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#2083485 - 05/16/13 03:12 AM Any tips for this score?
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
I just finished this score. I'm sure I will make some edits as time goes on but for now I'd appreciate any advice. Comments, criticisms, tips?

Thanks.

(deleted and revised)

(revised version) Thanks Nikolas!

PS: I'm aware of the giant empty space at the bottom. MuseScore just won't let me fix it for some reason. I've tried adjusting the measure width so that it evens out, and it does even out until I reopen the score to find that it has gone back to its original spacing. Oh well.

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#2083493 - 05/16/13 03:38 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
Here we go...

1. You NEED to show every beat (or at least the 1st and 3rd beat, if the music is simple enough) in EVERY bar. Your very first bar defies this rule (which is actually VERY important) and this makes counting VERY difficult, for a single bar.

Make your C (2nd beat) into a quarter, tied with an 8th and DISconnect the beam after the 32nd C (leaving the 4 last notes on their own beat).

Do the same for every other bar this is an issue.

2. A tie from a half note, over a 16th rest to the next 16th note doesn't make much sense. If it was a string score, or a wind score it would actually make sense (keep the same bow/breathing), but not for the piano. Since you have a rest you can't do a legato anymore. Period!(this applies to bars 2,3,4, etc)

3. bars 13 and 14 need the layers cleaned up in the upper staff: You need to make the first beam go up, rather than down, so as to separate it from the half note bellow.

4. bar 38 as it shows has 6 beats instead of 4. Put the rests back in (underneath the half notes) and turn the quarter not stems downwards rather than up.

5. Last bar needs a fermata in both staves, not just the higher one!

6. Bar 33 needs the clef change AFTER that low F. It's a pity to have 3 ledger lines when you're already in the bass clef I think!

7. The terms "playful" and "Calm and expressive" are tempo markings? If so, make them in the same manner like "Lively" (in the beginning, with bold lettering and a larger font). If they are expression markings they should be in the middle of the two staves and probably in Italics.

8. Do you actually play the whole work with only 1 bar with the sustain pedal? when you put pedal information the pianist will assume that it applies for the whole work, so no pedal signs means no pedal (if there's at least one pedal in). If you want more pedalling either notate it, or take out that one, and allow the pianists do what they do best: Mess up the pedalling! grin

9. I get a constant feeling that I'd like more legato slurs... Take for example bar 5. This is textbook example of slurs in every beam... why did you leave it out?

One suggestion I'd have would be to take the two staves more apart, leaving more space between them two. This way, you'd have more space to place the dynamics correctly, plus probably one or two systems would have to be moved to another page, thus filling in the third page!

I hope this doesn't across as harsh. I'm just in a hurry and can't word it in a better way I'm afraid. I know you know I mean well, so all is well! ^_^
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#2083504 - 05/16/13 04:23 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Nikolas]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Nikolas, thanks for this reply.

Quote:
DISconnect the beam after the 32nd C (leaving the 4 last notes on their own beat).


I can't seem do that on MuseScore without changing the value of 32nd C to a 64th. That is to say, I don't know how to split the beam. I'm pretty familiar with how MuseScore works. I'm not sure it's possible. I hope I'm wrong though. Can anyone help with this?
Quote:

A tie from a half note, over a 16th rest to the next 16th note doesn't make much sense. If it was a string score, or a wind score it would actually make sense (keep the same bow/breathing), but not for the piano. Since you have a rest you can't do a legato anymore. Period!(this applies to bars 2,3,4, etc)


Ahh, I see. I need to be replacing the rests with 16ths and tie them. I never would have realized this. Thanks!

Quote:
bars 13 and 14 need the layers cleaned up in the upper staff: You need to make the first beam go up, rather than down, so as to separate it from the half note bellow.


I'm confused.

Quote:
bar 38 as it shows has 6 beats instead of 4. Put the rests back in (underneath the half notes) and turn the quarter not stems downwards rather than up.


But I need the left hand to hold out until the next bar, and if I put a rest under the second half note in the treble then I won't be able to put a tie. (?)

Quote:

I get a constant feeling that I'd like more legato slurs... Take for example bar 5. This is textbook example of slurs in every beam... why did you leave it out?


The thing is, when I think "slur" I'm thinking about the strict, textbook definition. Holding down a note for the given distance of the slur. I feel like I'm doing that as much as I can. When YOU place slurs, how are you deciding where to place them?

--

I'm also confused as to when to have the stems facing up or down.

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#2083506 - 05/16/13 04:34 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
bars 13 and 14 have something that looks like a half note, but the beam is confusing everything. You need to set apart the two voices in the same staff: If you turn the stem of the half note downward and the beam upward, it should be very clear.

You seem to be confused with using more than 1 voices in the same staff: When you have more than one voices in the same staff (look at Bach fugues, for example) you are forced to find a way to separate the different voices somehow. This is done by using what is generally called "layers". You make the voices look different by making the one voice stems and beams ALWAYS look down and the other ALWAYS look up. in the case of bar 38 if you look at it as you've got it notated it's 6 beats, not four. what you mean is that you play the first note, and keeping it down, then you play the second note. You lift both and repeat the process once more and are done. but you need to show that the quarter note is played on the 2nd beat and not the 3rd (as it is shown right now).

Finally, the definition of the legato slur is NOT to hold the note for the duration of the slur! The definition of the slur is to play them 'legato'. In the case of strings with a single bow, in the case of the flutes a single blow, in the case of the piano, you keep the note pressed until the next one comes (not until the slur is done)...

hope this helps...
_________________________
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#2083513 - 05/16/13 05:04 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Now I understand. Thank you!!

Quick question -- slurs CAN be used to directly sustain a single note, right?

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#2083514 - 05/16/13 05:09 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quick question -- slurs CAN be used to directly sustain a single note, right?
now it's my turn to not understand fully...

A note has the duration it shows. A quarter is a quarter and lasts 1 beat (if the beat is a quarter), etc...

The only ways to extend the duration of a single note is to either add a fermata above it or add a tie (and not a slur) that leads nowhere, to show that you need to allow the note to vibrate (otherwise notated l.v. (let vibrate). And you could add a tenuto sign (the - ) above the notehead (or bellow, if it's looking downwards, but this doesn't really extend the duration, or doesn't do it 'exactly right', if you understand what I mean...
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#2083517 - 05/16/13 05:19 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Nikolas]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
See measure 13 in the score. The first note needs to be held the whole measure.

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#2083521 - 05/16/13 05:45 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
m. 13 has 5 notes... which one do you mean?
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#2083523 - 05/16/13 05:53 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Agh, I meant measure 12. Sorry!

The first note in measure 12 needs to somehow last the whole measure. Do I change the note value to a whole note and then flip the stem UP?

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#2083524 - 05/16/13 05:58 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
It's difficult to notate it. Because the first 3 beats are BELLOW the first note and the last chord is ABOVE, so flipping the steams wouldn't be ideal.

I think that if you added a small tie on the A (which would end BEFORE the second note in the right hand) and a l.v. you would be fine...
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#2083529 - 05/16/13 06:25 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
I feel like I have learned a lot.

So...

Here's my second attempt. Any better?

EDIT: Slightly revised

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#2083530 - 05/16/13 06:29 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
MUCH better...

There are still some slurs that need flipping, etc, but otherwise it's fine I think...

in bars 9, 11, 13 and 14 you could flip the stem of the half note. It would look TONS better...

And on bar 33 the F in the right hand is what? A whole note with a stem?

But other than that it looks very much improved! Well done!

(and yes, you got a serious notating lesson here I think... wink But you're worth it! ;))
_________________________
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#2083534 - 05/16/13 06:42 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Nikolas]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
MUCH better...

There are still some slurs that need flipping, etc, but otherwise it's fine I think...

in bars 9, 11, 13 and 14 you could flip the stem of the half note. It would look TONS better...

And on bar 33 the F in the right hand is what? A whole note with a stem?

But other than that it looks very much improved! Well done!

(and yes, you got a serious notating lesson here I think... wink But you're worth it! ;))


Thanks very much!

About those four bars... are you asking that I flip the half notes DOWN while the melody above the half notes stays flipped UP? If that is indeed what you're asking, I cannot do that on MuseScore. I have tried so hard haha. I've even looked it up online and I can't find anything about it.

Quote:
And on bar 33 the F in the right hand is what? A whole note with a stem?


Well, you said something about half notes previously. Something along the lines of the bar having 6 counts instead of 4, and that I should switch the stems. Something about voices? (still not sure about all of that)

In hindsight it seems stupid that I left a stem on the whole note but I had the impression that it wouldn't work well. I don't know.

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#2083616 - 05/16/13 10:34 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5276
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Thanks very much!

About those four bars... are you asking that I flip the half notes DOWN while the melody above the half notes stays flipped UP? If that is indeed what you're asking, I cannot do that on MuseScore. I have tried so hard haha. I've even looked it up online and I can't find anything about it.
Yes.

I think that musescore would have such a tool, but check with them. Unfortunately I know nothing about musescore... frown

Quote:
Well, you said something about half notes previously. Something along the lines of the bar having 6 counts instead of 4, and that I should switch the stems. Something about voices? (still not sure about all of that)
Think of it this way: If you had a SIGNLE human, would (s)he be able to sing the bar as you want it? To hold the note and sing the second one and so on? No!

So you need 2 voices. These are the two layers I'm talking about. The first one will sing the half notes, and the second voice will sign rest - quarter - rest -quarter.

Quote:
In hindsight it seems stupid that I left a stem on the whole note but I had the impression that it wouldn't work well. I don't know.
Yes, it doesn't work well, your intention was right! LOL!

It just looks plain weird right now...

But in any case your score had a huge improvement...

I'll see if I find time to make a sort of a tutorial about making tidy scores and stuff, but it might take time...
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#2083625 - 05/16/13 10:45 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Nikolas]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: JoelW
About those four bars... are you asking that I flip the half notes DOWN while the melody above the half notes stays flipped UP? If that is indeed what you're asking, I cannot do that on MuseScore. I have tried so hard haha. I've even looked it up online and I can't find anything about it.

There's an ability to separate voices in MuseScore which I think would allow you to do this. (I think MuseScore calls them voices, not layers.)
_________________________
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#2083726 - 05/16/13 03:51 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Charles Peck Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Minneapolis, MN, USA
The improvements look a lot better. I didn't look to see if Nikolas mentioned this, but performance style text like calm and expressive or playful would typically go above the upper staff as opposed to in between the two staves.

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#2083741 - 05/16/13 04:25 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Charles Peck]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Charles Peck
The improvements look a lot better. I didn't look to see if Nikolas mentioned this, but performance style text like calm and expressive or playful would typically go above the upper staff as opposed to in between the two staves.


Originally Posted By: Nikolas

If they are expression markings they should be in the middle of the two staves and probably in Italics.

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#2083745 - 05/16/13 04:39 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Charles Peck Offline
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Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Minneapolis, MN, USA
I did a bit of digging and it seems there are examples of both. Though Nikolas's suggestion seems to be more common. I did engraving for some time though and it still looks a bit strange to my eyes. But there are many examples of it, so I am sure it is fine.

Just for clarification. Dynamics always go in between staves, unless they are specific to one of the lines. Tempo text and alterations always go above the top staff.

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#2083747 - 05/16/13 04:49 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Thanks Charles. You said you did fine both examples, would that mean that text markings like "Calm and expressive" CAN go above the two staves? This would be best in my case, because it looks ugly when they're bunched up against the dynamic markings.

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#2083748 - 05/16/13 04:52 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Nikolas, I finally discovered how to separate voices.

How do those bars look now?

http://pdfuploader.com/uppdfs/781/Miniature_no__2_in_D-flat_major.pdf

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#2083805 - 05/16/13 07:05 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
IstvánE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 84
Your page numbers are off, please fix that atrocity.


Edited by gizzards (05/16/13 07:05 PM)

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#2083812 - 05/16/13 07:22 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: IstvánE]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: gizzards
Your page numbers are off, please fix that atrocity.


I didn't touch them. How are they off? They look fine to me.

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#2083819 - 05/16/13 07:52 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Charles Peck Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Minneapolis, MN, USA
I've been thinking about it and realized that the way you have it now is a little conflicting with standard practice, which is why it looks odd to me. You can correct it in one of two ways.

If you intend it as a stylistic indication of a whole section, then it should go above the staff, bold, with a capitalized first letter, and not italicized. Same as you would with a tempo alteration.

If you intend it as a more micro structure comment, then keep it as is and just un-capitalize the first letter. What goes in between the staves more commonly are lines like dolce or espressivo. These kinds of descriptions are italicized and most frequently all lowercase.

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#2083821 - 05/16/13 08:07 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Ah, I see. Thanks.

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#2083833 - 05/16/13 08:45 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Charles Peck Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Minneapolis, MN, USA
A few more nitty gritty things on your score.

The ties kind of look like slurs. May be the program, but they have too much arch.

The right hand line starting in beat 4 of measure 12 through to measure 13 should be written 8va.

The slur in the left hand in measure 12 should be above the notes.

Measure 11, you slurred to a rest. Just go to the note before it.

Measure 20 - break the beam between beat 1 and 2 in the right hand.

Measure 25 right hand - staccato and legato give mixed signals, not sure what you're intending.

Measure 33 - you can't really right a breve in a 4/4 time signature. It needs to be tied with the other line on a different layer.

Hope that helps, I'm out of time now though. Good luck.

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#2083844 - 05/16/13 10:02 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
I tried to address the points you made.

http://pdfuploader.com/uppdfs/781/Miniature_no__2_in_D-flat_major.pdf

I don't understand what you mean by the ties and slurs looking the same though. Does it really matter what the curvature is? That's not a technicality, is it?

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#2083872 - 05/16/13 11:09 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Schubertslieder Offline
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Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
I am more used to seeing commonly used musical terminologies on scores than English.

Playful-- giocoso or scherzo
Calm -- calmo
Expressive -- espressivo

Best
_________________________
Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces

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#2083874 - 05/16/13 11:17 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Schubertslieder Offline
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Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
On measure 33, on the treble clef the quarter note "F" being tied to the whole note on the next measure, I think that quarter note F should be a whole note still tied to the next measure with a quarter rest on top.

A quarter note can not carry the 4 counts in that measure, then tied to the whole note on the next measure.
_________________________
Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces

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#2083876 - 05/16/13 11:23 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Schubertslieder]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Schubertslieder
On measure 33, on the treble clef the quarter note "F" being tied to the whole note on the next measure, I think that quarter note F should be a whole note still tied to the next measure with a quarter rest on top.

A quarter note can not carry the 4 counts in that measure, then tied to the whole note on the next measure.


But shouldn't each of the four beats be made very clear for counting purposes? I could add a stem and flip them to distinguish the voices but that just looks odd. A whole note with a stem! I think the quarter tied over works.

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#2083882 - 05/16/13 11:29 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
Quarter note is one count, in this case carrying 4 counts tied to the next measure.
I think it needs a quarter rest on the downbeat of measure 33. This will allow for the F to have whole note on the bottom tied to the next measure.
_________________________
Charles Peck (American)--Metropolitan
Debussy--various pieces
Grieg--various pieces

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