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Absolutely. Sorry if I've been unclear about this.

When Chick plays those harmonies/scales his analysis makes perfect sense. On the other hand Gary's soloing makes also perfect sense. I "get" Gary's interpretation, he views the chord as the sound so Bb/A is a Bb lydian over an A played by the bassist. It's a different sound, than hearing A Bb C . .

And then again, they both are able to play together . . .

on that note: Gary says: play Locrian over a m7(b5), when Pat Metheny says in several interviews (and lesson recordings) play Locrian #2.

So many choices . . . so many colours . . . I used to be adamant Locrian #2, but after listening to Gary's lecture: "check the melody . . ." I've changed my mind, Locrian on some tunes, Locrian #2 on some tunes.

I hear you, have no worries. Its a good discussion.
To me in depends on context (and of course what do I want to achieve).
In the context of Carla Bley and her sound world then Lydian is fine, in the context of Chick and his world; a Phrygian sounds great.
An interesting experiment is to let the bassist play the bass notes and the pianist plays only the triads and the corresponding scales (no root notes).
It's a bit like the first bars of Green Dolphin Street; is it Maj7 min7, etc or is it Maj7 Maj7 Maj7 Maj7 . . .

Here's my lunch break (Memories of T): http://snd.sc/19lodFD

Btw. Thanks for sharing the above. Interesting and illuminating of Chick's chord/scale thinking.

Hey chris,
Nice control. You just had to put t house those 16th where I said, didnt you.
I like the inner lines on the last fmaj, a la jarrett.
The guide lines did not come out as clear on the 4th line as it did on the first. I had to really break this one down into small sections.

How was your lunch?

Thanks. Yeah that, D/F# just wants to have them thrown in there.
Guide-lines? F--- them! I just want to play!

Lunch was good. Schnitzel, salad and freedom fries.

Ah, now that I see lesson 5, I understand why you all are talking about this obscure tune

I must be theory challenged, because I would have definitely picked a melody minor on that first A- chord... The fact that it says A- and not A-7 is a hint, but the fact that the voicing as the 6 in it would make me play a major 7th, not minor.

So now the whole discussion of Bb/A has opened a big can of worms for me.

Up until now, I thought they were 2 kinds of / chords. Those where the bass is in the triads, and then the rest.

For example, if I see C / E, then I take it that we want an inversion of C, nothing more. Since GB's course, I know to look for guide tones. Probably this was written this way with the intent to use a particular bass movement.

The 2nd kind would be E / C.
In that case, I see it as a simply way to write C maj7 #5. To think of it in terms of upper structure. One triad over a bass note. The chord in this case is a C chord.

So in the case of Bb/A, I would say like J+ and think that A is the chord, and the really, we're asking for Phrygian. Though one might argue that the intent is really Bbmaj7 / A. In which case, you'd see it as a Bb chord.

Getting home tonight, I will check Levine's book to see his thoughts on it.

Phrygian has a distinctive sound (dark and brooding) and so does lydian (light and majestic), basically almost opposite sounding... It's beyond me how somebody really listening can hear lydian in the tune at that point ... it's sort of like saying sad sounds happy...

With his rushed schedule I think Gary must have simply forgotten to mention it's A phrygian (Bb/A) and that you can think of the Bb lydian scale when soloing (or the F major scale, or any of the 7 modes in F major for that matter).

Have you seen this? Gary's solo on Green Dolphin St, transcribed by a participant.
https://class.coursera.org/improvisation-001/forum/thread?thread_id=1419

For some reason or the other, I don't really (and never did) dig this scale/guidetones etc. thing... Why not? Because there is a lot of thinking going which on distracts me from making the music and why think about a scale if all notes are available.

I would rather approach improv the way like, how Gary tells, Stan Getz does.
"He had never studies music theory much, didn't know much about chords, he just knew the basic triad for each chord symbol that he saw. He would start with those notes and than use his ear to find other notes and he would make mistakes sometimes, but he got very good at correcting them by sliding into the next note to make it sound ok and so on."

Since I'm never going to be a professional Jazz piano player, and do not have the time pro's have... Sometimes I think, isn't it smarter just to concentrate on the ear and learn how to play the melody's straight from your mind without thinking in scales etc. Isn't that what Improv is about in the end? Do pro's play like "o here is D dorian, E altered, A symmetrical diminished" or just "go with the flow" without really thinking about scales.

I'm thinking about a way to try playing the line as you hear it in your mind by for example: hear the changes (and melody).. than stop playing the changes (pause), sing the melody that just came up and learn it with your fingers and play it over the changes. Again and again until you can almost nail (any) melody in your head correctly immediately without having to pause..

Maybe I'm just not patient enough... but hope you guys understand where I'm coming from.

EDIT:
This is almost exactly like how I think:
Greg Fishman: Some students learn to play a diminished whole-tone scale when they see an altered dominant chord, and so they are going to play it because it is the "correct" thing to do. The problem with that is that it's meaningless if they arrive at those note choices by theory alone, and not by ear. I call this phenomenon "empty note playing." These are notes without specific harmonic intent. The notes may be technically correct, but they won't be as convincingly played as the same notes arrived at by a gut-level, emotional feeling to play those particular sounds.

http://www.iwasdoingallright.com/ear_training/184/

What about that first A- chord, would you see Dorian also ?

LW,

Don't feel bad. This course is VERY advanced.
A very smart teacher told me that beginner improvise with emotion and feeling, but as they advance, they learn to apply all those rules they have accumulated over the years.

That's not to say that everyone plays with guide lines. In fact, I'd bet that many of the greatest musicians wouldn't even know what they are.

I'm pretty sure Gene Harris didn't care about guide lines. That doesn't mean he didn't approach the music systematically.


The funny comment about Getz was "We don't want to settle for that.". When obviously, we gladly would !!

Yes, what I wouldn't give to have that wonderful lyrical sound of Stan Getz. I recall hearing (from a documentary I saw 20 years ago so hopefully still have my facts straight) that Stan's buddy Chet Baker was the same way, and in fact could barely read music. I often wonder how common having a truly great ear is among jazz musicians, especially among people just starting out. I expect that over time my ear will slowly develop, but meanwhile chordscales give me a leg up on narrowing down the choices of notes.

Elk,
Dave Frank is going to release another YouTube video covering ear training.
He will talk about lennie's method, charlie's, and finally his own.
Charlie Banacos is notorious for being one of the best jazz teacher ever and his ear trainig method is often referred to. However, everything ever taught was often very secretive. Presumably because he tailored his approach to each student.
Anyway, if you ve had the chanve to experience dave's ear, you will, like me, wait for the video to come out.

It is likely going to be painful. ..

I really don't think so, GB is extremly concious of what he's doing/saying/playing . . also as I can recall, from interviews, etc, Carla Bley wrote Ohlos for him, and she is very particular about what scale-sound to use in her tunes.

You're bringing forth some really valid points LW. David Baker told me in a class last summer (yay go Aebersold summer-camps!) that he was wrong in a lot of his early books and that the ear should always prevail.
That said, I really enjoy theory, I like finding out how and why "things" work, but apart from analysing, learning about chord-tones, etc I couldn't really connect it with my ear until I met Pat Harbison last summer (yay go Aebersold summer-camps!) in his theory class that I finally got a method to practice chord/scale relationships.
So I really believe that theory combined with an intuitive ear is the way to go.