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#2091479 - 05/29/13 03:58 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: knotty]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
Phrygian has a distinctive sound (dark and brooding) and so does lydian (light and majestic), basically almost opposite sounding... It's beyond me how somebody really listening can hear lydian in the tune at that point ... it's sort of like saying sad sounds happy...

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#2091483 - 05/29/13 04:03 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
With his rushed schedule I think Gary must have simply forgotten to mention it's A phrygian (Bb/A) and that you can think of the Bb lydian scale when soloing (or the F major scale, or any of the 7 modes in F major for that matter).

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#2091520 - 05/29/13 05:04 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Have you seen this? Gary's solo on Green Dolphin St, transcribed by a participant.
https://class.coursera.org/improvisation-001/forum/thread?thread_id=1419
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2091931 - 05/30/13 05:35 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
For some reason or the other, I don't really (and never did) dig this scale/guidetones etc. thing... Why not? Because there is a lot of thinking going which on distracts me from making the music and why think about a scale if all notes are available.

I would rather approach improv the way like, how Gary tells, Stan Getz does.
"He had never studies music theory much, didn't know much about chords, he just knew the basic triad for each chord symbol that he saw. He would start with those notes and than use his ear to find other notes and he would make mistakes sometimes, but he got very good at correcting them by sliding into the next note to make it sound ok and so on."

Since I'm never going to be a professional Jazz piano player, and do not have the time pro's have... Sometimes I think, isn't it smarter just to concentrate on the ear and learn how to play the melody's straight from your mind without thinking in scales etc. Isn't that what Improv is about in the end? Do pro's play like "o here is D dorian, E altered, A symmetrical diminished" or just "go with the flow" without really thinking about scales.

I'm thinking about a way to try playing the line as you hear it in your mind by for example: hear the changes (and melody).. than stop playing the changes (pause), sing the melody that just came up and learn it with your fingers and play it over the changes. Again and again until you can almost nail (any) melody in your head correctly immediately without having to pause..

Maybe I'm just not patient enough... but hope you guys understand where I'm coming from.

EDIT:
This is almost exactly like how I think:
Greg Fishman: Some students learn to play a diminished whole-tone scale when they see an altered dominant chord, and so they are going to play it because it is the "correct" thing to do. The problem with that is that it's meaningless if they arrive at those note choices by theory alone, and not by ear. I call this phenomenon "empty note playing." These are notes without specific harmonic intent. The notes may be technically correct, but they won't be as convincingly played as the same notes arrived at by a gut-level, emotional feeling to play those particular sounds.

http://www.iwasdoingallright.com/ear_training/184/


Edited by Lost Woods (05/30/13 05:45 AM)

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#2091976 - 05/30/13 08:19 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: rintincop
With his rushed schedule I think Gary must have simply forgotten to mention it's A phrygian (Bb/A) and that you can think of the Bb lydian scale when soloing (or the F major scale, or any of the 7 modes in F major for that matter).


What about that first A- chord, would you see Dorian also ?

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#2091979 - 05/30/13 08:25 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
LW,

Don't feel bad. This course is VERY advanced.
A very smart teacher told me that beginner improvise with emotion and feeling, but as they advance, they learn to apply all those rules they have accumulated over the years.

That's not to say that everyone plays with guide lines. In fact, I'd bet that many of the greatest musicians wouldn't even know what they are.

I'm pretty sure Gene Harris didn't care about guide lines. That doesn't mean he didn't approach the music systematically.


The funny comment about Getz was "We don't want to settle for that.". When obviously, we gladly would !!

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#2092031 - 05/30/13 10:29 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Elkayem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Yes, what I wouldn't give to have that wonderful lyrical sound of Stan Getz. I recall hearing (from a documentary I saw 20 years ago so hopefully still have my facts straight) that Stan's buddy Chet Baker was the same way, and in fact could barely read music. I often wonder how common having a truly great ear is among jazz musicians, especially among people just starting out. I expect that over time my ear will slowly develop, but meanwhile chordscales give me a leg up on narrowing down the choices of notes.
_________________________
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#2092187 - 05/30/13 01:55 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Elk,
Dave Frank is going to release another YouTube video covering ear training.
He will talk about lennie's method, charlie's, and finally his own.
Charlie Banacos is notorious for being one of the best jazz teacher ever and his ear trainig method is often referred to. However, everything ever taught was often very secretive. Presumably because he tailored his approach to each student.
Anyway, if you ve had the chanve to experience dave's ear, you will, like me, wait for the video to come out.

It is likely going to be painful. ..

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#2092200 - 05/30/13 02:05 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: rintincop]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: rintincop
With his rushed schedule I think Gary must have simply forgotten to mention it's A phrygian (Bb/A) . . .
I really don't think so, GB is extremly concious of what he's doing/saying/playing . . also as I can recall, from interviews, etc, Carla Bley wrote Ohlos for him, and she is very particular about what scale-sound to use in her tunes.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2092206 - 05/30/13 02:15 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Lost Woods]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Lost Woods
For some reason or the other, I don't really (and never did) dig this scale/guidetones etc. thing... Why not? Because there is a lot of thinking going which on distracts me from making the music and why think about a scale if all notes are available. . . .
You're bringing forth some really valid points LW. David Baker told me in a class last summer (yay go Aebersold summer-camps!) that he was wrong in a lot of his early books and that the ear should always prevail.
That said, I really enjoy theory, I like finding out how and why "things" work, but apart from analysing, learning about chord-tones, etc I couldn't really connect it with my ear until I met Pat Harbison last summer (yay go Aebersold summer-camps!) in his theory class that I finally got a method to practice chord/scale relationships.
So I really believe that theory combined with an intuitive ear is the way to go.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2092207 - 05/30/13 02:16 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
Anyway, if you ve had the chanve to experience dave's ear, you will, like me, wait for the video to come out.

It is likely going to be painful. ..
I hear you Knotty.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2092211 - 05/30/13 02:25 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Lost Woods]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Thanks for the link LW. Lot of interesting material to read.
Also I got this tip from the blog: http://www.iwasdoingallright.com/playbyear/iphone/
iPhone or Android, and its free!
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2092255 - 05/30/13 03:41 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Thanks for the link LW. Lot of interesting material to read.
Also I got this tip from the blog: http://www.iwasdoingallright.com/playbyear/iphone/
iPhone or Android, and its free!


No problem:) Thanks for your comments.
Well for android it's not free.. but I'm downloading it right now.. well spend €1,45 (or 2 dollars). Really appreciate someone taking time to make it.

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#2092783 - 05/31/13 10:36 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1520
Dear LW,

I found this paragraph written by jazz trumpet instructor Pat Harbison:

"It is the role of the conscious mind to listen to what's going on around you and to imagine the sound of the missing part. If you are reading music the dots tell you what sounds to imagine. If you are playing a memorized piece it is your memory that supplies the missing part. If you are improvising it is the unconscious creative mind that supplies the missing part. This is all that you should be consciously aware of while playing (when you have achieved a high level of skill). Sing the sound of the missing part in your mind and trust your unconscious mind, nervous system, and muscles to do what you have ordered. Your unconscious mind will do the very best it can based on your present level of skill and experience. We practice fundamentals (chord/scales/arpeggios) in order to store efficient ways to make all of the various sounds we might desire in our unconscious minds as kinesthetic memories. "



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#2092796 - 05/31/13 10:56 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Yay. That's Pat alright (Prof of Jazz studies at Indiana).
He's a great teacher and as I wrote earlier he has a really good method to practice theory and enable it to move from the conscious mind to the intuitive part.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2092991 - 05/31/13 04:25 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Thanks rintin that's a really nice paragraph!

EDIT:
I just read "Learning to improvise - introduction / Learning to improvise - Article links" from the blog I mentioned earlier.

These are some good points why to learn the theory/chord scales:
"LEARNING THE SOUND OF JAZZ
Playing scales, arpeggios, and chord progressions will help train your ear to identify the sound of jazz melodies and harmonies."

"STIMULATES NEW IDEAS
Advanced theory concepts such as chord substitutions and alterations can help players unlock new sounds and directions in their playing. For some people, these ideas are easier to come by when visualized and/or thought of from a mathematical/structured approach."

That's a good point. I can only imagine playing for example a D dorian scale in my mind if I know what it sounds like. So knowing your scales/arpeggio's etc. broadens the horizon.


Edited by Lost Woods (05/31/13 07:48 PM)

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#2094448 - 06/03/13 10:23 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2094522 - 06/03/13 12:32 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Ah Chris... you son of a gun. I was gonna skip this last lesson.

Now I pretty much have to play that blues, don't I?

Well, it is lunch time....

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#2094531 - 06/03/13 12:44 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Alright, here we go.

I got totally surprised by the ending. I had an eye on garage band and I could see it kept going, but then finally it stopped smile. So sorry for the lame ending.
http://snd.sc/11RyasQ


I don't think I will take a stab at the other tune.

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#2094533 - 06/03/13 12:45 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Chris, I will listen after my break...Maybe that will make me want to play that other tune.

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#2094568 - 06/03/13 01:29 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Ahh take a stab at it.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2095090 - 06/04/13 07:39 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: chrisbell]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: chrisbell


Your stuff was really fun to listen to.
Thanks for posting Chris.

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#2095091 - 06/04/13 07:43 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty
Alright, here we go.

I got totally surprised by the ending. I had an eye on garage band and I could see it kept going, but then finally it stopped smile. So sorry for the lame ending.
http://snd.sc/11RyasQ


I don't think I will take a stab at the other tune.



Hey Knots
Your blues had a really strong structure. I liked how you built up to the climax.

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#2095246 - 06/04/13 12:40 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: custard apple]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

Your stuff was really fun to listen to.
Thanks for posting Chris.

Thanks Custard.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2096404 - 06/05/13 05:28 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Nice notes, folks . And it swings. I think if you injected just a tiny bit more energy into the swing you would really have something there. Check Red Garland and Wynton Kelly, the way they make there swing sound lively on a blues at that tempo.
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#2097450 - 06/06/13 10:31 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
Jim Frazee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 392
Loc: Westchester County, New York
Nice playing, Chris but you should have included Gary's head, at least according to the assignment. Me, I sure liked what you did. And, FWIW, here's mine . . .


http://snd.sc/15KG3iS

As DF says,"Seep Kwingin'!"
_________________________
PianoPerfection
Teacher, performer, technician
Westchester County, NY

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#2099362 - 06/09/13 03:06 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Jim Frazee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: Jim Frazee
Nice playing, Chris but you should have included Gary's head, at least according to the assignment. Me, I sure liked what you did.

Thanks.
Though I'm not sure what you mean, in the blues I do play the head that's on the pdf.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2100129 - 06/10/13 07:06 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Any final comments now that it's over?
I enjoyed it and learnt a couple of things I didn't know so for me it was worth the effort.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2100374 - 06/10/13 02:22 PM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: Veelo]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
+1 Chris
Though I skipped the last tune, I did learn a good amount of stuff. Nice class, well worth it.
Thanks for getting me to do it!

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#2100866 - 06/11/13 10:26 AM Re: Berklee improvisation course on Coursera [Re: chrisbell]
Jim Frazee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 392
Loc: Westchester County, New York
Well, I'll be . . . you did play the head (and quite nicely, may I add). thumb I don't know what I was listening to - very strange. Anyway, I did enjoy the course a lot and have lots to work on in my own time. Let's hope there's another! In the evaluation, I wrote that I'd like to see a coursera offering on reharmonization, whole tone series compositions, etc. Whatever they offer, I'll probably sign up.
_________________________
PianoPerfection
Teacher, performer, technician
Westchester County, NY

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