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#2087137 - 05/23/13 01:55 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Glue Collar Worker]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7217
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Glue Collar Worker
Perhaps this thread just goes to show that the growing popularity of UT's is a natural backlash due to the prevalence of sterile, perfect, machine generated tunings.

That is my hypothesis, and as long as unbalance stay unnoticed during the music, I can accept a somewhat older tone.

But very often, at some point something heard is less pleasing, disturbing to me, and I do not get waht it may add to the music.

Then other solutions have been find mostly based on a search for purer intervals, in a high iH context.
And that cause some impossibility, as at some point the iH gives a correction to the frequencies heard and the all intervals enlarge , in absence of any added stretch.

Naturally, the tuners try to have less motion in the top spectras, when tuning, hence the searches for iH based solution, so the spectra can be quiter in the instrument when intervals at the double and triple octave are played

I believe that iH play also a role in tone projection. the change of pitch generated create a simile travel motion for the ear. it allows the pitch to be heard better from some distance as it does not slope down in pitch as much with distance.

have no idea of the levels of attenuation, but the pitch of soprano section heard at the back of the concert hall is lower.

An admitted theory say that iH maintain the justness of piano and make the tone less boring. (with levels as 0.7cts for A49)

Then , using only a partial to determine the pitch of the fundamental in double and triple octaves cannot be precise enough (hence the better results obtaines with multi partial ETD's)
But even with thoses, the theory that was explained to me is that the piano spectra itself is too inconsistent to be used with similar optimal results than what trained tuners obtain.

A thorough "spectral analysis" of every note of the instrument may be conducted prior to the tuning computation, then a "less bad" solution is looked at.

By being trained to recognise consonance) the aural tuner goes the same direction, with flaws due to the impossibility to us all the tests availeable.

SO the pattern we use is based on one or 2 octaves and the rest is done "musically" (in my opinion)

Listening to beat comparaison between fast beating intervals at 3 octaves range gives no guarantee of the clarity or acoustical justness perceived by the musician. We just use there "recipes" that are known to be working.










Edited by Olek (05/23/13 02:51 AM)
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#2087245 - 05/23/13 09:20 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 189
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I would like to understand what mechanism is operating to "change" the inharmonicity of a string when tuning? I don't know any that would produce that outcome.


Good question, Ed! I was wondering the same thing myself.
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Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

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#2087320 - 05/23/13 11:12 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7217
Loc: France
I would say that the more evident is the stiffening of backscale (and the string itself) as ih is influenced by tension and by the level of firmness its fixation.

May be what was told relates only with tension, in that case the the change is very little, for instance with 4 cts. Check it out on your favourite spreadsheet.

If the ih have less "obstacles" to fight, acoustically, (tuned couples of strings) may be it can be modified,

Ed Foote stated something important, which is that with a certain unison shape, the bridge is stiffened, (hence better energy transfer) , may be that are the strings that are stiffened, as a smooth road for the waves with minimal contrary interactions may change the elastic quality of the unison - the way it push back the hammer.

If there are for a time a lot of fight between waves certainly the wires can act erratically and they loose energy needed to send back tge hammer, as if they where less tight.


Edited by Olek (05/23/13 11:13 AM)
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#2087330 - 05/23/13 11:24 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I would like to understand what mechanism is operating to "change" the inharmonicity of a string when tuning? I don't know any that would produce that outcome.


Good question, Ed! I was wondering the same thing myself.

Before speculating on a mechanism it may be good to first check if the IH actually changes at all, which is easy to do: measure IH with, say, Tunelab five times, detune the string, and measure again 5 times. We repeat measurements to get an idea of the inaccuracy of the measurement.

Kees

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#2087445 - 05/23/13 02:05 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: DoelKees]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I would like to understand what mechanism is operating to "change" the inharmonicity of a string when tuning? I don't know any that would produce that outcome.


Good question, Ed! I was wondering the same thing myself.

Before speculating on a mechanism it may be good to first check if the IH actually changes at all, which is easy to do: measure IH with, say, Tunelab five times, detune the string, and measure again 5 times. We repeat measurements to get an idea of the inaccuracy of the measurement.
Kees


Doel, what exactly do you mean by "detune the string" as far as how much? My understanding is that if a string is off more than 10-20 cents from its intended pitch, it is a given that the iH will change. If I come across a piano that is out more than this, I typically correct the notes before I sample them in RCT. The users manual suggests this also.


Edited by Emmery (05/23/13 02:06 PM)
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#2087448 - 05/23/13 02:11 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7217
Loc: France
440>443 for instance.
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#2087534 - 05/23/13 04:44 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Emmery]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I would like to understand what mechanism is operating to "change" the inharmonicity of a string when tuning? I don't know any that would produce that outcome.


Good question, Ed! I was wondering the same thing myself.

Before speculating on a mechanism it may be good to first check if the IH actually changes at all, which is easy to do: measure IH with, say, Tunelab five times, detune the string, and measure again 5 times. We repeat measurements to get an idea of the inaccuracy of the measurement.
Kees


Doel, what exactly do you mean by "detune the string" as far as how much? My understanding is that if a string is off more than 10-20 cents from its intended pitch, it is a given that the iH will change. If I come across a piano that is out more than this, I typically correct the notes before I sample them in RCT. The users manual suggests this also.

OK, show the numbers then if you think it's "a given".

Kees

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#2087539 - 05/23/13 05:04 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: DoelKees]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I would like to understand what mechanism is operating to "change" the inharmonicity of a string when tuning? I don't know any that would produce that outcome.


Good question, Ed! I was wondering the same thing myself.

Before speculating on a mechanism it may be good to first check if the IH actually changes at all, which is easy to do: measure IH with, say, Tunelab five times, detune the string, and measure again 5 times. We repeat measurements to get an idea of the inaccuracy of the measurement.
Kees


Doel, what exactly do you mean by "detune the string" as far as how much? My understanding is that if a string is off more than 10-20 cents from its intended pitch, it is a given that the iH will change. If I come across a piano that is out more than this, I typically correct the notes before I sample them in RCT. The users manual suggests this also.

OK, show the numbers then if you think it's "a given".

Kees

Since you suggested the test, why don't YOU run the test in accordance with your methodology and report back to us with your results. That way, you wlll be assured that the results have not been biased. And, even if you don't have an EDT, download it free for the purposes of this test.

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#2087551 - 05/23/13 05:22 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I would like to understand what mechanism is operating to "change" the inharmonicity of a string when tuning? I don't know any that would produce that outcome.


Good question, Ed! I was wondering the same thing myself.

Before speculating on a mechanism it may be good to first check if the IH actually changes at all, which is easy to do: measure IH with, say, Tunelab five times, detune the string, and measure again 5 times. We repeat measurements to get an idea of the inaccuracy of the measurement.
Kees


Doel, what exactly do you mean by "detune the string" as far as how much? My understanding is that if a string is off more than 10-20 cents from its intended pitch, it is a given that the iH will change. If I come across a piano that is out more than this, I typically correct the notes before I sample them in RCT. The users manual suggests this also.

OK, show the numbers then if you think it's "a given".

Kees

Since you suggested the test, why don't YOU run the test in accordance with your methodology and report back to us with your results. That way, you wlll be assured that the results have not been biased. And, even if you don't have an EDT, download it free for the purposes of this test.

You are right.

With Tunelabs model of IH I get for C3 .175 +/- 0.005.
When I tune the string 100 cents flat I get 0.200 +/- 0.005.

So the change in IH is .025 per whole tone. Withing Tunelabs inharmonicity model this amounts to for example a shift of 0.4 cents for the 4th partial. If the note was tuned 10 cents flat this would be a shift of 0.04 cent, for example.

Kees

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#2087553 - 05/23/13 05:26 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
WOW! - Op-Art in a tech forum.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2087557 - 05/23/13 05:31 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: DoelKees]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Doelkees: Excellent. Thanks for the quick response.
I think you meant an iH delta of .025 per semi-tone, n'est-ce pas?


Edited by Mwm (05/23/13 05:42 PM)

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#2087561 - 05/23/13 05:33 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7217
Loc: France
The theoretical values are : less half a tone = -12% iH

Seem to agree with the numbers you find.

Changing pitch a little strong (444 Hz) show a very small lowering, but audibly the difference in tone quality is evident.


Edited by Olek (05/23/13 05:38 PM)
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2087604 - 05/23/13 07:26 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
.025 per semitone, indeed. And I get 11% for the theoretical value.

Kees

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#2087623 - 05/23/13 08:27 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Olek]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1884
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I have never heard the inharmonicity change while tuning. The tension changes we make while tuning are a thousand fold or more below what would appreciably change the frequency relations amongst the partials. Unison coupling CAN change the energy distribution (Olek I think you use the term "spectra' for this), amongst the partials.
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#2087647 - 05/23/13 09:22 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
It would seem that the amount of stretch one chooses to use, in the upper octaves particularly, would affect the iH, which would in turn affect the required stretch to make an effective tuning. This iterative process would, in theory, converge on an optimal stretch for a given temperament. I would argue therefore in this case, that the stretch used would be different for different temperaments.

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#2087652 - 05/23/13 09:35 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 189
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I have never heard the inharmonicity change while tuning. The tension changes we make while tuning are a thousand fold or more below what would appreciably change the frequency relations amongst the partials...


Originally Posted By: Mwm
It would seem that the amount of stretch one chooses to use, in the upper octaves particularly, would affect the iH, which would in turn affect the required stretch to make an effective tuning. This iterative process would, in theory, converge on an optimal stretch for a given temperament. I would argue therefore in this case, that the stretch used would be different for different temperaments.


Aren't these two statements saying the opposite of one another?

This is what I love about piano technology...

So much more still left to be discovered.
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Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

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#2087655 - 05/23/13 09:43 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I have never heard the inharmonicity change while tuning. The tension changes we make while tuning are a thousand fold or more below what would appreciably change the frequency relations amongst the partials...


Originally Posted By: Mwm
It would seem that the amount of stretch one chooses to use, in the upper octaves particularly, would affect the iH, which would in turn affect the required stretch to make an effective tuning. This iterative process would, in theory, converge on an optimal stretch for a given temperament. I would argue therefore in this case, that the stretch used would be different for different temperaments.


Aren't these two statements saying the opposite of one another?

This is what I love about piano technology...

So much more still left to be discovered.

Well, DoelKees' test implies that iH changes with a change in tension (all other variables unchanged), and Isaac has anecdotal evidence of the same result. It would seem logical, therefore that a well tuned piano will exhibit different iH across its compass than an out of tune piano, and it would seem wise to do several passes in order to converge on the best overall sound.

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#2087678 - 05/23/13 10:39 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Minnesota Marty]
plns Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 59
That's true that some pianists like their pianos tuned a certain way but many tuners are called upon to tune a piano without an interview with the pianist. That tuner would be wise to tune the piano to ET with perfect unisons. Aren't we splicing hairs here on my point though?

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#2087683 - 05/23/13 10:47 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1653
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I have never heard the inharmonicity change while tuning. The tension changes we make while tuning are a thousand fold or more below what would appreciably change the frequency relations amongst the partials...


Originally Posted By: Mwm
It would seem that the amount of stretch one chooses to use, in the upper octaves particularly, would affect the iH, which would in turn affect the required stretch to make an effective tuning. This iterative process would, in theory, converge on an optimal stretch for a given temperament. I would argue therefore in this case, that the stretch used would be different for different temperaments.


Aren't these two statements saying the opposite of one another?

This is what I love about piano technology...

So much more still left to be discovered.

Well, DoelKees' test implies that iH changes with a change in tension (all other variables unchanged), and Isaac has anecdotal evidence of the same result. It would seem logical, therefore that a well tuned piano will exhibit different iH across its compass than an out of tune piano, and it would seem wise to do several passes in order to converge on the best overall sound.

I don't think you appreciate the smallness of the effects involved.

Kees

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#2087696 - 05/23/13 11:29 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1884
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
So if my assumption that very fine tuning in the A440 area accuracy is less than 0.5cent difference between strings that sound perfectly in tune-that is a .025cent tolerance. That makes the inharmonicity difference between the perfectly tuned string and the nearly perfectly tuned string 0.00025cent. I can't hear that! And no one else can either.
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#2087699 - 05/23/13 11:39 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3184
Loc: Madison, WI USA
It has long been suggested that when using a calculated program, to recalculate after a pitch correction. I have noted different values upon recalculating sometimes, sometimes not. I am still one that believes that the inharmonicity that a piano has depends upon the diameter of the wire, the speaking length and the pitch. If the pitch is altered significantly, then the inharmonicity may change accordingly. Whatever temperament may be used is too small of a difference to be significant. That much makes sense. Otherwise, the inharmonicity does not change significantly, only the readings of it may.

On another note, I was listening to the recording I made on March 9 in my car yesterday. With the way I had the tone set mostly for talk radio, (+2 treble, -2 bass and +2 front and -2 rear speakers), I had concentrated so much on pure unisons and with the tone controls set the way I had them, the compression of the final audio product and the temperament that was so maxed out equalized, the piano sounded more like a digital piano than a real one!

It was truly a case of a piano that sounded so in tune that it was terrible!
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Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2087704 - 05/23/13 11:53 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 189
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
That makes the inharmonicity difference between the perfectly tuned string and the nearly perfectly tuned string 0.00025cent. I can't hear that! And no one else can either.

Who's going to break this news to Isaac?
_________________________
Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

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#2087750 - 05/24/13 02:35 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7217
Loc: France

x



Edited by Olek (05/24/13 02:38 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2087753 - 05/24/13 02:46 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7217
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
So if my assumption that very fine tuning in the A440 area accuracy is less than 0.5cent difference between strings that sound perfectly in tune-that is a .025cent tolerance. That makes the inharmonicity difference between the perfectly tuned string and the nearly perfectly tuned string 0.00025cent. I can't hear that! And no one else can either.


Nobody told that this was heard as an inharmonicity change. (in unison)
I hear a small straightening of the spectra when the piano is tuned high pitched, but saying I hear an iH change there is , I admit exaggerated, as the power output is larger too.

What I mean is that iH is a part of tone quality, that it is not directly perceived, but at last in its effect to the spectra.

Pianos tuned lower than their pitch have a less well defined spectra, may be also for iH reasons.

Scaling is supposed to provide a smooth slant of iH, but many old scales do not.
Also the last treble section is often using a different octave progression, hence a differnt iH if the point is not corrected.
That way we find pianos that have "inverted" iH in the high treble (inverted in regard of the progression from mediums)
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2087758 - 05/24/13 03:06 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7217
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
It has long been suggested that when using a calculated program, to recalculate after a pitch correction. I have noted different values upon recalculating sometimes, sometimes not. I am still one that believes that the inharmonicity that a piano has depends upon the diameter of the wire, the speaking length and the pitch. If the pitch is altered significantly, then the inharmonicity may change accordingly. Whatever temperament may be used is too small of a difference to be significant. That much makes sense. Otherwise, the inharmonicity does not change significantly, only the readings of it may.

On another note, I was listening to the recording I made on March 9 in my car yesterday. With the way I had the tone set mostly for talk radio, (+2 treble, -2 bass and +2 front and -2 rear speakers), I had concentrated so much on pure unisons and with the tone controls set the way I had them, the compression of the final audio product and the temperament that was so maxed out equalized, the piano sounded more like a digital piano than a real one!

It was truly a case of a piano that sounded so in tune that it was terrible!


It happened me for a long time when I was using ETD, there is a tendency to make the tone "purer " and purer.

That is why I say we need a slighly different way of apprehending the tone, so to have it as pure as possible, without breaking the tone building"

One have to learn to be able to control the acoustical coupling at partials level (the iH part of the tone" vs the coupling at fundamental level, to keep the control on his job.

This was a huge problem when I was tuning in concert.

I noticed that your unison are sounding way different than some years before, they share a "construction" .

But you could deal with tone projection more than with beat fighting, at some point the energy provided by the strings follows its own path and it is useless to try to push it too much where it does not want to go.

It is not a question of leaving some sort of very slow beat, not at all, this is the way the energy is parsed, how long doe sit take to have anything put at its preferred loctation.

I seem to see that many tuners here believe that we tune some kind of moaning unison in order to have some "life" in the tone.
It have nothing to do with that.

I even feel that the sooner the tone is regulated after the initial hammer "crash" the more stable the tone is in the long run (while I may try to obtain a more or less rounded tone by enlarging the delay the crash take to stabilize in musical tone)

In the end the quality of tone that is changing the most is the tone projection, the ability to fulfill the room and to be heard with some clarity at some distance.

If the tone is not "build" that way, chances are the tuners will tend to rely on hammer dope and hardening, to get some support of the top spectra that is left too inconsistent if not.

The way the pianist use the piano makes a huge differnce of course, I remind a piano tuned for a concert.
In those times I was often anxiously wondering if I did make a good tone construction, as I noticed that with ear fatigue I had a tendency to clean so much the spectra it was getting lifeless at some point (and I could not really analyse that clearly)

The first pianist have a sort of hard touch and the piano make her no gift at all. All the nervous stress was heard, and I thought I had totally missed the tuning, it almost sounded false for so much unnatural precision.
Then another pianist played, with a better touch and more talk (more things to say with the music)

The piano then sounded bright but neutral and well tuned. no more roughness perceived.
But in that case he had to use more the sustain pedal he would if the tone had been less hard.

The difference between and optimal strong tone and a hard very clean tone is in the end relatively large.

One have to cool his ears to listen, and let the piano guide him.
The ETD are almost a difficulty in that context, anyway for me it was.

When tuning on stage, or in a romm with enough reverberation, I like to hear how the tone returns from the walls.

But when it is not possible being able to analyse the unison is a big help.

That said, only pianos with a sufficient level of iH allow to be at ease mastering the tone. Low iH pianos oblige you to straighten the tone, very little rounding of the fundamental is possible.










Edited by Olek (05/24/13 03:12 AM)
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#2087759 - 05/24/13 03:16 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7217
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
That makes the inharmonicity difference between the perfectly tuned string and the nearly perfectly tuned string 0.00025cent. I can't hear that! And no one else can either.

Who's going to break this news to Isaac?


The iH differnce is absolutely not perceived in the unison, I do not understand what you mean there.
Pitch differnces in "almost perfectly tuned (make me smile) string may vary from 0.4 to 2 cts.
Very difficult to "measure" with ETD due to the coupling from the other strings, and the up and down motions of pitch in time.

Ih is used to obtain more power or more sustain, that's all.

as with the Bluethner and the aliquot 4th string, that is there to cause trouble to the unison.
That way it is colored.
If the ballast string was tuned perfectly straight with the others, it would just rob energy from them.

That subject is sensitive as no tuner want to be accused of making "Honky tonk tunings" that are often the sign of poor pin setting/stabilisation.





Edited by Olek (05/24/13 03:20 AM)
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#2087787 - 05/24/13 06:33 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Also in my opinion, as Isaac reports and suggests, it won't be only tuning... meaning that correct frequencies (which would make a piano sound "in tune") should go along with tone quality (read color) and energy circulation (resonance).

Think of a singer: he/she might be "perfectly" in tune and yet sound terrible... Pro-singers normally depart from an amateur approach and start a process that goes far beyond their (perhaps natural) talent, they will learn how to manage their spectral content and their own flows of energy, so I do not think we can separate these three issues, again pitch, color and energy: taken individually, every single issue might reduce performances, but these issues all together can achieve the best performance.

Then I too would suggest to evaluate iH fluctuations (approximations) and influence also in consideration of other factors that apparently contribute to shaping the tone and making energy flow, all factors being related: active-pin//active pin-block//string-3-lenths-tensions//loads//and all the other details that produce the sound, hammers and dynamics of the piano action.

From the field: I recently tuned a baby-G for a colleague, so that in real time he could follow his ETD and record the job. I can confirm that the ETD was not sensible to some variations, both on single string's pitch and unisons, that for my ear would be determinant. To be clear, in order to manage and control partials, I - surely like others - will have to take into account infinitesimal variations that were far beyond the performance of that ETD, perhaps differences that we believe to be "...too small of a difference to be significant".

In this sense, I would not take the worse of what theory, maths and "science" can offer, for instance I would not confuse ETDs figures, how exact they seem to be, with the exactitude needed and that we are able to achieve aurally.

Regards, a.c.
.
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#2087793 - 05/24/13 06:47 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 189
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I'm guessing this will become a lively thread, which should be fun. smile

Loren's prediction in the original post seems to have become true. I'm finding this discussion quite entertaining.
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#2087797 - 05/24/13 07:03 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I'm guessing this will become a lively thread, which should be fun. smile

Loren's prediction in the original post seems to have become true. I'm finding this discussion quite entertaining.


Can I call 'em or what?! laugh
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#2087798 - 05/24/13 07:11 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: DoelKees]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I have never heard the inharmonicity change while tuning. The tension changes we make while tuning are a thousand fold or more below what would appreciably change the frequency relations amongst the partials...


Originally Posted By: Mwm
It would seem that the amount of stretch one chooses to use, in the upper octaves particularly, would affect the iH, which would in turn affect the required stretch to make an effective tuning. This iterative process would, in theory, converge on an optimal stretch for a given temperament. I would argue therefore in this case, that the stretch used would be different for different temperaments.


Aren't these two statements saying the opposite of one another?

This is what I love about piano technology...

So much more still left to be discovered.

Well, DoelKees' test implies that iH changes with a change in tension (all other variables unchanged), and Isaac has anecdotal evidence of the same result. It would seem logical, therefore that a well tuned piano will exhibit different iH across its compass than an out of tune piano, and it would seem wise to do several passes in order to converge on the best overall sound.

I don't think you appreciate the smallness of the effects involved.

Kees

I do appreciate the smallness. However, I am a literalist, and if a claim is made that iH doesn't change with a small pitch change, and then is found in fact to do so, I am interested in that, regardless of the order of magnitude. Thanks again for your test.

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