Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2080925 - 05/11/13 04:36 PM Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th?
Drunk3nFist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 640
Loc: London
This summer I've been given a choice between the two pieces to work on. I love both pieces, and they are both notoriously demanding technically and musically. The Liszt has a lot of scaly runs, along with those relentlessly nasty left hand broken octaves. There are a lot of Beethovenesque tremolo chords on the right hand.
The 4th ballade also contains fast chromatic runs. But on the other hand, the spectrum of technical issues in Chopin's 4th include semiquaver sixths, fast chromatic thirds, counterpoint, and and many cross rhythms.

Both pieces are certainly not easy, but the Liszt 2nd ballade looks a bit more straightforward with mostly octave passages and the technical concepts repeat quite a bit. However, I (and I'm sure the rest of us) love the Chopin 4th so much, and so its certainly a matter of heart vs brain for me.

Your thoughts?
_________________________
Ravel - Une Barque Sur l'Ocean
Kapustin - Etude No. 7
Bach/Busoni - Chaconne

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2080981 - 05/11/13 06:11 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6114
Loc: St. Louis area
I like the Liszt ballade better, so you should play the Liszt!
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2080984 - 05/11/13 06:16 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
I like the Chopin ballade better, so you should play the Chopin!

Top
#2080989 - 05/11/13 06:26 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5020
In the spirit of reconciliation, I vote playing the main part of the Chopin, but substitute its notorious coda for that in the Liszt.

That way, you have the best of both worlds (or both composers).

But hang on, wasn't there a parable in the Good Book about such division? wink

Top
#2080998 - 05/11/13 06:51 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6294
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Drunk3nFist
However, I (and I'm sure the rest of us) love the Chopin 4th so much, and so its certainly a matter of heart vs brain for me.

Your thoughts?


Life is short. If you think you can handle the Chopin, follow your heart. heart ha
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2081016 - 05/11/13 07:27 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: bennevis]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: bennevis
...I vote playing the main part of the Chopin, but substitute its notorious coda for that in the Liszt.

Heresy! You can't destroy the Chopin piece like that!
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2081024 - 05/11/13 07:53 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19271
Loc: New York City
Play the Grieg Ballade or Ballad pour Adelaine if you have a white piano. With almost 10 million YouTube hits, the latter is probably the best of them all.


Edited by pianoloverus (05/11/13 07:56 PM)

Top
#2081076 - 05/11/13 10:27 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
TrueMusic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/12
Posts: 254
Loc: San Diego, California
If you have the ability to play either piece, this thread can only be a thread on opinions of others

Therefore,

Play the Liszt. The Liszt Ballade consistently brings me to tears and is one of the pieces of music most dear to my heart. The only reason I'm not playing it now is because I've decided to hold off for as long as I am able, till I know I can do the piece complete justice. The Chopin is fantastic, but to me it can not even hold a candle to the glory of the Liszt Ballade.

But, like I said, that's just an opinion.

Like others have said though, follow your heart.
_________________________
Piano/Composition major.

Proud owner of a beautiful Yamaha C7.

Polish:
Liszt Petrarch Sonnet 104
Bach WTC book 1 no. 6.
Dello Joio Sonata no. 3

New:
Chopin op. 23
Bach WTC book 2 no. 20

Top
#2081094 - 05/11/13 11:23 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Rotom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 1670
Both are amazing pieces, I've played the Liszt a lot, and it's really a piece that brings tears to your eyes. And the Chopin, also fantastic. I'm to learn that next. I'd start with Liszt, as it's more straightforward. And don't do the big cadenza that finishes loud. It doesn't suit the piece IMO.and there is this wonderful melody near the end.

But that's just my opinion, to do the Liszt. Both pieces are equally great. Have fun!

Top
#2081099 - 05/11/13 11:26 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2139
Loc: Canada
If you're a champ at alternating chords, and brutal alternating octaves in the left hand, the Liszt is a good fit. Also if you're good at tackling pieces which are very grand in scope - it's a very extroverted piece and requires a good understanding of the whole in order to do justice to it.

If you're better at more finger-ish stuff, like double notes, then the Chopin is easier technically. It's trickier, and possibly a bit more risky, because you need to get the details right. Again, you need to understand the big picture in order to play it well, but here, the devil is in the details.

Overall, I'd say that the Liszt Ballade is significantly easier, especially if you have good bravura technique. It's actually not all that technically difficult...just again, a good musical understanding is required to make it sound coherent. The Chopin has its tricky moments, but again, it's not all that technically difficult, but mostly requires musical maturity to pull off a compelling and successful performance.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#2081105 - 05/11/13 11:33 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: TrueMusic]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: TrueMusic
The Chopin is fantastic, but to me it can not even hold a candle to the glory of the Liszt Ballade.

But, like I said, that's just an opinion.

It certainly is an opinion, and it goes to show you how subjective things like this are! grin
I completely agree with you, however.







(Just switch the words Chopin and Liszt. grin)
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2081109 - 05/11/13 11:49 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: TrueMusic]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19720
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: TrueMusic
....The Chopin is fantastic, but to me it can not even hold a candle to the glory of the Liszt Ballade....

Oy grin

Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
....The Chopin has its tricky moments, but again, it's not all that technically difficult....

Double oy. ha

This is simply false -- unless you mean "not counting the hard parts," which are a goodly portion of the piece. (And of course the 'easy' parts are even harder but that's not what we're talking about here.)

And please grin I don't want to hear about how 'the same things aren't hard for everyone.' There isn't anyone for whom this piece isn't technically hard, unless you aren't caring about exactly how well it's played.

Top
#2081112 - 05/12/13 12:09 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
The Chopin has its tricky moments, but again, it's not all that technically difficult [...]


Maybe, if you play it like a chump.

Top
#2081116 - 05/12/13 12:16 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2139
Loc: Canada
@Joel - Sorry, I've played it, recorded it, posted it here, and you're free to bash my recording and my opinion too, but only after you've listened to my performance okay? Don't be rude.

And @Mark - if you mean technique for the sake of serving the music, it is very difficult. However, in terms of hitting notes...there are harder pieces out there. The majority of the work for the 4rd ballade lies after getting the notes down, putting the phrasing together, and constructing the music. The notes are not the issue.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#2081118 - 05/12/13 12:22 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Kuanpiano]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19720
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
....there are harder pieces out there.

I'd say 'Not that many,' but even if so, that's pretty far from how you put it before. It's very, very hard -- just technically, even before we get to musically.

Quote:
The majority of the work for the 4rd ballade lies after getting the notes down....The notes are not the issue.

You're wrong that "the notes" aren't an issue. Sure, perhaps the greater challenge is with 'the music' -- but again, that's very different from the piece being "not that technically hard." "The notes" are very much an issue (ALSO), except for the very very most skilled players -- and even for them, it's still simply false to say that it's "not all that technically difficult."

My reaction when people say stuff like that is exactly what Joel said. I don't recall your recording of it -- pardon if I actually heard it and just don't remember. Are you saying that we wouldn't find anything in it that challenged you very much technically, and that you played it like something that's "not all that technically difficult"?


P.S. I found it, and I'm gonna go listen, but won't say anything about it unless you say "yes" to the above. smile


Edited by Mark_C (05/12/13 12:34 AM)

Top
#2081120 - 05/12/13 12:33 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2139
Loc: Canada
Here's a more concise way of thinking at it.

With a difficult etude, say Chopin's op.10 no.4, I'd have to put a lot of keyboard time into it. Phrasing is not as much of an issue. Clarity, speed, and temperment are the most important aspects and the MECHANICAL issue s most important.

With the 4th ballade, I put more work into the piece away from the piano, studying the score, voicing, phrasing, thinking of shaping, building of musical climaxes, tempo relationships, polyphonic treatment, variation in the first three pages, treatment of voicing in the coda, balancing the textures in the first part of the coda so the harmonic rhythm wasn't chaotic, treatment of "your favourite two bars in the entire piano literature", the climax close to the end, figuring out how to build from the "ocean etude-like" section to those chords, voicing of those soft chords....

The point is, that's all musical difficulty which I spent a lot of time dreaming about while walking around, in class, or with a score in hand. What did I do while practicing? Well I put a lot of work into those thirds in the coda, the sixths in the middle, and the polyphonic treatment of the first theme. Those sections carry the most risk in a performance. However, other things sorted themselves more easily. I didn't have to spend excessive time trying to get things into my hands compared to working on an etude.

Long story short: technically difficult pieces need a lot of time at the keyboard. Ballade 4 took a lot of work away from the piano, because the notes worked out more quickly.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#2081124 - 05/12/13 12:38 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
@Joel - Sorry, I've played it, recorded it, posted it here, and you're free to bash my recording and my opinion too, but only after you've listened to my performance okay? Don't be rude.

And @Mark - if you mean technique for the sake of serving the music, it is very difficult. However, in terms of hitting notes...there are harder pieces out there. The majority of the work for the 4rd ballade lies after getting the notes down, putting the phrasing together, and constructing the music. The notes are not the issue.


Sorry, didn't mean to offend. And if definitely wasn't directed at you personally. I meant that anything his hard to play WELL. Even the simplest pieces out there require a lot of work to make sound fantastic, let alone the 4th ballade. gulp

Top
#2081125 - 05/12/13 12:38 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Kuanpiano]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19720
Loc: New York
Kuan: You're changing it. smile

I have no problem with anything you've been saying, except that the piece isn't that technically difficult, and that "the notes" aren't an issue.

Top
#2081126 - 05/12/13 12:38 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2139
Loc: Canada
Adding to this: the benefit of working on larger pieces (like the two ballades) are that technical mishaps don't break the performance. There is time to ease into the music, and to get warmed up. If you screwed up a section, it's okay, because the whole may survive.

Compared to a shorter etude or something along those lines, if you mess up a section, then you're pretty much toast, since that's most of the piece right there. Sure, if you smudge the coda of the 4th ballade, or mess up the alternating chords in the Liszt, it's not the best, but if you do the same in a smaller piece then that's it.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#2081127 - 05/12/13 12:42 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
DonaldLee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 166
I've played Liszt's 2nd Ballade, and it doesn't seem technically difficult until you start working on it ha, but the Chopin is a devil in difficulty. I would say learn the Liszt now to get used to playing a long emotional piece. It'll help you pull off the Chopin in the future.
_________________________
Currently working on:
Brahms Op. 118
Mozart Sonata K. 576
Bach Prelude and Fugue in b-flat minor (WTC Book I)
Balikerev Islamey



Top
#2081128 - 05/12/13 12:45 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Mark_C]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2139
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Kuan: You're changing it. smile

I have no problem with anything you've been saying, except that the piece isn't that technically difficult, and that "the notes" aren't an issue.

Okay revised: the 4th Ballade is less mechanically challenging than some other pieces in the piano repertoire. However, its musical difficulties are without question some of the most difficult in the entire literature.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#2081146 - 05/12/13 01:38 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Mark_C]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 130
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Kuan: You're changing it. smile

I have no problem with anything you've been saying, except that the piece isn't that technically difficult, and that "the notes" aren't an issue.

I agree totally with Kuan. I can't imagine anybody who's played a lot of Chopin having great difficulty here, even with the supposedly notorious coda. Are chromatic minor thirds really such a big deal? Those scales and all the other patterns fit my hand very well. You don't want to hear that what's difficult for one person is not for another? It's the truth, sorry. And 'There isn't anyone for whom this piece isn't technically hard, unless you aren't caring about exactly how well it's played.' is absurd. Sorry. You treat your own opinions like fact, while you treat others' opinions as, well, opinions.

Top
#2081153 - 05/12/13 02:17 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17951
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Drunk3nFist
[...]Your thoughts?


Decide for yourself.
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2081160 - 05/12/13 02:44 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Goomer Piles]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19720
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
....You don't want to hear that what's difficult for one person is not for another? It's the truth, sorry.

Not in this case. smile

Quote:
And 'There isn't anyone for whom this piece isn't technically hard, unless you aren't caring about exactly how well it's played.' is absurd....

Not in this case. smile

Sort of similarly to what I posted to Kuan, if you want to post a recording of yourself playing the piece and feel it shows that at least for you the piece isn't particularly hard technically, then you would perhaps have some basis for doubting what I said. (Only 'perhaps' because it could mean that your technique is just extraordinary and you don't appreciate how this is for the other 99.9%.) If not, your doubt is only theoretical, and rhetorical; or, if you think otherwise, maybe you can say what basis you do have for thinking the piece isn't that hard technically.

You think what I'm saying is outrageous....but I have to tell you, the thing you're supporting -- that the 4th Ballade isn't that hard technically -- is pretty far out there.

Top
#2081220 - 05/12/13 07:12 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Goomer Piles]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19271
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles
You don't want to hear that what's difficult for one person is not for another? It's the truth, sorry. And 'There isn't anyone for whom this piece isn't technically hard, unless you aren't caring about exactly how well it's played.' is absurd. Sorry. You treat your own opinions like fact, while you treat others' opinions as, well, opinions.
Exactly.

Top
#2081227 - 05/12/13 07:33 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: DonaldLee]
Frankni Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/13
Posts: 150
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: DonaldLee
I've played Liszt's 2nd Ballade, and it doesn't seem technically difficult until you start working on it ha, but the Chopin is a devil in difficulty. I would say learn the Liszt now to get used to playing a long emotional piece. It'll help you pull off the Chopin in the future.


Good advice. The Chopin I consider musically a far superior composition (deeper structure, greater development), and it would deserve the developed technical skills it requires before one seriously tries it. Liszt's 2nd is a much more straightforward piece and technically less demanding it seems to me. Less is lost if one makes a hash of it. So start with the Liszt, and once accomplished then consider the Chopin as a well-deserved reward lateron.


Edited by Frankni (05/12/13 07:33 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha C3, Sauter Delta 185

Top
#2081460 - 05/12/13 04:49 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
For the people that think the Liszt is a "better" piece than the Chopin, or that the Chopin is a "better" piece than the Liszt, what is the reasoning behind this? What aspects of one are better than the other? What does one lack that the other has? I think that both are masterpieces, and both should be appreciated as such.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2081464 - 05/12/13 04:52 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Polyphonist]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8852
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
For the people that think the Liszt is a "better" piece than the Chopin, or that the Chopin is a "better" piece than the Liszt, what is the reasoning behind this? What aspects of one are better than the other? What does one lack that the other has? I think that both are masterpieces, and both should be appreciated as such.

Precisely.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2081495 - 05/12/13 05:52 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2630
Loc: Netherlands
As technical problems seem to be of major interest ( see OP) I would say: neither of these pieces...The musical value is so much more than the the pianistic challenge, look for some other stunning showpieces. As for the musical interest of these pieces I would say: Chopin beats Liszt, not only here, nerely everywhere.
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Couperin pièces, Ravel tombeau de C

Top
#2081509 - 05/12/13 06:18 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Oh, by the way, about the Chopin: to develop the technique required to play it well, I recommend you learn the following etudes (in no particular order), or at least passages from them, since the Ballade contains techniques used in each one of these (contrapuntal texture, left hand passagework, thirds, sixths, octaves, and arpeggios respectively).

Etude, Op 10 No 6
Etude, Op 10 No 12
Etude, Op 25 No 6
Etude, Op 25 No 8
Etude Op 25 No 10
Etude, Op 25 No 12
(It's interesting to note that the Ballade contains a four-bar passage near the end which is extremely similar to this last Etude.)
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2081594 - 05/12/13 09:39 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
xcvbnml Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/13
Posts: 21
Just curious -- what do people find so technically difficult about the 4th ballade? I always hear about it's immense technical difficulties and was intimidated to learn it, but I found that it fits quite well under the hand and didn't think it was particularly difficult to get up to speed at all. Certainly nowhere near the upper level of technical difficulty

Top
#2081610 - 05/12/13 10:17 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
If I were faced with the choice, Chopin would win hands down. That said, for as much as I love the work I would choose something altogether different, since I hear it from everyone (unfortunately). It's one of those works that should be in any serious pianist's rep, but not all those who believe themselves to be the serious sort should have tackled it.
By the way, I agree with Kuan's statements regarding the ballades. Well put, Kuan.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#2081615 - 05/12/13 10:34 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Polyphonist]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Firmly in the camp of the supremacy of the Fourth Ballade, but the Liszt does have value and I enjoy listening to it from time to time.

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

Etude, Op 25 No 12
(It's interesting to note that the Ballade contains a four-bar passage near the end which is extremely similar to this last Etude.)


Yes! It's very striking. Today I noticed another close connection with Op. 25: the RH figuration in the second half of m. 212 is extremely reminiscent of Op. 25, No. 11: a descending chromatic scale in the upper voice with the lower voice alternating between two notes a third apart.

Top
#2081633 - 05/12/13 11:59 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2139
Loc: Canada
Ouch....come on, let's be civil.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#2081639 - 05/13/13 12:36 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Civility restored. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2081652 - 05/13/13 01:07 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: xcvbnml]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19720
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: xcvbnml
Just curious -- what do people find so technically difficult about the 4th ballade? I always hear about it's immense technical difficulties and was intimidated to learn it, but I found that it fits quite well under the hand and didn't think it was particularly difficult to get up to speed at all....

Speaking as someone who thought you played Islamey better than some others were saying, I think it's a good bet that if you shared a recording of the Ballade, it would show much of what's technically hard about it. I would have to guess from how you're expressing this that you didn't take care of the piece as well as you think. Maybe you didn't exactly finish working on it, left it as a 'work in progress' but figured you basically had it? That doesn't necessarily tell you the story.

As to what's so hard about it: Many, many things, some of which are mentioned in the 1st post. The thing that is usually said is "the coda," but that's just part of it -- and even in the coda, some of the very difficult things are besides the most obvious things.


Edited by Mark_C (05/13/13 03:01 AM)
Edit Reason: Shortened (why not....) :-)

Top
#2081676 - 05/13/13 02:44 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: dolce sfogato]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 604
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Chopin beats Liszt, not only here, nerely everywhere.


Oh please. I hear that said so often, and as usual it is said by one who finds much of Liszt's music to be empty. Can't we just say they're both great masters and leave it at that? Chopin was interested in different things musically than Liszt, and their music is so different because of it. Their music has a different way about it, and Chopin's subtlety and structural depth, and more melodic writing are no more valid ways of composing than Liszt's extreme emotions, his symphonic textures, his storytelling/expounding on ideas through thematic transformation. Liszt often put the program first and didn't put any more in his music than what was needed to tell the story -completely different than Chopin's ideal- and in his own way he is a master and a revolutionary.

Are the Chopin Etudes really greater than Liszt's?
The F Minor Fantasie and the PF greater than Liszt's Don Juan and Norma?
Are the Chopin Preludes greater than the Annees and the Harmonies Poetiques?
As for the Ballade comparison...they are so different. True, the Chopin has more depth, but Liszt wasn't striving for that in this piece. He wanted to tell a story and added nothing more than the essentials for that story. In its own way it is a masterpiece and has its own marvellous virtues. But, look at a piece like the Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen variations. Is Chopin's fourth Ballade really the greater work? Or is it just a work from a radically different composer?

And, Chopin beats Liszt 'nearly everywhere,' let's just forget Liszt's varied output and innovation, that Liszt wrote many orchestral pieces (of which the Faust Symphony is as complex, structurally deep, innovative and profound as almost anything Chopin wrote, certainly a match for Chopin's second piano Sonata, just as Liszt's sonata is a match for Chopin's third, in their own ways), and works like Les Preludes, Tasso, and Orpheus that show a far more varied artist, not to mentioned the fact that these works, in their way, match most of Chopin's large scale single movement works. What about the vocal music? Chopin's piano works are scintillating, but could he have dreamed of writing a great, 3 hour Oratorio like one of Liszt's greatest masterpieces, Christus? Or the 13th Psalm? or the Gran Mass? What about the fact that Liszt's lieder are probably superior to that of Chopin? What about Liszt's organ masterpieces like the Ad Nos Fantasia and Fugue? What about the transcriptions, showing awe inspiring pianistic ingenuity that had never been dreamed of beforehand? Chopin didn't do any of this. He has his unique music and Liszt has his.

The Chopin fans around here talk as if Liszt is a child compared to their idol, and I acknowledge that he is one of the greats and indeed one of my favourites, but something has to be said for Liszt's own individual mastery that speaks to some every bit as much as that of Chopin, and it would probably be more if people gave Liszt and his entire output/ideas/innovations as much of a chance, not to mentioned his superior versatility as a composer. You might prefer Chopin's style, that doesn't mean he's greater. The different kinds of achievement in their life are not comparable.


Edited by pianojosh23 (05/13/13 02:51 AM)

Top
#2081693 - 05/13/13 03:29 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: pianojosh23]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Chopin beats Liszt, not only here, nerely everywhere.


Oh please. I hear that said so often, and as usual it is said by one who finds much of Liszt's music to be empty. Can't we just say they're both great masters and leave it at that? Chopin was interested in different things musically than Liszt, and their music is so different because of it. Their music has a different way about it, and Chopin's subtlety and structural depth, and more melodic writing are no more valid ways of composing than Liszt's extreme emotions, his symphonic textures, his storytelling/expounding on ideas through thematic transformation. Liszt often put the program first and didn't put any more in his music than what was needed to tell the story -completely different than Chopin's ideal- and in his own way he is a master and a revolutionary.

Are the Chopin Etudes really greater than Liszt's?
The F Minor Fantasie and the PF greater than Liszt's Don Juan and Norma?
Are the Chopin Preludes greater than the Annees and the Harmonies Poetiques?
As for the Ballade comparison...they are so different. True, the Chopin has more depth, but Liszt wasn't striving for that in this piece. He wanted to tell a story and added nothing more than the essentials for that story. In its own way it is a masterpiece and has its own marvellous virtues. But, look at a piece like the Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen variations. Is Chopin's fourth Ballade really the greater work? Or is it just a work from a radically different composer?

And, Chopin beats Liszt 'nearly everywhere,' let's just forget Liszt's varied output and innovation, that Liszt wrote many orchestral pieces (of which the Faust Symphony is as complex, structurally deep, innovative and profound as almost anything Chopin wrote, certainly a match for Chopin's second piano Sonata, just as Liszt's sonata is a match for Chopin's third, in their own ways), and works like Les Preludes, Tasso, and Orpheus that show a far more varied artist, not to mentioned the fact that these works, in their way, match most of Chopin's large scale single movement works. What about the vocal music? Chopin's piano works are scintillating, but could he have dreamed of writing a great, 3 hour Oratorio like one of Liszt's greatest masterpieces, Christus? Or the 13th Psalm? or the Gran Mass? What about the fact that Liszt's lieder are probably superior to that of Chopin? What about Liszt's organ masterpieces like the Ad Nos Fantasia and Fugue? What about the transcriptions, showing awe inspiring pianistic ingenuity that had never been dreamed of beforehand? Chopin didn't do any of this. He has his unique music and Liszt has his.

The Chopin fans around here talk as if Liszt is a child compared to their idol, and I acknowledge that he is one of the greats and indeed one of my favourites, but something has to be said for Liszt's own individual mastery that speaks to some every bit as much as that of Chopin, and it would probably be more if people gave Liszt and his entire output/ideas/innovations as much of a chance, not to mentioned his superior versatility as a composer. You might prefer Chopin's style, that doesn't mean he's greater. The different kinds of achievement in their life are not comparable.


I think anyone who doubts Liszt's musical abilities are ignorant or worse. Just listen to some of Liszt's more lyrical music such as his consolations and leibestraums. I don't prefer Liszt's style over Chopin, but he was definitely musically capable.

Top
#2081710 - 05/13/13 04:30 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: JoelW]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 604
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
Chopin beats Liszt, not only here, nerely everywhere.


Oh please. I hear that said so often, and as usual it is said by one who finds much of Liszt's music to be empty. Can't we just say they're both great masters and leave it at that? Chopin was interested in different things musically than Liszt, and their music is so different because of it. Their music has a different way about it, and Chopin's subtlety and structural depth, and more melodic writing are no more valid ways of composing than Liszt's extreme emotions, his symphonic textures, his storytelling/expounding on ideas through thematic transformation. Liszt often put the program first and didn't put any more in his music than what was needed to tell the story -completely different than Chopin's ideal- and in his own way he is a master and a revolutionary.

Are the Chopin Etudes really greater than Liszt's?
The F Minor Fantasie and the PF greater than Liszt's Don Juan and Norma?
Are the Chopin Preludes greater than the Annees and the Harmonies Poetiques?
As for the Ballade comparison...they are so different. True, the Chopin has more depth, but Liszt wasn't striving for that in this piece. He wanted to tell a story and added nothing more than the essentials for that story. In its own way it is a masterpiece and has its own marvellous virtues. But, look at a piece like the Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen variations. Is Chopin's fourth Ballade really the greater work? Or is it just a work from a radically different composer?

And, Chopin beats Liszt 'nearly everywhere,' let's just forget Liszt's varied output and innovation, that Liszt wrote many orchestral pieces (of which the Faust Symphony is as complex, structurally deep, innovative and profound as almost anything Chopin wrote, certainly a match for Chopin's second piano Sonata, just as Liszt's sonata is a match for Chopin's third, in their own ways), and works like Les Preludes, Tasso, and Orpheus that show a far more varied artist, not to mentioned the fact that these works, in their way, match most of Chopin's large scale single movement works. What about the vocal music? Chopin's piano works are scintillating, but could he have dreamed of writing a great, 3 hour Oratorio like one of Liszt's greatest masterpieces, Christus? Or the 13th Psalm? or the Gran Mass? What about the fact that Liszt's lieder are probably superior to that of Chopin? What about Liszt's organ masterpieces like the Ad Nos Fantasia and Fugue? What about the transcriptions, showing awe inspiring pianistic ingenuity that had never been dreamed of beforehand? Chopin didn't do any of this. He has his unique music and Liszt has his.

The Chopin fans around here talk as if Liszt is a child compared to their idol, and I acknowledge that he is one of the greats and indeed one of my favourites, but something has to be said for Liszt's own individual mastery that speaks to some every bit as much as that of Chopin, and it would probably be more if people gave Liszt and his entire output/ideas/innovations as much of a chance, not to mentioned his superior versatility as a composer. You might prefer Chopin's style, that doesn't mean he's greater. The different kinds of achievement in their life are not comparable.


I think anyone who doubts Liszt's musical abilities are ignorant or worse. Just listen to some of Liszt's more lyrical music such as his consolations and leibestraums. I don't prefer Liszt's style over Chopin, but he was definitely musically capable.


Yes but on what I've seen dolce is very knowledgeable about much of Liszt's music, much of t just doesn't seem to be to his taste. I overreacted a bit with my post, and I am a bit biased due to my passion for Liszt's music, but I do struggle when told that chopin was flat out better as a composer. It's my problem, getting emotionally involved with something that I know isn't important. Regardless, try asi might, it does get to me.


Edited by pianojosh23 (05/13/13 04:31 AM)

Top
#2081713 - 05/13/13 04:35 AM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: pianojosh23]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Yes but on what I've seen dolce is very knowledgeable about much of Liszt's music, much of it just doesn't seem to be to his taste. I overreacted a bit with my post, and I am a bit biased due to my passion for Liszt's music, but I do struggle when told that chopin was flat out better as a composer. It's my problem, getting emotionally involved with something that I know isn't important. Regardless, try asi might, it does get to me.


We're all emotionally invested in things that aren't worth fighting over. It's human nature. At least you can admit it.


Edited by JoelW (05/13/13 04:01 PM)
Edit Reason: typo that flipped my point upside down

Top
#2081888 - 05/13/13 12:44 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: pianojosh23]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8852
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23

Yes but on what I've seen dolce is very knowledgeable about much of Liszt's music...

Definitely, and the Liszt Sonata is currently in his repertoire, according to his signature.
Quote:
It's my problem, getting emotionally involved with something that I know isn't important.

Only worry when you stop getting emotionally involved. I fully understand your passion for Liszt -which I share- and part of what makes this board fun is the sense of a shared delight at reading other people's musical loves and passions.

I feel very passionately (in addition to Liszt) about Beethoven, Wagner, Elgar, and organ and church music. That is what makes my life so rich, that is what makes it such a joy, and that is what often sustains me in dodgy times.

(I also feel passionately that Rach 3 is not the god-ordained masterpiece that everyone else seems to think, but I'm obviously the odd one out wink ) .
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2081904 - 05/13/13 01:08 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: JoelW]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Yes but on what I've seen dolce is very knowledgeable about much of Liszt's music, much of it just doesn't seem to be to his taste. I overreacted a bit with my post, and I am a bit biased due to my passion for Liszt's music, but I do struggle when told that chopin was flat out better as a composer. It's my problem, getting emotionally involved with something that I know isn't important. Regardless, try asi might, it does get to me.


We're all emotionally invested in things that are worth fighting over.

I think you're only half-right, Joel.

Yes, we're all emotionally invested in things. But no, they're seldom worth fighting over. Which is one of the problems in this forum. Personally, I would choose Chopin over Liszt any day. And there are many who would choose Liszt over Chopin any day. But is it worth fighting over? Hardly. Freddy and Franz are long gone, so whose honor are we defending? If the truth be told, it's usually our own. smile

Top
#2081915 - 05/13/13 01:29 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Shaylee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/13
Posts: 38
I love Chopins 4th Ballade, for me it would be definitly Chopin, maybe Liszt is little easier, but I didnt play his Ballade. Liszt's pieces fit hands very well :-)
_________________________
"If you want to understand the music, you don't even need ears as much as heart"

Top
#2081938 - 05/13/13 02:24 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: argerichfan]
Goomer Piles Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/14/13
Posts: 130
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
I feel very passionately (in addition to Liszt) about Beethoven, Wagner, Elgar, and organ and church music. That is what makes my life so rich, that is what makes it such a joy, and that is what often sustains me in dodgy times.

How grand to have a life that is 'so rich' and 'such a joy'.

Top
#2081980 - 05/13/13 04:00 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Old Man]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Yes but on what I've seen dolce is very knowledgeable about much of Liszt's music, much of it just doesn't seem to be to his taste. I overreacted a bit with my post, and I am a bit biased due to my passion for Liszt's music, but I do struggle when told that chopin was flat out better as a composer. It's my problem, getting emotionally involved with something that I know isn't important. Regardless, try asi might, it does get to me.


We're all emotionally invested in things that are worth fighting over.

I think you're only half-right, Joel.

Yes, we're all emotionally invested in things. But no, they're seldom worth fighting over. Which is one of the problems in this forum. Personally, I would choose Chopin over Liszt any day. And there are many who would choose Liszt over Chopin any day. But is it worth fighting over? Hardly. Freddy and Franz are long gone, so whose honor are we defending? If the truth be told, it's usually our own. smile


Oh wow... I totally meant to type "aren't"!!!

Sorry for wasting your post on a measly typo.

Top
#2082083 - 05/13/13 08:08 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: argerichfan]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6114
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

(I also feel passionately that Rach 3 is not the god-ordained masterpiece that everyone else seems to think, but I'm obviously the odd one out wink ) .


I like it, but I share your preference for the 2nd.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2082122 - 05/13/13 09:13 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Old Man]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7794
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Yes but on what I've seen dolce is very knowledgeable about much of Liszt's music, much of it just doesn't seem to be to his taste. I overreacted a bit with my post, and I am a bit biased due to my passion for Liszt's music, but I do struggle when told that chopin was flat out better as a composer. It's my problem, getting emotionally involved with something that I know isn't important. Regardless, try asi might, it does get to me.


We're all emotionally invested in things that are worth fighting over.

I think you're only half-right, Joel.

Yes, we're all emotionally invested in things. But no, they're seldom worth fighting over. Which is one of the problems in this forum. Personally, I would choose Chopin over Liszt any day. And there are many who would choose Liszt over Chopin any day. But is it worth fighting over? Hardly. Freddy and Franz are long gone, so whose honor are we defending? If the truth be told, it's usually our own. smile


The history of music is rife with emotional factionalism. A famous example of it is the The War of the Romantics .

It's funny, just last night after reading this thread I was thinking about how unbelievable it is to me that in 2013 people can actually still be arguing over the relative merits of Liszt and Chopin. Really? Why compare them at all? I think I know part of the answer to that - in a way, it's the culture in action, arguing with itself over what it values, and somehow, it seems that Chopin and Liszt have come to represent a sort of polarity. I'm not exactly sure how to say what that polarity seems to be about to me - maybe it is between "inward" and "outward", if that makes any sense.

Top
#2082151 - 05/13/13 10:29 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: JoelW]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Yes but on what I've seen dolce is very knowledgeable about much of Liszt's music, much of it just doesn't seem to be to his taste. I overreacted a bit with my post, and I am a bit biased due to my passion for Liszt's music, but I do struggle when told that chopin was flat out better as a composer. It's my problem, getting emotionally involved with something that I know isn't important. Regardless, try asi might, it does get to me.


We're all emotionally invested in things that are worth fighting over.

I think you're only half-right, Joel.

Yes, we're all emotionally invested in things. But no, they're seldom worth fighting over. Which is one of the problems in this forum. Personally, I would choose Chopin over Liszt any day. And there are many who would choose Liszt over Chopin any day. But is it worth fighting over? Hardly. Freddy and Franz are long gone, so whose honor are we defending? If the truth be told, it's usually our own. smile


Oh wow... I totally meant to type "aren't"!!!

Sorry for wasting your post on a measly typo.

ha Joel, I'm not one bit concerned about "wasting a post". (Some might say ALL of my posts are wasted!) But I am glad you clarified your position, because there truly are things worth fighting for, but an internet forum ain't one of them. laugh

Top
#2082478 - 05/14/13 02:06 PM Re: Should I learn Liszt's 2nd ballade before Chopin's 4th? [Re: Goomer Piles]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8852
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Goomer Piles

How grand to have a life that is 'so rich' and 'such a joy'.

I hope that wasn't meant sarcastically. Emoticons can often clarify intent.
_________________________
Jason

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
148 registered (Almaviva, 255, AEMontoya, accordeur, anamnesis, 46 invisible), 1335 Guests and 30 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75984 Members
42 Forums
157144 Topics
2307867 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
1950s Zimmermann
by MaxR
23 minutes 17 seconds ago
Piano with Willie
by Nikalette
Today at 12:58 PM
How to practice a fast piece for amateur competitions
by RonaldSteinway
Today at 11:56 AM
Cromatic lead in Elton John song
by Visalia
Today at 11:56 AM
Chopin experts: this is driving me nuts
by riley80
Today at 09:40 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission