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#2084523 - 05/18/13 02:01 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: AZNpiano]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
P.S. OK -- grin -- I got curious enough to go and see exactly who this is, what the Grieg pieces are, and what's the person's other repertoire.

AZN, I could not disagree with you more. I'll take it further: You're being flat-out unfair to the contestant, and you're just wrong when you say stuff like "there are 10,000 other pieces far, far, far more worthy to be programmed for such a competition. For somebody to pick something so blatantly easy, it's bordering on mocking the entire competition itself."

I assume the person you're talking about is Alexey Chernov. I went and listened to the pieces on YouTube. I have to disagree with your characterizing them as being so "easy." Sure, 'the notes' are easy -- but the notes of many challenging pieces are easy. Would you say that someone who plays Bach's 1st Prelude in a competition is mocking it? Or Chopin's A minor Waltz from Op. 34? Playing these Grieg pieces in a routine, ho-hum way would be easy, but there is a whole world of possibility to give them the needed "lilts," and to make them fresh and interesting. I'd bet my bippy that Chernov is intending to do that, and that he will.

And anyway, again assuming that you mean him, I simply cannot make any sense of what you said in view of the rest of his repertoire. Here is his entire 1st round:

Preliminary Recital, Phase I
BACH Toccata in G Minor, BWV 915
SCRIABIN Three Études, op. 65
RAVEL Gaspard de la nuit

Preliminary Recital, Phase II
BEETHOVEN Sonata No. 32 in C Minor, op. 111
LIGETI Étude VI: Automne à Varsovie
GRIEG Waltz in A Minor, op. 12, no. 2
Waltz in E Minor, op. 38, no. 7
Valse-impromptu in E Minor, op. 47, no. 1
LISZT Mephisto Waltz No. 1


Especially placed in a program in such a manner, I think the Grieg pieces are wonderful, whether in a competition or in a regular recital. I am at a total loss to understand your being so intensely negative about it.

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#2084603 - 05/18/13 07:41 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7840
http://www.qeimc.be/

Just sayin'...

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#2084619 - 05/18/13 08:42 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Mark_C]
Brendan Online   content



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5310
Loc: McAllen, TX
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Especially placed in a program in such a manner, I think the Grieg pieces are wonderful, whether in a competition or in a regular recital. I am at a total loss to understand your being so intensely negative about it.


I agree completely. They should be a beautiful diversion from the standard repertoire that most other candidates are performing and I'm looking forward to hearing them.

If you recall the 2005 competition, Roberto Plano's prelim recital offered nothing terribly substantial (Danzas Argentinas, Brahms op. 118, and some Scarlatti Sonatas), but he played with a such amazing artistry and style (compared to other candidates who cluster-bombed their way through Prokofiev 7 and the Liszt Sonata) that passing him on was a no-brainer.
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#2084631 - 05/18/13 09:26 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I also agree with Mark and Brendan.

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#2084640 - 05/18/13 09:53 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
pianoloverus Online   content
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I think the inclusion of the third Waltz, which is not on the beginner level, at least partially justifies the inclusion of the other waltzes. I would have preferred selecting different Lyric Pieces than the first two waltzes because I think those two are such slight works(both technically and musically) that they don't really belong on a competition recital. I'd guess Chernov chose them so he could have the programming idea of playing three waltzes, but I don't think there is much any pianist can say of significance when dealing with such minor works. I don't think the first two Waltzes really allow the contestant to show much artistry, so substituting more significant Lyric Piece(s) would have been better.

For those who liked the three waltz selections, would you feel the same way if Chernov had chosen the very last Lyric Piece(also a waltz) instead of the Valse-Impromptu?

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#2084647 - 05/18/13 09:59 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: wr]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2559
Originally Posted By: wr
http://www.qeimc.be/

Just sayin'...



WOW! Thanks for the link.

I just skimmed through a few semifinal videos and guess what?

I stopped by Boris Giltburg and gave his (another) Liszt Sonata a chance.

Well, I wouldn't have imagined myself listening to whole of it, especially with Giltburg's utmost control in every note he plays. But, to my surprise, I ended up listening till the end. Had he performed the last octaves a bit better, I would have left with utmost satisfaction.
Nevertheless it is worth giving it a try.

http://www.qeimc.be/cgi?usr=sajtcua2fy&a...p;flux=65417999


Edited by Hakki (05/18/13 01:07 PM)
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#2084692 - 05/18/13 11:21 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
There are a ton of Rach 3's, but I see two Brahms 1's, a Brahms 2, and a Rach-Pag in the finals, so I'll try to catch those. Also, I see an Alkan Symphony, Rachmaninoff 1st sonata, Beethoven Op. 101, and Busoni Indianisches Tagebuch, so I'm interested to hear those.

Overall, I'm also intrigued to follow Alessandro Taverna for the entire competition, hehe.

I will try to keep up with this thread very often.


Edited by Orange Soda King (05/18/13 11:21 AM)

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#2084698 - 05/18/13 11:25 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Orange Soda King]
Cinnamonbear Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3898
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
I also agree with Mark and Brendan.


I agreed with Mark before he made his first reply to AZNPiano's first post. Or, should I say, Mark agreed with me, and posted first. crazy laugh
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I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2084705 - 05/18/13 11:29 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: pianoloverus]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6334
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the inclusion of the third Waltz, which is not on the beginner level, at least partially justifies the inclusion of the other waltzes. I would have preferred selecting different Lyric Pieces than the first two waltzes because I think those two are such slight works(both technically and musically) that they don't really belong on a competition recital. I'd guess Chernov chose them so he could have the programming idea of playing three waltzes, but I don't think there is much any pianist can say of significance when dealing with such minor works. I don't think the first two Waltzes really allow the contestant to show much artistry, so substituting more significant Lyric Piece(s) would have been better.


thumb thumb thumb
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#2084711 - 05/18/13 11:37 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: carey]
Cinnamonbear Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3898
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the inclusion of the third Waltz, which is not on the beginner level, at least partially justifies the inclusion of the other waltzes. I would have preferred selecting different Lyric Pieces than the first two waltzes because I think those two are such slight works(both technically and musically) that they don't really belong on a competition recital. I'd guess Chernov chose them so he could have the programming idea of playing three waltzes, but I don't think there is much any pianist can say of significance when dealing with such minor works. I don't think the first two Waltzes really allow the contestant to show much artistry, so substituting more significant Lyric Piece(s) would have been better.


thumb thumb thumb




But is that not the wonder of it? The genius of the selections for this program?? What will the artist do to bring these pieces to the level of the sublime??? Is there some as-yet undiscovered nuance in these pieces to be brought forth the first time in history???????? (I would like to think, maybe so!)

Or, are these pieces simply turkeys, and everyone knows what happens when you try to put lipstick on a turkey?

Oh, the suspense!!! grin
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#2084716 - 05/18/13 11:59 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: carey]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
....I don't think the first two Waltzes really allow the contestant to show much artistry, so substituting more significant Lyric Piece(s) would have been better.

thumb thumb thumb

The only way I can understand where youse guys are coming from is that either in general you don't value rhythms as much as I do (very possible, since I value them very highly), or (probably doubtful) you don't realize how much performances of such pieces depend on the player's flair, subtlety, and creativity with rhythm. Maybe try this: Just imagine playing the pieces with no flair or lilt -- like, basically metronomically -- and compare it to some good performances that you can find online -- and see if you still think what you just said.

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#2084726 - 05/18/13 12:15 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
DameMyra Offline
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Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1956
Loc: South Jersey
Wow, the competition hasn't even started yet and the heated discussions/controversies have already begun. This should be fun.
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#2084728 - 05/18/13 12:18 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: DameMyra]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: DameMyra
Wow, the competition hasn't even started yet and the heated discussions/controversies have already begun. This should be fun.

No good!
You have to take sides. ha

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#2084746 - 05/18/13 01:00 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19339
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The only way I can understand where youse guys are coming from is that either in general you don't value rhythms as much as I do (very possible, since I value them very highly), or (probably doubtful) you don't realize how much performances of such pieces depend on the player's flair, subtlety, and creativity with rhythm. Maybe try this: Just imagine playing the pieces with no flair or lilt -- like, basically metronomically -- and compare it to some good performances that you can find online -- and see if you still think what you just said.
As you do so often, you assume your point of view is correct, and act shocked that anyone could disagree. I don't think the first two waltzes allow much creativity, flair, or anything else. I think he just chose them because he wanted to make that little segment unified in some way other than just choosing several more random Lyric Pieces.

I listened to Rachmaninov playing the a minor Waltz. He didn't play it metronomically but OTOH I don't see how anyone could think "What a great and musical performance. He had such great insight and ideas in that little piece."

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#2084748 - 05/18/13 01:02 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2559
Another Liszt performance from the QEC.
Stunning!

http://www.qeimc.be/cgi?usr=cvm2sm4cjq&a...p;flux=65325996
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#2084781 - 05/18/13 01:59 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
As you do so often, you assume your point of view is correct, and act shocked that anyone could disagree.

No. smile

Let me talk about what I know -- I mean facts -- and then about what's "points of view."

What I know: There are endless ways to play these "simple" pieces, even just in terms of rhythms. The spectrum of such possibilities spans an extremely great range of talent and skill, ranging from just "OK" performances (not to mention bad), like what would be shown by most 2nd year students, as referred to in that earlier post, and all the way through good, very good, and above. And further, within each of those levels, what the performer does shows a lot about his/her musical personality. And all of that is of interest for a competition.

As for points of view: You may not feel those things are important, although to tell you the truth I don't see how you couldn't (and yes, that's a point of view). smile

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#2084797 - 05/18/13 02:42 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Mark_C]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19339
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
As you do so often, you assume your point of view is correct, and act shocked that anyone could disagree.

No. smile

Let me talk about what I know -- I mean facts -- and then about what's "points of view."

What I know: There are endless ways to play these "simple" pieces, even just in terms of rhythms. The spectrum of such possibilities spans an extremely great range of talent and skill, ranging from just "OK" performances (not to mention bad), like what would be shown by most 2nd year students, as referred to in that earlier post, and all the way through good, very good, and above. And further, within each of those levels, what the performer does shows a lot about his/her musical personality. And all of that is of interest for a competition.

As for points of view: You may not feel those things are important, although to tell you the truth I don't see how you couldn't (and yes, that's a point of view). smile
Mind bogglingly arrogant.

Again, you assume what is just your opinion(calling it "what I know") is fact. Then more arrogance and a put down with the "You may not feel those things are important" part which only makes sense if the first part(your opinion) is true.

Then(again!) the usual shock("I don't see how you couldn't") that someone might not agree with you.

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#2084799 - 05/18/13 02:47 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6334
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
PL and Mark -

As is usually the case gentlemen, you BOTH have valid arguments !!!! grin

Ultimately, the programming choice will either work for or against the contestant - even if he plays all three waltzes extremely well. Given the difficulty of everything else he's programmed, and the brevity of the first two of the three waltzes, in the great scheme of things this may not be a big deal. And just because it is a Grieg "Lyric Piece", there is absolutely nothing lightweight about the Opus 47 No. 1.
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#2084812 - 05/18/13 03:27 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: carey]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6145
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: carey

Ultimately, the programming choice will either work for or against the contestant


He gets points from me just by not programming Chopin. grin
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It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2084816 - 05/18/13 03:40 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Damon]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6334
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: carey

Ultimately, the programming choice will either work for or against the contestant


He gets points from me just by not programming Chopin. grin


And he loses points from me for not programming Brahms !!! grin
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#2084818 - 05/18/13 03:41 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6145
Loc: St. Louis area
I have disqualified Yekwon Sunwoo. wink
_________________________
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#2084829 - 05/18/13 03:56 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
Schubertslieder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 373
Loc: Michigan, USA
Grieg is one of my favorite composer so he gets extra bonus points from me.

Anyways, I have never been told by any of my teachers that playing extremely difficult pieces will get me better points. They said properly preparing the pieces and performing well is always better.
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Debussy--various pieces
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#2084845 - 05/18/13 04:44 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
carey Offline
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Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6334
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Some observations.......

Hard to believe that Jury Chairman John Giordano has been involved with the Cliburn since 1973. He certainly carved out a wonderful career for himself in Fort Worth.

In looking at the US schools/conservatories attended by the contestants....Juilliard and Curtis are heavily represented. Other schools included in the mix are the Boston Conservatory (2), New England Conservatory (1), TCU (2 - no surprise there), Yale (1), Peabody (1), Indiana University/South Bend (1) and Principia College (1).
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#2084980 - 05/18/13 10:58 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
....[this that and the other, but nothing about the substance]....
grin

Do you have anything to say about the substance of what we were discussing? Do you really want to say that any of those specifics I stated aren't so? Which ones? I welcome you to give it a try. The "it's just your opinion" stuff that you love so much doesn't apply to everything, you know.

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#2084989 - 05/18/13 11:44 PM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
Brendan Online   content



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5310
Loc: McAllen, TX
Not to backtrack the conversation to Grieg, but I have to say that the only servicing the other end of the spectrum is probably a worse idea than a few delicacies, e.g.:


Preliminary Recital, Phase I
LISZT Hungarian Rhapsody No. 9
MUSSORGSKY Pictures at an Exhibition

Preliminary Recital, Phase II
WAGNER-LISZT Isoldens Liebestod
BRAHMS Sonata No. 3 in F Minor, op. 5

Semifinal Recital
THEOFANIDIS Birichino
BEETHOVEN Variations and Fugue in E-flat Major, op. 35 ("Eroica")
PROKOFIEV Sonata No. 6 in A Major, op. 82

I love all of those pieces, but that is some truly awful programming, IMO. There's little breadth and such heavy programming really wears down an audience.
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#2084991 - 05/19/13 12:03 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
Cinnamonbear Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3898
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Brendan
[...] I love all of those pieces, but that is some truly awful programming, IMO. There's little breadth and such heavy programming really wears down an audience.


Exactly! The program itself deserves as much artistic attention as the execution of the individual pieces of which it is comprised. Pacing, flow, texture, dramatic arc, etc., apply to the macro (program) as well as the micro (performance). The program itself should "do" something.
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#2084994 - 05/19/13 12:09 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Brendan]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19776
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Brendan
....that is some truly awful programming, IMO. There's little breadth....

Nonsense! -- he includes the Theofanidis Birichino! grin


(Everybody has to include the Theofanidis Birichino.)

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#2085016 - 05/19/13 01:22 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Mark_C]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2140
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Preliminary Recital, Phase I
BACH Toccata in G Minor, BWV 915
SCRIABIN Three Études, op. 65
RAVEL Gaspard de la nuit

Preliminary Recital, Phase II
BEETHOVEN Sonata No. 32 in C Minor, op. 111
LIGETI Étude VI: Automne à Varsovie
GRIEG Waltz in A Minor, op. 12, no. 2
Waltz in E Minor, op. 38, no. 7
Valse-impromptu in E Minor, op. 47, no. 1
LISZT Mephisto Waltz No. 1



I feel like if he took out the Grieg, he'd be left playing only the most ridiculous ball-busters in the entire repertoire. Seriously?! Gaspard + the op.65 etudes in one recital, then Op.111 followed by the Ligeti and Mephisto Waltz in another?
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#2085071 - 05/19/13 06:13 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: Mark_C]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5483
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
What I know: There are endless ways to play these "simple" pieces, even just in terms of rhythms. The spectrum of such possibilities spans an extremely great range of talent and skill, ranging from just "OK" performances (not to mention bad), like what would be shown by most 2nd year students, as referred to in that earlier post, and all the way through good, very good, and above. And further, within each of those levels, what the performer does shows a lot about his/her musical personality. And all of that is of interest for a competition.

If that's the case, there are still thousands upon thousands of pieces more worthy to be programmed AND STILL BE effective at showing all that "musical personality."

Obviously, you belong to the camp that believes one can program anything and everything he/she wants, even for an international competition of such caliber. Fine. That's your stance. My stance remains that the Grieg was programmed for shock value, which may engender more than a few chuckles from the audience when the said repertoire's difficulty cliff becomes so apparent and appalling.
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#2085088 - 05/19/13 07:11 AM Re: 2013 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition Megathread [Re: AZNpiano]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7840
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
For somebody to pick something so blatantly easy, it's bordering on mocking the entire competition itself.


And is there something wrong with that? IMO, competition mocking is a great idea, and competitors should do it at every opportunity (especially if Darth Veda is on the jury and you aren't one of her students).

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