep having to remind myself it's only been a month. And I really have to get over stage fright because I can't play a thing if someone is watching me.


Just be careful. Fur Elise, for example: First part is relatively easy. OK, got to make sure the arpeggios are phrased nicely and you want some nice shaping of the main motive. But then things get hard quickly. Now, I'm not going to say you can't pull it off because there are people on here who have played a Chopin Ballade when they have no business doing so.

Personally, I would have started with easier repertoire that is still beyond the first method books. Things like some of Bach's Anna Magdalena notebook for example. But see how you do ... you can always say, "nope, not yet" and move to easier pieces. I've done that a ton of times.
_________________________
  • Liszt - Liebesträume No. 3, S541
  • Scarlatti - Sonata in D minor, K. 213

Kawai K3

Top
#2082421 - 05/14/13 12:04 PM Re: How impatient . . [Re: Andy Platt]
carolinagirl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/01/13
Posts: 54
I was looking at the sheet music for the entire Fur Elise last night and decided it was too advanced for me at this point. The first part is pretty easy and very beautiful. I will look into Bach's Anna Magdalena notebook. While I do want a challange, I don't want one that's so challanging that it will discourage me.
_________________________
Yamaha CLP 440 Delivered on April 16 2013
Started playing piano April 16 2013

Top
#2082964 - 05/15/13 08:16 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2554
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
My response to new pieces is a belief that I will NEVER be able to play this.
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

Top
#2082977 - 05/15/13 08:37 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: peterws]
sinophilia Offline

Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014


Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 984
Loc: Italy
Anyway, I am more impatient than any of you grin

I forced myself to work slowly and carefully on just two pieces (Grieg's and the next ABF recital's) and I managed to do that for two weeks. Then in the last few days I think I tried out at least ten different things of all sorts!
_________________________
Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
Martha Argerich... is an incarnation of the artistic metaphor of the "eternal feminine" that draws us upward. (Sergio Sablich)

Top
#2082987 - 05/15/13 08:46 AM Re: How impatient . . [Re: carolinagirl]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11940
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: carolinagirl
I was looking at the sheet music for the entire Fur Elise last night and decided it was too advanced for me at this point. The first part is pretty easy and very beautiful. I will look into Bach's Anna Magdalena notebook. While I do want a challange, I don't want one that's so challanging that it will discourage me.
That is kind of what I was thinking when I read about what you were doing in another post, but often it's best that you come to that conclusion on your own. The first part is easy, as are many difficult pieces, they lull you into thinking you can tackle them until you get to the meaty stuff. However, you can still enjoy playing the beginning for others, since that is the most recognizable. Most people don't even know there's more to it. wink As you improve, you can always revisit this piece, it can act as a "baseline" for you to determine how you are progressing as a pianist. Not a bad thing, either.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Piano Tuner Recommendation
by DancerJ
42 minutes 41 seconds ago
Opening a Kawai ES7
by ColoRodney
Today at 03:32 PM
Kawai MP11 black key noise?
by rungabic
Today at 11:35 AM
Rachmaninoff 2 and broken strings
by Anne'sson
Today at 09:31 AM
Kawai CN24 vs Kawai CA65 Vs Acoustic
by Luca33
Today at 08:55 AM
Who's Online
139 registered (anotherscott, accordeur, ajames, Anne'sson, 40 invisible), 1672 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76285 Members
42 Forums
157692 Topics
2316258 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission