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Well that's some interesting stuff you guys got there
Anyone got a tip on how to divide between Piano and (acoustic) Guitar?


I guess the Piano player plays the bass + chord when Guitar is playing melody/improvising.. and when Piano is improvising, Piano plays Bass + Improv/Melody and Guitar comps the chords?.. Because acoustic guitar can't go low enough for walking bass/bass.

Something like that LW. Here's some inspiration:

That level of empathy is not for the faint of heart. I had the notion once that I was going to accompany myself on guitar ala Jim/Bill to Darn That Dream. I got as far as the sound check and realized that I couldn't pull off all of the intricate editing that would be required. Its really got to be two people with some serious empathy for what the other is playing.

Darn That Dream Sound Check

Jazzwee,

Sorry it took so long to get back to this ...

Jjo's post a few back pretty much explains what's going on in that Herbie video. About being obsessive about b9 and nat. 9. Well, obsessive as a descriptive word implies more focus than the concept should have. I guess that opinion.

There are definite consistencies re: how and where many pianists use either one or the other. Looking at this stuff in a transcription shows that. It's there to see and hear. The controls and constraints and practice that go along with the choice - that's stuff that transfers to other things. I advise it as worth knowing because then you've got a guideline that transfers to other choices.

But does it all pale when HH is in a concert and a listener is hearing the conviction of the overall presentation. OF COURSE it does! But the point of the discussion is guidelines about how and why choices work. That's just info to use or not according to taste, interests, etc.

Lost Woods .. that question of dividing between piano and guitar. If you've got the opportunity to play in that situation, one way is just work it out w/the guitarist. Just by playing. And also by listening to great piano/guitar combinations. There are million! As you do that, you'll find stuff that works for you and stuff that doesn't. Maybe as you work through it you could post your observations?

Hey printer1, I thought you got mad at me or something.

I liked your choice of word for HH: "CONVICTION". Truly that is what makes it work. And HH is so CERTAIN about his moves. When I go outside, I lack that kind of conviction. Comes with knowledge and confidence I suppose.

BTW - just an interesting side story. I was at a LA Philharmonic concert this week and they were playing Bach, Mendelsohn, Mozart. And there was a little lecture beforehand and the PHD guy was talking about the "wonder" of Bach and Mozart leaving the "key". In Mozart's case it was grace notes. In Bach's case it was a true momentary key departure.

The PHD guy continued by saying, "...is this Duke Ellington? Schoenberg? They were ahead of their time...200 years...etc."

Then when I listened to the concert, as much as I listened closely to all this, it clearly was so sparse. 99% of the time all these composers stayed diatonic, excluding grace notes.

It was wonderful music, but boy, do I miss the extra tension from jazz. And I got reminded of the extreme end of HH completely playing out of key the whole time. Now it did remind me of what Bach did. What Bach did was retain the melody note but play harmony in a different key (common tone in both keys).

My perception of HH is that SOME of the notes in the lines belong to the original key so it's not completely disconnected. But it suggests a different harmony. So I suppose the effect is similar to Bach's.

I do like hearing that though more than 1% of the time. HH was maybe too extreme. But somewhere in the middle is good for me. Maybe departures in harmony 20% of the time.

No worries Jazzwee! Clusters of stuff going on! But the music is more interesting!

That "conviction" word: It's a really interesting concept - in the sense of what actually makes music sound good? Well, who knows? Is it clever harmonies, melodies and rhythms? Conviction? ... Bill Evans has a record called "A Simple Matter of Conviction."

That's a really interesting story about the PhD guy and what you got from the lecture. Do you have a book of the Bach Chorales or have you played Bach Inventions?

... anyone interested in what Herbie Hancock says about Wayne Shorter's Nefertiti might want to go here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/122187618/Herbie-Hancock-The-Nefertiti-Interview

No I haven't. But the Bach piece was a Chorale.

BTW that's an amazing find on Nef. We dedicated quite a bit of time on Nef a couple of years back (in the other thread). Everyone analyzed it to death. It would have been nice to have that article as a reference.

Mr. Hancock knows of what he speaks!

Thanks for that interview on Nef.
More HH. This time Pinocchio: http://www.stevekhan.com/pinocchioa.htm

Re: Conviction.
I just read this on The Bullet-proof musician site that makes sense: "Art and fear. Specifically, that if we want to be taken seriously as an artist, we must look at the score with our own eyes and our own ears and take a stand. Rather than copying others’ ideas or waiting for others to endorse or support our ideas, we must make our own conclusions about what we see in the music and bring our ideas to life boldly, courageously, and without question or apology.

That even if we don’t know what is “right” or “wrong”, we simply must make some decision and commit to it until we come up with a better idea. That abstaining from making a decision is not an option. Nor is delaying our inquiry into the bigger questions while we obsess about intonation and hide behind technique."
http://www.bulletproofmusician.com/the-most-valuable-lesson-i-learned-from-isaac-stern/

I know I am late in this thread but, I currently have been working on the basic structure of AL from the Real Book using the chords and simple melody. It sounds ok, but lacking depth. My teacher went over using the e minor scale to do some improvising, but I'm not getting it. Any suggestions, ideas etc appreciated. I wont see the teacher for 10 days.

Thanks...

Mark...

Mark,

Here:
on the major 251, use major scale of the one. In Bb, use Bb major.
On the minor 251, use the harmonic minor throughout. In Gm, use G harmonic minor.

Run the scale up and down over the changes until you got it.
Run the chords up and down 1357 and 3579 up and down until you got it, in blocks of 4 notes.


When you're confortable, running up and down scale and chord, set your metronome to 72bpm and improvise a little. Start with only 8th notes, but short or very short phrases. Maybe 4 notes, with long or very long rests. You want to feel when you can come in comfortably. Stretch it to 2 blocks of 4 notes, and perhaps even 4 blocks.

This particular tune might be worth running in 6 keys or so, ever the next few months. C, F, G, Bb, Eb and Ab

Go back to the up and down scale and chords all the time. You will internalize the changes very well that way. While methods differ on what scale / chord to use, most will tell you to actually run the scales and chords to internalize the changes and get comfortable.

Have fun.

(I haven't posted in a long, long time, but I've been following this thread.)

My teacher and I were just talking about this idea of "parent scales" just a couple weeks ago. He pointed out to me the usefulness of using the harmonic minor as a parent scale for minor-key tunes, just as you use the major scale for major-key tunes.

Melodic-minor harmony is sometimes maybe a bit more interesting, but involves associating a different melodic-minor scale with each and every chord. Harmonic-minor scales as parent scales help avoid that problem somewhat.

I was getting very hung up and frustrated trying to play a tune like "Woody n' You," involving a descending minor ii-V sequence, while sticking to melodic-minor harmony. Once I started using harmonic minor as the parent for the minor ii-Vs, everything became much easier, and I was able to be a good deal more expressive in my improvisation.

In a lesson with andy laverne last year, he referred to harmonic minor as an easy way to get started playing over minor 251s.

Btw Mark, if you're interested in a hangout for 10 mins or so, I can show you what I mean.

Thank God for Bill Evans. I've been looking around for ideas to improv piano in accompanying voice on: When I Fall in Love, Nat King Cole. I ran across an old recording of Bill Evans doing this in jazz. Gave me a ton to think about.
Thank God for Jazz....love it.
That album is so old. It has "Stereo" advertised on the front.

amazing work, dude. Following these threads now.

Just an 'up' for this great thread.

Today being international Jazz day and with the ABF Jazz and Blues themed recital coming up in a couple of months I thought it could be worth bumping this great info-packed thread from the past.

(Btw, moderators, the link in the pinned important ABF topics post to this thread doesn't work.)