Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Piano Tuning Pin Bushings => fix for loose pins?

As the title says, I have a piano that simply won't stay tuned. That probably isn't strange since soundboard is 130 years old (made in 1883). My father and I have restored it, but I'm having problems with tuning as pins aren't holding.

I found this on ebay, seems like it could fix things? Or do you have any better ideas?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Piano-Tunin..._DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c14bda2da

I would not use these. They don't work! If you are going to even consider using them ... then why not simply use a set of pins a gauge bigger?

Well, pins are very expensive, and I'm trying to fix the problem for under 100$. Why do you say they don't work? Have you tried them?

Dont' allow your financial situation to cloud your vision of reality. You can't change physics because you don't like the price.

I can say that I have used these items and in my experience they perform poorly. "Don't work" may be a relative term. I can't say that there is never a situation in which a gain in tuning pin tightness is achieved. But they don't work very well or very reliably. The gain in torque is deceptive and you can't count on them to provide an adequate gain in torque to make the note tunable.
In addition, they will ruin the pinblock for later efforts at legitimate repair.

There are better options like epoxy or CA if you want to gamble with cheap. Drilling and plugging or new pins are other options that can actually work.

Don't believe everything you see on the internet.

There is a thread from April 27 this year about "pin-tite" your options are discussed there and elsewhere on this forum.

This is a common scenario. All that work without first checking if the piano is even tuneable. You are certainly not alone.

A piano that age will have a solid wood pinblock and it may be split In which case going oversize will compound your problems.

Neron - If your biggest concern is keeping things as inexpensive as possible, but you want something that works, I would suggest sandpaper shims. Back out the pins one at a time, cut strips of sandpaper (I like 100 or 150 grit) about 3/16" wide. Insert 2 strips into the tuning pin hole across from each other, long enough that you have a 1/2" or so protruding from the hole to make positioning adjustments with. Then pound your pin in to depth, reattach the string, and bring up to pitch - then rip off the exposed tips. This is easier on the old pinblock wood (especially if it's solid wood, as has RXD suggested) than metal shims (which have a really bad reputation with technicians) and is more effective. You should be able to tell immediately if the method will work or not, based on the first few pins you try it on.

As others have mentioned, another relatively inexpensive method is C.A. glue around the pins. It must be a very thin formulation to work well. Also, it's imperative that the piano be laid on its back (if it's an upright you're working on), or the C.A. will run and cause a mess.

The good thing about both these treatments is that they don't affect your ability to repin with a larger pin at a later date if you decide to go that route.

Good luck with your project - I hope you have success at fixing the problem without spending a fortune! Chuck Behm

Indeed, I have tried using these inserts ..... many many years ago .... and only once. The results were truly dire. Metal against metal simply does not bode well when it comes to having a need for a controlled torque. CA glue, PinTite, and cardboard shims ( see Max's various threads) seem alternatives that are used by many, however I can only admit to ever having complete success when replacement over sized wrestpins have been used ... that is assuming that the plank is not split as RxD has correctly pointed out. I generally find that where there are merely a few odd wrestpins grouped together that slip, then there is real concern about the plank having splits, but otherwise I find no difficulty, and have many clients that have had o/s wrestpins fitted and no longer have any problems with tuning stabilty.

I would only add that if the plank (pinblock, wrestplank) is split, the loose pins will form a horizontal line as Johnkie said. Historically, the cure for this was a piece of walnut veneer placed at the side of the hole in the manner Chuck suggested, nothing on the top or bottom of the hole (in an upright) so that the split is not widened.

Walnut because it was the only hardwood that could be cut into a veneer thin enough and flexible enough for this purpose and was readily available.

I have seen sandpaper fixes that hold well and appear to be quite old. One thing tha I think Chuck forgot to add but may go without saying, and that is, use the sandpaper grit side out, i.e. grit next to the wood.

Thank you for your answers, I really like the idea with sandpaper, as I've already tried with epoxy glue and results are not satisfactory and messy.

Irony is, the top part of soundboard is new but holes are a tad too big, and not gripping below middle c. Also, we made a metal plate to reinforce the woot, and pinblock isn't cracked anywhere. I'll try to fix it and tell you the results.

Neron - Don't confuse epoxy glue with C.A. glue. If you use a C.A. with a long applicator tip, it can be applied right around the base of the pin and will wick in almost immediately. When applied correctly, there is no mess. If there are bushings around the pins, they will turn a darker shade and remain so, but other than that, there's little evidence of the treatment - except for the tighter pins.

I use and recommend "Hot Stuff, Original - Red Label" in the 2 oz. bottle. Schaff Piano Supply sells it to technicians, and I would imagine Vanda King would have it available as well to non-technicians. Chuck Behm

Here are a few pics for you to see what i am talking about: http://postimg.org/gallery/5gcvdwi/

Ah, I googled it up and it seems like super glue? But how, if I glue it, can I tune it later. Again apply the glue or? Problem is, there are around 120 pins that aren't holding at all or get loose after a week-two

Neron - So, from your pictures I'm not clear on if the pins and strings are currently in the piano or not.

The application of C.A. is done (at least by me) with the pins and strings in place - and they are not "glued" into place, so to speak. There is a chemical reaction between the C.A. and the wood fibers of the pinblock in which the fibers are raised and stiffened. You'll see this reaction if you squirt a bit of C.A. onto a paper towel. Within a few seconds the spot which has been squirted will be stiff and hot - sometimes a puff of smoke will be seen.

Obviously, the pins have to be turned to tune the piano, so an adhesive that bonded the metal pin to the wood so that it couldn't be turned would not be a fix at all.

Going back to the sandpaper suggestion - this is an easy method to try. If it doesn't work, you're not out anything (except a bit of sandpaper). At that point you might give the C.A. a try - if you can get the proper type that's a fresh batch. Keep it refrigerated until you use it to keep it fresh. Chuck

Here are the pros for CA glue:
Clean
Inexpensive
Doesn't expand a crack if present
Fast. All others involve extensive work on each pin.
Provides good feel for tuning, especially on a pinblock that has already been doped. (Doping is adding glycerin(?) which swells the wood by attracting moisture but may cause mould, and can be very messy.)

Here are the cons:
May not last long. 5 years?
Need to put piano on its back.

It is obvious which is the best solution: CA glue. Unless you want a long term repair which involves new pins/pinblock and about 50 to 100 times the price.

All the other fixes are more time consuming and may be ok for a few pins, but for a whole piano, they just take too much time. Unless you are hard up for cash and need to save the $100-$200 it costs for new larger tuning pins. And what if you make a mistake with the size, or the holes are different sizes, or whatever. Someone already said they didn't have good luck with larger pins. What a waste of time that would be. Without experience or help, I wouldn't risk it.

As you can tell, I love CA glue. I use it all the time, except for rebuilding or reconditioning. It inexpensively and quickly makes a piano tunable and playable. For some people and budgets, it is the only thing that will save a piano from the dump.

Ditto to what Mark said with this addition - if it does begin to loosen up again or if the first application needs to be improved upon, it can be reapplied.

What Mark says about the time factor is a big consideration. I can apply C.A. to every pin in 15 minutes. To repin an entire piano, or shim with sandpaper, I'm looking at 12 hours of hard work, and I've done dozens of these jobs. For someone trying it for the first time, I would imagine several days would be involved.

Oh, and Mark mentioned putting the piano on its back. If the piano is a grand, you of course don't need to worry about that, but I would pull the action, and line the keybed with newspapers, in case any of the liquid should drip through. The last thing you would want is to get C.A. on any action centers. Chuck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBwn2odX-g&feature=share&list=PLDD6668CC75A16250

The eBay listing for the metal bushings are from my eBay store. Even though the bushings don't work in all circumstances, I have had success using them in some situations. I certainly agree that CA glue is a better option in most cases and we also offer the correct viscosity of the CA glue in our store. The place where the metal bushings work best are on pin blocks where you know that cracks in the pin block aren't an issue.

My question is that if it was "restored" why wasn't the pinblock also replaced? Clearly the soundboard isn't the first issue with tuning stability, although an instrument of this age I would have certainly taken some downbearing readings before bothering with any of the rest. With an open plate like this replacing a pinblock might be quite the interesting process. I would love to know who built it, as well as what the bracing structure looks like underneath. Perpendicular soundboard grain to the bridge...fascinating. Reminds me of cutting my teeth on an old Chickering or two.

My thought is don't try to cheat with band-aid fixes in an old instrument. They don't usually get one anywhere. And if the piano is worth doing anything to, then it might be worth actually doing things in a proper way.

Well, since we were new to the pianos when we started it we only replaced the top part of soudboard which was glued onto the rest. There are no cracks as far as i know in pinboard, and I have almost no info about piano, only that is was built by Joseph Baumbach in Vienna in 1883, and supposedly they were the same people that made Ehrbar pianos, and certainly has very similar sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B9usYHvk7c

And not to mention that replacing pinboard would be very hard since it is glued and wood screwed into the sides. We were too scared to remove it.

Could you explaing what "open board" means? Cant find it on google...

Thanks for the plug, Chuck! This is a great way application for Hot Stuff as it saves so much time and money over the alternative methods.

There are a lot of other of ways Hot Stuff is used for piano repair. One of our distributors, Dryburgh Adhesives, has a great page that gives quick explanations on a lot of common repairs with Hot Stuff. With a piano as old as yours, Neron, you may very well have some other issues that Hot Stuff can help you with, especially if you are on a budget.