Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
113 registered (allakart, accordeur, A Guy, 36251, Alan Cyr, Abby Pianoman, 31 invisible), 1435 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 5 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#2087806 - 05/24/13 07:44 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I have never heard the inharmonicity change while tuning. The tension changes we make while tuning are a thousand fold or more below what would appreciably change the frequency relations amongst the partials. Unison coupling CAN change the energy distribution (Olek I think you use the term "spectra' for this), amongst the partials.

Yes I doubt the eventual small iH difference due to more tension is not really interfering a lot in tone.

However when tuning if we parse more energy for the fundamental than for the partials,may result a change tht could be measured (on 2 strings) as a different iH.

The iH in the end make the pitch of a note float, or evolve more or less in time.
The tuner always decide at what moment in sustain he really tunes.

As we need that tge strings have yet enough energy stored when we tune so it will move more easily on bearing points, the choice of that moment create small pitch variations between tuners. That should be interesting to experience.

I tune (am sure of the wanted pitch) generally before the ETD display have stabilized , one of the results of using one is to make a late listening.
The prompt sound provide a precise pitch impression, then the sustain seem to be colored by that first sound, but may differ(or not) slightly, pitch wise.

For instance to tune an octave I take in account the quality of the coupling immediately when a lot of energy is there that can show me well if the other note reacts well. Then I listen to the rest, high spectra couple. As for an unison in the end...
Waiting for the ETD is disturbing. I tend to tune first, then see if we agree.
Then small deviations we see tend to be corrected at the exoense of the initial energy flow, and this can be misleading.
Particularly as it can be noticed that optimal clarity incluse a precise tone during the attack. That "open" to a nice parsing in the spectra.


Edited by Olek (05/24/13 07:46 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#2087809 - 05/24/13 07:53 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Here is a reference on inharmonicity from the Verituner Manual, © 2012 JWS

"Inharmonicity varies with pitch on the same string

The inharmonicity can vary slightly for a single string as its pitch is changed. This can be a problem when tuning a piano which is far out of tune at the start. To see this, I show below the inharmonicity for a single A4 string as a function of its frequency.

Offset (in cents) Fundamental B value

0 439.955 0.000749032
-10 437.445 0.000758101
-20 434.805 0.000770484
-30 432.353 0.000775297
-40 429.717 0.000789170
-50 427.322 0.000801439

With a 50 cent starting offset: The B value changes from 0.000749032 to 0.000801439, which represents a change in the frequency of partial f4 from 1769.2 to 1769.9 Hz (or 0.7 cents), and for f6 from 2673.6 to 2675.9 (1.5 cents).

For a 20 cent deviation: The B value changes from 0.000749032 to 0.000770484, which changes f4 from 1769.2 to 1769.5 Hz (or 0.3 cents), and f6 from 2673.6 to 2674.6 (0.65 cents). "

My point is that, even for small changes in overall pitch of the piano, the iH changes enough to cause audible differences in the upper partials, especially when one tunes beatless unisons.

Top
#2087835 - 05/24/13 09:04 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Also in my opinion, as Isaac reports and suggests, it won't be only tuning... meaning that correct frequencies (which would make a piano sound "in tune") should go along with tone quality (read color) and energy circulation (resonance).

Think of a singer: he/she might be "perfectly" in tune and yet sound terrible... Pro-singers normally depart from an amateur approach and start a process that goes far beyond their (perhaps natural) talent, they will learn how to manage their spectral content and their own flows of energy, so I do not think we can separate these three issues, again pitch, color and energy: taken individually, every single issue might reduce performances, but these issues all together can achieve the best performance.

Then I too would suggest to evaluate iH fluctuations (approximations) and influence also in consideration of other factors that apparently contribute to shaping the tone and making energy flow, all factors being related: active-pin//active pin-block//string-3-lenths-tensions//loads//and all the other details that produce the sound, hammers and dynamics of the piano action.

From the field: I recently tuned a baby-G for a colleague, so that in real time he could follow his ETD and record the job. I can confirm that the ETD was not sensible to some variations, both on single string's pitch and unisons, that for my ear would be determinant. To be clear, in order to manage and control partials, I - surely like others - will have to take into account infinitesimal variations that were far beyond the performance of that ETD, perhaps differences that we believe to be "...too small of a difference to be significant".

In this sense, I would not take the worse of what theory, maths and "science" can offer, for instance I would not confuse ETDs figures, how exact they seem to be, with the exactitude needed and that we are able to achieve aurally.

Regards, a.c.
.

Originally Posted By: Mwm
[/quote]
I do appreciate the smallness. However, I am a literalist, and if a claim is made that iH doesn't change with a small pitch change, and then is found in fact to do so, I am interested in that, regardless of the order of magnitude. Thanks again for your test.


Hi Mwm,

You may like to add an article to your open-source library, look for:

Fred Lieberman, WORKING WITH CENTS: A SURVEY

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2087855 - 05/24/13 09:35 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: alfredo capurso]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Thanks Alfredo. Just read the article. I wonder what the accuracy of the Rollingball.com charts is?

Top
#2087868 - 05/24/13 09:50 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 208
Loc: Massachusetts
Is this for real?

One incomprehensible post...

followed by a post that draws an incorrect conclusion from the evidence it cites...

followed by a post containing suggested reading, the contents of which indicate how to calculate cents with nomograms, log tables, or a slide rule.
_________________________
Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

Top
#2087874 - 05/24/13 10:06 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Is this for real?

One incomprehensible post...

followed by a post that draws an incorrect conclusion from the evidence it cites...

followed by a post containing suggested reading, the contents of which indicate how to calculate cents with nomograms, log tables, or a slide rule.


We await anxiously for you participation then. .. Being scientific and all.

Hopefully tuners understand what we are talking of there.

In fact since a few years a few beginner tuners used some of thos point, and I consider that helped them and they may have avoided a certain number of blind searches, year after year, to "refine their unison" as it happens in the learning curve for most tuners.

That said, due to the amount of mud actually throwed to the ears of the public, it is no surprise that it begin to be difficult to shape its musical ear and taste naturally.

The generation is exposed to supermarket music since early ages, in fact I find admirable that some keep some tonal references.

Many, when it comes to piano tuning, only "tune the fundamental" and stop lustenibg.

It is mnediately noticed. And a little desesperating, but the few that get it are a good recompense ...
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2087887 - 05/24/13 10:22 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Is this for real?

One incomprehensible post...

followed by a post that draws an incorrect conclusion from the evidence it cites...

followed by a post containing suggested reading, the contents of which indicate how to calculate cents with nomograms, log tables, or a slide rule.


Hi Chris,

In order to be helpful in correcting the misapprehensions to which you allude, could you be more specific in your criticism and provide a more accurate response to the query regarding changes in iH with a change in string tension as a result of a pitch change?

Thanks.

Top
#2087893 - 05/24/13 10:37 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Is this for real?

One incomprehensible post...

followed by a post that draws an incorrect conclusion from the evidence it cites...

followed by a post containing suggested reading, the contents of which indicate how to calculate cents with nomograms, log tables, or a slide rule.


We await anxiously for you participation then. .. Being scientific and all.

Hopefully tuners understand what we are talking of there.

In fact since a few years a few beginner tuners used some of thos point, and I consider that helped them and they may have avoided a certain number of blind searches, year after year, to "refine their unison" as it happens in the learning curve for most tuners.

That said, due to the amount of mud actually throwed to the ears of the public, it is no surprise that it begin to be difficult to shape its musical ear and taste naturally.

The generation is exposed to supermarket music since early ages, in fact I find admirable that some keep some tonal references.

Many, when it comes to piano tuning, only "tune the fundamental" and stop listening.

It is immediately noticed. And a little desesperating, but the few that get it are a good recompense ...



Edited by Olek (05/24/13 10:41 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2087905 - 05/24/13 10:54 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Here is a reference on inharmonicity from the Verituner Manual, © 2012 JWS

"Inharmonicity varies with pitch on the same string

The inharmonicity can vary slightly for a single string as its pitch is changed. This can be a problem when tuning a piano which is far out of tune at the start. To see this, I show below the inharmonicity for a single A4 string as a function of its frequency.

Offset (in cents) Fundamental B value

0 439.955 0.000749032
-10 437.445 0.000758101
-20 434.805 0.000770484
-30 432.353 0.000775297
-40 429.717 0.000789170
-50 427.322 0.000801439

With a 50 cent starting offset: The B value changes from 0.000749032 to 0.000801439, which represents a change in the frequency of partial f4 from 1769.2 to 1769.9 Hz (or 0.7 cents), and for f6 from 2673.6 to 2675.9 (1.5 cents).

For a 20 cent deviation: The B value changes from 0.000749032 to 0.000770484, which changes f4 from 1769.2 to 1769.5 Hz (or 0.3 cents), and f6 from 2673.6 to 2674.6 (0.65 cents). "

My point is that, even for small changes in overall pitch of the piano, the iH changes enough to cause audible differences in the upper partials, especially when one tunes beatless unisons.


Not wanting to argue specifically, but in the end iH is a result from string stretch under tension, so certainly a clearer tone is heard, but the mechanical behaviour of the string is changed too, its energy is better transmitted. There is a (small) part of iH that is due to the amount of resiliency of the bridge/backscale, so justness wise I suppose there is a limited effect but tonally it is large.

Anyway for instance tuning a piano at 415hz 435 or a tension it was not intended for is not helping the instrument .
Old strings get hard and stiff , tension may help them to gain a minimal resiliency and to tone better.

I had experiences with soft strings that gave not enough iH to me, unless they are used with low tensile stress. We are used to iH, sometime too much probably.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2087923 - 05/24/13 11:28 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2348
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
The portion of the piano scale with the highest IH is the treble. From note 55 or so on up there is so little energy at even the 2P so as to render the IH differences amongst unison strings inaudible compared to the false beating that is almost always present in that portion of the compass in some amount.

The data you present prove that when doing a fine tuning, IH does not change in an audible amount or even a measurable amount. The thread is about a tuning that sounds too "in tune".

In the wound strings there are often IH differences amongst unison strings and they cannot be reconciled by unison technique.

I maintain that the effect the OP notices is a function of the instruments design and not the result of tuning style.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

Top
#2087929 - 05/24/13 11:37 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
I haven't been following this discussion too much, but today I skimmed through and thought I'd add a bit about ETD inharmonicity. There has long been reported different FAC numbers from college techs returning to the same instrument different times of the year...

Now we have a tunelab test that seems to indicate another platform measuring differently depending on pitch.

I did some tests with Dave Carpenter (verituner) a few years after the Verituner was in production to see if we could force that platform to measure differently based on pitch. We de-tuned a piano string in steps down to around -80cents and couldn't see any difference on that machine (or any more difference than between multiple tests at pitch). He had a unit that was able to show the raw data that the machine collected.

This was only one string, so it didn't test the whole piano being at a different pitch, nor did it test the possibility that a change in humidity might be influencing the entire system...
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#2087948 - 05/24/13 12:07 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
The portion of the piano scale with the highest IH is the treble. From note 55 or so on up there is so little energy at even the 2P so as to render the IH differences amongst unison strings inaudible compared to the false beating that is almost always present in that portion of the compass in some amount.

The data you present prove that when doing a fine tuning, IH does not change in an audible amount or even a measurable amount. The thread is about a tuning that sounds too "in tune".

In the wound strings there are often IH differences amongst unison strings and they cannot be reconciled by unison technique.

I maintain that the effect the OP notices is a function of the instruments design and not the result of tuning style.


Hi Ed,

You mentioned issues with wound strings. I wonder if the differences in iH between two wound strings on the same pitch can cause issues in the upper partials sufficient to make it difficult to determine how much stretch to apply to the treble notes in order to reconcile the overall sound ot the piano? Any thoughts?

Top
#2087980 - 05/24/13 12:35 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 208
Loc: Massachusetts
MWM,

I don't understand where you get your Hz values for the 4th and 6th partials.

You posted the Verituner data, so let's use that. A4 is 50 cents flat, and according to the Verituner, partial 1 is reading a value of 427.322 Hz. The inharmonicity of the string at that tension, was given as 0.000801439.

Wouldn't one expect partial 4 to be somewhere around 1712 Hz and partial 6 to be somewhere around 2570 Hz. Where do you get 1769 Hz and 2673 Hz?
_________________________
Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

Top
#2087983 - 05/24/13 12:38 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
MWM,

I don't understand where you get your Hz values for the 4th and 6th partials.

You posted the Verituner data, so let's use that. A4 is 50 cents flat, and according to the Verituner, partial 1 is reading a value of 427.322 Hz. The inharmonicity of the string at that tension, was given as 0.000801439.

Wouldn't one expect partial 4 to be somewhere around 1712 Hz and partial 6 to be somewhere around 2570 Hz. Where do you get 1769 Hz and 2673 Hz?


Hi Chris,

I posted the actual page from the Verituner Manual. The data is their's not mine, and I admit that I did not check the accuracy. Busy now, now, will check later.

Top
#2087992 - 05/24/13 12:50 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
MWM,

I don't understand where you get your Hz values for the 4th and 6th partials.

You posted the Verituner data, so let's use that. A4 is 50 cents flat, and according to the Verituner, partial 1 is reading a value of 427.322 Hz. The inharmonicity of the string at that tension, was given as 0.000801439.

Wouldn't one expect partial 4 to be somewhere around 1712 Hz and partial 6 to be somewhere around 2570 Hz. Where do you get 1769 Hz and 2673 Hz?


0,6 -0,7 cts are medium measures for a4 iH (first partial) .

Get high in time with the aging of strings


Edited by Olek (05/24/13 02:06 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2087999 - 05/24/13 01:03 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: RonTuner]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
I haven't been following this discussion too much, but today I skimmed through and thought I'd add a bit about ETD inharmonicity. There has long been reported different FAC numbers from college techs returning to the same instrument different times of the year...

Now we have a tunelab test that seems to indicate another platform measuring differently depending on pitch.

I did some tests with Dave Carpenter (verituner) a few years after the Verituner was in production to see if we could force that platform to measure differently based on pitch. We de-tuned a piano string in steps down to around -80cents and couldn't see any difference on that machine (or any more difference than between multiple tests at pitch). He had a unit that was able to show the raw data that the machine collected.

This was only one string, so it didn't test the whole piano being at a different pitch, nor did it test the possibility that a change in humidity might be influencing the entire system...

Hi Ron, bad news for the VT100 in that case. You can checkthat iH change with any of the scaling spreadsheet availeable.
U
I understand that this was not a data widely known 20 years ago, but iH and methods to compute it is understoo since Young . Fenner stated that it was amazing that at the same time we get a lot of very cool tools to work on scales and that pianos with huge jumps in iH where still designed.

I decided to understand better scaling as I have enough of unsupported affirmations. I accept any affirmation as soon it is backed with explanations. Very rarely the case, you are obliged to use common sence so to avoid all the ideas that come and go, as there are so much in the piano trade.

Reading seem to help to understand what are we working on, litterature is not too difficult to find, what was at the origin of 90% of the instruments we meet is not so vast, many authors point the same direction.
I would expect ETD developpers to know at last a minimum about iH.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2088039 - 05/24/13 02:02 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
MWM,

I don't understand where you get your Hz values for the 4th and 6th partials.

You posted the Verituner data, so let's use that. A4 is 50 cents flat, and according to the Verituner, partial 1 is reading a value of 427.322 Hz. The inharmonicity of the string at that tension, was given as 0.000801439.

Wouldn't one expect partial 4 to be somewhere around 1712 Hz and partial 6 to be somewhere around 2570 Hz. Where do you get 1769 Hz and 2673 Hz?


I think what the Verituner manual is saying is that, if you measure the iH before you do a pitch raise, and then use those iHs for the final stretch at pitch, the result will not be the same as if you had done a pitch raise, then checked the iHs, and then redone the temperament. That explains the partial frequencies shown - they reflect two different iHs using the same base frequency (439.955 in this case). Hope this clears it up.

Top
#2088048 - 05/24/13 02:10 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Mwm]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 208
Loc: Massachusetts
Nevermind,

I see what's happening. The Verituner data is pointing out the error that would be introduced if one simply used the IH values read from the piano strings when they were 50 cents or 20 cents flat. This is an argument for remeasuring after the first big pitch raise. I have no problem with that.

But what we're talking about here is the error that would be introduced by the IH if you measured the string at initial state where it were already very very close to pitch, say just 1 cent flat. The effect is numerically calculable, sure, but it's infinitesmal and inaudible.
_________________________
Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

Top
#2088051 - 05/24/13 02:13 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Olek]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Here is a reference on inharmonicity from the Verituner Manual, © 2012 JWS

"Inharmonicity varies with pitch on the same string

The inharmonicity can vary slightly for a single string as its pitch is changed. This can be a problem when tuning a piano which is far out of tune at the start. To see this, I show below the inharmonicity for a single A4 string as a function of its frequency.

Offset (in cents) Fundamental B value

0 439.955 0.000749032
-10 437.445 0.000758101
-20 434.805 0.000770484
-30 432.353 0.000775297
-40 429.717 0.000789170
-50 427.322 0.000801439

With a 50 cent starting offset: The B value changes from 0.000749032 to 0.000801439, which represents a change in the frequency of partial f4 from 1769.2 to 1769.9 Hz (or 0.7 cents), and for f6 from 2673.6 to 2675.9 (1.5 cents).

For a 20 cent deviation: The B value changes from 0.000749032 to 0.000770484, which changes f4 from 1769.2 to 1769.5 Hz (or 0.3 cents), and f6 from 2673.6 to 2674.6 (0.65 cents). "

My point is that, even for small changes in overall pitch of the piano, the iH changes enough to cause audible differences in the upper partials, especially when one tunes beatless unisons.


Not wanting to argue specifically, but in the end iH is a result from string stretch under tension, so certainly a clearer tone is heard, but the mechanical behaviour of the string is changed too, its energy is better transmitted. There is a (small) part of iH that is due to the amount of resiliency of the bridge/backscale, so justness wise I suppose there is a limited effect but tonally it is large.

Anyway for instance tuning a piano at 415hz 435 or a tension it was not intended for is not helping the instrument .
Old strings get hard and stiff , tension may help them to gain a minimal resiliency and to tone better.

I had experiences with soft strings that gave not enough iH to me, unless they are used with low tensile stress. We are used to iH, sometime too much probably.




The values above have to be multiplied by 1000 to be realistic. Then, the usual 0.7 cts are met .
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2088057 - 05/24/13 02:22 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Nevermind,

I see what's happening. The Verituner data is pointing out the error that would be introduced if one simply used the IH values read from the piano strings when they were 50 cents or 20 cents flat. This is an argument for remeasuring after the first big pitch raise. I have no problem with that.

But what we're talking about here is the error that would be introduced by the IH if you measured the string at initial state where it were already very very close to pitch, say just 1 cent flat. The effect is numerically calculable, sure, but it's infinitesmal and inaudible.

I agree. I also am making some assumptions that high end piano makers consider iH when they choose the scaling to be used, the type wire, type and number of wound strings, and so on. I also assume that they have in mind some temperament that will be used such that all their design work will not be in vain. Therefore, I wonder, when a tuner sets a well temperament that is somewhat far removed from quasi-ET, if it is possible to make the instrument as sweet sounding as the designer intended. Many contributors here at PW have argued that iH is the same, no matter what temperament is used. I may be picky, but that does not seem to be the case. ( Certainly in the case of using a period pitch base, 432, or 415, for example, one is really screwing around with the design. )

Top
#2088063 - 05/24/13 02:35 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: alfredo capurso]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2058
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
In this sense, I would not take the worse of what theory, maths and "science" can offer, for instance I would not confuse ETDs figures, how exact they seem to be, with the exactitude needed and that we are able to achieve aurally.

Whatever the numbers may be, in reality isn't the main effect of inharmonicity that there is no such thing as the OP's "dead on" interval?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2088066 - 05/24/13 02:37 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Olek]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: Olek

Hi Ron, bad news for the VT100 in that case. You can checkthat iH change with any of the scaling spreadsheet availeable.


Actually, I see it as good news for Verituner users - it appears to show stable results through situations that confound other platforms... At least at the levels that apply to the realities of tuning pianos.
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#2088075 - 05/24/13 02:43 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Withindale]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
In this sense, I would not take the worse of what theory, maths and "science" can offer, for instance I would not confuse ETDs figures, how exact they seem to be, with the exactitude needed and that we are able to achieve aurally.

Whatever the numbers may be, in reality isn't the main effect of inharmonicity that there is no such thing as the OP's "dead on" interval?

So it would seem.

Top
#2088087 - 05/24/13 02:53 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Withindale]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
In this sense, I would not take the worse of what theory, maths and "science" can offer, for instance I would not confuse ETDs figures, how exact they seem to be, with the exactitude needed and that we are able to achieve aurally.

Whatever the numbers may be, in reality isn't the main effect of inharmonicity that there is no such thing as the OP's "dead on" interval?


Hello Ian,

It's nice to find you here.

I need to make sure that I get your point correctly: are you wondering.. due to iH, there isn't such a thing as "dead on" intervals..., meaning that because of iH it is no possible to think/talk about "perfectly in tune" tunings?

Please believe me, it is my poor English... if I'm not on your point, would you please re-word it?
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2088093 - 05/24/13 03:01 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: alfredo capurso]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
In this sense, I would not take the worse of what theory, maths and "science" can offer, for instance I would not confuse ETDs figures, how exact they seem to be, with the exactitude needed and that we are able to achieve aurally.

Whatever the numbers may be, in reality isn't the main effect of inharmonicity that there is no such thing as the OP's "dead on" interval?


Hello Ian,

It's nice to find you here.

I need to make sure that I get your point correctly: are you wondering.. due to iH, there isn't such a thing as "dead on" intervals..., meaning that because of iH it is no possible to think/talk about "perfectly in tune" tunings?

Please believe me, it is my poor English... if I'm not on your point, would you please re-word it?



The difficulty here is to define "perfectly in tune". Using a rank of organ pipes for example, which have no iH, it is theoretically possible to tune a 12ET with great precision, if the wind pressure is perfectly constant, the temperature and humidity remain unchanged for the duration of the tuning, and probably some other factors I have not considered. Or one could tune it to any UT with equal precision, if the math for the UT is well described. But on a piano, my guess is that there is a best compromise tuning that is the least grating on the ears. I can't produce it yet, by I am trying!

Top
#2088096 - 05/24/13 03:03 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Olek]
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 208
Loc: Massachusetts
The reason the numbers don't look correct to you is that you're confusing two separate ways of representing inharmonicity.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1493652/Help%20needed%20-%20inharmonicity
_________________________
Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician

Top
#2088119 - 05/24/13 03:38 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
If it was noticed, and computations are good, no problem to me, but the workable numbers are for instance 0,7 ct at second partial level, it is way easier to read.

Ron you may have been looking at something else than iH in that case.

A small change in iH is supposed to change the computation, done by the VT100 but it may be so minimal you did not notice it. (it may not interfere on A3 A4 for instance) The amount of partial match used for for the first octave may have limits , tend to react more slowly than the top treble or bass for instance

For once the measured results correspond well to the theory you should have see a change in iH it is nothing mysterious, but the way the wire react to stress by being more resilient with more tension.






Edited by Olek (05/25/13 01:43 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2088286 - 05/24/13 07:57 PM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: alfredo capurso]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2058
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
In this sense, I would not take the worse of what theory, maths and "science" can offer, for instance I would not confuse ETDs figures, how exact they seem to be, with the exactitude needed and that we are able to achieve aurally.

Whatever the numbers may be, in reality isn't the main effect of inharmonicity that there is no such thing as the OP's "dead on" interval?

I need to make sure that I get your point correctly: are you wondering.. due to iH, there isn't such a thing as "dead on" intervals..., meaning that because of iH it is no possible to think/talk about "perfectly in tune" tunings?

Hi Alfredo,

Yes, because the partials are not harmonic no one can say exactly what "perfectly in tune" means. You have to listen to the instrument and find what sounds best, as you said in your recent post:

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Also in my opinion, as Isaac reports and suggests, it won't be only tuning... meaning that correct frequencies (which would make a piano sound "in tune") should go along with tone quality (read color) and energy circulation (resonance).
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2088371 - 05/25/13 12:29 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Loren D]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2445
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
I was too busy tuning pianos today to post in this thread...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

Top
#2088388 - 05/25/13 01:44 AM Re: So in tune that it sounds terrible [Re: Chris Storch]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
The reason the numbers don't look correct to you is that you're confusing two separate ways of representing inharmonicity.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1493652/Help%20needed%20-%20inharmonicity


Thanks for pointing that, in that case it is not "divided by 1000" indeed
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
Page 5 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
1875 legs and lyre where to get?
by Klavimaniac
42 minutes 26 seconds ago
"It Don't mean A Thing (If it Ain't...
by prout
Today at 04:43 PM
Yamaha CP33?
by Possum SP280Krome
Today at 04:16 PM
E4 Just Won't Come Into Tune
by Cobra1365
Today at 03:49 PM
10k budget for a piano in SW Ontario
by bogdan101
Today at 03:47 PM
Forum Stats
77071 Members
42 Forums
159405 Topics
2341611 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission