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Quote:

“I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right.”
-P.T. Barnum

With respect to criticism, I have always appreciated the following thought from F A Clark, though all too often I fail to follow it:

”Criticism, like rain, should be gentle enough to nourish a man’s growth without destroying his roots.”

Dear Loren D, will soon be a year since you put the topic: "Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix"
on the forum. I am very grateful to you that you are not afraid of ridicule and mocking attitude of venerable technicans that. I get a lot of letters ( Russian speaking people of the former USSR) who request to clarify the details a shim about. This is in part thanks to you. Thank God, nobody did write that it does not work. None of layman do write angry letters to my address with the accusation of fraud. Every a piano as saved use a shim have your merit, I think. May God grant you good health and success business. Sincerely, Max from Kazakhstan.

daniokeeper,m o r e one Thanks from Max!!!

WHat is admirable is the videos with numerous explanations from Max, that at last tuning wise show some non realization.
I can assure you that it may be too much to hear if you understand Russian.
Hence those comments you received.

Or, what you show is to be considered at "Do it yourself" level, as an intend to help other in a similar situation.

In that case I would lower the aspect "teacher" and just show things as solutions I have find because of the lack of piano technician in my area.

Then , many of us want to find something new that would definitively bring the proof that we have some brain between our 2 ears. Hence the quest, some have more luck there than others.

Also, describing the process of tuning is very possible , but way more complicated it looks.
Having a decent , plausible, verified explanation on what happen to one string plus a tuning pin, , 2 strings, 3 strings, I wish you good luck.

The one who knows are probably not willing to give descriptions, or only to close friends or colleagues; some will eventually sell something.

That is why I would be attentive when generous people are trying to make you loss a little less time. You seem to begin to listen so not everything is lost.

Losing is not hard. Find and keep a much more difficult
WHat is admirable is the videos with numerous explanations from Max, that at last tuning wise show some non realization.
What do you say about that admirable videos?

I made only a few, on Youtube.

adding explanations is the difficult part.

That you talk so much the audience expect to see something useful or interesting, you should make tuning videos after having mastered the bases.

At last the one we have seen showed us that you need help, hence the numerous answers and proposals for help.

You are beginning to get some feel with the tuning lever, with that you can begin to learn to put the note wher you want, in a way it will not move .

Isaac,I must a lot of work on myself. Only then will ask the advice of competent technicians

Then your next videos will be more providing coherent explanations, I hope anyway. Anyone have the right to believe things, and then discover it is only a part of the process, or to change the way he does.

But a few things cannot be avoided :

1° training himself for optimal sensitivity of the hand that manipulate the lever and the one that play (I know some do not want to hear that but I have seen their work and they should try to learn a little something more, as I try myself at any opportunity)

2° ear training : train to listen separately to the fundamental tone and to the (inharmonic) partials.
Naturally the ear tend to hear a single pitch, listening to partials is not so easy at first.

(same comment than above)

A basic understanding of the behavior of the string, the coupled strings and the acoustical part (bridge/soundboard, strings/ tuning pins /pinblock) is helping very much

Listening to concert pianos and piano music, then trying to remember their tone, you could even try to tune while some piano music is played so you have a sample of the tone you want to obtain.

Always keep in mind that we are working with elastic material (strings, wood, tuning pins)

Learn to recognize that elasticity or springiness when tuning (when tuning you modify it) The springiness is what help the tuner (even the one of the tuning lever in some situation)

Not be afraid of the strings, as many tuners are for years.

I guess that some instructions have been given yet, I know it is not easy to make videos but try to make more just tuning unisons, you will have more comments and instructions.

Best regards

A hole and a bush increased while in service. As a result was lost quired friction between a hole and a pin. A shim 3mm during screwing in pinblock partially collapsed. Its fiber filled the gap. Shim partially destroyed fibers stuck(glued) in a circle hole. Wood hole was treated a cardboard product recycling. Nothing was damaged in the course of operations

Hello Maximillyan,

There is nothing wrong with using a shim for a loose pin.

But, maybe you are not familiar with C/A glue?

Sometimes.... typically a loose pin is caused by what you said. The hole becomes too big.

If that is the only problem, a cardboard shim is logical and is perfectly safe.

Sometimes there is a bigger problem. One or more of the laminations, or layers of wood, in the pinblock may be splitting and/or becoming unglued from each other.


C/A glue is thin like water and dries very fast. So, the C/A glue will make the wood swell and will tend to strengthen the pinblock if it is developing any structural problems.

The cardboard shim method is perfectly safe if used with wisdom. There is one thing to be careful of...

Just like you can use a wedge to split firewood, you want to be sure that the structure of the pinblock is in good condition.

If the pinblock has a split in the wood, there is danger that the shim may act as a wedge and open the split wider. That is why you test other near tuning pins for tightness before using a shim, and after using a shim. That way, a comparison can be made to make sure that the pinblock has good structure.

With C/A glue, the wood swells and the structure is strengthened by the glue.

Using a shim is perfectly safe if done with wisdom. I am sure that Maximillyan has the wisdom.

Greetings, Joe.
Thank you for the constructive comments on the use corrugated cardboard shim. I am glad that you shared the problem of lost pins on the two options.

When we have only an occasional loss of pin and splitting layers pinblock
In the first case, we use "method of foot wraps." Cardboard can not hurt, because it is soft and springs back
“Sometimes.... typically a loose pin is caused by what you said. The hole becomes too big”
.In the second case we have a more complicated repair, as if you wrote a partial separation of layers of wood. Here we can not use cardboard. It will be useless as a "dead poultices"
I do not agree with you that the cardboard can be a problem. And will the wedge? However, the effectiveness of such repair is 0%
I had a similar practice when entire sectors of pinblock have been violated . I deleted these pins and poured into it's hole very liquid PVA with a syringe. After two days I'm re-screwed the pins without a shim. A pin very tightly fixed. He did rotated bad . But I managed restore a pitch. I dare to hope that the CA is more efficient
I would like to advise customers not to buy the piano sounds that resemble the "chimes". It is necessary that such a piano was tested a technician . Otherwise, it may get a big problem in the future. Regards, Max

Hello Maximillyan,

Yes, CA is more efficient. I am often able to tune the piano on the same trip.

It is not necessary to remove the pin. Since the CA is thin like water, it wicks into the wood like water.

The bad part of CA is that is has a very strong smell. If someone has breathing problems or pets, they need to be kept away from the CA while it is drying and giving off an odor.

Also, CA sets very fast. If you are nor careful, you could find your hand glued to the piano.

I have a question. You have own statistics a save of a pitch after the use of the CA?
I think that the application of CA is wood don't a connecting stick together, and the it's baked only . As a result, it's swelling and to wedge. How to behave "cured pins." They do not differ from the healthy?

Here are a few videos I found. It may be better to show than to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9GST_91qI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOxt7YxCjU

Apparently those pins were not very loose in the videos. For very loose pins, a device called a "piano tilter" would be used to set the piano on its back and then apply glue.

I have used CA glue many, many times. There is only one time I was dissatisfied. (All other times succeeded.) The owner had a spinet piano. Without my knowledge, a family member decided to refinish it. The pins were already ridiculously loose... possible pinblock damage or possible contamination. But since the piano was refinished, it was now viewed as a family heirloom. I was asked to try to save it so the refinishing job would not go to waste. Since it was an old spinet piano, the expense could not be justified. I told them i would try, but could not make any promises in this particular case.

I used CA glue and the piano did well for several years. But, after a few years, the pins became loose again. I treated the block again, at my own expense. It improved. This was many years ago, so my memory is not certain on this next point, but I believe I ultimately treated the pinblock a 3rd time at my own expense. I informed them that the pinblock simply would not absorb any more CA.

Thinking back on it today, I believe that the pinblock had been exposed to some sort of contaminant... maybe oil, silicon, or something else.

I believe that is the only time CA has ever failed to work on a pinblock for me. I cannot recall it failing me in any other circumstance.

I dare to assume that no oil or silicon here. No, rather a lot of microcracks around every pins. As a consequence of the ineffectiveness of the use of CA

I believe that the operation of the CA infusion on these videos is ineffective. That is why, a very small amount of glue spilled into the hole. CA is more spilled on pin here. Rather a pin was glued to a wood. I think that when we shall tuning a pin it's will squeak and it will be difficult to "catch" in the desired position. I believe that it would be wiser to twist off a pin. Then the CA spilled so it been on the back of the hole (bottom). That is to change the structure of the wood but do spill on a pin . Upright piano need to lay down on his back, I think. To more glue soaked as much as possible

Man, look at the glue running down the plate as he's applying it in that second video. Sheesh....

edit: I cringe when I come across a piano that has CA glue hardened on the plate. At least go the whole route and put the piano on its back.

And I have to say, applying CA to vertical pins that way, and seeing it on the video, only reinforces my belief that very little of the glue is actually making it to the pinblock. Rather, the pin is being glued to the bushing.

Loren D,I'm agree with your negative feelings about the use of the CA in this video. I also support you that CA does not penetrate into the hole pinblock. CA just glues a metal pin to the walls of bush