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Good point!

Thank you rintincop.
You are right, Dan's approach is significantly less pedantic.
For starters, Dan's definition of a guide tone is quite broad: a guide tone can be a 3rd, 7th, or other extension, or other alteration.

At the moment, I'm still trying to digest Gary's video 3.

Hi Rintin,

I watched the Dan Hearle video. It is much easier indeed, but partly due to the fact that he picks a straight tune. I would think that for All the things you are, the concept of common scales applies mostly throughout.
I see Gary Burton's method as a way to help the student play through changes that are not common and move very fast, like Con Alma.

I'm going to work on memorizing that tune using these tones and then start blowing on it.

Jim, I liked your version of Memories.

Here is my assignment. I really like this tune.
https://soundcloud.com/elkayem/memories-of-tomorrow

In "Olhos De Gato" by Carla Bley, it seems odd that Gary would identify Bb/A and B/Bb as lydians...

Bb/A sounds distinctly like A phrygian, not Bb lydian
B/Bb sounds distinctly like Bb phrygian, not Bb lydian

lydian has a floating and major sounding quality to it..
phrygian has a tense and dark sounding quality to it...

I don't find it odd. One reason is that Phrygian moves the tune into Spanish la fiesta land, and that's not CB's intention with the piece. The Lydian scale combined with the Maj7 as a root is a very cool sound. But . . I do love the Phrygian scale too . . .

I've spent a week many years back in the studio with Carla Bley, watching, talking and listening to her rehearse a big band work through her music. She would say "go for both if you want . . . it's your solo . . ".

btw on that note, She and Steve will be coming to Sweden next year to perform music written for a octet of Swedish musicians, I've been asked to record the sessions . . . sheer pleasure for me.

Carla Bley and Steve Swallow.....it's all happening in Sweden.
You always manage to record/produce the big ones !

Chris,

When "Olhos De Gato" reaches the Bb/A measures and the B/Bb measures do you feel and hear them as measures of release? As major harmony, virtually free of harmonic tension? That characteristic floating tension free major sound that Lydian has? ... Or do you hear them as a darker sound with substantial harmonic tension?

I hear those 2 bar episodes as one of harmonic tension, to me it's obviously the feeling of phrygian and not the harmonic release that lydian creates.

J+

I don't think it's a matter of which mode is easier to think of... I think it's important to know what two very different sounding modes really sound like...

Okay... I guess it's sort of like this. If I want somebody to play the scale over C7 alt , then I tell them to play the C# melodic minor scale over C... although that can becomes a crutch after a while if the students never realizes what the alt scale is in its own right..
It's a way of explaining a short cut to those that don't know their "alt scales", it's the simplest way to find it...
In this, case Bb lydian explains to those not fluent in phrygian how to find the same pool of notes, it provides a short cut... but in the end the sound is phrygian not lydian. And perhaps some students never get the distinction.

I hear them as separate entities, free-floating . . . It's tricky when it is these chords with a pedal-bass, but I tend to view and hear the chord above the slash as the important thingie. (sorry, late in the afternoon, kids are hungry . . ), to me Olhos is straight out of classical harmony; Satie, Chopin, etc so I tend to view/hear it that way.

As you write, its a crutch. Its a great mnemonic, but its leads to faulty thinking/playing. As a C altered scale is not a C# melodic minor; 7th degree.

It's like the Bb/A, that's a Bb major triad over a A, not a A phrygian - same notes, different sound/approach. As its a Bb major triad I focus on the Bb D F A

Rintin,
For what it's worth, I think these scales become familiar once we play them. If the student picks a tune he's going to work on for a few weeks, and eacj time use c altered over a particular chord, that link will become natural and automatic as gary burton describes.
I think it is better to teach the proper concepts, but add new elements slowly.

I feel gary's course is week in that respect. It introduces many scales, but fails to tell us what to do with them. The concepts are extremely advanced, especially for a beginner improviser.
It is not enough knowing what scale and chord to use. One has to digest how to use those.

Here's the lunch take for memories of tomorrow. I ran through the tune over the week end but didn't get to record.

I find this to be a very difficult tune, but I may post it as the final product. I'm not sure how much more I want to spend on it. Especially since lesson 5 has started.

http://snd.sc/13X6dit

Not bad K! Not bad indeed. Yeah, its difficult tune, also I'm getting frustrated about the tempo chosen . . . so I'm rushing all the time. You played the head very nicely.

Thanks Chris.
Is the tempo too slow for you?

While practicing, I did a few 16th lines, especially on that d/f# followed by f. It worked good there.
But listening back, it was a bit rushed.

There are multiple challenges. For one, the changes are pretty tough And come quick.
Then, one needs to use a nice blend of scales and arps, while maintaining the concept of guide lines.
I dont know if those guide lines came out clear or no, but I was trying to have them there, not limited to a single octave.
I was not able to mix guide lines within a phrase.

A tad.

Also, the sort-of-bossa feel is not a favourite of mine.

Would you not agree that phrygian and lydian have distinctively different sounds?

Chick Corea taught me these triads over the bass note more than 20 years ago. He said this was the key to mastering modal harmony for improvisation. He had me practice them in all 12 keys to the point they are all automatic now.

E/A is the characteristic sound of Ionian
C/A is the characteristic sound of Dorian
Bb/A is the characteristic sound of Phrygian
B/A is the characteristic sound of Lydian
F/A is the characteristic sound of Aeolian
Eb/A is the characteristic sound of Locrian

Spend 3 minutes vamping on each and playing the mode, really listen to the sound until you can recognize it by it's emotional quality.

One should know and hear the associated parent majors scales of each mode in all 12 keys without thinking, and this quickly became the case with a little practice. There's no time to think about it when improvising.. this is really the ABC's of modal playing, so basic. But it is not stressed by many in jazz education.

I am a bit surprised about gary about implying it's a lydian sound...

See how the minor second and minor sixth intervals can be considered characteristic of the Phrygian mode, and how Bb/A captures that. See that the E in the melody is a passing note and not included in the left hand voicing, so you could argue that Bb Lydian places the wrong emphasis.

Okay, I am done with this lesson. I hope I am getting through but I fear I am not,