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Of all the exercises I have worked throughout the years - Clementi, Czerny, Tausig, Brahms, etc. - none has delivered more useful 'bang for the buck' than simple, old fashioned scales. Their technical value is obvious: the consecutive finger motion is the most common configuration in music written for the piano, and the value of listening carefully to the evenness of scales will refine both hand and ear sensitivity, if practiced with that in intent.
Your last clause seems rather important to me. if practiced with that intent Are scales valuable if not practiced in some specific manner, with some specific intent? Probably not, which is probably why so many put decreased importance on them. Gieseking agreed with you about using scales to increase ear sensitivity. And for that reason he insisted on them being done HS. Whiteside seemed also to agree, but thought beginners needed to wait until ready. Scales for consecutive finger motion would be most valuable if they were a platform for correct motion, including angles of wrist and forearm, rotation, distance, etc. How many teachers actually address that when assigning scales? From the discussions here, probably very few. The assumption is that scales are valuable in themselves regardless of how played, so attention to technique is unnecessary. That's an assumption worth reexamining, maybe. Rachmaninoff practiced them daily almost to the day he died. For the purpose of increasing his listening skills? or his fingering skills? Surely not. If you told me he practiced them daily during his first two years it would be relevant; during his last two years, not so much.
gotta go practice
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Rachmaninoff practiced them daily almost to the day he died. For the purpose of increasing his listening skills? or his fingering skills? Surely not. If you told me he practiced them daily during his first two years it would be relevant; during his last two years, not so much. Every athlete must exercise in his chosen manner to stay in condition, and apparently Rachmaninoff did not consider himself above that necessity. And what musician does not try, with each new day, to increase and refine his acquired assets?
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From Mr. Rachmaninov himself: Personally, I very much believe in scales and arpeggios. What is their advantage? If you know how to play them well, you can continue training, with a genuine technical foundation. Technology devote two o'clock every day for as long as the hands and muscles are not sufficiently trained for the tasks of high performance masterpieces of music - it's not too much. In Russia the best teachers to the goal as early as possible to complete this training period, regardless of when that child health. Indeed, in the six years studying for the most part in doing this. In sixth grade, he had to test for the next grade. This exam is mainly performed by scales and arpeggios. If the student is unable to cope with that, then he is detained in the same class. That's the way a lot of attention was paid to Russian technology, and we have had a reputation for educators virtuoso There you have it. Two hours a day for the first six years. I suspect his scale playing in later years was meditative in nature.
gotta go practice
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I like the way Gary put it:
Not if, but when and how.
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Perhaps my earlier post led some to believe that I don't teach scales at all. I do teach scales. But I'm erring on the minimalist end. I teach scales as they come up in method books, and then if the kids do CM I teach the required technique for each level. For really little kids (under 8) I am being extra judicious when it comes to teaching scales.
This is the same logic that I apply to teaching pedaling. I skip pedaling altogether for little kids unless they have everything else together, and are talented musically. Otherwise I see no rush to teach pedaling until the kids can reach the pedals naturally.
I differ with you a bit on the issue of "reaching the pedals naturally", or perhaps I just introduce pedal earlier. I will adjust seating lower, only temporarily, to develop the concept - if I see no damaging tension happening. Small children are very resilient. I then return them to a higher seating for non-pedal issues. Otherwise I am very close to what you are doing. I have written my own materials, but they are reasonably in sync with most of the better methods. In general I think it is bad to hammer concepts before they can be applied.
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Of all the exercises I have worked throughout the years - Clementi, Czerny, Tausig, Brahms, etc. - none has delivered more useful 'bang for the buck' than simple, old fashioned scales. Rachmaninoff practiced them daily almost to the day he died. Their technical value is obvious: the consecutive finger motion is the most common configuration in music written for the piano, and the value of listening carefully to the evenness of scales will refine both hand and ear sensitivity, if practiced with that in intent.
And scales are the basis of harmony, so one cannot be too familiar with key signatures and every type of chord and harmonic progression. No musician can function very well without a comfortable familiarity with the building blocks of music.
I cannot name one major pianist in history who did not master scales, arpeggios, etc. at an early age, nor can I name one major piano teacher in history who dismissed scales as irrelevant. Any so-called teacher who dismisses the importance of scales should themselves be dismissed, and promptly.
It is true that after achieving world fame, both Leopold Godowsky and Wladimir Horowitz did not practice scales daily as they had in their youth, but instead, invented exercises tailored to their personal needs. One hardly needs to argue with that, given the level at which these two super-technicians worked, but they had long since mastered their scales, arpeggios, octaves, double notes, etc., while they were young students.
No exercise should be engaged if it does not deliver a tangible result - time is too precious. Scales deliver very tangible results by upgrading technique and enhancing musicianship. For a pianist to not learn scales early on would be like a mathematician who learns addition but not multiplication - the idea is incomprehensible. Just be careful that you do not wrongfully assume that teacher A or B or C is dismissing scales as unimportant because that teacher does not always have time to cover them to the extent that teacher D or E believes is best in a perfect world.
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Your last clause seems rather important to me. if practiced with that intent Are scales valuable if not practiced in some specific manner, with some specific intent? Probably not, which is probably why so many put decreased importance on them. Correct. As a T-bone player you are aware that practicing scales, over and over, if the slide technique is not right and the positions are not right and the notes are not in tune, is purely destructive.
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Gary D - my daughter's teacher teaches them as they come up in music. Sometimes she assigns a new one just because (usually though it turns out she has a plan and they come up quickly).
She doesn't play all the scales every day. She just practices the ones listed in her log book. It might mean some are over and done with quickly and others get more practice.
I think it odd that the teacher doesn't give a more detailed reason. When approached that they were needed for jazz, was she more in the camp of "she needs to focus on HER lessons more before starting something new." It's hard to understand why she was not willing to compromise. How long are the lessons? How many hours practice does she do each day?
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Just be careful that you do not wrongfully assume that teacher A or B or C is dismissing scales as unimportant because that teacher does not always have time to cover them to the extent that teacher D or E believes is best in a perfect world.
Taking my cue from the original message, a teacher dismissing scales as "a waste of time" outside of music rather misses the point since scales are the fabric of music itself. Naturally, any good teacher will deduce what material to introduce to a given student at the appropriate time of their development.
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Just be careful that you do not wrongfully assume that teacher A or B or C is dismissing scales as unimportant because that teacher does not always have time to cover them to the extent that teacher D or E believes is best in a perfect world.
Taking my cue from the original message, a teacher dismissing scales as "a waste of time" outside of music rather misses the point since scales are the fabric of music itself. Naturally, any good teacher will deduce what material to introduce to a given student at the appropriate time of their development. I'm not sure the teacher has been correctly quoted. Perhaps yes, perhaps no. I have made such strong statements when irritated. It usually happens when Mom or Dad, after asking me to teach, begins to second-guess me and make "suggestions" that are really more like interference. I might say "waste of time at this moment", but that would mean something very different. I still say it is a matter of when and how. And when we talk about Rachmaninov, we need to remember that an hour a day practice on scales, by itself a great idea, might be more than a child practices in two or three days.
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And when we talk about Rachmaninov, we need to remember that an hour a day practice on scales, by itself a great idea, might be more than a child practices in two or three days. We are in concurrence on that matter for certain. What distresses me on this subject is when a prospective student auditions with me playing a Beethoven sonata, or various Chopin etudes, up to tempo and with earnest musical expression, but only a vague idea what the key signature is, no comprehension of harmony whatsoever, wretched fingering, bizarre hand positions, no rhythmic control, and so forth. This happens too often. These young students, usually between 12 to 20 years of age, have been severely cheated out of good instruction for years. And, of course, they never were taught to play scales - that goes without saying. I am not upset with those students of their own account, of course, they may be exceedingly talented and industrious, but I am exasperated with the previous 'teachers' who let them get that far down the road with no decent guidance. What in the world went on during those lessons? And it is so very, very arduous to then put a foundation underneath their feet since they are already running fast and have little interest in learning how to walk.
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Your last clause seems rather important to me. if practiced with that intent Are scales valuable if not practiced in some specific manner, with some specific intent? Probably not, which is probably why so many put decreased importance on them. Correct. As a T-bone player you are aware that practicing scales, over and over, if the slide technique is not right and the positions are not right and the notes are not in tune, is purely destructive. Quite right. Practice doesn't make perfect, it merely makes permanent; and I have yet to find any exercise I cannot do incorrectly.
gotta go practice
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What distresses me on this subject is when a prospective student auditions with me playing a Beethoven sonata, or various Chopin etudes, up to tempo and with earnest musical expression, but only a vague idea what the key signature is, no comprehension of harmony whatsoever, wretched fingering, bizarre hand positions, no rhythmic control, and so forth.
I call students who play well but have no idea what is going on in the music well-trained robots. Some of them do have a sense of interpretation, but it is based on instinct. Regardless, teaching is horrendously incomplete. But you are talking about something much worse. You are talking about horrible rhythm and terrible physical habits. Scales will not automatically correct those things. Scales have to be taught in a careful, analytical manner. Quite obviously the kind of sloppy, third-rate teachers who work in the manner you just described are going to assign scales from a book and will not explain how they work, technique involved, many other things. So what you are talking about is in general terrible teaching. Not learning scales is just a symptom.
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"...My teacher said learning music without knowing scales compares learning language without knowing the alphabet..."
...or learning to speak without using the tongue. A few hilarious and dreadful moments of example might give a rebellious young student cause for pause, or help them past the tension and resistance they feel at not being immediately able to manage a challenging feat of coordination.
How amazing that a piano teacher would characterize this essential skill as a waste of time. However, convincing a young student of their value by giving understandable reasons and examples of what the scales can do for them, is valid enough... as is, giving them a workable technique for learning them. It can be difficult and challenging for a young pianist. Using examples from the literature to help them to understand that the discoveries of interval, tonality and scale (and the keyboard itself, not to mention notation, and even fingering) are works of genius, might breathe some life into the subject. But it takes a special kind of teacher to put these things across.
But, I'm told that many university geology departments no longer teach stratigraphy. In the end, it will be necessary to reinvent (or rediscover it), when someone figures out that even with all the satellites in the world, some features can still only be read from the ground.
In the meantime, Alfred's edition of Willard Palmer's Scales, Chords, Arpeggions and Cadences has a page of quotations--- right at the front of the book--- from some great performers, regarding how they view the matter. It is not necessarily my favorite book, but it's worth the price for that single page alone.
Clef
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[So what you are talking about is in general terrible teaching. Not learning scales is just a symptom. Yes, I am expanding the issue beyond the parameters of scale playing. However, in each case I have encountered of this type, they had flimsy or non-existant knowledge of key signatures and scale playing.
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Her "regular teacher" doesn't know anything about jazz. Her answer may make some sense for a classical student (not really, though, as referring back to the key signature to know what sharps and flats to play isn't much of a way to read music - even a classical player needs to know "I'm in A flat" - and exactly what A flat looks like.
The jazz player, however, needs an absolutely thorough knowledge of scales - not just the Majors, ultimately, but the modes - Dorian, Mixolydian, etc., as well. If you haven't had enough replies yet, post this in Pianist Corner - Non Classical. They'll let you know.
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[So what you are talking about is in general terrible teaching. Not learning scales is just a symptom. Yes, I am expanding the issue beyond the parameters of scale playing. However, in each case I have encountered of this type, they had flimsy or non-existent knowledge of key signatures and scale playing. I agree with you. We are talking about something huge here, far larger than scales. Someone mentioned Rachmaninov. Rachmaninov also used chromatic scales extensively. To give an example of what I was getting at, my high school teacher had all students learn scales i 12 keys, major, minor (harmonic, natural, minor) but never mentioned how to play a chromatic scale. My technique was crippled using the 31 31 321 thing, never having been told about using 4321321 and so on. My high school teacher also told me I was "tense", but had NO idea WHY. I was left to work that out on my own and with the help of other fine teachers that I met later. There is no end to this. If I have a student who has interest in scales, who practices enough for me to teach them, I don't just teach scales. I teach the thinking behind them, structures, position of hands, how the fingers cross, angle of hands, angle of elbows, problems when the elbows go in and out with thumb turns, why both hands play scales coming in easier than going out.
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This thread has taken an interesting turn. One would think that the points being made by Gary and Jonathon would be common knowledge among teachers, but the reality is that it isn't. Focusing in on, and careful listening to, the tones produced by the instrument as you play, is actually a very difficult task. Helping students learn to do this is paramount, regardless of the type of music the student wishes to play. This isn't a "classical" thing. It's what differentiates the artist from the hack (mechanical player) regardless of genre.
And students must be able to do this if they are to make music.
FWIW, I don't believe we can start the listening process too soon or too young. And it is the primary reason I advocate that a teacher work out of a studio with two instruments as soon as they can financially manage to do so. Playing A/B comparisons for students is greatly hampered with only one instrument at your disposal. Students can grasp the differences fairly quickly if they are exposed to them often enough.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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Very interesting thread! I noticed that nobody sided with the teacher of the original poster's daughter. So I am the first! ...The regular teacher went on to explain that it's better to learn pieces that contain lots of scale passages - like Bach. Basically she said that practicing scales outside of a musical context was a bit of a waste of time. In short she wouldn't agree to teacher my daughter her scales. OK... What do you think? I totally agree with this teacher on scales. Recently I discussed this topic with my older friend, very distinguished music educator and piano clinician who previously taught at the Royal Conservatory of Music and currently teaches at the University of Toronto. She agreed that there are much better things to do then practicing scales. Instead of scales it would be much more beneficial to assign the students lots of studies and technically challenging pieces. Instead of spending hours of mechanical exercises her students use that valuable practice time for the activities that develop their creativity and musicianship while improving their piano technique and acquiring new repertoire at the same time. The major problem with practicing lots of scales is that it goes contrary to the fundamental goal of piano performance which is the revealing of the emotional content of the musical composition. In my opinion, no matter what kind of music your student is studying it should always have deep core emotional content. One does not need to play soulless scales for hours every day. On the contrary, playing lots of dry and boring exercises develops a boring and mechanical performing style. When I was a music college student I was taught to listen my own playing very intensely. The physical accommodations were supposed to arrive from within as a result of the desire to re-create on the piano the sound you create at first in your mind. I believe it is the right approach. Also helpful were exercises my teacher and later myself were creating out of difficult places of my current pieces. All the benefits of playing scales listed in the previous posts could be achieved while studying musically and emotionally engaging repertoire. It is very rare case when a child likes playing scales. Most of them hate scales. Forcing a child (especially a young one) to play hours of scales daily is very often a sure way to lose him or her as a student. It might be interesting for teachers who do not teach scales, and think they are a waste of time, to post their reasoning and experience here. I do not understand this approach at all. I cannot claim that I do not teach scales. Unfortunately, (because of the RCM curriculum) I have no choice but get my students to prepare tons and tons of scales for the practical examinations. RCM has totally overwhelming scale and arpeggio requirements which are in my view completely useless. All these scales separated by third, sixth, tenth and so on student will probably never encounter in his/her real piano repertoire. What a waste of time! If one wants to master double notes he/she should study Thirds by Chopin or Feux Follets by Liszt. I never encountered someone who got proficient with double notes by studying double note scales... I cannot name one major pianist in history who did not master scales, arpeggios, etc. at an early age, nor can I name one major piano teacher in history who dismissed scales as irrelevant. Any so-called teacher who dismisses the importance of scales should themselves be dismissed, and promptly. Unfortunately, I am not a major piano teacher (though I managed to win an international piano competition myself and my students are doing quite well). So I guess I am falling into the category of 'so-called' teachers. But with the example of the major pianist - it's easy! Russian born (with German roots) pianist Sviatoslav Richter could be a good enough example of a renowned pianist who did not studied scales. He talks on this subject in the Monsaingeon's biographical film 'Richter: The Enigma'. Not playing scales did not prevent him from achieving amazing virtuosity. Instead of wasting hours on mechanical exercises he spent the valuable time on developing his vast repertoire. Or may be Richter also should be promptly dismissed as a 'so-called' pianist??
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Jonathan adds to the chat with ...
“I cannot name one major pianist in history who did not master scales, arpeggios, etc. at an early ageâ€
Chopin used to play Bach.
Regards btb
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