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These are all truly superb pianos capable of creating unbelievably beautiful sounds. Each has its own personality, and my personal opinion is that Fazioli has the best action, Steingraeber the best sustain, Hamburg Steinway the richest harmonics, and Bosendorfer (Imperial) the deepest, fattest bass register. Lots of other more subtle differences, but at the end of the day they all are heavenly to play and enjoy.

I would have a hard enough time choosing which I like best between two Steinway Bs or two Steingraeber 212s. There is so much subtle variation between models even of the same line that realistically it's impossible to objectively and intelligently compare something as vast and broad as two different lines of pianos.

Trying to decide between two pianos of the same model would be harder because they are more similar than they are different. That means you are looking at minute details of the sound and touch to determine which one you prefer.

Comparing two pianos of different brand and construction is a more straight forward task because the points of difference are immediately apparent - although of course it is quite possible to end up with a list of pros and cons for each and find it hard to split them, in the end. In that case it would generally depend on what sort of music you will want to play on it.

Time for hearing aids...they are quite sophisticated now.

Dear Ando;

What you say is quite right.

But just try finding any two new American Steinways, of any size, that are anything alike. It might be possible to find two that are equally horrible, but they will still be very different.

Of course, in the concert department pool, things are much better. There are always some fine Ds there.

However, the last time I played a nice piano at Steinway Hall from amongst those for sale, the piano in question was a used Hamburg A that was there on consignment.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

And how many years ago was that?

I must admit Karl, I really have no idea about the NY Steinways and their variability. In Australia I've only ever seen and played Hamburgs. I daresay there are some NY's coming into Oz somewhere, but it seems the Steinway they want to market here is the European one.

Yes, I would like to know, also. While Steinway isn't exactly my favorite, the company's latest offerings are quite likable, particularly with regard to their actions, which seem to be consistently on the light side. I like this.

For someone who has travelled many times to German manufacturers and each time found a number of outstanding pianos when there, general statements like some of the above unfortunately don't make that much sense.

These makers are far too individual and variable and the factor of unpredictablility for each single model is too great.

Outstanding specimen can be found everywhere and often at different times.

Who the finest of them is can change as quick as the wind.

Which seems to change from visit to visit and year to year.

Congratulations to all who have a ready made answer...

Norbert

Norbert

How many piano makers should one visit in Germany to catch up with the wind?

Steingraeber, Sauter, Pfeiffer ...

You make a good point. I suppose a better way to say what I was trying to say is that, for me, it's easier to compare a piano to my own set of ideals of what makes a good instrument than it is to compare a piano to another piano.

If comparing piano makes in some general way was really so impossible then half the discussion on this forum, literally tens of thousands of posts, would be quite meaningless. So would the Piano Buyer(but, of course, almost everyone find that book extremely useful).

On behalf of the staff....Thanks!

Oh, and the reason that so many people like Steingraeber....

They make one of the world's finest pianos.

When it comes to world's top makers it's in the end more the artist expressing the music than the instrument itself.

A good cowboy rides on the worst of horses and on good ones of course "perfectly" - exactly the way he wants the horse to go.

You can discuss a number of high end kitchen tools, pots and pans but it's always the chef who actually cooks the meal.

And the cook is "you" - the player.

Small detail perhaps worth keeping in mind...

Norbert

Oh there's a surprise - another red-herring argument from PloverUS...

Where did I say anything about impossible? Work on your comprehension please, for all our sakes.

Hey Norbert,

You're totally right there, and I think that when it comes to the top makes it's just a matter of taste more than quality.

Re the point about the cook - that's fine but if the oven doesn't work.... ;-)

It's OK I'm just being cantankerous.

I think there's a good deal of snobbery in this: Steingraeber is a tiny manufacturer from a small but mythical german city (Wagner's Bayreuth), the brand is little known or even completely unknown outside of a small circle of aficionados, there's a definite cool factor to preferring an obscure brand to the world's most famous one.

This being said, Steingraeber makes wonderful pianos, without any question some of the best in the world. In Europe, by the way, they are about 10% cheaper than Steinways (Hamburg, of course), and Boesendorfer, Fazioli, and Bechsteins, which all cost about the same price.

But to me comparing these pianos, and the Steingraeber and the Steinway in particular, really doesn't make any sense at all, they are so different. Steinways have a rich, complex, earthy, wooden sound no other piano has. Steingraeber, on the other hand, are on the opposite side of the tonal spectrum, a very pure, singing sound, chime and clarinet-like sound that some could find a little bland, or even hollow. They also have a very peculiar action, it's very light but extremely precise. It's a completely different sensation at first, but very easy to adapt too. I think, if I remember well, that this is a specific Steingraeber design, and it sets these pianos apart not only from the Steinway, but from all other brands.

I once completely fell in love of a barely used Steingraeber 205 at a great price, and was decided to buy it, until I found a 1950 Steinway D at an even cheaper price (Ironically this Steinway has a very round pure sound that is more reminescent of the Steingraeber than more recent Steinways), a temptation I couldn't resist. I then considered for a while to exchange my Model B for the Steingraeber, but it's such a lovely piano too...

At this level, it really boils down to taste and the repertoire you play on them. I would not play the same music on both pianos, as a jazz pianist I would improvise and voice differently, as a classical pianist, I would prefer the Steingraeber for Mozart and Schumann, maybe Ravel and possibly Bach, but wouldn't like it at all in Chopin or Bartok, or late Beethoven. Generally, the Steingraeber lacks the dimension of a percussion instrument that's also part of the pianos spectrum, and that Steinway does so well (this is because the Steinway emphasizes the dissonant harmonics more while the Steingraeber emphasizes the fundamental, consonant ones, almost like a square wave). The Steingraeber is more of a vocal instrument than a percussion one. The Steinway really has all those dimensions wrapped up in one.

But of course, in a perfect world, I would love to have a Steinway, a Steingraber and a Bösendorfer in the same room, in my opinion these three pianos pretty much give you all the nuances and colors you could need (While the Fazioli is also very good, and possibly the best of the lot, in my opinion it doesn't have such an unique personality and sound as those three, it's more of a synthesis).

In an ideal world, as you say, we'd all have different instruments available to us for different repertoire. However, many times I turn up to a venue with a programme prepared, and I have to play what's there no matter what.

Only once did I have to change my (entire!) programme, because the piano was just too bad to cope with what I'd prepared.

I suppose, if every piano I played on was a slightly under par New York Steinway, then I'd be better off than I am now where it might be a 100 year old no name baby grand, a clapped out Bechstein, or a Young Chang with action centres that make you need to play like Supergran. (80s TV character.....)

Well yes, of course, there was a part of irony in my "perfect world" quote, meaning we're very well off with whatever of these great pianos.

I believe Andras Schiff made a series of Beethoven sonatas with both a Steinway D and a Boesendorfer on stage, switching between the two depending on the sonata.

As a jazz pianist, we don't have this problem so much, because we simply will change our playing according to the pianos sound and action (say more percussive or more lyrical depending on the sound, or more sparse or more virtuoso depending on the action).

I remember opening for Michel Petrucciani at various festivals in France when I was in my early twenties. The pianos were always Hamburg Steinway D's, but at the first gig, it was a truly uninspiring, clumsy, inexpressive and cold instrument, a real dog as sometimes even Hamburg makes. I played a horrible set, I just couldn't connect to the instrument, and felt so embarrassed. But then Michel also played a very mediocre set, and I thought "is this what all the fuss is about ?". At the next gig, there was a great Steinway, I played a lot better, and Michel just blew my socks off....(he also played for a much longer time, clearly enjoying himself which he didn't the first time".

So this pretty much happens to everybody, and at every level....

Classical pianists do some adapting to the action too - or at least, they should.

Being in Paris have you played any of the new Pleyels?