Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

Trying Something New with Search
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyers Guide
Who's Online
108 registered (Albunea, beet31425, alwatson, augustm, 36251, 28 invisible), 1791 Guests and 7 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2087180 - 05/23/13 06:21 AM ii - V - I proggression
john f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 160
Loc: thailand
I am a little, maybe a lot, confused about subject progression. I can play if but where, how? In addition to the chords already on the fake sheet or in place of those chords? Can someone please explain this to me. Thank you.

Top
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2087234 - 05/23/13 08:54 AM Re: ii - V - I proggression [Re: john f]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 818
Loc: Chicago
II-V-I is a very common chord progression in jazz standards. You play it where it is written on the lead sheet. It is good to practice playing II-V-Is in all key signatures because then, when you see it on a lead sheet, you will be comfortable with it. You will see II-V-I in virtually every tune by composers such as Gershwin, Porter and Berlin.

There are times when you can substitute a II-V-I progression for something else that is written, but that is a much more advanced skill that you probably don't need to worry about right now.

Top
#2087262 - 05/23/13 09:58 AM Re: ii - V - I proggression [Re: john f]
Farmerjones Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 436
Loc: Midwest USA
Originally Posted By: john f
I am a little, maybe a lot, confused about subject progression. I can play if but where, how? In addition to the chords already on the fake sheet or in place of those chords? Can someone please explain this to me. Thank you.


It may or may not be obvious,stabbing ii, V, I, ii, V, I, ii, V, I, repeatedly, isn't actually a song/tune in itself. If it's played in a particular way, say, ii, for 2 measures, V, for a single measure, then back to root I, for the last measure, still isn't the melody. The chords accompany the melody, hopefully in a harmonious way.

.."In addition to the chords already on the fake sheet or in place of those chords?"
Play the chords that are indicated on the fake/lead sheet. If the chords on the lead sheet or fake book repeat in a similar fashion, this is coincidence.
A lead sheet could possibly have chord letters or small chord diagrams for guitar, above the clef. I don't think I've seen any with Nashville numbers, (ii,V,I, etc.). You must understand for instance, that if the key is C, and you see a G chord noted above the clef, this is the V chord for the key of C.
The only instance where I would use Nashville numbers, is to convey to another musician what the chord progression is for a given song/tune, as the chord progression doesn't change even if the key changes. Forgive me if I over explain.
_________________________
view my profile for a link to my YT page.

Top
#2087430 - 05/23/13 01:48 PM Re: ii - V - I proggression [Re: john f]
john f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 160
Loc: thailand
Thanks for responding FarmerJones. So if I have a number that I want to play that already has C, G, F, chords indicated on the sheet, what do I do? Play them and just forget about the 2m, 5, 1 chords or do I mix them in with the other chords, or what? What is their purpose if I am still going to play the chords that are already on the sheet?

I am trying to play from sheet music, fake sheets. I want to play better sounding chords than the ones already indicated. All I know so far is to change a major chord to a major 6th or 7th. I also change a minor chord to a 6th or 7th chord.
Thanks again for your help.

Top
#2087439 - 05/23/13 01:59 PM Re: ii - V - I proggression [Re: jjo]
john f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 160
Loc: thailand
Thanks jjo. Right if it is already written in I play it as written. I have some jazz books with chords writted out that include those and I just play as written; My problem now is fake books and sheets that just use non-jazz chords, no extended chords. I know how to play extended chords but I don't know where to use them. I want to make some of the newer songs sound better by using jazzy sounding chords.

Top
#2087460 - 05/23/13 02:28 PM Re: ii - V - I proggression [Re: john f]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 818
Loc: Chicago
John: Sounds like what you need to do is add extensions to chords more than substitutions. Here are some suggestions:
1. If you see a major chord, try the 6th or 7th.
2. If you see a minor chord, try the 7th and 9th.
3. If you see a dominant chord, trying adding the 9th and also try flatting the ninth, particularly if the next chord is a minor chord.
4. If you see a dominant chord, try adding the minor chord a 5th above just before it, thereby making two chords out of one. That's actually using the II-V concept. For example, if you see a C major chord followed by G dominant, try breaking the G chord into a D minor (II) following by G dominant (V).

As you can see, you are really asking how jazz voicings work, which is a lifetime of study. I'd recommend Mark Levine's the Jazz Piano book. He has many examples where he takes a lead sheet and slowing makes the voicings more complex, adding extensions and substitute chords. It's not easy, but it's very rewarding.

Top
#2087575 - 05/23/13 05:49 PM Re: ii - V - I proggression [Re: john f]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 937
You could think about the ii chord as just the extension of the V chord.

Yeah, if you see the V chord for a whole measure, adding the ii chord adds movement.

But, at the other end of the spectrum, if you're soloing and you see a ii/v chord you can just think V; it frees you up. Playing the 3rd of V chord over a ii chord (the 6th of the ii,) sounds very cool.
_________________________
AG N2 | CP4 | SSv3 | GK MK & MP

Top
#2088963 - 05/26/13 12:10 AM Re: ii - V - I proggression [Re: 36251]
john f Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 160
Loc: thailand
Thank you to everyone who replied. John

Top
#2095444 - 06/04/13 04:37 PM Re: ii - V - I proggression [Re: john f]
Michael Martinez Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 516
Loc: California
The purpose of a chord progression is to establish tonality. The reason a ii-V-I is popular is because it strongly establishes the tonality of the "I" (the key itself.) There are other progressions that you may use to establish the same "I" tonality and you may use those any time you wish as substitutes for the "ii-V-I".

In practical application, identify the key changes (or modulations) in your song, and create any chord progression you like in each of those sections which establish the tonality of each key. Usually you will do this in a way such that the chord does not clash with the melody note.

Here is another way to establish the tonality of "I":

I IV I V I

There are seven chords in the key, so a good exercise is to play around with different sequences in order to determine which ones strongly suggest the resolution to the "I" and which ones do so weakly.

Regarding use of tensions, you are basically at liberty to add one or two of the following on dominant 7th chords, regardless of whether these tones are in the key or not: b9, #9, #4, b13

You are at liberty to add the #4, major 9th and major 13th on major chords.

And you are at liberty to add the major 9th (only if it is in the key) and the natural 11th to minor chords.

You may add the 4th to the half-diminished chord.

When you add a tension, it must not clash with the melody.

I can recommend a book that goes through these rules and has you do a bunch of exercises so you get familiar with them. Probably a good idea if you aren't familiar with this process: Harmonic Foundation by Jimmie Amadie http://www.amazon.com/Harmonic-Foundation-Jazz-Popular-Music/dp/0961303506/


Edited by Michael Martinez (06/04/13 04:49 PM)
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

Top
#2096398 - 06/05/13 05:22 PM Re: ii - V - I proggression [Re: john f]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
||: I VI | ii V :|| is a lot of songs!

Top

Moderator:  sharpsandflats 
What's Hot!!
Piano Summit 2017 - Join Us!
along with Chick Corea, Jonathan Cain,Set Rudetsky, Ray Chew, Onree Gill ...
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad
Let Your Piano Sing
Let Your Piano Sing
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Aural Tuning - fork in teeth?
by Tom Delmonte
10/01/16 05:05 PM
An alternative to headphones OR silent system!
by peterws
10/01/16 04:38 PM
Damper Spoon Removal?
by Ruis
10/01/16 03:03 PM
How does your Kawai CS8 sound to you?
by ADWyatt
10/01/16 01:52 PM
61 key keyboard just for fun
by dat77
10/01/16 01:51 PM
Forum Stats
85,133 Registered Members
44 Forums
175,466 Topics
2,559,542 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2016 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission