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#2085382 - 05/19/13 07:37 PM Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 511
Loc: USA
I simply cannot understand why they would design the action with the jack regulating screw behind a big letoff button on this particular brand, which makes it nearly impossible to adjust the jack. Every time I come across a grand in need of this adjustment I have to cringe a little.

Are there any tricks to making this regulation adjustment a little easier?
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#2085389 - 05/19/13 07:59 PM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: Jbyron

Are there any tricks to making this regulation adjustment a little easier?


One is to regulate jacks with the action on a table, or regulating bench, instead of your lap; I prefer to regulate jacks from a birds-eye view. Another is to get a thinner jack regulating tool like this.
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#2085391 - 05/19/13 08:05 PM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
There should not be a great deal of adjustments necessary if they were set up when fitted and nothing has been re-newed. I agree it's sometimes a struggle to get at the adjusters when everything is in place though.
If they need lots of adjustments to bring them into correct point of contact with the rollers then I would remove the complete hammer beam with the hammers still attached to allow easy access. It's only 5 or six screws and makes life a lot easier. thumb
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#2085393 - 05/19/13 08:08 PM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 511
Loc: USA
It's difficult to reach the jack screw whether the action is on a bench, in the action cavity turned around, which is how I prefer to regulate jacks usually, or on your lap because of the design of this particular piano. Other grands are no problem. I have the smallest jack regulating tool available.

I'm hoping for some tips from technicians with experience regulating Petrofs. I'm talking about jack to knuckle alignment.
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#2085397 - 05/19/13 08:31 PM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
I have a regulating tool with a thin shaft that fits easily between those dowels and into the space above. I can reach three jack adjusters from one position. I've had the tool for years, I think it was from Renner. To have the hammer down on the note I am adjusting brings the jack adjuster within reach of the tool. I look at what I am doing from above and, with practice, the tool can be positioned without looking at it so the whole operation moves along quite quickly.

I find my regular tool also does the same thing on most of those actions.

I don't know if the newer ones are any more difficult than the older ones. The ones I knew are now 10-15 yrs old.


Edited by rxd (05/19/13 08:47 PM)
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Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

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#2085440 - 05/19/13 10:17 PM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 557
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
I have ground down my adjuster shank to make it thinner about where the dowels would be. Then slide it up between the dowels to adjust the jack screw.
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#2085444 - 05/19/13 10:23 PM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 599
Loc: shirley, MA
Jurgen sells a very thin shafted jack screw adjusting tool. He's got one with a spade end and the same tool with a self-finding end. For this application, I bought the spade ended one, and it really helps to get in there.

I don't buy the "adjust the jacks before everything is put together" and that's it for the jacks scenario. I adjust jack position throughout the regulation and want access. I have also pulled the letoff buttons and installed shorter ones to get this access.

It seems to be a European way of setting up Renner actions...that is if this is a Renner action.

Jim Ialeggio
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advanced soundboard and action redesigns
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#2085451 - 05/19/13 10:44 PM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: jim ialeggio]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1168
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Jurgen sells a very thin shafted jack screw adjusting tool. He's got one with a spade end and the same tool with a self-finding end. For this application, I bought the spade ended one, and it really helps to get in there.

I don't buy the "adjust the jacks before everything is put together" and that's it for the jacks scenario. I adjust jack position throughout the regulation and want access. I have also pulled the letoff buttons and installed shorter ones to get this access.

It seems to be a European way of setting up Renner actions...that is if this is a Renner action.

Jim Ialeggio


+1
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#2085455 - 05/19/13 10:49 PM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
There was one time, after being particularly aggravated, I tried detaching the entire hammer rail and swinging it up so I could access the screws. As crazy as it sounds, it worked.

:shrug:
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#2085977 - 05/20/13 08:30 PM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 511
Loc: USA
Thanks, rxd and the rest for your input.
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#2086122 - 05/21/13 04:59 AM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
If so difficult the letoff button rails may be unscrewed (if it is a separate rail, I just do not recall if it is on Detoa action but I guess so). But taking out all the hammer rail may lend to hammer position and/or spread change, I would do so if the whippens are much twisted and need a lot of papering and adjustments, as it can be the case with older whippen design with Schwander spring.(also easier to check assist springs and repetitions, to center jacks, etc, but this is in early stages of regulation)
I hate pushing strong on letoff dowels as they can get loose and the later the better)

The jack need to be worked / pusch a little firm on its rest cushion when modifications are done, just to insure future stability and detect settling.
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#2086128 - 05/21/13 05:49 AM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Just to clarify. There is absolutely never any need to ' push strong on the let off dowels' if the thin or ground down tool is slid between the dowels all the way to the usually more than ample space above them as I thought I made clear. The thin shaft is also very flexible. It is 7-8" long making it even more flexible.
When I first bought it, it was the only one available and I thought it too long but in use I find it ideal for this particular job.

The one I have has the longer slot. Some of the older tools have a short slot which doesn't fit the newer adjusting screw heads.

I am very interested in the self locating tool.


Edited by rxd (05/21/13 05:57 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2086131 - 05/21/13 06:27 AM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: rxd]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rxd
Just to clarify.
When I first bought it, it was the only one available and I thought it too long but in use I find it ideal for this particular job.

The one I have has the longer slot. Some of the older tools have a short slot which doesn't fit the newer adjusting screw heads.

I am very interested in the self locating tool.


The tool you talk of is yet sold by Jahnn I guess, and Renner, with a thin rod somewhat supple.

self locating screw driver fro drop screw is availeable in some electronic stores.
I rounded the cavity of my jack's tool so the tip goes faster on the right place

I made a few guided screwdrivers by soldering brass tubes around the blade. To have something comfortable the brass tube have to be thick enough so it can be grounded in bowl, a simple tube is OK but in the end the difficulty is the same, I finally just took the habit of using a thin screwdriver, I just added a thicker wooden handle.

For damper screw that guided screwdriver is useful, but one need to make one for each screw diameter, if too tight you feel you are doing harm to the screw if you are not perfectly straight, and if too large you have no success to find the slot.

The 2 sided tool sold with one side for drop screws (slotted) is thick. it happens that even above the letoff dowel the access is not enough, then the letoff rails can be dismounted (and hammer mating can be checked at that occasion with great comfort)

BTW I once forget once to tighten the letoff rail screw on a Renner action and chased for 2 days where that damned floating let off sensation was coming from wink
with Schwander type whippens the letoff is yet smoother than with the actual usual model, but then it was as butter !
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#2086142 - 05/21/13 07:09 AM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: rxd]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 599
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: rxd
I am very interested in the self locating tool.

I originally bought Jurgen's spade bit tool for this situation. It worked great. An unexpected plus was that that tool is so light and feels so good in the hand, its my go to tool now.

I recently bought the self-finding version, but I think the self-finding tip, which is of course larger than the spaded one, would run into clearance problems in this poor access letoff situation. But with decent access, it's really nice.

Jim Ialeggio
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Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2086155 - 05/21/13 07:48 AM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Yes. I have made ordinary self locating screwdrivers with a piece of rubber or plastic tube but I was imagining some kind of small funnel shape at the end to aid in blind locating the tool we are describing.

Edit. I just thought maybe a short piece of tube on the one I have would, while not quite what I am envisioning, help somewhat.


Edited by rxd (05/21/13 07:56 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2086171 - 05/21/13 08:55 AM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7245
Loc: France
In any case, the result of a thin tube is not pleasing, the opening must be conical to be helful.

if not finding the screw is as unnerving than without, as you have a lesser feel of the screw head, due to the round tube.

once in place of course it helps (I am mostly thinking of damper screws there.) Extra light tools are very agreable, also, as some Yamaha regulating tools.

PS and for action screw, the Renner long screwdrivers are really worth, light, long, pear shape light handle, good steel.




Edited by Olek (05/21/13 08:56 AM)
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#2086205 - 05/21/13 10:38 AM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1889
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I long ago reduced the diameter of my regulating tool by turning it against my electric rotary grindstone so it would fit between the let-off dowels.

When rebuilding or doing a top to bottom action recondition on the Renner style action, Baldwin, W,N&G, etc with removable let-off rails-removing the let-off rails until you need to set escapement makes spacing and phasing of hammers and strings easier to see accurately.
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#2086215 - 05/21/13 10:53 AM Re: Accessing jack regulating screw, Petrof grands [Re: Jbyron]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21292
Loc: Oakland
I get the tool in somehow, and take comfort in the fact that it does not need to be done often.
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