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I'm thinking seriously about buying the Kawai VPC1, but I haven't had the chance to try it.

I tried:
- Kawai MP-6: the action was too hard.
- Kawai CA65: ok
- Roland FP-80: ok

My question is, how does the action of VPC1 feel compared to these keyboards?

Another thing that concerns me is the latency. In the Kawai website it's written:
"It is true that digital pianos offer a very low latency playing experience (i.e. there are no perceived delays when pressing the keys), providing an excellent sense of 'connection' for the player. However, with the correct hardware and software configuration, the VPC1 and virtual piano software can also achieve a minimal latency, resulting in a keyboard-sound 'connection' that rivals the very best digital pianos"

So, is it really the same than in a DP? Or it's really close but not the same??

Latency ;

- if you have a recent MacBook Pro - preferably with enough RAM and SSD / Flash drive, latency shouldn't be an issue. I can set Pianoteq to a buffer size of 64 samples (1.3ms output latency) on my Retina and it works without problems. I DO sometimes wonder if the latency of the whole system is meant here, or only the buffer size of the pianoteq engine. Assuming the first , the delay should be inaudible, even at 128ms.

- If you use an old machine or one with a problematic configuration (hardware / drivers mismatch etc), latency may be an issue.

As far as the VPC1 is concerned ; are you in a hurry ? It seems to be sold out for a while...(ahum)

As far as touch is concerned, the VPC1 offers IMHO the best in the list you showed. MP6 has aged indeed and has a slower keybed, The FP80 is fine, but noisier. CA-65 is also good, but of course not a stage model and more expensive. VPC1 + software seems to be a good deal , if (!) you have a decent computer setup.

The VPC1 is a fantastic board. Of your list, only the CA65 has a better action (by a little). The possibility of using different touch curves, and of editing them (so far only under Windows) for the VPC1 is a big plus.

I've coupled the VPC1 with my little red one (a Nord Electro) and latency is not a problem at all, so MIDI is definitely not a bottleneck. However, a computer setup MAY be - depending also on your expectations of an immediate connection with a software sound generator. I admit I've not yet sorted these kinds of problems with my somewhat oldish MacBook Pro, but then again I'm not the type of person wanting to spend hours to get a computer setup right. But I am enjoing my red&black combo a lot...

Apparently, you have no experience using VSTs / piano software.

If that is true, I would suggest that you try running something like Pianoteq (free demo) with your present DP just to get a sense of how it works before you LEAP into something like that VPC1, which has no onboard sounds of its own.

If you like that sound, at least you will have one known sound you can purchase and use with the VPC1 when you receive it.

If you do not like that sound, then you might try one of the other piano software products. You may have to purchase it.

In any event, I would not suggest you purchase the VPC1 until you have settled on at least one piano software product that you like.

I, personally, would be (and am) reluctant to purchase a machine with no onboard sounds. I am just not that enthralled with software piano sounds to go ... ALL IN ... on that idea. That is just me, of course. Others love them and have no issues with that at all.

I would just exercise some caution here.

The VPC1 action will feel similar to the CA65, although not exactly the same.
The MP10 will also offer a similar touch feeling. If you are able to find the CA15, this will provide an identical touch as it uses the same 'RM3 Grand II' keyboard action as the VPC1.

Regarding latency, as the Q&A on the website explains, this depends largely on your computer hardware. A reasonably modern Mac or PC should run most software instruments with relatively low latency, with faster processors, ram, and harddrives all helping. An audio interface will typically offer lower latency (and higher sound quality) than built-in audio.

As others have suggested, it may be worthwhile to download the Pianoteq software and try it in 'trial' mode with your current digital piano. If using a Windows machine and built-in audio, be sure to also download the 'ASIO4ALL' sound driver for improved latency.

There are many online resources that discuss software instruments and latency in considerable detail. The purpose of the latency section on the Q&A on the VPC site is largely to reassure visitors that the VPC1 does not contribute to latency.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
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Good advice here.

You should figure out the VST side of things first and see if it will suit your needs before considering getting just a controller.

JFP is correct, I've scoured the uk music stores trying to buy a VPC1 nobody' s got any and they are not sure when they will..seems like they sold out very quickly.

James have you any idea when the next batch will arrive in the UK?

Thank you for all your answers! I think I'm going to buy it (when the next batch arrives!) if I can get sure about the latency issue.
I'm using piano software already because my actual piano is a controller also (ESI K.ON).

I'm upgrading to another keyboard because of the bad action & lack of connection I have with my actual one.

As I've never owned a digital piano (only this ESI) I'm not sure if all my bad feeling comes from the action or from the latency too. (That's why my first question!)

I've got:
TruePianos
Pianoteq 4 TRIAL
Galaxy Vintage D (Kontakt 5)

All of them configured with ASIO driver:
- Sample rate 44100 Hz
- Audio buffer size: 64 samples

In pianoteq it appears a latency of 1,5ms but in Kontakt 5 I can see:
Processing 1,5 ms | Output 5,1 ms | Overall 6,6 ms

With this configuration and a latency of 6,6 ms is it worth to get the VPC1?

Product manager of the Numa Concert (hardware stage piano) boasts about a total latency of about 4 to 4.5 ms, so presumably that is a good overall value. My guess is, if you can get near a total latency of 4 ~ 5 you're on the save side and as it seems on par with hardware.

Side-note: somewhere I also read that Roland SN piano's can have increased latency when you're pounding the keys and pedaling a lot. Don't know if that is true but it indicates that even hardware can have alternating latency when the processing load increases. Again ; don't know if that is the case with modern hardware. In the 80's and 90's MIDI was a key cause for latency problems. Even internally the note-on information was processed as MIDI @ MIDI speeds which is slow when many notes are played rapidly - to say the least...

With up-to-date hardware , be it computer or keyboard gear, I wouldn't worry too much about latency...

I know , I know....:-(

Otherwise I could have tested all latency settings by now. It's not supposed to be...

I believe the general advice from previous threads is that latency of 10ms (or less) is usually unnoticeable, so 6.6ms sounds quite good.

Thomann indicates estimated availability on May 31st, three weeks from now.

I see 5.3 INPUT latency and 7.3 OUTPUT latency with my Pianoteq and I do not notice any delay.

I also blend the Pianoteq sound with my DP sound through a mixer and do not detect any echo effect, which would be true if there was noticeable latency.

So, I agree ... 6.6 should be fine.

I hope you're right, but I'm afraid not. Thomann and music store have a history of changing and shifting dates and all responses I got so far was end of August. Perhaps early August with a bit of luck. Nevertheless the big stores could be firs in line and get an earlier batch that's currently on its way. Only Kawai knows...

JFP, who told you end of August?

Thomann and other retailers should receive additional stock later this month. However, back-order will obviously be filled first, potentially reducing the number of units available for 'new' customers.

Kind regards,
James
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Hi,



A lot has been said in these forums about latency. First of all, is hard to determine the overall latency as usually the numbers we see are just a part ot the actual latency. There is latency in the ASIO driver, latency while processing audio, latency in the time that take sound waves to propagate from the speakers to your ear, latency in the DACs in the soundcard, and so on...

Even the digital pianos built-in sounds have some latency (very low indeed). Even acoustic pianos have latency (see discussion here: http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/37769-Acoustic-piano-latency).

IMHO, if you only want to play and are not worried with recording issues, the best way to determine if latency is acceptable is just playing: if you are able to perceive latency, that's bad... if you cannot perceive latency then you cannot go better than that.

But for answering your question, the latencies that are you posting are very good... in my setup I cannot perceive even higher latencies.

One trick: if you increase the sample rate, then the latencies will decrease. For instance, going from 48Khz to 96Khz will decrease latency. The downside is that if you hear cracks you will have to increase the buffer size (increasing the latency).

Regards,
Kurt.-

"Nevertheless the big stores could be first in line and get an earlier batch that's currently on its way. " (earlier quote)

August is for recent orders , like mine, confirmed by both dealer and Kawai. Pitty. Note: Over here ; perhaps not for all countries...

More generally, the latency reported by the various software pianos are not calculated the same way, so they are not necessarily comparable and the number you get is not necessarily the same as the time it takes for sound to hit your ear after the key strike (which is what matters). They may or may not include several of the components of latency you mentioned.



I agree. As a general benchmark, I can't discern any latency at all when my buffer is set such that Galaxy reports less than the low teens. If I can't discern it, it doesn't matter. When things get closer to 20ms, latency can be rather frustrating.

Of course, if you really want to be frustrated with latency, you need to play a large pipe organ.

I have one on order from sweetwater. The current eta is end of May but the date has been pushed forward a couple of times now so I will believe it when I see it.

A Large Pipe Organ ?

Well, the church building around it is obviously finished already.

Shipping costs are going to be insane!

@ Vid:

On the serious side ...

I will be interested in your view on improvement in SOUND with Pianoteq and/or Vintage D when you switch to VPC1.

I am still not convinced that the "Magic" velocity curve feature is significant in producing better (as in more pleasing) sound.

I hope you can shed some light on that.

Well, I'm not expecting the "sound" to improve (the software is going to be the same). What I wanted is a better action/feel of the keyboard for more expresivity, I hope this will lead to a more pleasing "global sound". Anyway, I'll post how I feel about the new keyboard, when I get it... (it seems that I'll have to wait)



Now that I was decided with the keyboard... there aren't! >.< I wanted to buy it in a local store (in Barcelona). Do you know when is it going to be available there, Kawai James?

I expect the same. I'm hoping the keyboard will afford a lot more subtle control and "feel" more like the real thing.

As for sound its true that the sound generation is not going to change but I wonder how much difference the pedal is going to make. The other upgrade for me will be from an on/off switch sustain pedal to a graded sustain pedal. I assume I will have more subtle control over the resulting sound with the graded one. I'm also expecting the 3 light sensor to make faster passages easier to achieve.

Maybe I'll try a before and after recording to document the difference.

The sound of my teachers (acoustic) piano is different when she plays compared to when I play it. It's all down to technique, skill, training - touch. So maybe the VPC touch curves will help.

I've been using a Kawai VPC1 for about a week now, and I can tell you its just an amazing piece of equipment! I actually, just put together a review of it here:

http://youtu.be/rq93A6D1gps

I'll be using this to control the new Ravenscroft virtual piano from VI Labs.

I'm fascinated with the actual Ravenscroft 275 acoustic piano, as well as coming pretty close to mimmicking that action on the VPC1 (more on that later).

Thank you from a further different piano man Charlie, also the happy owner of a Great kawai dp, and ravenscroft (the sw, of course).
Super review.

Nicely done Chuck, thanks for posting.

It's good that you commented on how well the Nord pianos play from the VPC1's action too. I'm using a similar setup at home (Kawai MP8II & Nord Elcetro).

Cheers,
James
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Nice review.
Right now I have a bunch of sheet music spread all over the top of my VPC. Set whatever I'm playing in front of me. Haven't decided yet if I like using the music holder more. Or just laying the music down. Have a little lift at the back with a little shelf there. Can get a little more angle on the sheet music. Am really liking this setup. Very ergo dynamic.

I have talked about customizing the curves for more touch. Nice I can do that for now in pianoteq. Found I really don't think I want that. Just wanting to pick up the touch better, physiologically. It's there in the piano. I think the key to this for me is exact height of my seat versus the keys. The setup for my arm position for feel.

I like the 'heavier' keys. I've heard it said that us less experienced players can more easily get dynamics/expression out of such keys than light keys. Like it being easier for me.

I do presume the midi generator and setup are as good as one can get. I've played lesser.

I am finding contrary to the complaint of having to go through turning on a software piano. I leave mine on all the time. With my Mac, even in sleep mode it will play. Can walk up to it anytime and play.

I'm trying to picture this... do you have a photo?



They have a Mac version of the editor coming out sometime next month.



I don't mind setting up the software each time... after waiting two and a half minutes for my Korg Kronos to boot up, its not that much different.

Thanks, James. Actually, when I tried the VPC1 to control my Nord Stage 2 (Fazioli piano sample)... WOW! It was like a completely new experience! Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your viewpoint), that VPC1 is really spoiling me.

It should be available on Tuesday. And yes, I did explain to my colleagues that this is April Fools Day...

James
x

Totally agree!

You can leave your computer in sleep mode, and it can still play the software piano?! How does that work?

Great review - thanks for sharing!

I use Pianoteq (windows 7) and leave it 'running'. I just need to turn on the VPC1 wait a couple of seconds and start playing. Only time this doesn't work is if windows has run an update and restarted.

There! I finally got it! You wanted to see how it's set up? I do feel like putting something at the bottom of the cover of the VPC to stop the papers from sliding down. Sometimes they do. Thinking about it.

On the working with it in sleep mode. I don't know how? It just does?

LOL!! Exact same reaction

Cute how you people flatter the Fatar action on the Nords.

Ah... now that I can see it close up, I do like that setup! You have so much more information in front of you than what the music stand provides. Yes, something at the bottom of the cover of the VPC1 would be good to stop the papers from sliding!

You know what they say.... A clean desktop is the sign of a sick mind.

I've thought about adding a very thin sheet of wood or plastic as a backing for the sheet music. Just keep thinking. Adding...

Also is interesting that the music holder provided is not a big obstruction to the computer monitor when nothing on it. I still prefer it the way I have it in the picture.

Chuck, just curious if you get a similar "wow" playing the Kronos piano from the VPC1?

I'm sure I would if I would try it. Unfortunately, the Kronos is at home for a project, while the VPC1 and Nord are here at my office studio. The Nord (Stage 2) is easily transportable. The Kronos and VPC1 are not so easy to transport due to their size & weight.

My setup is not nearly as elaborate

I like it! Its a lot like my home setup... no distractions, just the keyboards

I'm not quite satisfied yet. I'd like the Nord to sit even lower but the next step on the K&M stand I use would be lower than the top of the VPC-1 so that's not possible.

I also haven't found a good solution for a music stand yet. The VPC-1 stand is not usable in that setup and I don't really want to pay for the Nord music stand, simply because the price is just ridiculous for that silly piece of metal.

Right now though it's good and clean enough. I like uncluttered spaces.

Not pictured btw is my Mac that's running Pianoteq and Ivory.

I agree with you about the price of the Nord music stand - just ridiculous... I won't pay that kind of money for it.
A solution for you would be to put the VPC1 on the upper tier, but then you'd have a hard time with the controls on the Nord.

Hello,

I consider to buy a VPC1 as a master keyboard. I plan to play piano, organ and other synth sounds.
Do you think it's a goos idea to use the VPC1 for all style or it's not versatile for all sounds, any better versaltile option maybe ?
Regards

I think VPC1 should be considered only for piano, that's what its mechanic is designed for; if you need a more generic Hammer action weighted master look at other options, for example the new Viscount Physis Piano K4 and K5

any cheaper option maybe ?

Casio PX-5S is pretty versatile and affordable at $999. For the same price as the VPC1 you can get the new Kawai MP7 which seems to be a great DP.

Yes, the MP7 would be an interesting master keyboard alternative to the VPC1.

For pure piano playing, the VPC1 is very difficult to beat, however for broader MIDI control over a range of different instruments, a stage piano such as the MP7 is arguably the better choice.

Aside from Kawai, the Casio PX-5S represents excellent value for money, with lots of great sounds and stage piano features. There are also lots of 'controller only' products available from Studiologic, M-Audio, CME, etc.

Kind regards,
James
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I bought myself a K&M Omega stand for my VPC. That should make James happy.
I also bought a 40 inch TV (computer monitor). Will post pictures when I got it done.

Basically just reorganizing and ridding the place of clutter. Probably the result of finally working in a System of learning piano that places much importance on the mind. Keeping organized, clear, thought out. A System that doesn't skip any steps in learning. So I'm not passing on this step.

Again... will add pictures to this post when I get this stuff here and the place done.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a cover for the VPC-1. Right now I don't have one but I also don't want it to get too dusty.

I purchased this and it works nicely:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/gator-88-key-stretchy-keyboard-cover

I use this exact Gator cover as well on both my boards. Great cover. You can pull cord for snug custom-like fit. It's like Spanx for your keyboard

I'm still doing this. Expanded on what I had planned.
In doing so. I have my monitors placed perfectly for the room and "listening" position. One thing has surprised me with the Ivory. The imaging places the sound from the strings down low. As if the sound is literally coming from strings extending beyond, and in front of my VPC. Imaging wise, it's gives the impression there is an actual Grand piano there.
The sound keeps getting better as I set this place up properly for "listening". Still have to put together some trap panels for reflections. Also have plans for some soffit traps. The plan is that my playing position on the VPC is also my listening position. It is the place I can do mixing from. The VPC and it's top make this good to do. A small desktop so to speak.
This is shaping up to me a much more impressive sound than I had ever thought a software piano would have. I'll experiment some with pianoteq. Everything is sounding much better.
I"m not sure at what point I'll post pictures. Right now it's all shaping up to look really good. Kinda embarrassing. I is just poor folk.

I would love to see this. I am planning on putting my vpc1 under my flat screen when I move. I want to share a sound system and htpc between the two, but have no idea if it'll look good or not!

Ok....maybe this will save me the embarrassment of posting when it's done. This is from the very back of this room.

I will have 2x2 foot soffit traps from floor to ceiling in both front corners. Also one in a corner in the back of the room. Will have three traps to each side and on ceiling around piano to take out early reflections. They are bad right now. Will probably just put the other three panels in the window then close drapes and vertical blinds when I want it real good. (Only at night...plants need light) Waiting on this stuff to arrive now.
Just received the monitor stands. If you notice. I haven't adjusted them for the uneven floor yet. Don't have my good monitors on there either. Only put them up when I want really good. These monitors are probably 90% of the good ones.
I have sixty dollars worth of black fleece I plan to put on tables and the box under the window.
As you see. The computer is still out and not in that box under the window yet. I haven't received the long USB cable yet.

EDIT: If you look at earlier pictures I have in this thread. The piano is now where there was an exercise floor. The floor is in the first bedroom. That room is devoted to that now.

EDIT2: Due to the cheap camera lens. (I is poor folk) Things farther away look smaller. So the TV appears smaller than in reality. It's a 40 incher. Plenty big. Works perfectly above my music stand when playing.

EDIT3: Forgot to say. The soffit traps. They are for bass. This room has wall to wall carpet. That knocks down the highs while not doing much at all for the bass. Trapping the bass reflections does much to even out the sound. Even increases the actual bass. Gets rid of any hint of that boomy box rap like bass sound.

Things usually do look smaller when further away . . but a 40 inch screen looks nice . . .and you can roll around the room on that wheely seat whilst admiring the Doppler effect of the music you just played and recorded . . .

That's a cute one, peter. I'm gaining the room and getting rid of the clutter so I can roll around the room.
We can have even more fun with String Theory.

From looking into acoustic treatment. There is much to consider. Much that doesn't work. Some that works great.
As a result. I have an EMM-6 microphone coming. So I can analyze my room. Make good decisions. Instead of building, trashing, and building again.

One thing I do know. Since I have wall to wall carpet. And I have a typical room for any home. Bass is important to subdue. Everybody has a problem with at least one bass node that resonates because of the size of the room. I was throwing together these burlap bags with insulation. Intend to use them under tables. Move them around to see effects or take care of something. For right now. I have put them in the corners. The effect is impressive, already. Just thought I'd show pictures in case anyone is interested. You can go this cheap and easy for much effect on your sound.






I'll throw in this one for the heck of it. Brian is cool. You can see the bag behind the monitor.



EDIT: Those bags should work better with the top one hanging from the ceiling. Take care of that ceiling corner. I may prop them up temporarily with some 1x2's that I have. Don't want to put up hooks in the ceiling that I will probably pull out when I've built the soffit traps for the corners.

nice use of the bags, before i read the post i thought you may have just been a major caffeine fiend lol ;p.

Are those bags gonna be a permanent fixture? or are you thinking of something else to use once youve got the sound you want?

Ive never thought too much about how much affect the room has on sound, this is very interesting.

The bags just created another problem for me. The problem is that I like them. Doh!
I'll probably keep some of them. Maybe use the material on my soffits? I'll build soffits, since they definitely work better. If I tried to come close with these bags. I would have to put two of them, side by side in each corner. Then at the top ceiling corner also. I'm afraid that might be a bit too much of the bags. Soffits just appear as a pillar in the corner.

As I said. I have an acoustic testing microphone coming. To get a clear view of what I'm doing.

Soffits are simply a square shape that goes up the corner. Most build two of them that are four feet tall each. Stack two of them. It is said to use either fluffy insulation or low density mineral wool panels. The fluffy shouldn't be too fluffy. Use the kind that will sit in a wall and not drop. It will stand up on it's own. Doesn't have a backing to staple to the studs. This is the kind of density of fluffy that will work good. That is the kind of fluffy I have in my bags now.

As I said. Bass is the big problem. Tone down it's bouncing around. Knock out it resonating in the room. You've taken care of most of the problems.
Next step is to take care of the early reflections at the listening position.

Only thing is, when I'm done. The room will look very pretentious. I'm a very unpretentious person. I like the "coffee fiend" look. So I'm looking at keeping the bags in some context.

EDIT: That bass note you usually hear from sound systems. When you can't hear anything else. Just it. That's usually about 40Hz. And the harmonics of it.

I'm realizing. The shape of the top of the VPC. That along with the music rest and how it's made. These took into consideration imaging and sound reflections. Of course when the monitors are placed properly. Which most people don't.
The top. Makes it difficult for reflections to bounce in your face.
This is also why I'm using a small adjustable music rest. When using the VPC music rest. I have to use the small one for a holder for my music light. No big deal. Just can't clip the mighty light on the VPC rest. I got the best of both worlds.
I do admit. I'm considering fabricating a small piece of metal so the VPC rest can have the mighty light clip on it.
I'd like to thank Kawai for this consideration.

Just saw this article, dated September 13, Billy Joel and the Kawai VPC1: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kawai-Pianos/107626515984210

Hello to everyone, My VPC1 is finally with me, and I am very very happy ! I put Kawai directly on the top of my large Monitor Audio speakers instead of stand, and this is the best result from my experience, and i feel like I play real concert grand. This combination is better then speakers in front of me for creating close realistic piano ambiance. Best of luck !

Ron. Stop taking those tablets. . . . its to stop you putting your beer there. And cigarette ends. . .

I can have a whole bar set up on top of my CP4. Thank you, Yamaha!