Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#2085620 - 05/20/13 08:01 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: plns]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: plns
I think a concert pianist would like his piano to be tuned ET and unisons sounding perfectly together for the ear.

You may not be thinking correctly. One cannot assume what concert pianists would like unless you are a concert pianist. The preferences are as varied as there are tuning temperaments.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#2085672 - 05/20/13 10:21 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2194
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
In my thirteen years tuning pianos for the Seattle Symphony-not one single pianist requested anything other than a solid, stable tuned, voiced, and regulated piano. In my sixteen years as head technician at the Seattle Steinway dealership- not one pianist requested anything other than the scenario my first sentence described.
Certainly there are pianist's interested by alternative tunings-but one CAN safely assume that unless they make the effort to establish the tuning specifications in advance of the event-solid, inharmonicity corrected equal temperament, with perfect as possible unisons is what they expect.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2085685 - 05/20/13 10:50 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Mr. McMorrow,

That seems to be the American viewpoint of "take what I give you and be happy." Some top level pianists might accept that attitude, while others do not. On the whole, I find more flexibility when working with European tuners.

Ever tune for Peter Serkin or his father?

To make an assumption about what concert pianists would prefer is very different than accepting what they are given.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2085704 - 05/20/13 11:35 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Mr. McMorrow,

That seems to be the American viewpoint of "take what I give you and be happy." Some top level pianists might accept that attitude, while others do not. On the whole, I find more flexibility when working with European tuners.

Ever tune for Peter Serkin or his father?

To make an assumption about what concert pianists would prefer is very different than accepting what they are given.

Excellent point. Could it be that, when, on tour, many pianists are willing to accept whatever is given them, especially for concerto work, just to get it over with. That is not to say the don't give their all to the music, just that the tuning is not foremost on their mind.

Top
#2085710 - 05/20/13 11:42 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21674
Loc: Oakland
I think that it is far more likely that they do not know the difference. I never hear of a pianist complaining that the temperament that another instrument that they are playing with is different, and yet it always is. People judge tuning by intervals, not by temperament. Equal temperament is a good compromise.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2085722 - 05/20/13 11:55 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: BDB]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: BDB
I think that it is far more likely that they do not know the difference. I never hear of a pianist complaining that the temperament that another instrument that they are playing with is different, and yet it always is. People judge tuning by intervals, not by temperament. Equal temperament is a good compromise.

All temperaments are a compromise. Intervals are what define a temperament, and the quality of the tuning is then assessed from that given compromise.

A highly skilled pianist can certainly hear the difference between an ET or a UT. We may not be able to name the temperament, but we sure can hear it!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2085726 - 05/20/13 12:00 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
In general, I agree with BDB and Marty. I play on many different UTs and quasi-ETs, but I couldn't name them if I heard them, or even if on comparison, if one was UT and the other ET when playing the same piece of music. Testing the piano for intervals, of course, is an easy way to tell what is what.

Top
#2085741 - 05/20/13 12:41 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1775
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
In my thirteen years tuning pianos for the Seattle Symphony-not one single pianist requested anything other than a solid, stable tuned, voiced, and regulated piano. In my sixteen years as head technician at the Seattle Steinway dealership- not one pianist requested anything other than the scenario my first sentence described.
Certainly there are pianist's interested by alternative tunings-but one CAN safely assume that unless they make the effort to establish the tuning specifications in advance of the event-solid, inharmonicity corrected equal temperament, with perfect as possible unisons is what they expect.


True of the concert pianists who have performed here as well - at least those whom I have knowledge of. In fact, very few made any requests at all, and if so it usually had to do with voicing to their particular taste. Only twice was I asked for a different pitch: once, at A441 and the other, to pull down to A435. The A441 request was for either a Steinway D or Baldwin SD10, which I accommodated. The A435 request was for an old Yamaha C, for a chamber program, which I refused to do.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

Top
#2085761 - 05/20/13 01:10 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mwm
In general, I agree with BDB and Marty. I play on many different UTs and quasi-ETs, but I couldn't name them if I heard them, or even if on comparison, if one was UT and the other ET when playing the same piece of music. Testing the piano for intervals, of course, is an easy way to tell what is what.


There are some that are fairly close. But there are some I can pretty much guarantee you could pick out after you've played on an instrument tuned that way.... even with some of the milder UTs.

For instance, tune a piano in the Hummel(sp?) "the Viennese" and try to play some darkest, most brooding Romantic music you know on it. Once you have had that experience, I guarantee you will be able to tell if a temperament is "the Viennese" or a close relative in the future.
(Edit: I'm sorry it took so long for me to do this edit. I had work to go to. I do not promise that playing this type of music on a piano tuned in the Viennese temperament will be a positive experience, only that it will be a memorable experience.)

Tune a piano in Moscow's EBPT of 1895 and then play it. In the future, though you may not know for certain that is is specifically the EBPT just by playing, you will at least be able to pick out that the temperament belongs to the Pythagorean family of temperaments.

Wells can be more challenging because there are so many and they can vary so much in strength.


Edited by daniokeeper (05/20/13 07:41 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#2085811 - 05/20/13 02:52 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Minnesota Marty]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Mr. McMorrow,

That seems to be the American viewpoint of "take what I give you and be happy." Some top level pianists might accept that attitude, while others do not. On the whole, I find more flexibility when working with European tuners.

Ever tune for Peter Serkin or his father?

To make an assumption about what concert pianists would prefer is very different than accepting what they are given.


C'mon Marty, where in the world have you been able to breeze into any concert of recital hall and demand the piano be retuned to a different temperament?

While i don't name drop, I have tuned for many of the same pianists whose name gets dropped on the cause of UT's. They never ask for unusual temperaments. Most of the time I'm tuning at another venue by the time they come to rehearse. We rarely meet them unless they're so damn nervous they run their practice time into our tuning slot.

I have read newspaper articles about them in reference to some temperament or other. There always seems to be some pushy tuner mentioned in the same article. Have you noticed? .....Wanna buy a bridge?.

If you really wanted an unusual temperament for a concert you would have to go through the hall management. They have experience of all sorts of loony requests (it is loony to them). Often it is pitch change that is requested, never temperament and I get asked about the feasibility sometimes if they seem willing to pay for the extra tunings. They always forget the cost of retunings back to normal afterwards.

Don't forget the audience and other musicians involved.

Compared to the thousands, if not millions attending concerts all over the world tonight and every night of the year and the thousands of musicians involved. On this forum there are approx. 6 advocates of UT.

Welcome to the real world.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2085829 - 05/20/13 03:31 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Though I did introduce a question re UTs and sterile sound into this thread and , I probably should not have done so. I was simply curious as to others' experience in this matter. The thread really is wandering off topic.

Back to the topic...

I think it would not be the mass-produced spinet or console is not the problem.

This becomes an issue on first tier large grand pianos. The window of acceptable unison tuning is much larger than on a lesser instrument with a lot of false beats and other issues. When unison on a great piano begins to drift even slightly, there is a (comparitively) large window of acceptability before the unison starts to sound sour.

With budget pianos, the unison must be absolutely dead on. As soon as the unison drifts even slightly, the unison becomes intolerable. With the first-tier piano, the acceptable unison is a zone; with a budget piano, the acceptable unison is similar to a mathematical point.


Edited by daniokeeper (05/20/13 03:33 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#2085845 - 05/20/13 03:46 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: daniokeeper]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 768
Loc: Seattle
I think there is some truth in the width of unison color that is or is not acceptable based on the quality of the instrument. In a different thread there was discussion on how false beating colors the unison, the immediate work-arounds as well as the more involved repair attempts. I think it goes without saying that a lower quality instrument will have more problems in that regard than others. An SKG 600 I deal with, I regularly brush up as the upper third of the piano becomes unbearable with the false beating added to minor out of tune unisons that would be much more tolerable on a well built and prepped instrument... One can only handle so many beats from a single note.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

Top
#2085860 - 05/20/13 04:17 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: rxd]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: rxd
Compared to the thousands, if not millions attending concerts all over the world tonight and every night of the year and the thousands of musicians involved. On this forum there are approx. 6 advocates of UT.

Welcome to the real world.

ET is the McDonalds of music.

Kees

Top
#2085901 - 05/20/13 05:02 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: DoelKees]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: rxd
Compared to the thousands, if not millions attending concerts all over the world tonight and every night of the year and the thousands of musicians involved. On this forum there are approx. 6 advocates of UT.

Welcome to the real world.

ET is the McDonalds of music.

Kees

While I refuse to eat at McDonalds, I am not sure if your statement is a positive or negative one. Could we not also say that Freedom is the McDonalds of Humanity?

Top
#2085905 - 05/20/13 05:08 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Much, if not most tonal, and some not so tonal music, sounds better in just intonation. Since just intonation is not presently available on an acoustic piano ( it IS available on DPs if you have purchased the software), there has to be a compromise, so which is it going to be, such that the unisions will sound good when tuned cleanly?

Top
#2085965 - 05/20/13 07:52 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: DoelKees]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Quote:
ET is the McDonalds of music.

Kees



(just one more O.T. moment...)

hahaha! Too funny!

You ought to copyright this and start selling bumper stickers. It would be a great conversation starter and you might even get some local media attention. smile
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#2086084 - 05/21/13 01:42 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2194
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I have tuned for Peter Serkin. He played the Brahms B flat.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2086117 - 05/21/13 04:30 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
UT are (also) a mean to hide unison that do not sing, they exite the brain the same it is when unison are nicely done.

So also an habit that can stop the tuner in his learning curve toward stable and nicely sounding unisons, under some defavorable circumstances
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2086148 - 05/21/13 07:30 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2144
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
In my thirteen years tuning pianos for the Seattle Symphony-not one single pianist requested anything other than a solid, stable tuned, voiced, and regulated piano. ...
Exactly! A wavering unison, a pedal squeak, a note or two that could stand some voicing, are the things that will get the attention of artists if they say anything at all.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

Top
#2086161 - 05/21/13 08:02 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3272
Loc: Madison, WI USA
The very idea that some people seemed to like a tuning in ET that had "ripened" better than a freshly tuned piano is what made me think that a piano perfectly tuned in ET was not the best sound. Believe me, it has happened. A lady complained that her tuning did not sound right on her Yamaha grand. When I went to check it, I could find no fault in the tuning, so I did nothing.

She called another local technician who has since become the most successful dealer in the area and hosts all of his salon concerts in non-equal temperaments and has done so for some 25 years. No artist ever asked him for ET.

When that technician checked my tuning, he said it was the most perfect ET he had ever heard and that the unisons were solid. So, he converted it to a Historical Temperament of some kind. The customer was delighted. When I saw her at one of those non-equal temperament events, she glared at me.

I suppose it depends on the area you are in but around here, UNLESS you can tune a piano in some cycle of 5ths based Well Temperament or Meantone, you are not the one they want. Time and again, people tell me that I have been retained as the technician because when I finish tuning the piano, it just sounds so much more harmonious and musical than when other people have done it and it seems to stay in tune so much longer too.

It seems to me that the ET only people are stuck with one dogmatic principle and are unwilling to learn anything else and therefore force the only way they know how to tune on each and every customer. The artists they serve don't ask for something specific because they have never been given the opportunity to experience anything but the one and only way the technicians who serve them know how to do.

Also, the track record of tunings which I encounter that have previously been tuned by ear is 9 out of 10 in Reverse Well rather than ET. Those Reverse Well tuning technicians all say the same thing as any of the ET only people do. They would swear on a stack of Bibles, a couple of Korans and a Torah to boot that what they do is ET but clearly, they don't even know what ET actually is. To them, ET is what THEY do.

It is no wonder to me why people don't like a piano tuned in Reverse Well very much until it ripens a bit.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2086175 - 05/21/13 09:08 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Of course Bill it is obvious that you would have a bias for yourself, and take the opportunity to promote yourself, as per usual. All that you have just said is just that, your opinion and one sided story.

Yes, you may write well, yes you have something to offer but there is a limit that once crossed over results in rantings and ravings.

Interestingly, we never hear about tuners who do not execute a WT accurately. Do they not exist?

If ET is called reverse well when it is not accurately executed, and is "so detestable", then what is an UT called when not accurately executed and what is it's resultant sound and affect on the discerning ear?
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2086197 - 05/21/13 10:27 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2194
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
What I find lacking in the UT's I hear, is the wonderful difference between major and minor. ET creates more tension by making the m3's a small as flat as possible and the M3's as sharp as possible. I don't think music such as Gershwin, Scriabin, MacDowel, Ravel, etc works as well without that effect.

It is well to remember that temperament is lowest on the priority list of pianist's regarding judgement of the state of a tuning.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2086214 - 05/21/13 10:51 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21674
Loc: Oakland
I have heard unequal temperaments that sound dull, possibly because the major thirds are too flat for my ears. Other times, you get intervals which are so far off they make me cringe. I can never tell whether they are a characteristic of the temperament, or just bad tuning.

If I point these things out, the advocates of unequal temperaments claim that I have not given the temperament a fair chance. So I just tune the discussions of unequal temperaments out. MacDonald's is not my favorite eatery, but I would rather eat there than eat out of the dumpster of discarded temperaments.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2086232 - 05/21/13 12:32 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: BDB]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: BDB
I have heard unequal temperaments that sound dull, possibly because the major thirds are too flat for my ears. Other times, you get intervals which are so far off they make me cringe. I can never tell whether they are a characteristic of the temperament, or just bad tuning.

If I point these things out, the advocates of unequal temperaments claim that I have not given the temperament a fair chance. So I just tune the discussions of unequal temperaments out. MacDonald's is not my favorite eatery, but I would rather eat there than eat out of the dumpster of discarded temperaments.

Once I got used to the pure thirds and low sevenths, which for me, are the hallmarks of most interesting UTs, I have come to prefer UTs on organs, harpsichords and clavichords. To me, it makes the 'tierce de picardie' much more of a release of tension than in ET, and , when straying far from the original key, wanting to get back to the calmness. However, I have never, other than my own poor attempt at EBVT III on my BB, played a piano tuned in anything other than what the tuner thought was ET, so, given the iH issues on a piano, which, in my ignorance, I think is important to the overall temperament, I can't form an opinion one way or the other.

Top
#2086310 - 05/21/13 02:56 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2449
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
In almost 30 years of tuning I have only heard compliments on the clarity and ET in-tuneness of my tunings. I have never heard a complaint. The odd time I have to explain to people who neglect their pianos for years that the newfound quietness is a byproduct of a good tuning compared to the busy sound they have got used to in their out of tune piano.

As Ed mentioned, the original precision of a tuning is perishable with time and begins the moment we step out the door. Almost every time I buy fruit fully ripe, some of it ends up spoiling before its eaten. Tuning a really clean tuning gives the customer the best bang for their buck as far as how long the piano can be used before its decided it needs another one.

I find the analogy of ET to MacDonalds quite misleading. I've eaten at some "super fine" restaurants where the main course is 4 square inches of something appropriate for an split hooved ungulate and an artists rendition of drizzled sauce is sqiggled over the plate....only to leave with a half empty tummy and the desire to sink my teeth into a juicy burger or rack of ribs washed down with some micro brewed red lager. ET has been mentioned by numerous top tier tuners (who also tune UT's) as the most difficult temperament to tune to perfection. The handful of techs who tune UT's out of the tens of thousands of tuners worldwide who don't, need to stop pretending its an accomplishment on a higher level, and realize its a shortcut to a lower one.


Edited by Emmery (05/21/13 02:59 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Top
#2086313 - 05/21/13 03:04 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1775
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Of piano temperaments old, strange and new.

In all of this discussion I try to remember that, "iron sharpeneth iron," but sometimes it can get maddening.

One of the most successful piano technicians - with a proven track record - used the most basic of temperaments. (Most today would define it as an amateur's method. See J Cree Fischer.) Armed with his simple temperament, for some 40 years he prepped performance pianos both hither and yon for scores of legendary concert pianists. The tech is long gone, as are most of the pianists he worked for. But his example isn't forgotten: Don't fix what isn't broken.

On the other hand, it must be recognized that times do change. If present-day professional pianists are asking us for something different, then by all means bring it to the table for discussion - e.g. how to either make it work or work better. Otherwise, some of what we do here is of such that made Mars Hill famous. And if that's what we want to do - well, it's a free country.

What of the amateurs - those who constitute the lion's share of our customer base? Instead of the tried and true, they may be asking for something different too. The decision as to whether or not to accommodate them is proprietary. Do we open our temperament book and ask: "Which one would you like this time, our #3 or #19?" We do so at our own peril. Best to have an exit strategy. If we do not, then I suppose we can talk about that too.


smile



Edited by bkw58 (05/21/13 03:05 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

Top
#2086327 - 05/21/13 03:30 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2449
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Bob the pre contrived exit strategy quite often can become the cause of a less than satisfying ET tuning. After all, if it doesn't measure up to the far stricter, quantative and refined checks and standards of ET, one can call it a UT, and still cash the cheque. That is, if one does not have a conscience.

I tune EBVT for only two customers who had enquired about it. I didn't really care about my own feelings towards it. I now carry 2 printed out sheets of the most complete aural tuning instructions and list of checks for both ET and for EBVT. One is a page and a half long, the other is 1/3 of a page; anyone care to guess which is which? LOL Show these to an enquiring customer and then tell them you have to charge the same for either tuning....people have enough sense to figure out where they get their moneys worth when its sitting right in front of them.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

Top
#2086343 - 05/21/13 03:51 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
This thread certainly has moved far from the idea of DOA unisons being clinical or sterile.

OT, but can you tell me how long it takes for a piano to settle down once you have moved it from one temperament to another?

Top
#2086458 - 05/21/13 09:26 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mwm
This thread certainly has moved far from the idea of DOA unisons being clinical or sterile.

OT, but can you tell me how long it takes for a piano to settle down once you have moved it from one temperament to another?


It would vary based on instrument quality and the venue.

But most importantly would probably be the amount the new temperament deviates from the old, whether going from ET to UT, or UT to ET, or UT to UT.

A 1/10 CM, for instance, could probably be about as doable as retuning to ET, considering the largest variations are only a few thousandths of a 1/2-step.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#2086477 - 05/21/13 10:20 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2194
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I think something else is going on here. When you tune a certain piano as perfectly as is possible it sounds "clinical". I assume you use clinical as I would "sterile" to describe a piano that sounds boring.

Just might not it have been the manufacturer/designers intent that the piano sound sterile when it is in tune?

I often find Grotrian, Petrof, Estonia, one Fazioli, and some others to have a less interesting sound than other grands. A perfect tuning exposes the true sound of a piano.


Edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT (05/21/13 10:20 PM)
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Digital Vs. Acoustic is apples and oranges so far
by harpon
10/25/14 08:40 PM
the sound of unrestored Erards
by Michael Sayers
10/25/14 08:34 PM
how best to match natural mahogany on plain wood case parts
by msks
10/25/14 08:26 PM
Heading to the junk pile...
by Emmery
10/25/14 07:39 PM
Piano make
by ali123
10/25/14 06:24 PM
Who's Online
116 registered (anamnesis, Almaviva, 36251, Alan_Dublin, angga888, 35 invisible), 1314 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76656 Members
42 Forums
158496 Topics
2327627 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission