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#2083883 - 05/16/13 11:32 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Schubertslieder Offline
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Loc: Michigan, USA
I also wondered on measure 37, if adding ritardando was a possibility.
That would signal the ending even stronger than the pp already in place on measure 38.
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#2083886 - 05/16/13 11:37 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Schubertslieder Offline
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On measure 5, left hand accompaniment will be holding the notes while right hand will need to repeat those notes.
I wondered if adding staccatos on the left hand was a possibility.
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#2083893 - 05/16/13 11:59 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Schubertslieder]
JoelW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Schubertslieder
On measure 5, left hand accompaniment will be holding the notes while right hand will need to repeat those notes.
I wondered if adding staccatos on the left hand was a possibility.


I was hoping this would imply use of pedal. If this doesn't work well, what could I do to signal pedal without placing pedal? Nikolas had stated that if you place pedal once, you had better place pedal very specifically in the score. I'd much rather give the option of willful pedaling. But like I said, this measure must be pedaled. Thoughts?

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#2083901 - 05/17/13 12:14 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Schubertslieder Offline
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I would much rather see a ritardando on measure 5 and a fermata on measure 6 as that measure seem to come to a cadence.
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Debussy--various pieces
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#2083909 - 05/17/13 12:24 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Schubertslieder]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
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Originally Posted By: Schubertslieder
I would much rather see a ritardando on measure 5 and a fermata on measure 6 as that measure seem to come to a cadence.


There is no cadence on measure 6. Also, adding a rit. to measure 5 is definitely NOT what I had in mind.

I do, however, like your comment about the rit. on measure 38, easing into measure 39.

Could you answer my question about pedaling in measure 5?


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#2083940 - 05/17/13 01:51 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
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Joel,

In general pianists (of a certain level and above) will pedal away at will. When you have held notes that are IMPOSSIBLE to be held with your fingers down, then it's very obvious that the sustain pedal will be used in 95% of the times. The remaining 5% will be held with the sostenuto pedal, but this will probably need special instructions, since it's not too frequently met.

But your very first bar is again wrong! There's a quarter note rest missing from bellow the very first half note! Otherwise it's easy to assume it's the same voice/layer, and thus the measure would have 5 beats... :-/


Edited by Nikolas (05/17/13 01:53 AM)
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#2083959 - 05/17/13 02:38 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
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I don't understand. There IS a quarter note rest below the half note.

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#2083962 - 05/17/13 02:40 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
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Indeed there is NOT.
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#2083963 - 05/17/13 02:49 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
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Confused.

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#2083964 - 05/17/13 02:49 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
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In the SAME staff, not the one bellow! wink
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#2083981 - 05/17/13 03:42 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
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So, like this?

http://s7.postimg.org/3tcs9i18r/sdfsdfsdfsdfsdf.png

Why should a rest come before the quarter? (voice 2) MuseScore wants to add rests on every note after the quarter in voice 2. I can simply delete them because they clump up with the notes in voice one, but why is MuseScore placing them and do I need them?

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#2083982 - 05/17/13 03:48 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
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Like this, yes.

The idea is that if you had 2 staves, you would be adding the correct rests... Now you don't have 2 staves, but one, but you still've got two voices to deal with. Thus the rests ARE needed (especially BEFORE the note). AFTER the note you could get away and not add them, but it depends on the occasion...
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#2083984 - 05/17/13 03:54 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
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But the half-note is voice ONE, and the quarter is voice two. After the quarter and its tie, voice two is OVER in that measure. What is the purpose of voice two's quarter rest on beat one, and why can I get away with not notating the following rests in voice two? smile

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#2083993 - 05/17/13 04:50 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
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Because voice ONE and voice TWO are not completely visible, even with the different direction of the stems... You NEED the rest there...
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#2084065 - 05/17/13 08:46 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
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Well, I went a redid the entire score. Something just wasn't right about the last one. I feel like this one is better. If anyone wants to take ANOTHER look at this darn score, it wold be appreciated. (sorry!) smile


Oh, and I went ahead and gave it a [silly] name... grin

http://pdfuploader.com/uppdfs/781/The_Little_Blue_Brush.pdf

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#2084100 - 05/17/13 10:02 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
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Measure 38, inner voices in the right hand have only 3 beats.
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#2084343 - 05/17/13 06:01 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Charles Peck Offline
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Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Minneapolis, MN, USA
In Measure 25 and 29, you have a big jump and an accent in beat 1. I don't see how this could still be in the same long slur you have written in.

The slur between 11 and 12 - You have a slur that is landing and beginning on the same note, which would technically just be a continuous slur. This is written occasionally in piano scores, but it is technically incorrect and unclear to the performer.

There is some inconsistency in your slurring between 16 and 17 and the slurring between 21 and 22. I would probably decide where you want it to start. Also, why are measures 19 and 20 not slurred, but 21 and 22 are. They seem like similar music. If you really want them to be different then mark 19 and 20 more staccato. Also note that the octave jumps into beat three of measure 23 will be difficult to actually perform legato.

Measure 12 still has the staccato/legato confusion.

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#2084381 - 05/17/13 07:11 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Charles Peck]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
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Loc: USA
Quote:
In Measure 25 and 29, you have a big jump and an accent in beat 1. I don't see how this could still be in the same long slur you have written in.


How is it a problem? I've written a legato slur over the WHOLE phrase (except the staccatos) to signify a connected FEEL of the phrase, whether or not the pianist is using legato fingering or spurts of sustain.
Quote:

The slur between 11 and 12 - You have a slur that is landing and beginning on the same note, which would technically just be a continuous slur. This is written occasionally in piano scores, but it is technically incorrect and unclear to the performer.


That second "slur" is a tie.

Quote:
There is some inconsistency in your slurring between 16 and 17 and the slurring between 21 and 22. I would probably decide where you want it to start. Also, why are measures 19 and 20 not slurred, but 21 and 22 are. They seem like similar music. If you really want them to be different then mark 19 and 20 more staccato.


I see. I was going to add the staccatos but I wanted the pianist to have more freedom.

Quote:
Also note that the octave jumps into beat three of measure 23 will be difficult to actually perform legato.


Again, the slur is indicating a connected feel. Is this technically incorrect? Does the slur STRICTLY mean legato fingering?
Quote:

Measure 12 still has the staccato/legato confusion.


Again I say, it's a tie! smile Is there a better way I should notate that?

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#2084414 - 05/17/13 08:27 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
Measure 12: you can't tie an eighth note on beat one to a note on beat 3. If you mean for the A to be held continuously for the first three beats of the measure, you have to show a half note A on beat one (and tied to the quarter note on beat three).

For example, change the beat one eighth note A to a half note, and show an eighth rest underneath it on beat one for the inner voices before they start with CE on the & of 1.
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#2084420 - 05/17/13 08:39 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: PianoStudent88]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Why can't I tie an 8th note over??

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#2084426 - 05/17/13 08:46 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3160
Loc: Maine
Because a tie indicates a note held for the combined value of the tied note values, taking place during the durations occupied by the tied notes, without replaying the note after the initial strike. If your tie is meant to tie the two As and not have the second A be restruck, then logically that means: play A for an eighth note. Then be silent for 3 eighth notes (I'm ignoring the other voices). Then play A again for a quarter note. It makes no sense.
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#2084469 - 05/17/13 10:47 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: PianoStudent88]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Because a tie indicates a note held for the combined value of the tied note values, taking place during the durations occupied by the tied notes, without replaying the note after the initial strike. If your tie is meant to tie the two As and not have the second A be restruck, then logically that means: play A for an eighth note. Then be silent for 3 eighth notes (I'm ignoring the other voices). Then play A again for a quarter note. It makes no sense.


Hmm, so the value of the first A must reach the second A for the tie to work? In other words, it must be so that if a tie were absent, the only difference would be a restrike? I see now. Thanks for clearing that up. I will probably just use a 'let vibrate'.

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#2084487 - 05/17/13 11:56 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
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Joel: You should feel VERY lucky that various people have 'taken care of you' all round the clock! wink It's great to see this thread reach page 6-7 with so many replies and no harsh tone ever! (and with so much understanding from your part, no insulting from anyone and plenty of 'thanks').

now, to your general issue. I'll put some bullet points, WITHOUT looking at the score this time.

1. In piano music you get 2 staves. The most frequent way to use these two staves is left hand: the lower staff, right hand: the higher staff. BUT there are exceptions. Some times more staves are needed (for ultra complicated music, or music that jumps around constantly), or you have both hands in a single staff, to avoid changing clefs constantly.

2. The piano is a polyphonic instrument, which means that you may be called to play chords (you know how to notate these), but also more independent melodic lines. If there are two if them, you're fine to using the two staves provided. But if there are more, or if the left hand (for example) is occupied doing something else then you are forced to use 2 melodic lines in a single staff.

3. This is where you are still not getting it I think. You need to think of each voice/layer as a new staff and fill it in accordingly. Just because they are in the same staff and the rhythm may seem obvious to you, it doesn't work this way! There will be cases that you won't have to be too analytical with your rests, but for now just do it like I describe it.

4. Ties and slurs are two different things.
Ties: Are slurs that connect sequential notes of different value, to a single note of their added value (duration). They MUST be in the same pitch and next to each other. You can't jump a rest with a tie or anything like that.
Slurs: Are performance instructions about playing a passage in 'legato' mode (so in the piano with each key playing right before the key playing before is lifted... something... somehow...).
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#2084489 - 05/17/13 11:59 PM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5239
Loc: Europe
Finally.

Your problems could be solved if you were to rethink your composition and 'orchestration' a little.

Your held notes (that seem to create such a hassle to you) are not necessary to be there actually. Ok, I do understand that you'd like the A held for the whole bar, but really, with the pedalling of the bar, the result will most likely be the same (or close to that). Same goes for chords, etc...

Of course it's an opportunity to learn more stuff, and this thread has been wonderful I think, but none the less it's worth reconsidering what you're doing and why.

Your music is not polyphonic in nature (like a Bach work), so your need for inner voicing, multiple voices/layers/etc is not crucial I think.
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#2084495 - 05/18/13 12:27 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Charles Peck Offline
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Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Minneapolis, MN, USA
With regards to the way you are notating slurs over some of the big jumps, I think you are probably using it quite loosely and more as a phrase mark.

I just don't see how a pianist will possibly make the jump in measure 25 and 29 and play the accent, while maintaining any sense of legato. They are however capable of performing it as part of one phrase if that is how you intend it. But I don't think you really need to notate that, it seems clear to me. The constant 16ths and the continuous pattern in the left hand let the performer know that you are working in one phrase still.

So I would suggest either writing in the term legato (lowercase, italicized, and in between the staves) or indentify where the player will actually be able to play legato style fingering and mark slurs accordingly.

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#2084497 - 05/18/13 12:38 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Yes, feel very blessed to be getting all of this education from everyone here. Thank you all very much.

-

Quote:
Your held notes (that seem to create such a hassle to you) are not necessary to be there actually. Ok, I do understand that you'd like the A held for the whole bar, but really, with the pedalling of the bar, the result will most likely be the same (or close to that). Same goes for chords, etc...


Nikolas, usually this would work except for that the right hand needs to be holding down the A AND playing staccato chords with fingers 1 and 2. So I DO need to notate that it MUST be held down somehow. I now think "l.v." works best, or perhaps adding another voice.

-

This whole process has actually been quite overwhelming, in both good and bad ways. It's a lot to take in and I'm realizing just how many rules there are that I don't know. That's the stressful part. I sort of know what I'm doing but not fully. The most I can do (for now) is to try to take in as much advice from everyone here. I AM trying and I'm not going to give up. My ultimate goal with this piece is to perfect the score, record myself playing, and then post the recording in the Pianist's Corner with the score available.

Anyway...

About multiple voices and their rests, where do I notate the rests of voice-2 if voice-1 is cluttering the rest of the measure? Below everything?

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#2084513 - 05/18/13 01:25 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5239
Loc: Europe
... Bellow...

Joel, If I had more time in my hands I'd try to notate a few bars for you, but right now I'm completely overwhelmed and can't do *ahem*... frown That's why I keep replying in text rather than a score, which would illustrate everything in the best possible way...

Yes, if you have you move the rest further down, to avoid clashing with the other voice...
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#2084532 - 05/18/13 02:53 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
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I'm revising it again. I just finished page 1. Are there any technical errors this page now?

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#2084540 - 05/18/13 03:25 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: JoelW]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5239
Loc: Europe
No glaring errors that I can see!

You are still missing any kind of legato slurs (I would assume you'd like the phrases to be played in legato mode...), but there's nothing wrong with that really...

VERY WELL DONE!

And now my rant to OTHER members (who actually have not participated here): If only these other members here would check out this thread and see how these forums work, this would be a better place... Oh well...
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#2084541 - 05/18/13 03:30 AM Re: Any tips for this score? [Re: Nikolas]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
No glaring errors that I can see!

You are still missing any kind of legato slurs (I would assume you'd like the phrases to be played in legato mode...), but there's nothing wrong with that really...

VERY WELL DONE!



Thanks!

I didn't incorporate any legato slurs because I have a lot of specific pedal markings and everything outside of the pedal markings really doesn't NEED to be played legato, though I'm sure people naturally will. Whether they decide to connect the notes or have a more detached sound, it doesn't matter as long as they obey the pedal markings. That's important. smile


Quote:
And now my rant to OTHER members (who actually have not participated here): If only these other members here would check out this thread and see how these forums work, this would be a better place... Oh well...

What do you mean?

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