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#2086846 - 05/22/13 02:15 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Enjoyed your lunch break. Yum. Nicely played, very relaxed, it breathes. Do submit it.

Well, I don't know if mine was so much arranged or written. I had an hour today, in-between my wife practising her oboe and shopping, I managed to record 3 versions. But I'm glad that it sounds like it holds together . . . (that sounds very Swinglish).


Edited by chrisbell (05/22/13 02:16 PM)
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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Piano & Music Accessories
#2086863 - 05/22/13 02:45 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
I struggle on what to do with the LH comping.

For now, I've two options. Just comp the A / B rootless voicings with 3rd/7th as lowest note. But this means E-7 won't go smooth into G-7 as those A / B voicings don't lay close to eachother.

Choose another inversion of the rootless chord so it's all smooth voice leading. This means for instance beginning E-7 with F# as lowest note, so for E- = F#-G-B-D which leads nicely to G-= F-A-Bb-D.

same for E7#9 to A min. As A- goes "to low".. because it's diving under middle C?

Next to that we see Bb Maj followed by B-b5.. But these are the same rootless voicings (because of b9 C melody in the piece)?!? So 4 bars same comping?


Edited by Lost Woods (05/22/13 02:48 PM)

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#2086929 - 05/22/13 04:58 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Lw,
Don't sweat the voicings. Pcik one, let it sinl in and stick to it.
For example g b d fs is fine on e-
E g a d is fine also. Just choose one.

For the b minor the root is nice here. D f a b will work good.
Don't do a lot rhythmically in the lh. Focus on a solid flow in the rh instead.

So many things to think about. ..

Chris, your head definitely sounds arranged, which is nice. The inner lines and parallel 6th (?) are at the right place.
I did steal the 2 handed last motif from you. Come to think of it I should have done 2 octaves instaed of 1.

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#2086932 - 05/22/13 05:02 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
I did steal the 2 handed last motif from you. Come to think of it I should have done 2 octaves instaed of 1.
Yes you should, you owe me a coffee. smile
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2087179 - 05/23/13 06:18 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hey Chris and Knotty
Very nice work. Your lines are relaxed with space and your grace notes add to the cool ambience.
You're gonna top the course.

Chris: you should definitely consider performing this at your next gig.

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#2087267 - 05/23/13 10:14 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Thanks Custard!

We'll see about performing it . . . smile
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2087350 - 05/23/13 11:48 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Since I didn't have any time this week, I just started today trying to improvise over the 500 Miles High tune... and this is exactly why I didn't try improvising anymore.

I just don't know what to do. Switching between scales at that speed makes me confused. Next to the switching I've also have to make a line which makes sense.. well.. it just doesn't work.

Give me one pentatonic (or blues) scale to use over a whole tune and I can improv.. I'll use the scale, arpeggios, add chord notes (if they aren't in the scale) etc. (on my level). Give me 10 scales over every chord a different scale and it sounds like nothing. Really frustrating.

I can run the scales up and down but well, that's not improvising. What I need are some sort of exercises which give something to hold on. Just giving scales and say: see what you can do with them maybe gives me too much freedom. Don't know where to start!


Edited by Lost Woods (05/23/13 11:48 AM)

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#2087367 - 05/23/13 12:04 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Try and look for common tones so that you can connect the scales.
For instance you can use a G on every chord.
Next is to find a second note ex: A (not on every chord, but nearly - not on Fm7)
Then another; F# and F

If you write out the scale tones you'll see that there's several different notes you can combine.
Next is rhythm . . . Patterns . . . it's a bossa . . .

I hear your frustration, but don't let it discourage you, your frustration is a potential for learning.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2087472 - 05/23/13 02:47 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Thanks Chris, I'll keep that in mind!
Well... some of my brain power still goes to the chords in the left hand.. so starting earlier than the deadline date.. to get the comping-chords in the fingers.. would be smart. To be really free in the right hand I can't spend to much brain on what chord to play.

Well anyway, I'll just post it. Can use ANY sort of critisism, ideas etc. on how to get better at this......
https://soundcloud.com/scott-fr-d-ric/500-miles-improv-2

O and for some reason my jazz playing is really rough.. gotta find some articulation tutorials.

EDIT:
Well I listened to yours and it's just awesome.
Some things I hear immediatly (next to the awesome voicings):
- sounds like making use of "sliding" on notes from half up/down?
- what you do on 1.15 and 1.17. It's like running down scale quickly very smooth or something like that?
- 1.36.. such a run sounds so cool.. gotta find out how to make one. Is this something you work out before playing or real improvise?


Edited by Lost Woods (05/23/13 02:55 PM)

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#2087493 - 05/23/13 03:11 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Lost Woods]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Lost Woods
Well anyway, I'll just post it. Can use ANY sort of critisism, ideas etc. on how to get better at this......
https://soundcloud.com/scott-fr-d-ric/500-miles-improv-2
Not bad. Nice touch, a relaxed head.
Now you're subdividing with triplets, this is a Latin tune, subdivision works a little better if you think 16ths and little straighter 8 notes.

Originally Posted By: Lost Woods

Well I listened to yours and it's just awesome.
Some things I hear immediatly (next to the awesome voicings):
- sounds like making use of "sliding" on notes from half up/down?
- what you do on 1.15 and 1.17. It's like running down scale quickly very smooth or something like that?
- 1.36.. such a run sounds so cool.. gotta find out how to make one. Is this something you work out before playing or real improvise?

Thanks.
Side-slipping. It works especially best when its a dominant chord, like the E7(#9). Well, listening to Chick Corea play this tune in its original version on the Light as a Feather album will teach and inspire you a lot. Practising with a metronome (or iRealB) is a great aid to getting those runs smooth. (again it's all down to working and practising on subdivisions).
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2087962 - 05/24/13 12:16 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: chrisbell]
Elkayem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 160
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

Side-slipping. It works especially best when its a dominant chord, like the E7(#9). Well, listening to Chick Corea play this tune in its original version on the Light as a Feather album will teach and inspire you a lot. Practising with a metronome (or iRealB) is a great aid to getting those runs smooth. (again it's all down to working and practising on subdivisions).

Side-slipping? Uh oh, some of these peer review graders are sticklers and are going to expect to hear the "correct" scales wink
_________________________
Schimmel 130T

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#2088260 - 05/24/13 06:52 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Lost Woods]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Lost Woods


I just don't know what to do. Switching between scales at that speed makes me confused. Next to the switching I've also have to make a line which makes sense.. well.. it just doesn't work.

Give me one pentatonic (or blues) scale to use over a whole tune and I can improv.. I'll use the scale, arpeggios, add chord notes (if they aren't in the scale) etc. (on my level). Give me 10 scales over every chord a different scale and it sounds like nothing. Really frustrating.

I can run the scales up and down but well, that's not improvising. What I need are some sort of exercises which give something to hold on. Just giving scales and say: see what you can do with them maybe gives me too much freedom. Don't know where to start!


Don't worry LW.
Learning how to incorporate the right mode for each measure could take a few years to master.
If you are stressing out over Week 3, just leave it as the week where your lowest mark won't be counted.
You may find Week 4 easier. I like how Chris suggested common tones to you.

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#2088276 - 05/24/13 07:32 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I'm utterly confused by Week 4.
Can the theory nuts enlighten me, please?

On line 5, we have a guide line:
B Bb A Ab G F# F
I can see that.

So how does that help me solo? Does it mean I get to use this scale (6 chromatic notes) any way I want for these 4 bars?
I think we're suppose to find another line based on third but it doesn't work that great because we get D, D, C and then Ab, to that's more than the whole tone we are allowed.

I actually have no idea what to do with these guide lines.

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#2088294 - 05/24/13 08:08 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
oh Knotty, I have to admit that even though I understand the general concept of common tones, I haven't got past Video 2.
Video 2 is utterly confusing to me as well.

Does Gary means guide line = melodic line ?
It didn't seem clear to me at all.

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#2088299 - 05/24/13 08:40 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I think the idea is to start on either root or 3rd of the first chord, and then walk up or down using chord tones. That seems to be what he does in his example. Though I fail to see what chord tone of Ab / Eb Gb is.
In other words, we have
E Ab/Eb | C#-7 B7 and so on, and the 2nd guide line is
G Gb E D#

Well I just don't get the Gb.

Help!

wink

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#2088303 - 05/24/13 08:44 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Add to that the fact that the tune is super hard, and either me or Keith are skipping beats, in measure 14, on the F-7, it's written as dotted 1/4 , followed by 2 1/4 notes which correctly adds up to 4 beats, but on the first chorus, keith plays 3 8th notes, skipping 2 beats of that measure. The 2nd chorus, he plays all beats though. So I just think he screwed up, but seeing how he's been one of my main source of happiness for the last 20 years, I'll give him a pass wink

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#2088385 - 05/25/13 01:35 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: knotty]
Mike A Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 521
Loc: So.Cal.USA
..

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#2088386 - 05/25/13 01:41 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: knotty]
Mike A Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 521
Loc: So.Cal.USA
..

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#2088391 - 05/25/13 02:00 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
It would be nice if Gary named the tune he is demonstrating guide tones on so folks could try it... It's "Con Alma" and I transcribed his G.T. lines for you... there was one mistaken note on the video transcription shown and I think he changed the resolutions in the 4th and 8th bar when he played all 3 at once... too bad I cannot upload a .pdf transcription I made of all 3 lines...

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#2088392 - 05/25/13 02:05 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
From Dan Haerle, a different take on the "guide tone game", well explained and demonstrated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ8i5q1nSsA

"Guide tones are the hooks you hang your melodies on."
"If they're kind of ringing in your head I believe your melody is going to have a stronger shape to it, it's going to lead forward better."
Dan Haerle

And a more basic take on Guide Tones from Emily Remler (a former Berklee student):
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vICCNOtGZ0
Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdER4qTcuRU
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#2088461 - 05/25/13 08:05 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: rintincop
It would be nice if Gary named the tune he is demonstrating guide tones on so folks could try it... It's "Con Alma"


Thanks rintincop.
This context does help quite a lot.

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#2088482 - 05/25/13 09:46 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Thanks for pointing out Con Alma. More thoughts later.

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#2088484 - 05/25/13 09:51 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I see Dave Frank tomorrow. I"m almost afraid to ask...

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#2088567 - 05/25/13 12:58 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
I'm digging this whole guide-tone concept(s), maybe it comes from spending all that time playing and analysing Bach Chorales.
It's maybe easier to discuss when one can actually see the notes:
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2088568 - 05/25/13 12:59 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
I see Dave Frank tomorrow. I"m almost afraid to ask...
Ask ask! smile
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2088762 - 05/25/13 06:59 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: chrisbell]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
I'm digging this whole guide-tone concept(s), maybe it comes from spending all that time playing and analysing Bach Chorales.
It's maybe easier to discuss when one can actually see the notes:


BEAUTIFUL work Chris. Great example of voice-leading.

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#2088880 - 05/25/13 10:25 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: custard apple]
Jim Frazee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 393
Loc: Westchester County, New York
Here's my week 4, Memories:

http://snd.sc/13RRzJb

Wish I'd had more time but I'm off to SF in the morning to see the granddaughter and Napa Valley. As I said on the sight, it IS improv, no? thumb
_________________________
PianoPerfection
Teacher, performer, technician
Westchester County, NY

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#2088895 - 05/25/13 10:48 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Nice work Jim! This is a hard one.

Chris, thanks for posting the guide lines for Con Alma. I think after I do my analysis, I will post for cross check.

Still I am a bit confused as to what to do with these guide lines. Take the first measure of Con Alma. What notes are you allowed? All notes from the entire guide lines? All notes within any of the 3 guide lines?

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#2088918 - 05/25/13 11:08 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
OK, so I think maybe I get it. It's that you use it as chord tones, but instead of picking any random chord tone as your target, you pick a line and stick to it for some period of time.

That still leaves you with the issue of knowing what to play between those target notes.
So I assume the chord / Scale relationship is applied here? So on bar 5-5, you'd do F lydian, F# sym dim, and C major. or can you use C lydian on that F# dim, basically F# locrian, which makes it a lot easier with a lot more common tone and keeps it close to what overall seems to be a tune with a lot of G major scale. I'm gonna say that F#dim falls into the 15% where the basic rule does not apply.

I'll work on the 3rd line tomorrow...

Gracias guys.

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#2088995 - 05/26/13 03:16 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
Gary Burton mentioned that most chord sequences have one guide tone line, sometimes two guide tone lines, and rarely 3 guide tone lines... He also said the guide tone approach is most useful when the chords are changing every 2 beats (such as the 5th line in "Memories of Tomorrow ") and when they are not obvious ii V I changes... something Gary forgot to mention is that you play your phrase into the next guide tone which becomes the resolution note, you don't play the guide tone as the starting note of each phrase, it's the last note of each phrase. They are points of resolution! Very important.

I like Dan Hearle's approach to "guide tones", shown on youtube, I think it's is less pedantic, more practical, flexible, easier to use, more creative, and funner... in my opinion.
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ8i5q1nSsA
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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