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#2080249 - 05/10/13 10:05 AM Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique
Shaylee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/13
Posts: 38
Hi! Did anybody here play this piece?
I need advice about how to practise this. I play this for about two months and can´t get it up to speed. Well, I can, but it´s very uncomfortable for me to play it that fast. My right hand gets very tired. I practise it slowly a lot, any other tips?? Its my first Prokofiev piece :-)

Thank you!!! smile
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"If you want to understand the music, you don't even need ears as much as heart"

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#2080254 - 05/10/13 10:13 AM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
jdhampton924 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
When I was in high school I had a friend who worked on this for about two years, and he still had trouble playing it. It can be difficult. Keep up with the slow practice, but as you do, try to remain relaxed, it will help when you take it at a faster tempo. Also, while the majority of your practice should be slower...don't always practice slow, there have been times in the past that I have practiced it slow for so long I have trouble playing it up to tempo.

I on the other hand can no longer stand to hear it, after being oversaturated with it in high school. It ruined most of Prokofiev for me to this day.

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#2080288 - 05/10/13 11:26 AM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 394
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
My piano teacher suggested this to me, and I let her know that I thought it would be WAY too much work for WAY too little enjoyment on my part. :-)

That said... it is 'impressive'. Good luck with it!

F
_________________________
-------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Bach 848, 866
Schumann Op. 15

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#2080305 - 05/10/13 12:08 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: jdhampton924]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3796
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: jdhampton924
...It ruined most of Prokofiev for me to this day.

That's too bad, especially because I think of the Suggestion as being somewhat atypical, and simple-minded, Prokofiev. When you're ready to give him another shot, perhaps the 5th symphony.

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2080342 - 05/10/13 01:22 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
Shaylee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/13
Posts: 38
Thank you :-)

I try to be patient with this and keep practising... or let it be for a while and then try again.

I think Prokofiev is great composer, I love his 2nd piano concerto! You should give him a chance again :-)
_________________________
"If you want to understand the music, you don't even need ears as much as heart"

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#2080434 - 05/10/13 04:56 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: beet31425]
jdhampton924 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: jdhampton924
...It ruined most of Prokofiev for me to this day.

That's too bad, especially because I think of the Suggestion as being somewhat atypical, and simple-minded, Prokofiev. When you're ready to give him another shot, perhaps the 5th symphony.

-J


I did get to go to a performance of the fourth symphony in C major. I did enjoy it. I know Prokofiev is a genius, and will probably give him another go in a few years, but until that day...

I think the other problem for me...is I was not just exposed to that piece, but as well as the 7th sonata, which I always hear played as fast as possible(there are several recordings of this piece I do like, but at the same time, already heard it done badly many times). So most of the time when I try to give Prokofiev a shot, I am carrying some bad connotations.


Edited by jdhampton924 (05/10/13 04:58 PM)

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#2080438 - 05/10/13 05:02 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
This piece is physically difficult, taxing, and exhausting. Make sure you have a very good rapid-wrist technique. Same with the Toccata, Op. 11. I've played it, and struggled with it. I should give it another go, though.

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#2080450 - 05/10/13 05:38 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: jdhampton924]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3796
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: jdhampton924
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: jdhampton924
...It ruined most of Prokofiev for me to this day.

That's too bad, especially because I think of the Suggestion as being somewhat atypical, and simple-minded, Prokofiev. When you're ready to give him another shot, perhaps the 5th symphony.

-J


I did get to go to a performance of the fourth symphony in C major. I did enjoy it. I know Prokofiev is a genius, and will probably give him another go in a few years, but until that day...

I think the other problem for me...is I was not just exposed to that piece, but as well as the 7th sonata, which I always hear played as fast as possible(there are several recordings of this piece I do like, but at the same time, already heard it done badly many times). So most of the time when I try to give Prokofiev a shot, I am carrying some bad connotations.


I hear you-- I've been in such a state with composers and specific pieces before.

One thing that helps me get past the bad connotations is taking a piece and playing it through myself. There are often treasures lurking in the harmonies that go by too quickly in a recording if we're not already in tune with the composer. I suggest that, when it's time to give Prok. another shot, do so by getting the score of (for example) the 2nd sonata, and reading through the first movement. Let it be just between you and him, without the intervention of another pianist.

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2080575 - 05/11/13 01:37 AM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
JBB_Piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Bay Area, CA
It is a great piece, and lots of fun to play. My favorite Prokofiev. If you keep your wrists loose, it should help greatly with the tiring you are experiencing. That is, do NOT lock your wrist. It should be like bouncing a basketball. It may take awhile for that motion to come naturally, but it's really needed for developing your technique. For whatever it is worth (@woodog), I think the Mozart K 576 is a more difficult piece. I learned it in high school, and my teacher never said it was difficult (nor were there internet forums to read about how difficult it supposedly was), which helped greatly to learn it!

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#2080585 - 05/11/13 02:35 AM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
Shaylee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/13
Posts: 38
Thank you, I will try to relax my wrist more. I think difficulty is really individual, I played more pieces which are considered harder than Suggestion, and performed them quite comfortable. But this is real struggle for me.
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"If you want to understand the music, you don't even need ears as much as heart"

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#2080713 - 05/11/13 09:52 AM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: JBB_Piano]
woodog Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 394
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Originally Posted By: JBB_Piano
For whatever it is worth (@woodog), I think the Mozart K 576 is a more difficult piece. I learned it in high school, and my teacher never said it was difficult (nor were there internet forums to read about how difficult it supposedly was), which helped greatly to learn it!


:-) I'm finding that out! I'm 55 years old, and away from focused study for 20 years, and now back for a year, learning how to play without stress and tension. I chose this piece over Christmas break last year because I like the way it sounded and had never played a Mozart Sonata before. I thought it would be good for me. Heh. It's a real challenge but coming along.

Don't get me wrong, I dig Prokofiev! Well, at this point in life I do, when I was younger not so much. I plan to work my way through Op. 22 and then go after his 3rd sonata. It's one of my bucket list pieces.

My comment above was the response I gave my teacher, who suggested it to me for this past semester. It doesn't appeal to me, and I have the luxury of choosing only those things I like. :-) Turns out I like difficult (for me) stuff, but it's a good place to be in life!!

so it was not meant to be a slam on 'ole Sergei.

do carry on!

Forrest
_________________________
-------------------
current studies:
Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
Bach 848, 866
Schumann Op. 15

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#2081507 - 05/12/13 06:16 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2643
Loc: Netherlands
It's a devilishly difficult piece, no pun intended, so no wonder it 'll take some time. Prokoffiev turned 19th-century virtuosity upside down, so if you are familiar with all the great Chopin/Liszt/Rachmaninov pyrotechnics, you might give it a go, if not, you're in for a struggle.
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couch de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Mussorgski tableaux d'une exposition/Ravel miroirs

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#2081671 - 05/13/13 02:35 AM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: dolce sfogato]
Shaylee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/13
Posts: 38
Thanks! I'm glad, I'm not the only one, who thinks it's so difficult! It gives me more troubles than Chopin or Liszt etudes...
_________________________
"If you want to understand the music, you don't even need ears as much as heart"

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#2081686 - 05/13/13 03:10 AM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
BTW, about the title - I once read that was a very poor translation. I know I am not getting this quite right - but what it really means in Russian is something like a creepy premonition or sudden feeling of apprehension. Somebody who knows Russian may be able to give a better idea, but I think it is something along those lines.

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#2081778 - 05/13/13 09:18 AM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
Roland_Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/11/12
Posts: 40
Loc: South Africa
A friend of mine played this at a concert. As he was about to strike the first note he stopped as he realized he didn't know where to begin, the starting note just eluded him. Eventually it came back to him after staring at the piano for a minute or so.
_________________________
Classical, Jazz Pianist.
From Bach to the Blues.

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#2081881 - 05/13/13 12:23 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
I've heard many performances of this piece -and worked on it back in my late teens, but got bogged down with other projects- yet no one seems to characterize it so mischievously as the composer. Most others treat it as a simple etude.

If nothing else, it proves that Prokofiev could certainly get around the piano with the best of them, though I think he would have loved the young Argerich in his 3rd concerto.
_________________________
Jason

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#2081890 - 05/13/13 12:47 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
Diff'rent strokes, as they say.

I see that some of you like the piece. I didn't know it but went and listened, and I guess it shows what I thought I already knew: I'm not much for Prokofiev.

Despite it being Richter who was playing, I can't recall ever hearing a 2 1/2 minute piece that felt longer. I couldn't wait for it to end, and already around the 1 minute mark, everything and each next thing sounded like it should be leading immediately to an ending, except unfortunately I knew it wasn't because I could see that it still had time to run.

Very impressive, absolutely -- for the pianist. But I have to say, I basically hate the piece. smile

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#2081894 - 05/13/13 12:53 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Mark_C]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Diff'rent strokes, as they say.

I see that some of you like the piece. I didn't know it but went and listened, and I guess it shows what I thought I already knew: I'm not much for Prokofiev.

Despite it being Richter who was playing, I can't recall ever hearing a 2 1/2 minute piece that felt longer. I couldn't wait for it to end, and already around the 1 minute mark, everything and each next thing sounded like it should be leading immediately to an ending, except unfortunately I knew it wasn't because I could see that it still had time to run.

Very impressive, absolutely -- for the pianist. But I have to say, I basically hate the piece. smile

I played it once. Felt this exact same way through the entire process. One of the pieces I absolutely can't stand. It's better to play than to listen to, but even then, I didn't like it.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2081912 - 05/13/13 01:21 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Mark_C]
Shaylee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/13
Posts: 38
I think you will understand this piece after several hearings. I listened to it few years ago and didn't like it, but when my teacher wanted me to play it I listened to it maybe hundred times and love it now smile But don't want to play it anymore, it would be too uncomfortable to perform it in public...
_________________________
"If you want to understand the music, you don't even need ears as much as heart"

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#2081914 - 05/13/13 01:24 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Shaylee
I think you will understand this piece after several hearings. I listened to it few years ago and didn't like it, but when my teacher wanted me to play it I listened to it maybe hundred times and love it now smile....

Most people wouldn't have any desire to give something they hate so many chances or so much time. I sure wouldn't.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't give a lot of chances to something I didn't immediately get, as long as I didn't find it offensive. This piece felt like pretty close to torture. (Hyperbole only slight.) I could not wait for it to end.

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#2081919 - 05/13/13 01:39 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
Shaylee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/10/13
Posts: 38
I understand, I like atmospehere of Prokofievs music, it's so devilish, dark... I love this piece, but don't get some of his music too.
_________________________
"If you want to understand the music, you don't even need ears as much as heart"

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#2081937 - 05/13/13 02:22 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Mark_C]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3796
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Diff'rent strokes, as they say.

I see that some of you like the piece. I didn't know it but went and listened, and I guess it shows what I thought I already knew: I'm not much for Prokofiev.

For whatever it's worth: I also don't like this piece, but I love Prokofiev!

Try the first movement of the 8th sonata. If you don't like that, conclude you're not much for Mr. Prok.

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2082046 - 05/13/13 06:48 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Try the first movement of the 8th sonata. If you don't like that, conclude you're not much for Mr. Prok.

Funny you should mention that. I hate that too. ha

Actually.....I've only heard it 'live' once (and never much listened to it besides that one time), and I sort of liked the sonata -- except that 1st mvt, which seemed to me like a nothing bore.

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#2082050 - 05/13/13 06:58 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Mark_C]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3796
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Try the first movement of the 8th sonata. If you don't like that, conclude you're not much for Mr. Prok.

Funny you should mention that. I hate that too. ha

Actually.....I've only heard it 'live' once (and never much listened to it besides that one time), and I sort of liked the sonata -- except that 1st mvt, which seemed to me like a nothing bore.


My god, it's so not nothing. But it might be like Scriabin 9 in its accessibility barrier.

I don't know if you trust me enough to just grab a score and listen to that movement three times this week. But it could be eye-opening. Like the Scriabin, it's a work of astonishing depth, mystery and occasional terror.

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2082060 - 05/13/13 07:17 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: beet31425]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Try the first movement of the 8th sonata. If you don't like that, conclude you're not much for Mr. Prok.

Funny you should mention that. I hate that too. ha

Actually.....I've only heard it 'live' once (and never much listened to it besides that one time), and I sort of liked the sonata -- except that 1st mvt, which seemed to me like a nothing bore.


My god, it's so not nothing. But it might be like Scriabin 9 in its accessibility barrier.

I don't know if you trust me enough to just grab a score and listen to that movement three times this week. But it could be eye-opening. Like the Scriabin, it's a work of astonishing depth, mystery and occasional terror.

-J

I might consider the Scriabin, since you've mentioned it. But I prefer my music to have more melody than terror. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2082084 - 05/13/13 08:10 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: beet31425]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
Originally Posted By: beet31425

For whatever it's worth: I also don't like this piece, but I love Prokofiev!


It's worth remembering that Prokofiev was a very young composer when he wrote it - the first version was written when he was only seventeen and the revised version we know was made sometime between then and when he was twenty-one. He was reveling in being the aggressive musical rebel who scandalized the old guard at that point. It was also a time in which the whole "machine age" idea was big, and I think you can hear it in the music. The Toccata that followed soon after is also very much into that hard-edged and motoric pounding vibe.

I still like it for its energy and drive and bite, but not as much as when I was seventeen.

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#2082097 - 05/13/13 08:23 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: wr]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3796
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: beet31425

For whatever it's worth: I also don't like this piece, but I love Prokofiev!


It's worth remembering that Prokofiev was a very young composer when he wrote it - the first version was written when he was only seventeen and the revised version we know was made sometime between then and when he was twenty-one. He was reveling in being the aggressive musical rebel who scandalized the old guard at that point. It was also a time in which the whole "machine age" idea was big, and I think you can hear it in the music. The Toccata that followed soon after is also very much into that hard-edged and motoric pounding vibe.

I still like it for its energy and drive and bite, but not as much as when I was seventeen.



Good points, and I keep them in mind when I consider both the Suggestion and the Toccata, neither of which I love.

On the other hand, the first piano concerto, written around the same time, is dear to me.


-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2082103 - 05/13/13 08:34 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Shaylee]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2147
Loc: Canada
Gilels playing Prok 8, live, is the best. Richter sounds like a bore in comparison.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
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#2082107 - 05/13/13 08:42 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: beet31425]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
Originally Posted By: beet31425

Good points, and I keep them in mind when I consider both the Suggestion and the Toccata, neither of which I love.

On the other hand, the first piano concerto, written around the same time, is dear to me.


Ah, yes, the first concerto is wonderful. It certainly has a much more sunny outlook and generally "positive" feeling than either Suggestion and the Toccata.

BTW, I'm not trying to suggest that you or anyone should like those solo pieces. I just wanted to say that, at least for me, keeping a certain kind of perspective on them can make them more interesting than they might be otherwise.

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#2082517 - 05/14/13 03:43 PM Re: Prokofiev - Suggestion Diabolique [Re: Kuanpiano]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Gilels playing Prok 8, live, is the best. Richter sounds like a bore in comparison.
Well I wouldn't go so far to say 'a bore', but Giles does seem to bring something extra that Richter seems to have missed- though I would hardly want to argue the point with Richter!

Apropos the 'Suggestion Diabolique', I confess to amazement at some of the negative responses here. Of course it is an early work, and deliciously 'over-the-top', but what outrageous fun. Chill out, guys. wink
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Jason

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