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Musicians need to learn to listen to their own playing.


John

. . . I would never require a 9-yo to know all the major scales, but I can see how for jazz it would be essential, especially if they will be working off lead sheets . . .

"I just teach whatever is in the method books."

How ghoulishly boring!

The whole reason for teaching scales is to make sure on finger dexterity and NOT RUN OUT OF FINGERS in completing a passage.

btb, AZNpiano is a very high quality and successful teacher (I've heard a number of his students perform and they are uniformly well prepared), and I respect his opinion while disagreeing with it. He obviously achieves the same goals by other means.

Of all the exercises I have worked throughout the years - Clementi, Czerny, Tausig, Brahms, etc. - none has delivered more useful 'bang for the buck' than simple, old fashioned scales. Their technical value is obvious: the consecutive finger motion is the most common configuration in music written for the piano, and the value of listening carefully to the evenness of scales will refine both hand and ear sensitivity, if practiced with that in intent.

if practiced with that intent

Rachmaninoff practiced them daily almost to the day he died.

Rachmaninoff practiced them daily almost to the day he died.

For the purpose of increasing his listening skills? or his fingering skills? Surely not. If you told me he practiced them daily during his first two years it would be relevant; during his last two years, not so much.

Personally, I very much believe in scales and arpeggios. What is their advantage? If you know how to play them well, you can continue training, with a genuine technical foundation. Technology devote two o'clock every day for as long as the hands and muscles are not sufficiently trained for the tasks of high performance masterpieces of music - it's not too much. In Russia the best teachers to the goal as early as possible to complete this training period, regardless of when that child health. Indeed, in the six years studying for the most part in doing this. In sixth grade, he had to test for the next grade. This exam is mainly performed by scales and arpeggios. If the student is unable to cope with that, then he is detained in the same class. That's the way a lot of attention was paid to Russian technology, and we have had a reputation for educators virtuoso

Perhaps my earlier post led some to believe that I don't teach scales at all. I do teach scales. But I'm erring on the minimalist end. I teach scales as they come up in method books, and then if the kids do CM I teach the required technique for each level. For really little kids (under 8) I am being extra judicious when it comes to teaching scales.

This is the same logic that I apply to teaching pedaling. I skip pedaling altogether for little kids unless they have everything else together, and are talented musically. Otherwise I see no rush to teach pedaling until the kids can reach the pedals naturally.

Of all the exercises I have worked throughout the years - Clementi, Czerny, Tausig, Brahms, etc. - none has delivered more useful 'bang for the buck' than simple, old fashioned scales. Rachmaninoff practiced them daily almost to the day he died. Their technical value is obvious: the consecutive finger motion is the most common configuration in music written for the piano, and the value of listening carefully to the evenness of scales will refine both hand and ear sensitivity, if practiced with that in intent.

And scales are the basis of harmony, so one cannot be too familiar with key signatures and every type of chord and harmonic progression. No musician can function very well without a comfortable familiarity with the building blocks of music.

I cannot name one major pianist in history who did not master scales, arpeggios, etc. at an early age, nor can I name one major piano teacher in history who dismissed scales as irrelevant. Any so-called teacher who dismisses the importance of scales should themselves be dismissed, and promptly.

It is true that after achieving world fame, both Leopold Godowsky and Wladimir Horowitz did not practice scales daily as they had in their youth, but instead, invented exercises tailored to their personal needs. One hardly needs to argue with that, given the level at which these two super-technicians worked, but they had long since mastered their scales, arpeggios, octaves, double notes, etc., while they were young students.

No exercise should be engaged if it does not deliver a tangible result - time is too precious. Scales deliver very tangible results by upgrading technique and enhancing musicianship. For a pianist to not learn scales early on would be like a mathematician who learns addition but not multiplication - the idea is incomprehensible.

Your last clause seems rather important to me.

Are scales valuable if not practiced in some specific manner, with some specific intent? Probably not, which is probably why so many put decreased importance on them.

Gary D - my daughter's teacher teaches them as they come up in music. Sometimes she assigns a new one just because (usually though it turns out she has a plan and they come up quickly).

She doesn't play all the scales every day. She just practices the ones listed in her log book. It might mean some are over and done with quickly and others get more practice.

I think it odd that the teacher doesn't give a more detailed reason. When approached that they were needed for jazz, was she more in the camp of "she needs to focus on HER lessons more before starting something new." It's hard to understand why she was not willing to compromise.

Just be careful that you do not wrongfully assume that teacher A or B or C is dismissing scales as unimportant because that teacher does not always have time to cover them to the extent that teacher D or E believes is best in a perfect world.

Taking my cue from the original message, a teacher dismissing scales as "a waste of time" outside of music rather misses the point since scales are the fabric of music itself. Naturally, any good teacher will deduce what material to introduce to a given student at the appropriate time of their development.

And when we talk about Rachmaninov, we need to remember that an hour a day practice on scales, by itself a great idea, might be more than a child practices in two or three days.

Correct. As a T-bone player you are aware that practicing scales, over and over, if the slide technique is not right and the positions are not right and the notes are not in tune, is purely destructive.

What distresses me on this subject is when a prospective student auditions with me playing a Beethoven sonata, or various Chopin etudes, up to tempo and with earnest musical expression, but only a vague idea what the key signature is, no comprehension of harmony whatsoever, wretched fingering, bizarre hand positions, no rhythmic control, and so forth.

[So what you are talking about is in general terrible teaching. Not learning scales is just a symptom.

Yes, I am expanding the issue beyond the parameters of scale playing. However, in each case I have encountered of this type, they had flimsy or non-existent knowledge of key signatures and scale playing.

...The regular teacher went on to explain that it's better to learn pieces that contain lots of scale passages - like Bach. Basically she said that practicing scales outside of a musical context was a bit of a waste of time. In short she wouldn't agree to teacher my daughter her scales. OK... What do you think?

It might be interesting for teachers who do not teach scales, and think they are a waste of time, to post their reasoning and experience here. I do not understand this approach at all.

I cannot name one major pianist in history who did not master scales, arpeggios, etc. at an early age, nor can I name one major piano teacher in history who dismissed scales as irrelevant. Any so-called teacher who dismisses the importance of scales should themselves be dismissed, and promptly.

Forcing a child (especially a young one) to play hours of scales daily is very often a sure way to lose him or her as a student.

Jonathan adds to the chat with ...

“I cannot name one major pianist in history
who did not master scales, arpeggios, etc. at an early age”

Chopin used to play Bach.

Regards btb

My 9 year old daughter has been doing piano about five years now. She’s done well... I arranged to sign her up for lessons this summer with a well know jazz pianist/teacher. The jazz teacher requested that she comes to first lesson knowing all the major scales.

Her "regular teacher" doesn't know anything about jazz. Her answer may make some sense for a classical student (not really, though, as referring back to the key signature to know what sharps and flats to play isn't much of a way to read music - even a classical player needs to know "I'm in A flat" - and exactly what A flat looks like.

The jazz player, however, needs an absolutely thorough knowledge of scales - not just the Majors, ultimately, but the modes - Dorian, Mixolydian, etc., as well. If you haven't had enough replies yet, post this in Pianist Corner - Non Classical. They'll let you know.

Very interesting thread! I noticed that nobody sided with the teacher of the original poster's daughter. So I am the first!

I totally agree with this teacher on scales. Recently I discussed this topic with my older friend, very distinguished music educator and piano clinician who previously taught at the Royal Conservatory of Music and currently teaches at the University of Toronto.

She agreed that there are much better things to do then practicing scales. Instead of scales it would be much more beneficial to assign the students lots of studies and technically challenging pieces. Instead of spending hours of mechanical exercises her students use that valuable practice time for the activities that develop their creativity and musicianship while improving their piano technique and acquiring new repertoire at the same time.

The major problem with practicing lots of scales is that it goes contrary to the fundamental goal of piano performance which is the revealing of the emotional content of the musical composition. In my opinion, no matter what kind of music your student is studying it should always have deep core emotional content. One does not need to play soulless scales for hours every day. On the contrary, playing lots of dry and boring exercises develops a boring and mechanical performing style.

When I was a music college student I was taught to listen my own playing very intensely. The physical accommodations were supposed to arrive from within as a result of the desire to re-create on the piano the sound you create at first in your mind. I believe it is the right approach. Also helpful were exercises my teacher and later myself were creating out of difficult places of my current pieces.

All the benefits of playing scales listed in the previous posts could be achieved while studying musically and emotionally engaging repertoire. It is very rare case when a child likes playing scales. Most of them hate scales.

Forcing a child (especially a young one) to play hours of scales daily is very often a sure way to lose him or her as a student.



I cannot claim that I do not teach scales. Unfortunately, (because of the RCM curriculum) I have no choice but get my students to prepare tons and tons of scales for the practical examinations. RCM has totally overwhelming scale and arpeggio requirements which are in my view completely useless. All these scales separated by third, sixth, tenth and so on student will probably never encounter in his/her real piano repertoire. What a waste of time!

If one wants to master double notes he/she should study Thirds by Chopin or Feux Follets by Liszt. I never encountered someone who got proficient with double notes by studying double note scales...


Unfortunately, I am not a major piano teacher (though I managed to win an international piano competition myself and my students are doing quite well). So I guess I am falling into the category of 'so-called' teachers.

But with the example of the major pianist - it's easy! Russian born (with German roots) pianist Sviatoslav Richter could be a good enough example of a renowned pianist who did not studied scales. He talks on this subject in the Monsaingeon's biographical film 'Richter: The Enigma'. Not playing scales did not prevent him from achieving amazing virtuosity. Instead of wasting hours on mechanical exercises he spent the valuable time on developing his vast repertoire.

Or may be Richter also should be promptly dismissed as a 'so-called' pianist??

I have a feeling there is some misunderstanding about what the teacher has asked you to do. I think that a teacher telling a parent to teach their child all the major scales, means that you teach the child the key signatures so that the child can write the scales.

"Knowing the scales" is quite different from playing the scales fluently, and is more suitable to what a parent wanting to jump start lessons could manage.

Good news, since I originally posted this, she has learned all 12 major scales with standard fingering (in C, she can do hands together and the rest of the keys she is doing just RH, one octave) I did have to bride her a bit... I told her that when she learned her major scales, could play them in tempo and with correct fingering, she'd get a trip to the water park. Guess where I'm going this weekend?

Your daughter is to be congratulated for some major progress in short order. However, so you are aware of the varying standards, in my studio, this would not be considered acceptable, for a 5th year student. Such a student would be doing 3 octaves, in triplets, hands together and separately, at a metronome setting of 72 per beat (every 3 notes in this case). This, incidentally, is not an unusually high standard.

I noticed that Jonathan Baker offered an advice to promptly dismiss colleagues who have a different teaching method. I also noticed that nobody objected. Does it mean everybody here agree with Jonathan?

Your daughter is to be congratulated for some major progress in short order. However, so you are aware of the varying standards, in my studio, this would not be considered acceptable, for a 5th year student. Such a student would be doing 3 octaves, in triplets, hands together and separately, at a metronome setting of 72 per beat (every 3 notes in this case). This, incidentally, is not an unusually high standard.

I'm waiting for the video of the dogs playing their scales!

"...I told her that when she learned her major scales, could play them in tempo and with correct fingering, she'd get a trip to the water park..."

As the sages say. You can catch more flies with sugar...

The very same technique works like a charm when training my dogs, who will do just about anything for half a weenie.

The same works for groups of kids in the classroom. They stop being curious in the subject and wanting to learn, and go after the rewards and feel like failures if they can't reach the bar. Reversing that is a monumental task. People aren't dogs.

"...They stop being curious in the subject and wanting to learn, and go after the rewards and feel like failures if they can't reach the bar..."

They are failures--- what is your point?

balalaika -

Regarding scales: my goal with younger piano students (I am referring to the 5 - 11 year old category) is to develop, lesson-by-lesson, easy familiarity with key signatures and their corresponding scales and the simple triads built on those scales.

Anyways, besides the issue with scales, I'm quite happy with her regular teacher. She has her students very active in recitals, competitions, and festivals. Many of her students (including my daughter) received "All State" and the outstanding rating. Many of the judges are recognized names in piano education some of them are composers of music that a lot the teachers here use in their programs. she was a good personal friend of the author of "a Dozen a Day"- a book she does use. In short, her teacher is well respected and known in this area.

RH scale playing (dot for thumb fold)

C#major
1 2 3 4.1 2 3 4 (quite a stretch)

etc.

balalaika -

Your tumultuous frustration bordering on hysteria, and volcanic rage, have little or nothing to do with what I have written. I wish you the best of luck, and I will leave you to yourself. Ciao.
JB

I cannot recommend a piano teacher who is dismissive of practical skills such as scales / that lead into chords / that lead into harmonic progressions, much less recommend a teacher who is in a burlesque rage against them.

The student is however nine years old. The teacher who knows her well may be making decisions based on what she thinks a very young student needs at this point in her development. She may be right or wrong, but she isn't necessarily incompetent.

nothing much more than the one trillionth recitation of Fur Elise

Classics get played. Some say too much. But I never hear anyone suggest taking "To Kill a Mockingbird" off school reading lists (yet perhaps teachers tire of this one too).

I hate to say this but:
"Why was 'To Kill a Mockingbird' banned from schools?"

Hi Keystring,

I definitely picked the wrong example. It is disappointing to see this book has been banned.

It's actually an amazing Bagatelle if played correctly.

balalaika -

How do you expect a student to become familiar with a variety of Seventh chords if they do not have an easy and handy familiarity with common scales? How could anyone begin to get a grip on even a tiny slice of the vast panorama of jazz at the piano (in this case) without a familiarity with both? I do not think you can, or want, to address such practical skill-building...

There are many ways of being a musician-pianist. Not everyone spends all their days wallowing in the voluptuous hallucinations of a Skryabin Vers la flame. Some may be working with an orchestra, whether classical or broadway, or they may work in a church or synagogue, or they may be a collaborative pianist with singers and instrumentalists, or work in a nightclub, and so forth. I cannot know for certain which roads my students will ultimately travel, but I do require of myself that I give them the foundation of practical skills that will allow them to move with relative ease into any of these avenues.

I cannot recommend a piano teacher who is dismissive of practical skills such as scales / that lead into chords / that lead into harmonic progressions, much less recommend a teacher who is in a burlesque rage against them. I did not say such teachers should be publicly executed (LOL) nor would I publicly name them, but I will silently skip over them and recommend someone else when consulted on the matter.

My focus is on providing a thorough music education for students, not personal 'job protection' for lazy teachers.

Your tumultuous frustration bordering on hysteria, and volcanic rage, have little or nothing to do with what I have written. I wish you the best of luck, and I will leave you to yourself. Ciao.

JB