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Hello

I cannot really find where I should ask a technical question. Maybe a better place was the beginner forum, but I'm not sure (?)

Anyway, I hope I'm allowed to ask these questions here and that someone could help me off course.

I'm playing for 5+ years now and kind of like Mozart. But I feel like I have reached a plateau. It could be described as focusing on the wrong things, like speed and 'sound', while ignoring the basics like control, articulation, etc ...
An example of myself playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri0F8LM_mJ8
Playing like this gives me a false feeling of "good playing".

I don't want to compare myself with very good pianists, even little ones like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2sdOwMkdf8 :-)
But I hope you get the point. With a lot of practice, I "can" play "fast", but I'm not happy with the control and how it presents to a listener. The video of Yuja Wang shows control, and lots of it!

So, I'm convinced I should just take some steps back again. Picked up my scales again, which I ignored way to much and too long.

Now my question. It's about my hand positioning. It does not feel too comfortable, and it looks quite wrong, they don't feel smooth. I can't really pinpoint it, but I really hope somebody could give me a few hints about the position of my wrist, finger curls, ... Maybe my chair is too high? Haha, but really, I don't know. Here a video I made playing my basic scales now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxBeaoYDEEM

My work does not permit me to follow any lessons for the time being. I feel quite isolated actually. Pretty sad ...

Greets

Hmm, ask away I think. You should ask your question in whatever forum you like I think :-)

I recently have been taking lessons in Alexander Technique, and the following doesn't purport to be Alexander Technique advice or anything, but things that I try to reflect on myself so maybe it could be helpful to someone else.

You don't look like you're doing anything wrong to me (though, given the nature of the internet, I am sure there's lots of people around who would be happy to find something "wrong" to point out.) No reason you can't develop "control," etc. at the same time you're developing speed and sound.

Anyway, how does it feel experientially? Do you feel like you are using gravity and the weight of your arms to move the keys? Do your shoulders feel free and loose? When you play forte do you feel like you're drawing the power from your natural weight or from muscle tension? I just try to be mindful of my muscle usage as I play. In a book I read (I read a lot of piano books, and I think I've babbled about this particular one before on the forums - Art of Piano Playing by Neuhaus), he recommends to students just to practice letting your arm fall on the piano like a corpse arm to learn the kinesthetic feeling of dead weight and gravity. Piano playing obviously isn't about dropping your corpse arms on the piano in succession but I do find it helpful to try to get in touch with gravity and natural weight as a power source.

Anyway, I hope that wasn't too much rambling. I don't like to prescribe people to do such and such with their wrists, etc., because I've never found overly prescriptive recommendations very helpful myself.

The main problems with self taught pianists (and I'm assuming you are) is the lack of appreciation for good fingerings. That might sound silly, but proper understanding of the use of the fingers provides a quantum leap in the ability to play more complicated music. Chopin is the best example of this. No one understood fingering better than Chopin. My suggestion is find a teacher that knows how the teach advanced students. The other is start looking at some of the easier Chopin preludes and follow HIS fingerings. The etudes are still a ways off. Slow practice is the other essential ingredient for progress.

My opinion is that your right wrist is too low. For the playing of scale passages, it should not drop below the level of the keys. I think that most would advocate that you should maintain more or less a straight line from your forearm through the wrist to the back of the hand, without a downward dip at the wrist. Look at your hand position at the end of each phrase at 0.08 and at 0.15. If you can use and maintain that hand position while playing, I think you would eventually achieve a more even, cleaner articulation with greater ease. If, however, you are used to this hand position, it may take some adjusting to make a permanent and comfortable change.

... my opinion, only!

Regards,

My chops are far worse than yours, so take the following with a huge grain of salt.

My impression on viewing was the same as BruceD's. Left hand looks good, but wrist on right hand looks low.

The 20 seconds or so I listened to of your first link--well, it's fluid but it seems really rushed. Your playing sounds really nervous and anxious. I'm probably projecting.

But even just a single played note on the piano has a really nice timbre. Perhaps if you concentrate on making each note really sing on those runs, starting by working on a really resonant and portato/legato tone at a slower speed and then slowly "releasing constraints" instead of consciously trying to "speed up", you might notice a difference.

I agree with Ralph

Primarily playing scales with a few leaps does not require much skills.

Reading fingering along with the notes will advance a player better. I write my own fingering in if there isn't any because I think good fingering helps with the flow.

My shoulders are quite tense and there is too much weight on my fingers I think.
After playing for an hour or so, I can feel tension in my right wrist indeed.
It sounds funny because you could reply and say "just don't do these things then" hehe



Had 4 years of school. Now 1.5 without. I should be able to take 'official' lessons again in 2014 But maybe I can look for a private teacher in the meantime (but so costly )

Thanks, I will have a look at the preludes!

I should like very much to see a video of you playing something that you feel doesn't work, in conjunction with a passage you feel is done well. That would be more telling than a couple scales. But I can work a little with what you've provided.

Bruce is right about your wrist: it's definitely low. That could be causing quite a bit of the discomfort you feel, but probably not all of it.

I saw some things in the LH during the scales that I couldn't really see in the RH with the angle, but I assume they are there. During crossings, especially, there was a very slight twisting movement. It was very hard to pick up on the first watch.. I had to look 2-3 times, but eventually, I did see it.

Also, your hand patterns are exactly the same for the scales. They shouldn't be. Your hands should be shaping differently: in scales, sometimes together, sometimes opposite. This is primarily because your thumbs are on opposite sides, and the hands are crossing over notes at different times. But your hands shaped in exactly the same way. It would be too difficult to try to describe in words what should happen, but basically, there are two types of shapes: over and under. I didn't really see an "under" shape .. everything was basically an "over" shape.

While you are somewhat fluid, and clearly have skill, I think you are being trapped by some very slight incorrect movements -- slight enough that it would be difficult to describe in words what you need to do to correct them. If we could sit down at a piano together, I could easily show you what I mean; but I haven't really figured out a way to type out a description of exactly what needs to happen without causing even more confusion.

Can you post a video of you playing something for us? A couple minutes is sufficient, so long as what you select has both passages you feel work well, and passages you feel do not work well (or feel "wrong" even if they sound okay).

Watching the scales, I noticed the low wrists, too. Unfortunately, it can't be seen well on the picture, but this often comes with the ellbows 'sticking out' to the side. I'm not sure, but it almost looks, as if this is the case here. So, if you want to play with your wrists on the same level as your hand and your lower arm, first you need to relax your upper arms and get a feeling of letting hang down your ellbows.
I hope this makes sense.

Your hand shape looks pretty good to me, but you would be more comfortable with playing, if you would keep your fingertips closer to the keys. Actually, they should touch the key before pressing it down. If the fingers are 'floating in the air' above the keyboard while playing, this is in most cases a sign of tension.

Here's a very simple exercise: let your arm hang down beside you and relax it down to the fingertips. Now, your hand takes a half-closed, half-open form which is the most relaxed shape of our hand and the perfect shape for piano playing. The wrist isn't bent in any direction and all the finger joints are a little bent. If you now raise your hand to the keyboard and just let it relax with all your fingertips touching the keys, you have a good position for playing.
Hopefully this makes sense...

PS: I just realized that this is the way I'm holding my computer mouse.

I know you said it with a "ha-ha," but maybe your chair really is too high (could make you lower the wrist to compensate?).

If you haven't seen it, you might want to look at the guide at http://www.wellbalancedpianist.com. It's got helpful pictures and discussion of healthy positioning.

Sitting too high would make it more awkward to play with low wrists but would not make one lower their writs to compensate.

It creates the same angle in the wrist, but because the arm is elevated, it doesn't usually "appear" as a low wrist.

Could be that the OP got used to playing up high, then sat relatively even, and kept the same wrist angle. But that's pure speculation, and may not be all that helpful. (Yes, I am knocking myself in my own post. )

Without seeing your full body, it's hard to tell, but my overall impression is that your hands are suspended in the air by very tense shoulders. You say you think there is too much weight on your fingers yet it looks like the opposite is true. Perhaps you are pushing weight onto your fingers rather than hanging your fingers from your shoulders.

I've found the solution to most problems to be slow, focused, aware practice. Pay attention to your various body parts and notice where you are relaxed and where you are tense. Try not to concentrate on pushing the notes down. Instead, pay attention to releasing the notes. Glenn Gould used to talk about pulling the notes down instead of pushing them down. Never reach for notes but move into them so your weight is behind every note.

I'd seriously think about finding a good teacher before your technique becomes an ingrained habit. It takes longer to unlearn something wrong than it does to learn it right in the first place. You seem to have quite a bit of talent and passion so I suggest you invest in a very good teacher. If a good one is too costly, considering taking lessons less frequently.

Imagine you are holding a handball in your palm as you play.

Hi Sideshow,

Honestly, I think you're pretty good Your Mozart sounds pretty nice and relatively in control. It's possible that you might have some basic technical issues with the way you approach the piano, and it's possible that some of what others have said may address them, but I'm not convinced of this fact by what little we can see in your Mozart video.

What I CAN tell relates to your sound and your articulation. While being pretty nice, as I said, I find your general articulation (especially in your scales) in the Mozart a bit "mushy", by which I mean that the attack of each finger is not clear. When playing in any style, there is always a balance between the articulation of the individual notes and the degree of connection and flow from note to note forming the phrase. Determining the right balance of these two factors is a mix of personal preference combined with performance traditions. I'll submit some examples so you can understand what I'm talking about. [At first I was trying to find multiple examples of pianists playing the same Mozart sonata in different ways, but I had a hard time finding weird/bad/extreme interpretations. So I'm using Beethoven as an example instead]:

Glenn Gould was recognized for his extremely clear, pointillistic articulation, which served him very well in some repertoire such as Bach, but is much less stylistically appropriate in Beethoven (according to prevailing opinion). He is my extreme example of articulation of individual notes at the expense of the phrase. Here he is playing the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata:




Going back a little farther, here is Ignace Paderewski, a dynamo of a pianist who swept the early 20th century by storm, but may have coasted a a little too much on his name later in his career. I don't know when this recording comes from, but given its quality, it's probably from later in the 20th century. In his interpretation of the same piece, you can hear how much less he is articulating individual notes than Gould, with emphasis much more on the overall musical flow and affect of the phrases, perhaps even at the "expense" of the specific notes:





Then finally, for a more standard interpretation, let's take someone like Murray Perahia. I think he generally plays within the culturally accepted "safe zones" of interpretation, rarely making people think his versions are stylistically inaccurate (and he's really good too - that's not meant as a backhanded compliment). I think his conception of the 3rd movement of the Moonlight has a great balance between articulation of individual notes and sweep of phrase:





So, back to how this relates to you Sideshow - I think you should practice your Mozart with a very exaggerated pointillistic approach, similar to the way Gould plays Mozart:


Note that I'm not saying that this is the "appropriate" way to perform Mozart. However, I think this approach will help you very much in the unevenness of your scales. In your current playing, not only are you not emphasizing the strike of each note quite enough, but there is some actual unevenness between your fingers, and by practicing in this detached, pointillistic style, you will become much better at listening to what you are doing on a note-by-note basis, and you will develop your articulation abilities in the "weaker" fingers.

As you become able to play in this exaggerated fashion (perhaps dedicating 30% of your practice time to this), you should play in a "normal" sounding way sometimes as well, but incorporate just a little of this extra articulation into your normal playing. I would expect that after several months of this approach, your articulation will improve a lot.

And it seems like you're already doing this, but be sure that you are listening to great performers playing Mozart (not just when they were children ).

Good luck!

I agree with Ralph about the "nervous" quality. When I discover this in my own playing (which is a lot), it's usually because I'm not paying enough attention to the pulse: primary, secondary, and tertiary in each measure. This requires slow practice. As others have said, slow practice is crucial.

As a part-time church organist, I have to play new music each week and there is never enough practice time. Slow practice is the key: mental focus, consistent fingerings, pulse, and of course correct notes & rhythms. Often, 90% or 95% of practice is under tempo.

Hope this helps.

Hello

Could you please explain the hand pattern issue. I'm not sure what you mean.
Also, recording something good and something bad is a difficult task - I can play all the notes and sometime it's even like music a bit but the problem is general, not enough control, getting tired hands, having stress and tense shoulders.


Actually, it's not really sticking out, When I try to hold it really close to me, I have even more strees in my wrist. Roughly the space between my body and elbow on the right while doing a scale is generally not more than 15cm. would thath be too much?


That is a good tip, which reminds me of the fact I'm playing too much notes, while I should be playing groups of notes (a handful of notes).


I've looked at that page and realized I'm sitting to far and too low I corrected my chair - now my lower arms are completely straight with the floor. Thanks for reminding


Huh ! That reminds me. I sat really high the first year (or 2) I played.


I try to maintain absolute relaxed shoulders now. Just a problem - I can't really remember where the weight, heavy notes, forte, ... has to come from? Where does the power come from if it's not from the shoulders? Should the ff notes come from the elbows and the forte notes from the wrist?
I'm considering a private teacher, again. The real problem is someone who can really help someone and takes the time. Hard to find :-)


This is useful!



It does help!

Thanks for taking me on a wonderful trip! :-) I understand the importance of the "up movement" of the fingers and how it could be trained/, but the exact expression "pulling the notes down" is still a mystery to me :-)

Oh no. I guess I wasn't clear. The power does come from your back and your shoulders, not your hands, arms and wrists but you mustn't do it through tension. Forcing the notes down with your arm/wrist/fingers will give you limited power and a harsh sound. It's more of an arm weight thing. My teacher demonstrated it this way: Hold your arm up around shoulder level but keep the entire arm completely loose. Now let go and allow the weight of your arm flop down so your hand strikes a bunch of keys. See how loud that is? Now, keeping that idea of arm relaxation in mind, play the notes, but push your body away from the keyboard as you do so. This should allow you to make the sound from your back and shoulders. It will be very loud and hopefully will make a nice sound.

Hey,

I guess some other people gave you advice on this but I just wanted chime in with something that had helped me recently. My Alexander Technique teacher was talking about the noise his infant daughter manages to make when she is banging on the piano. She is not using any muscle at all or very much mass obviously (she's five months he said), but she makes a big ff(f) sound by virtue of the ease of the movement. After he told me that, I practiced dropping my hands on the piano in various ways. Like I'll put my wrists a few inches up in the air and just let everything fall with as little muscle use as possible. Or practice steading my wrist but using the weight of my arms all the way through my fingers.

It is a useful exercise insofar as it familiarizes my body with the kinesthetic sensation of maximum sound for minimum effort. I am still learning how to rework my technique around these concepts and a lot of fine tuning is obviously required to apply it in a practical way. But I find the just getting the gist of the movement can be helpful too.