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#2089001 - 05/26/13 03:51 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: rintincop
They are points of resolution!
Good point!


Edited by chrisbell (05/26/13 03:51 AM)
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#2089055 - 05/26/13 08:01 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: rintincop


I like Dan Hearle's approach to "guide tones", shown on youtube, I think it's is less pedantic.
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ8i5q1nSsA


Thank you rintincop.
You are right, Dan's approach is significantly less pedantic.
For starters, Dan's definition of a guide tone is quite broad: a guide tone can be a 3rd, 7th, or other extension, or other alteration.

At the moment, I'm still trying to digest Gary's video 3.

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#2089085 - 05/26/13 09:32 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hi Rintin,

I watched the Dan Hearle video. It is much easier indeed, but partly due to the fact that he picks a straight tune. I would think that for All the things you are, the concept of common scales applies mostly throughout.
I see Gary Burton's method as a way to help the student play through changes that are not common and move very fast, like Con Alma.

I'm going to work on memorizing that tune using these tones and then start blowing on it.

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#2089226 - 05/26/13 02:17 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Elkayem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Jim, I liked your version of Memories.

Here is my assignment. I really like this tune.
https://soundcloud.com/elkayem/memories-of-tomorrow
_________________________
Schimmel 130T

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#2090434 - 05/28/13 02:25 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
In "Olhos De Gato" by Carla Bley, it seems odd that Gary would identify Bb/A and B/Bb as lydians...

Bb/A sounds distinctly like A phrygian, not Bb lydian
B/Bb sounds distinctly like Bb phrygian, not Bb lydian

lydian has a floating and major sounding quality to it..
phrygian has a tense and dark sounding quality to it...

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#2090448 - 05/28/13 03:49 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: rintincop
In "Olhos De Gato" by Carla Bley, it seems odd that Gary would identify Bb/A and B/Bb as lydians...
Bb/A sounds distinctly like A phrygian, not Bb lydian
B/Bb sounds distinctly like Bb phrygian, not Bb lydian

I don't find it odd. One reason is that Phrygian moves the tune into Spanish la fiesta land, and that's not CB's intention with the piece. The Lydian scale combined with the Maj7 as a root is a very cool sound. But . . I do love the Phrygian scale too . . .

I've spent a week many years back in the studio with Carla Bley, watching, talking and listening to her rehearse a big band work through her music. She would say "go for both if you want . . . it's your solo . . ".

btw on that note, She and Steve will be coming to Sweden next year to perform music written for a octet of Swedish musicians, I've been asked to record the sessions . . . sheer pleasure for me.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2090483 - 05/28/13 07:37 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: chrisbell]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Carla Bley and Steve Swallow.....it's all happening in Sweden.
You always manage to record/produce the big ones !

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#2090564 - 05/28/13 10:18 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
Chris,

When "Olhos De Gato" reaches the Bb/A measures and the B/Bb measures do you feel and hear them as measures of release? As major harmony, virtually free of harmonic tension? That characteristic floating tension free major sound that Lydian has? ... Or do you hear them as a darker sound with substantial harmonic tension?

I hear those 2 bar episodes as one of harmonic tension, to me it's obviously the feeling of phrygian and not the harmonic release that lydian creates.

J+

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#2090566 - 05/28/13 10:22 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
I don't think it's a matter of which mode is easier to think of... I think it's important to know what two very different sounding modes really sound like...

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#2090571 - 05/28/13 10:30 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
Okay... I guess it's sort of like this. If I want somebody to play the scale over C7 alt , then I tell them to play the C# melodic minor scale over C... although that can becomes a crutch after a while if the students never realizes what the alt scale is in its own right..
It's a way of explaining a short cut to those that don't know their "alt scales", it's the simplest way to find it...
In this, case Bb lydian explains to those not fluent in phrygian how to find the same pool of notes, it provides a short cut... but in the end the sound is phrygian not lydian. And perhaps some students never get the distinction.

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#2090594 - 05/28/13 11:11 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: rintincop
When "Olhos De Gato" reaches the Bb/A measures and the B/Bb measures do you feel and hear them as measures of release? As major harmony, virtually free of harmonic tension? That characteristic floating tension free major sound that Lydian has? ... Or do you hear them as a darker sound with substantial harmonic tension?

I hear those 2 bar episodes as one of harmonic tension, to me it's obviously the feeling of phrygian and not the harmonic release that lydian creates.
I hear them as separate entities, free-floating . . . It's tricky when it is these chords with a pedal-bass, but I tend to view and hear the chord above the slash as the important thingie. (sorry, late in the afternoon, kids are hungry . . ), to me Olhos is straight out of classical harmony; Satie, Chopin, etc so I tend to view/hear it that way.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2090599 - 05/28/13 11:18 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: rintincop
If I want somebody to play the scale over C7 alt , then I tell them to play the C# melodic minor scale over C...
As you write, its a crutch. Its a great mnemonic, but its leads to faulty thinking/playing. As a C altered scale is not a C# melodic minor; 7th degree.

It's like the Bb/A, that's a Bb major triad over a A, not a A phrygian - same notes, different sound/approach. As its a Bb major triad I focus on the Bb D F A
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2090608 - 05/28/13 11:33 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Rintin,
For what it's worth, I think these scales become familiar once we play them. If the student picks a tune he's going to work on for a few weeks, and eacj time use c altered over a particular chord, that link will become natural and automatic as gary burton describes.
I think it is better to teach the proper concepts, but add new elements slowly.

I feel gary's course is week in that respect. It introduces many scales, but fails to tell us what to do with them. The concepts are extremely advanced, especially for a beginner improviser.
It is not enough knowing what scale and chord to use. One has to digest how to use those.


Edited by knotty (05/28/13 11:33 AM)

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#2090703 - 05/28/13 01:53 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Here's the lunch take for memories of tomorrow. I ran through the tune over the week end but didn't get to record.

I find this to be a very difficult tune, but I may post it as the final product. I'm not sure how much more I want to spend on it. Especially since lesson 5 has started.

http://snd.sc/13X6dit

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#2090729 - 05/28/13 02:21 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
Here's the lunch take for memories of tomorrow. I ran through the tune over the week end but didn't get to record. I find this to be a very difficult tune, but I may post it as the final product. I'm not sure how much more I want to spend on it. Especially since lesson 5 has started.
Not bad K! Not bad indeed. Yeah, its difficult tune, also I'm getting frustrated about the tempo chosen . . . so I'm rushing all the time. You played the head very nicely.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

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https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2090816 - 05/28/13 04:59 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Thanks Chris.
Is the tempo too slow for you?

While practicing, I did a few 16th lines, especially on that d/f# followed by f. It worked good there.
But listening back, it was a bit rushed.

There are multiple challenges. For one, the changes are pretty tough And come quick.
Then, one needs to use a nice blend of scales and arps, while maintaining the concept of guide lines.
I dont know if those guide lines came out clear or no, but I was trying to have them there, not limited to a single octave.
I was not able to mix guide lines within a phrase.

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#2090819 - 05/28/13 05:02 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
A tad.

Also, the sort-of-bossa feel is not a favourite of mine.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2090950 - 05/28/13 10:15 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
Would you not agree that phrygian and lydian have distinctively different sounds?
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#2090993 - 05/28/13 10:48 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
Chick Corea taught me these triads over the bass note more than 20 years ago. He said this was the key to mastering modal harmony for improvisation. He had me practice them in all 12 keys to the point they are all automatic now.

E/A is the characteristic sound of Ionian
C/A is the characteristic sound of Dorian
Bb/A is the characteristic sound of Phrygian
B/A is the characteristic sound of Lydian
F/A is the characteristic sound of Aeolian
Eb/A is the characteristic sound of Locrian

Spend 3 minutes vamping on each and playing the mode, really listen to the sound until you can recognize it by it's emotional quality.

One should know and hear the associated parent majors scales of each mode in all 12 keys without thinking, and this quickly became the case with a little practice. There's no time to think about it when improvising.. this is really the ABC's of modal playing, so basic. But it is not stressed by many in jazz education.

I am a bit surprised about gary about implying it's a lydian sound...

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#2091025 - 05/28/13 11:19 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
See how the minor second and minor sixth intervals can be considered characteristic of the Phrygian mode, and how Bb/A captures that. See that the E in the melody is a passing note and not included in the left hand voicing, so you could argue that Bb Lydian places the wrong emphasis.

Okay, I am done with this lesson. I hope I am getting through but I fear I am not,
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#2091127 - 05/29/13 03:55 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: rintincop
Would you not agree that phrygian and lydian have distinctively different sounds?
Absolutely. Sorry if I've been unclear about this.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2091129 - 05/29/13 04:06 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: rintincop
I am a bit surprised about gary about implying it's a lydian sound...
When Chick plays those harmonies/scales his analysis makes perfect sense. On the other hand Gary's soloing makes also perfect sense. I "get" Gary's interpretation, he views the chord as the sound so Bb/A is a Bb lydian over an A played by the bassist. It's a different sound, than hearing A Bb C . .

And then again, they both are able to play together . . . smile

on that note: Gary says: play Locrian over a m7(b5), when Pat Metheny says in several interviews (and lesson recordings) play Locrian #2.

So many choices . . . so many colours . . . I used to be adamant Locrian #2, but after listening to Gary's lecture: "check the melody . . ." I've changed my mind, Locrian on some tunes, Locrian #2 on some tunes.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2091133 - 05/29/13 04:13 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: rintincop
See how the minor second and minor sixth intervals can be considered characteristic of the Phrygian mode, and how Bb/A captures that. See that the E in the melody is a passing note and not included in the left hand voicing, so you could argue that Bb Lydian places the wrong emphasis. Okay, I am done with this lesson. I hope I am getting through but I fear I am not,
I hear you, have no worries. Its a good discussion.
To me in depends on context (and of course what do I want to achieve).
In the context of Carla Bley and her sound world then Lydian is fine, in the context of Chick and his world; a Phrygian sounds great.
An interesting experiment is to let the bassist play the bass notes and the pianist plays only the triads and the corresponding scales (no root notes).
It's a bit like the first bars of Green Dolphin Street; is it Maj7 min7, etc or is it Maj7 Maj7 Maj7 Maj7 . . .
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2091159 - 05/29/13 06:02 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Here's my lunch break (Memories of T): http://snd.sc/19lodFD
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2091167 - 05/29/13 06:20 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: rintincop

E/A is the characteristic sound of Ionian
C/A is the characteristic sound of Dorian
Bb/A is the characteristic sound of Phrygian
B/A is the characteristic sound of Lydian
F/A is the characteristic sound of Aeolian
Eb/A is the characteristic sound of Locrian

Btw. Thanks for sharing the above. Interesting and illuminating of Chick's chord/scale thinking.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2091175 - 05/29/13 06:38 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey chris,
Nice control. You just had to put t house those 16th where I said, didnt you.
I like the inner lines on the last fmaj, a la jarrett.
The guide lines did not come out as clear on the 4th line as it did on the first. I had to really break this one down into small sections.

How was your lunch?

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#2091176 - 05/29/13 06:43 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1345
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Thanks. Yeah that, D/F# just wants to have them thrown in there.
Guide-lines? F--- them! I just want to play! smile

Lunch was good. Schnitzel, salad and freedom fries.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2091374 - 05/29/13 01:00 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Ah, now that I see lesson 5, I understand why you all are talking about this obscure tune smile

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#2091379 - 05/29/13 01:03 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I must be theory challenged, because I would have definitely picked a melody minor on that first A- chord... The fact that it says A- and not A-7 is a hint, but the fact that the voicing as the 6 in it would make me play a major 7th, not minor.

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#2091420 - 05/29/13 01:49 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
So now the whole discussion of Bb/A has opened a big can of worms for me.

Up until now, I thought they were 2 kinds of / chords. Those where the bass is in the triads, and then the rest.

For example, if I see C / E, then I take it that we want an inversion of C, nothing more. Since GB's course, I know to look for guide tones. Probably this was written this way with the intent to use a particular bass movement.

The 2nd kind would be E / C.
In that case, I see it as a simply way to write C maj7 #5. To think of it in terms of upper structure. One triad over a bass note. The chord in this case is a C chord.

So in the case of Bb/A, I would say like J+ and think that A is the chord, and the really, we're asking for Phrygian. Though one might argue that the intent is really Bbmaj7 / A. In which case, you'd see it as a Bb chord.

Getting home tonight, I will check Levine's book to see his thoughts on it.

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