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#2082480 - 05/14/13 02:09 PM ROAD TO GLORY!!!
King Cole Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/12
Posts: 33
Loc: Louisiana
Now I've refrained from asking questions on here because it's usually attacked, questioned, undermined, belittled, scoffed at and/or worst of all pitied but looking at some recent posts I have some newfound hope.

Now as a young adult I really have no idea how I got so good at trumpet, I had three teachers and we went through a bunch of books when I was young then performances, recitals, played with orchestras and then made 4th chair all-eastern. Most of my progress was just a blur to me I remember just being forced to practice, practice, practice by a strict father and indeed this is probably why most of us who reach a such high level don't do a good job of describing to others the path to playing at a high level. I've heard many people say that the best way to build technique is through effective repertoire. LETS ASSUME THAT'S TRUE... My teacher started me on the Bach 2-part inventions and I've read how they are incredibly useful in building technique.

If you had a student that had the necessary talent *rolls eyes* to one day play Rach's concerto No. 3, what would be the repertoire you would prescribe to get to that point. Obviously it would take years but lets say you started at Bach's inventions. Would you go through all his inventions? What would be next? What would you say are the most useful pieces in building technique from to beginner to advanced?

Please if I have made an error in describing a particular thing don't reduce this topic to a boxing ring for semantics. Just look at the spirit of the question however naive or mis-worded you think it is!!


Edited by King Cole (05/14/13 04:06 PM)
_________________________
"What is genius? To aspire to a lofty aim and to will the means to that aim" -Nietzsche

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#2082498 - 05/14/13 02:55 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
mermilylumpkin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/08/13
Posts: 121
It's a bit hard to prescribe the whole body of work you'd need to work through to achieve perfect technique, isn't it?

If it's really just for "what the heck" purposes, it probably wouldn't hurt to work through the Well Tempered Clavier I and II, Hanon and the early Beethoven sonatas. It probably depends how much time you have on your hands, doesn't it?

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#2082501 - 05/14/13 03:14 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3244
Quote:
Most of my progress was just a blur to me I remember just being forced to practice, practice, practice by a strict father and indeed this is probably why most of us who reach a such high level don't do a good job of describing to others the path to playing at a high level.


Quote:
Also if you haven't reached that level of playing, I don't see how you'd be the best person to offer advice for this question but I know that won't stop many people


In short, you are not going to take any advice, since:
* the people that can reach that level don't do a good job describing what it takes,
* you are not going to take advice from the people that can not reach that level

Quote:
Now I've refrained from asking questions on here because it's usually attacked, questioned, undermined, belittled, scoffed at and/or worst of all pitied but looking at some recent posts I have some newfound hope.


In your question you ask you already undermine everyone that might consider answering.

I think you should lift some restrictions on the answer


Edited by wouter79 (05/14/13 03:15 PM)
_________________________

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#2082503 - 05/14/13 03:17 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 164
Loc: Germany
Yes, both of the good books from Bach (each P&F transposed through the keys) and the complete Liszt technical exercises would be good.

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#2082506 - 05/14/13 03:21 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
TrueMusic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/12
Posts: 254
Loc: San Diego, California
The basics, for me, from the level of Bach Inventions to where I am now has been something like this:

Bach invention no 6 in dm
Clair de Lune
Chopin 34 no 2
Chopin prelude in e major, c minor, Ebminor, and g major
Mozart sonata k283 in G (1st and 3rd movement)
And right about this point took a year and a half off.

Since I have returned to classical piano, i have done this rep:
Bach inventions 13&14
Haydn sonata no 38 in f major mvt 1
Chopin opus 55 no 1
Beethoven opus 10 no 3 mvt 2, learned 1 later
Chopin opus 25 no 2
Bach WTC I no 6 in dm
Beethoven 27 no. 1 in eb
Chopin 10 no 4 & 25 no 1
Rachmaninoff opus 32 no 10 in Bm
And I am currently doing continued work on the last 6 pieces of the list over summer to learn them in more detail and confidence. I'm also adding Liszt's Petrarch Sonnet 104 to my rep. I plan to do the rest of the sonnets and Liszt's jeux d'eau within the next year, along with more Rachmaninoff, Bach, and chopin etudes.

Also, during all of the above work, constant practice of scales and arpeggios was crucial. Don't forget those.


I imagine, to continue this path, if my goal was Rach 3 I would pick up another, larger scale Beethoven sonata and play more bach WTC. I would also begin more rachmaninoff preludes and etudes, so I can learn the ways rachmaninoff develops his ideas and the piano textures he uses. I would also like to play a concerto or two at lest before going to the Rach, so let's say I play the Grieg and beethoven no 3. I would also want to have something large and virtuosic in my rep, so let's say I learn the Liszt Ballade no 2 and Chopin ballade no 1.

And then....if I mastered all of that....who know of I'd really be ready. There could still be some lacking in my knowledge of theory or in my scales or arpeggios or my rhythmic sense. All those have to be pretty flawless to convincingly play Rach 3.

Don't ask why i gave such a detailed response. I guess I find discussions on "path" somewhat fun. And I'm bored on a summer day...not practicing piano for some reason.
_________________________
Piano/Composition major.

Proud owner of a beautiful Yamaha C7.

Polish:
Liszt Petrarch Sonnet 104
Bach WTC book 1 no. 6.
Dello Joio Sonata no. 3

New:
Chopin op. 23
Bach WTC book 2 no. 20

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#2082507 - 05/14/13 03:34 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4152
WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU!!!
_________________________
To each his own.

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#2082520 - 05/14/13 03:45 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: King Cole
Now I've refrained from asking questions on here because it's usually attacked, questioned, undermined, belittled, scoffed at and/or worst of all pitied but looking at some recent posts I have some newfound hope.


I find this a most off-putting way of starting a thread; you already, some hope notwithstanding, may have alienated some otherwise willing posters on this thread.

Originally Posted By: King Cole
[...]If you had a student that had the necessary talent *rolls eyes* to one day play Rach's concerto No. 3, what would be the repertoire you would prescribe to get to that point. [...]


How would a teacher know, unless a student is already well-advanced both technically and musically, whether that student is "one day [capable of] play[ing] Rach's concerto No. 3"?

The answer to your question lies in determining reasonable mile-posts along the student's way. Since
Originally Posted By: King Cole
[I] haven't reached that level of playing, I don't see how [I]d be the best person to offer advice for this question but I know that won't stop many people
I guess that has to stop me.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#2082521 - 05/14/13 03:46 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
Polyphonist Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 6382
Loc: New York City
Bruce: see PM. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2082544 - 05/14/13 04:28 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
King Cole Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/12
Posts: 33
Loc: Louisiana
I can't win but thanks TrueMusic
_________________________
"What is genius? To aspire to a lofty aim and to will the means to that aim" -Nietzsche

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#2082549 - 05/14/13 04:39 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 706
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
To quote the professor from Shine:

"Your hands must form the unbreakable habit... of playing the notes so that you can forget all about them."
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2083199 - 05/15/13 04:26 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
hujidong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 64
Loc: Hawaii
Every piece has it's own technical challenges/intervals/hand shapes to contribute, learn whatever you want smile

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#2083309 - 05/15/13 08:50 PM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
Quaver Pyjama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 114
Originally Posted By: King Cole
Now I've refrained from asking questions on here because it's usually attacked, questioned, undermined, belittled, scoffed at and/or worst of all pitied but looking at some recent posts I have some newfound hope.

Now as a young adult I really have no idea how I got so good at trumpet, I had three teachers and we went through a bunch of books when I was young then performances, recitals, played with orchestras and then made 4th chair all-eastern. Most of my progress was just a blur to me I remember just being forced to practice, practice, practice by a strict father and indeed this is probably why most of us who reach a such high level don't do a good job of describing to others the path to playing at a high level. I've heard many people say that the best way to build technique is through effective repertoire. LETS ASSUME THAT'S TRUE... My teacher started me on the Bach 2-part inventions and I've read how they are incredibly useful in building technique.

If you had a student that had the necessary talent *rolls eyes* to one day play Rach's concerto No. 3, what would be the repertoire you would prescribe to get to that point. Obviously it would take years but lets say you started at Bach's inventions. Would you go through all his inventions? What would be next? What would you say are the most useful pieces in building technique from to beginner to advanced?

Please if I have made an error in describing a particular thing don't reduce this topic to a boxing ring for semantics. Just look at the spirit of the question however naive or mis-worded you think it is!!

Six Inventions
Four Sinfonias
Six Moszkowski etudes
Eight preludes & fugues from WTC
Three Mozart Sonatas
One early and two middle Beethoven sonatas
Two Chopin Nocturnes and one scherzo
Six Chopin Etudes
Six Rachmaninov Etudes

The list isn't perfect but if you complete it properly you should be able to successfully prepare the concerto.
The main dificulty will be to play the Mozart Sonata and the Nocturnes with necessary expression. If you play them beautifully, and if the Bach fugues are studied and played with proper care in relation to the value of each individual voices, and also presuming you have the rest of the list completely mastered, you are capable of beginning such a great adventure as the Rach 3...

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#2085003 - 05/19/13 12:50 AM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
King Cole Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/12
Posts: 33
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Quaver Pyjama

Six Inventions
Four Sinfonias
Six Moszkowski etudes
Eight preludes & fugues from WTC
Three Mozart Sonatas
One early and two middle Beethoven sonatas
Two Chopin Nocturnes and one scherzo
Six Chopin Etudes
Six Rachmaninov Etudes

The list isn't perfect but if you complete it properly you should be able to successfully prepare the concerto.
The main dificulty will be to play the Mozart Sonata and the Nocturnes with necessary expression. If you play them beautifully, and if the Bach fugues are studied and played with proper care in relation to the value of each individual voices, and also presuming you have the rest of the list completely mastered, you are capable of beginning such a great adventure as the Rach 3...


Wow thank you for a real and decent way to answer my question. It definitely helps me set goals in my head. Very interesting selections.
_________________________
"What is genius? To aspire to a lofty aim and to will the means to that aim" -Nietzsche

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#2085568 - 05/20/13 04:48 AM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3244
LOL
_________________________

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#2086623 - 05/22/13 07:47 AM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2594
Loc: Netherlands
Some, nay, most pianists don't even reach that R.3-level, how hard they work, that dear King Cole is a matter of devotion/talent/disposition and a lot more. There is no recipe, and: the way to heck is paved with good intentions (and pianists).
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Chopin op.28/20/31/39/54

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#2086681 - 05/22/13 09:41 AM Re: ROAD TO GLORY!!! [Re: King Cole]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11179
Loc: Canada
Pieces teach technique?

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