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#2081897 - 05/13/13 12:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
any key? I see you chose only 1 key.
Six keys. Also there's these guidelines for the evaluation:
"The material presented should demonstrate a clear and nuanced understanding of the 6 scales. That the scales were played correctly with rhythmic variation, and fluidity was demonstrated as well."
"The melodic, harmonic, and/or rhythmic material presented in the audio was accurate and fitting and represented the correct tonality of the 6 scales."


Edited by chrisbell (05/13/13 01:03 PM)
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#2081927 - 05/13/13 01:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
I just read this on The Bullet-proof musician site that makes sense: "Art and fear. Specifically, that if we want to be taken seriously as an artist, we must look at the score with our own eyes and our own ears and take a stand. Rather than copying others’ ideas or waiting for others to endorse or support our ideas, we must make our own conclusions about what we see in the music and bring our ideas to life boldly, courageously, and without question or apology.

That even if we don’t know what is “right” or “wrong”, we simply must make some decision and commit to it until we come up with a better idea. That abstaining from making a decision is not an option. Nor is delaying our inquiry into the bigger questions while we obsess about intonation and hide behind technique."
http://www.bulletproofmusician.com/the-most-valuable-lesson-i-learned-from-isaac-stern/
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#2094240 - 06/03/13 12:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
First try of Joy Spring. Both for the band and for me and combined with new players. Tough tune to just wing it. But it didn't turn out too bad. Next time though, I have to learn the head.

Joy Spring
https://www.box.com/s/l3aqg2i37ovoibhio14t

--Recorder was on top of my keyboard pointed at the bass so the balance of instruments is off. So just use your imagination smile



Edited by jazzwee (06/03/13 12:46 AM)
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#2095147 - 06/04/13 09:48 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
A while ago, I learned the head to Joy Spring, which is a good challenge, and I really like the melody. I have to say, however, it's not my favorite tune to improvise on. The A section is just a series of turn arounds, followed by turn arounds a half step higher. I like the bridge, but then back to the turns arounds. It just doesn't seem to trigger much creativity. Do others enjoy improvising on Joy Spring?

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#2095251 - 06/04/13 12:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
I really enjoyed it. It was the first time I played it (above). But I didn't realize that it's often played really uptempo and that's where the challenge is. I haven't learned the head yet but yesterday at our jam a one year jazz student played the head pretty well so I guess it can't be as hard as Inner Urge smile

I'm not usually big on bebop tunes but I've liked this one since before. Maybe because the key changes often enough (which I like). The bass player got a little lost though on the changes on his solo though he stuck on the form.
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#2095272 - 06/04/13 01:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
It is generally played quite up. There is an Oscar Peterson version, however, that is medium tempo and really swings. It's with his early trio, bass, guitar and piano. Check this out, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o68IemokVc.

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#2095297 - 06/04/13 01:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Any of you guys fans of Mulgrew Miller? That was awful that he passed away at only 57. I'm seen him so many times over the years.

He had those Oscar Peterson chops though he played a post-bop style.
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#2095367 - 06/04/13 03:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
Big fan of Mulgrew and saw him several times in Chicago. I've been listening to a lot of his stuff lately (can't recommend Spotify enough if you want to listen to jazz) and find a lot of his playing more modern (in a good way) than I would have expected. One blogger in a write up recommended his solo on Lonnie’s Lament on Joe Lovano’s Quartets Live at the Village Vanguard as one of his best. It is a great solo, and yes, it's available on Spotify.

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#2095400 - 06/04/13 03:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I like joy spring a lot. I think it's one of those times that plays itself.
I practice the head often to keep it handy. It's technically difficult. It's good to work out the fingering for it.
Perhaps more important for us pianists would be learning the intro.
I thought your guitar player did really well.

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#2096750 - 06/06/13 03:52 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3802
Loc: Northern England.
How do I learn this?? Honestly, where does one start? Good isn`t it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJGrz8I3JdU
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#2096776 - 06/06/13 05:23 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: peterws]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1457
Loc: uk south
You need to start an R&B/gospel group thread!

(yes, very nice, I like this style of playing).

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#2097050 - 06/06/13 02:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: dire tonic]
peterws Offline
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Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3802
Loc: Northern England.
I thought ya had to be black to play like that . . .me sun tan`s comin` along, but me playing? . . . I`m just going to study what he`s done in and to this song . . . smokin
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#2097606 - 06/07/13 01:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: peterws]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1457
Loc: uk south
If you were able to figure out the intro to bridge over troubled water you should be able to manage this – apart from that 2nd chord in the verse they’re mostly straight majors, minors and 7ths. I can help if you get stuck.

(but not in the jazz thread..)


Edited by dire tonic (06/07/13 02:09 AM)

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#2097628 - 06/07/13 04:00 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: dire tonic]
peterws Offline
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Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3802
Loc: Northern England.
Sounds like pure jazz to me . . with straight overtones ha ha. Gonna go through this bar by bar . . .
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#2097637 - 06/07/13 04:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1457
Loc: uk south
It's a more or less distant relative of jazz. I think most of the regulars to this group are into rootless chords with decidely jazzy tensions, e.g. a plain major triad is a fairly rare beast.

The second chorus is definitely jazzier but that's going to be a taller order.

Still, if you want to pursue it and if the regulars are happy to embrace it or are interested, why not? (so far, a deathly silence from them).

Best of luck! I'd be interested to know how you get on, anyway.

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#2097649 - 06/07/13 05:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: peterws]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: peterws
How do I learn this?? Honestly, where does one start? Good isn`t it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJGrz8I3JdU


Start with the Beatles songbook (whatever page Let it be is on)
Then add in a few jazz chords and add a few gospel rhythms and a few blues licks and you should be on the way.
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#2099881 - 06/09/13 08:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
Had a trio gig Friday night with a bass and guitar. I love playing in this combination; we had a blast. I spent a lot of time listening to the Oscar Peterson trio when it was guitar and bass in the early 50s. I don't think I really picked anything up but great listening!

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#2099930 - 06/09/13 09:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: jjo
Had a trio gig Friday night with a bass and guitar. I love playing in this combination; we had a blast. I spent a lot of time listening to the Oscar Peterson trio when it was guitar and bass in the early 50s. I don't think I really picked anything up but great listening!


Unusual combination. Hard to make guitars work. My guitar player knows how to lay out.
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#2099934 - 06/09/13 09:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
I was learning the Joy Spring head. All of you said it was difficult. But other than the fact that it was hard to memorize, I didn't have any problems. This is a heck of a lot easier than Inner Urge, and certainly easier than Ceora with all the stretched fingers.

What is the actual difficulty with this? Just curious.
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#2099938 - 06/09/13 09:57 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 646
Loc: Chicago
Jazzwee: On working with a guitar: It's hard if you have another lead instrument like a sax. Then you always have the question of who comps. But when there is no other lead instrument, the guitar comps for you and you comp for him. It works very well.

As for Joy Spring, the hard part to me was that it's played at a fast tempo and you have all those quick trills or grace notes (not sure what you call them). If you play it without all those little trills and at a slower tempo, there is no difficulty.

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#2100002 - 06/09/13 11:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Yeah but how to get a guitar player to lay out on comping and to tone down the volume. Practically impossible. I've played with so many guitar players. I found one that I can tolerate. You're both playing in the same registers so it's a built in conflict.

I have no problem with Sax/Trumpet. They don't comp. They love playing heads. They get their solos. Then they get off the stage.

Well I'm glad I didn't miss anything on Joy Spring. I thought perhaps there was something that I didn't realize. I just learned it so I can't play it fast yet. But at least I can play it.

In contrast, it took me over a month to play a basic version of Inner Urge. And still refining it, months later. This must be the toughest head I've played, especially since it's played at 200bpm with 16ths.

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#2100341 - 06/10/13 01:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hey JW,

Joy Spring is probably in the top 1% of most difficult heads in the RealBook. It's there with Confirmation and Donna Lee I think.
The fact that you can play it with ease only speaks for your skills. But the tune remains one of the tough ones and is called very often. It's a good idea to memorize Powell's intro on this.

I agree with jjo. The difficulty is in the trills. The fingering I worked out makes you play multiple trills on 3 and 4 which is uncomfortable.
Plus, the trills often come right after a hand shift.

The changes are pretty basic, and the tempo is not too up. I can't recall but I would say the original is somewhere around 180. It's also a fun one to play because of all the hits. You can also play the intro after the solos.

Finally, both horn solos on this are absolutely fantastic. Some of the best stuff ever recorded imho. It is difficult for me to believe that the solos were improvised. Having said that, it's generally true for most Brown;s solo, so maybe it was recorded :-).

I think i said it earlier but I thought your guitar player was very good.



On a different note:
Anyone here joining the Chrises in Louisville next month? I can hardly wait. I'm bring my tenor player with me. And I think I need to start working on a tune for the audition. Was gonna do Lennie's Pennies but sometimes they say play "as if you had a trio". So can't do walking bass or stride. Makes it kinda funny since you do have to play solo ....

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#2100368 - 06/10/13 02:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1370
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Gil Evans arrangement is still great (it's Gil on piano) after all these years:

Yeah, looking forward to my two weeks.
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#2100369 - 06/10/13 02:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Riddler Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 628
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I was learning the Joy Spring head. All of you said it was difficult. But other than the fact that it was hard to memorize, I didn't have any problems. This is a heck of a lot easier than Inner Urge, and certainly easier than Ceora with all the stretched fingers.

What is the actual difficulty with this? Just curious.


I also commented on the difficulty of this tune - - not here though, in the piano bar thread. I was remembering that I had to work on those triplets to play them at speed.

However, I think I've had a senior moment here too - the real frustration I was remembering was with Oleo. (I think I was working on both tunes at the same time, and tend to lump them together under the category of bebop tunes.) Anyway, I was under the impression that it would be cool to play the Oleo head with both hands, and maybe it is, I will never know, because my LH declined to participate!

Ed
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#2100370 - 06/10/13 02:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Knotty, I think what has happened is that my chops level went up so fingering issues have disappeared as concerns. So this is not in the difficult range, especially in the 180bpm range. Faster than that -- well -- I'm only played it for a couple of days so I need to really remember. Right now, it's more of a memory issue than technical.

I'm glad because I like the tune and the guitar player on the recording just learned it. He inspired me to pick it up. Learning the head really makes a difference in playing the solo. I can see now that it influences what you play once the head is familiar to your fingers.

BTW I didn't like the piano solo on the recording though. Ho-hum to me.

Another difficult head I keep screwing up is Nardis. My teacher taught me to play a two-handed head long ago and I started to bring this back up again.

Donna Lee -- I've forgotten this again. No one here ever calls it in a jam so my knowledge of this faded.
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#2100379 - 06/10/13 02:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Riddler]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Riddler
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
I was learning the Joy Spring head. All of you said it was difficult. But other than the fact that it was hard to memorize, I didn't have any problems. This is a heck of a lot easier than Inner Urge, and certainly easier than Ceora with all the stretched fingers.

What is the actual difficulty with this? Just curious.


I also commented on the difficulty of this tune - - not here though, in the piano bar thread. I was remembering that I had to work on those triplets to play them at speed.

However, I think I've had a senior moment here too - the real frustration I was remembering was with Oleo. (I think I was working on both tunes at the same time, and tend to lump them together under the category of bebop tunes.) Anyway, I was under the impression that it would be cool to play the Oleo head with both hands, and maybe it is, I will never know, because my LH declined to participate!

Ed



LOL -I tackled Oleo with both hands before too. But I've forgotten. Another one of those bebop tunes that don't get called at a jam. Obviously because of the difficulty.

I have never played Oleo, Donna Lee, Confirmation (actually never played the head on this), or Cherokee at a gig or jam.

Must be a West Coast thing...Maybe it gets called at a different level of players (the "real" players). As it is, I'm the only one that ever calls Giant Steps and everyone cringes when I do. Inner Urge causes a similar reaction.
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#2100381 - 06/10/13 02:26 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Gil Evans arrangement is still great (it's Gil on piano) after all these years:

Yeah, looking forward to my two weeks.


Nice! So sparse yet perfect!
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#2100394 - 06/10/13 02:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
RE: Donna Lee.
I think it's fine to call this, depending on the ability of the person playing the head. You can usually quickly tell whether someone knows donna lee or not. Most Tenor and alto players do, especially if they sound bebop, you can bet they know it. Then they will appreciate you calling it.
Sometimes I like to call Indiana, often played in F instead of Ab. Then if the horn player knows Donna Lee, he'll say let's do Donna lee instead. Tricky me ;-)

RE: Confirmation.
Another tough one with the triplets. Changes are similar to Another You, but in F. Great tune to blow on. Somehow, the bridge works nicely on piano, at least for me, but I think it is difficult for horn players, most kind of mess it up.
This is called quite often.

Re: Joy Spring.
Also depends on the instrument. I often play with a vibes player and he enjoys playing the head on this. Trills moving up and down the keyboard are probably less of a challenge on vibes than on piano.
The melody very much outlines the changes so I find it easy to memorize. Just hard to play. They should plug our 2 brains together and we'd be killin' wink

Re: Cherokee.
Now there's an easy head. It's all Bb Major pentatonic, except the bridge which simply outlines the chords. So that one if learned in no time. The tempo, well that's something else smile Take it at the Basie tempo.

Re: Nardis.
Surprising, I find this head quite easy. Again, I think it falls nicely on top of the chords so not too hard to memorize.

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#2100471 - 06/10/13 04:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1732
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Some tunes that are variations off Confirmation are Trane's "26-2" and to a lesser extent, Jarrett's "Bop-Be". Both are fun tunes to play on.. cool
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#2100526 - 06/10/13 06:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7099
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Re: Nardis.
Surprising, I find this head quite easy. Again, I think it falls nicely on top of the chords so not too hard to memorize.



If you just play treble melody line, it is easy. I'm talking about a two-handed block chord head. It's a variation I learned that sounds good. Lots of unisons too.

I have to improve on my heads. Playing too often with horn players.

I don't have a problem with the bebop tunes, like Donna Lee. It's just that the LA players here don't seem to ever want to call it. In general, I don't a lot of calls (probably never) of Rhythm Changes and similar tunes.

I get 10x the calls for the Bossas. Like I said, I think it's a West Coast preference thing. Which is too bad since I don't get a chance to work on those tunes much. So which also means I never work on those heads.
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